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In the Name of God بسم الله
co2017

Jesus Christ said I am the Truth. Why is truth ignored?

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On 3/1/2018 at 3:41 AM, IbnSina said:

Wow, I did not know that, that not believing in trinity, even as a Christian, would send you to hell. Thats news to me.

So a theoretical question, what if you believe in trinity but kill 100 innocent people during your life time but go to a priest and confess this sin, will you go to heaven as compared to a Christian who did not believe in trinity but saved 100 innocent people?

I grew up Baptist. Like most kids I didn't listen much but we had the basics. Life changed at the age of 13 when we moved from small town to big city, two blocks from a Baptist church. They had a young people study group, which, of course, I had to join. It was rather in depth and came with homework. 

A couple years in, the subject of alcohol came up in the church. My Father was nobody in the church, but when he took opportunity to say his piece, they didn't like him anymore. Two deacons left the church. They urged my Father to do so also. I stayed because we had a good young peoples group, I was a leader in the Christian Service Brigade, (Christian boy scouts), busy with the church almost every night.

At around 16 I started squinting at the difference between scripture and the message we were supposed to derive from it. Questions were often deflected by "A deeper meaning that we'll get into later", which never happened ... at 18 I had four elders in my house, and a one on one with a Lieutenant Colonel of the Canadian Forces, military, (known for interrogation), on my back because others were asking my questions.  I had to be a member or lose the brigade, (local rule not CSB rule), which included adapting their beliefs, then was told I was going to the wrong church. I agreed. The church was "saddened" I had turned against them.

My Father was in his church, (of 30 some years) when the subject "Jesus is God" (in your face), came up. My Father told him it's not what the Bible says. The teacher yelled out, "If you don't believe Jesus is God you are going to hell!" They stripped him of his membership and he is no longer allowed to participate in the services or studies. He's still allowed to attend, just can't say anything. No hostilities, other than a few who used to talk to him don't any more. 

That is the main stream belief. If you don't believe it, you will cause trouble. 

Here's the problem as I see it.
If you are building a religion you need rules to be successful. Basic method, get them to agree to a belief in the god you are creating. Use the metaphor of nice peaceful sheep smothered with love often.  Insist there is no other way, as per unique holy instruction. Instill both sadness and disgust in the sheep for those who are outside the fence. Make the sheep prove they belong by providing hoops and ladders then taking their wool. Form doctrines and discipline to keep them in order, back it up with stories from a pedestal everybody thinks is awesome.     I just covered 1600 years of Christianity. Now the trend is to appease the sheep for the wool. 

To answer your theoretical question.

Mainstream Catholic belief, yes, but they have a much nicer way of presenting it. It includes penance and money in the box, but hey, sins all gone. You can go monthly, weekly, daily...       I really don't know much about them.

Protestants are on their own when it comes to repentance but the same applies. Personally, I believe the above concept is somewhat true but not near that simple and it's not what the Bible says. You can't just say "sorry". Everybody in Canada says sorry. For Protestants, Jesus is the mediator. (not that it's confusing...trinity speaking...).

Honestly, sins are between you and God. There's no use looking for a diversion to forgive you for a sin committed against God. You either go to the highest court or you die wondering. If you sin against a man, you go to that man. If you sin against God, you go to God. You either do it right or don't bother. I believe God will be more merciful with those who were honest about their sin habits than those hypocrites who pretended they were absolved. I said merciful, not necessarily forgiving. 

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On 3/1/2018 at 12:38 PM, Son of Placid said:

I grew up Baptist. Like most kids I didn't listen much but we had the basics. Life changed at the age of 13 when we moved from small town to big city, two blocks from a Baptist church. They had a young people study group, which, of course, I had to join. It was rather in depth and came with homework. 

A couple years in, the subject of alcohol came up in the church. My Father was nobody in the church, but when he took opportunity to say his piece, they didn't like him anymore. Two deacons left the church. They urged my Father to do so also. I stayed because we had a good young peoples group, I was a leader in the Christian Service Brigade, (Christian boy scouts), busy with the church almost every night.

At around 16 I started squinting at the difference between scripture and the message we were supposed to derive from it. Questions were often deflected by "A deeper meaning that we'll get into later", which never happened ... at 18 I had four elders in my house, and a one on one with a Lieutenant Colonel of the Canadian Forces, military, (known for interrogation), on my back because others were asking my questions.  I had to be a member or lose the brigade, (local rule not CSB rule), which included adapting their beliefs, then was told I was going to the wrong church. I agreed. The church was "saddened" I had turned against them.

My Father was in his church, (of 30 some years) when the subject "Jesus is God" (in your face), came up. My Father told him it's not what the Bible says. The teacher yelled out, "If you don't believe Jesus is God you are going to hell!" They stripped him of his membership and he is no longer allowed to participate in the services or studies. He's still allowed to attend, just can't say anything. No hostilities, other than a few who used to talk to him don't any more. 

