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In the Name of God بسم الله
co2017

Jesus Christ said I am the Truth. Why is truth ignored?

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6 minutes ago, AbdusSibtayn said:

Well, take it up with them. The OP seems to be one.

I took it up with them in the church I attended for years. They taught me how to study, then what to believe. When they don't add up, what do you believe, your eyes, or your teacher?

We came to the agreement that I was going to the wrong church. I believe that was 1976. 

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43 minutes ago, Son of Placid said:

Do you see what you just wrote? Was it recited orally by chance?

Did you just half quoted my post ?! It was recited orally and it was written at that time.

this is not the case with your unknownly written bible.

43 minutes ago, Son of Placid said:

You seriously still think God was not capable to preserve His word.

If god was supposed to preserve his word: so, where is your untouched Bible ? Or Torah ?

dont you get it?!

@Son of Placid where is it?

Edited by Arminmo

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I am really tired about hearing about this "untouched Torah".  A Book noone ever has seen or heard about until Muslims started to claim it had once existed. Jesus, who had the same Torah as we have got today, did not mention anything about a lost uncorrupted version. Nor did any Jews or Christians of his time. Not even the Quran does. At one time in history a Muslim read the Torah in Hebrew language, finding that there were many discrepancies with the Quran. His conclusion inevitable would be that