That is the main stream belief. If you don't believe it, you will cause trouble. 

Here's the problem as I see it.
If you are building a religion you need rules to be successful. Basic method, get them to agree to a belief in the god you are creating. Use the metaphor of nice peaceful sheep smothered with love often.  Insist there is no other way, as per unique holy instruction. Instill both sadness and disgust in the sheep for those who are outside the fence. Make the sheep prove they belong by providing hoops and ladders then taking their wool. Form doctrines and discipline to keep them in order, back it up with stories from a pedestal everybody thinks is awesome.     I just covered 1600 years of Christianity. Now the trend is to appease the sheep for the wool. 

To answer your theoretical question.

Mainstream Catholic belief, yes, but they have a much nicer way of presenting it. It includes penance and money in the box, but hey, sins all gone. You can go monthly, weekly, daily...       I really don't know much about them.

Protestants are on their own when it comes to repentance but the same applies. Personally, I believe the above concept is somewhat true but not near that simple and it's not what the Bible says. You can't just say "sorry". Everybody in Canada says sorry. For Protestants, Jesus is the mediator. (not that it's confusing...trinity speaking...).

Honestly, sins are between you and God. There's no use looking for a diversion to forgive you for a sin committed against God. You either go to the highest court or you die wondering. If you sin against a man, you go to that man. If you sin against God, you go to God. You either do it right or don't bother. I believe God will be more merciful with those who were honest about their sin habits than those hypocrites who pretended they were absolved. I said merciful, not necessarily forgiving. 

Thank you for sharing this story, it gave me a nice insight into the matter.

But what would you say defines you as a christian? Given the insight quoted and your view on it.

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On 3/2/2018 at 5:50 AM, IbnSina said:

Thank you for sharing this story, it gave me a nice insight into the matter.

But what would you say defines you as a christian? Given the insight quoted and your view on it.

The NT narrates the life of Jesus, and the message He came to give. There are instances where people came and worshiped Him, and He stood them up and questioned them as to why. There are others where the reaction is not recorded, but when it is..."Why do you call me good? There is only one good and that is my Father, who is in Heaven"  The true message of Jesus is not changed because somebody decided He should be God with God and God. 

Not sure if I can explain it, but there is a spiritual relationship between God and man that was passed on to Christians via the Holy Spirit known in English as the Comforter. Not Jesus, not the Holy Spirit, and certainly not Muhammad. I'm actually a little disappointed that Islam does not recognize this. Prophets were led by God, they had real conversations, they had insight whether they understood it or not. When Jesus left earth, he said he would send a comforter and He did. This is what led the Prophets, the difference is, it was now available to the common man.

I have heard a few Muslims tell me of times they felt "led" to do something they didn't really understand, and how only divine intervention could have predicted the outcome, but very few and far between, as with real Christians, I should add. These experiences never leave you and you can't ignore them. Whatever religion you may be in, you will stay...because the belief system you were taught no longer matters. The action of God actually showing you He cares in a way you cannot ignore can leave you on the floor crying for days. You know what's right and you learn what's wrong. The name "Comforter" isn't the best translation because it isn't all that comforting. I haven't found an Islamic explanation for it. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Christian churches often preach of such an awakening but few believe it when they hear of it. 

Overwhelming evidence Jesus died on a cross, even from secular authors. The Qu'ran says the Jews did not kill Jesus, points to believing such as conjecture. I know Islam has spun that into a dividing point, but how can scripture past and present contradict? I believe it's interpretation. The Qu'ran also goes on to say there were those who knew the truth, which would include the disciples who went on to preach a risen saviour. I am finding that the Qu'ran does not teach a new religion, it debunks faulty Christian doctrines and fills in blanks, yet does not always elaborate. There's no use explaining what's unfathomable, but this leaves a gap for imagination and that's what divides us. Religions need that division to survive.

I don't have one verse that backs up my understanding because it runs from the beginning to the end of the NT. The Revelation of John puts a few more things together. The death and resurrection of Jesus carries a lot more weight than what the Gospels show, (from their human perspective). Not sure there's a lot of use going into detail. It's foreign to most Christians let alone Muslims. 

What I'm seeing is that Jesus died for all. Muslims don't have to be Christian to be saved anymore than Gentiles had to become Jews before being saved. These are all man made god laws meant to keep God to themselves. On judgement day these scholars of division will be judged accordingly. 

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On 3/3/2018 at 6:47 PM, Son of Placid said:

The NT narrates the life of Jesus, and the mess.....

Hmm, but the holy spirit is recognized within Islam, its mentioned in the holy Quran as well, such in surah Al-Qadr. Have you researched this concept within Islam in dept?

Also have you heard of the concept of Fitrah in islam? It is like a divinely inspired nature that is unique to human beings, an inner compass, a God given guide but it requires us to listen to it.

Here is a very interesting lecture series on this concept within Islam:

As far as every non muslim going to hell, this might be new and interesting information for you:

Yes, the holy Qur'an came to correct that which has been altered within the Bible and the Christian faith, according to the holy Qur'an the Christans went astray after prophet Jesus(as) and his message got distorted, they started to say that he was God and worshiped him, while he was worshiping his creator. 

Likewise the holy Qur'an says that Christianity came to correct that which has been altered with in the Torah and the Jewish faith, they angered God by their conscious altering of their faith and practices, such as taking interest from loans, etc.

This is what surah Al-Fatihah, the first surah of the holy Qur'an refers to when it is talking about the straight path, not the path of those who have gone astray(Christianity) nor the path of those who have angered you(Judaism).

Your understanding of who God is, is more aligned with the concept of God within Islam and who is God in islam according to Islam? Do you know?

Imam Ali(as) describes who Allahسُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى is:

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23 minutes ago, Sisterfatima1 said:

Why is it ignored when Jesus said many times in the bible I am not god 

Can you post the verses, please?

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On 2/28/2018 at 1:21 PM, Son of Placid said:

Not a chance Brother. If you don't believe in a trinity you're going to the same hell I am, lol.

It seems that the 'fire and brimstone' is the emphasis of all the Baptist churches. The protestant church (Church of Christ/Church of God) that I attended before I became a Muslim had an emphasis on 'Be baptized or you won't go to Heaven." 

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Watch these 2 small videos, there are hundreds of sentences such as these in the bible. When I began my journey to Islam, I started from My book, the bible, Ahmad deedat managed to prove to me how the bible was manipulated throughout the years, this made me very confused and lost. The truth behind the bible and Christianity is Very clear, it is pretty much available for the one who needs to see. We are in the era of technology where nothing can be hidden.

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On 3/6/2018 at 4:58 PM, Hameedeh said:

It seems that the 'fire and brimstone' is the emphasis of all the Baptist churches. The protestant church (Church of Christ/Church of God) that I attended before I became a Muslim had an emphasis on 'Be baptized or you won't go to Heaven." 

Yes it is. Follow all the rules or you're going to hell. Weeping and gnashing of teeth. Actually, "brimstone" is sulfur. It is mentioned a few times in the Bible, but never says you will be covered in it and burn for eternity. It's actually never referenced as such, but it sure keeps the congregation in check.  

Old Testament references include Sodom and Gomorrah, or a cursed leader with fields of sulfur, meaning it's baron, nothing can grow.

New Testament reference is about the end times. It makes it sound more like the earth becomes so volatile that it ignites and kills about a third of the world's population, or it could be a bomb.... The Revelation of John mentions that people will burn "in the presence of angels and God" at that time, no reference to eternity. Angels aren't going to be present in hell so won't be watching for all eternity. It's a one time event as I see it. I believe that after living in a human body, then left conscious and Godless as a spirit with no moving parts could be hell enough. 

I'm no expert, and not always sure if I'm gathering truth or theory from my interpretations but still, there's actually no good reason to believe sinners will get a new body, just to be tormented with fire. 

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18 hours ago, co2017 said:

Why would the Qu'ron correct what the Holy Bible says? Are you saying God cannot protect His own word? He is not powerful enough to protect His perfect word?

Actually the Qur'an does not correct past scriptures, it confirms. The Qur'an corrects what early Christian scholars decided the Holy Bible says. Islamic scholars haven't done it any favours either. 

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19 hours ago, co2017 said:

Why would the Qu'ron correct what the Holy Bible says? Are you saying God cannot protect His own word? He is not powerful enough to protect His perfect word?

Allah knew that the Torah and Injeel would be changed. That is why He sent Islam as a way to perfect religion. The people had to be introduced to the law of Allah slowly through previous revelations. However, just like what happened to Iman Ali (AS), the people rejected the truth and decided to change religion based on their own whims and desires. 

As to why Allah would bring light and correct certain issues—He is not shy to tell mankind if they are in the wrong. How many times has Allah said that polytheism is wrong and that it is emphasized on being wrong? Why were many prophets sent to people around the world? 

Because:

1. People tend to forget

2. People are easily misguided

3. People reject the truth for various reasons.

4. Allah wants everyone to be given a chance at salvation and be protected against hell. 

5. Allah gives people multiple chances for people to correct their behavior

6. Allah is merciful

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11 minutes ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

Allah knew that the Torah and Injeel would be changed. That is why He sent Islam as a way to perfect religion. The people had to be introduced to the law of Allah slowly through previous revelations. However, just like what happened to Iman Ali (AS), the people rejected the truth and decided to change religion based on their own whims and desires. 

As to why Allah would bring light and correct certain issues—He is not shy to tell mankind if they are in the wrong. How many times has Allah said that polytheism is wrong and that it is emphasized on being wrong? Why were many prophets sent to people around the world? 

What many prophets? Which ones the last 1.400 years after Muhammed?

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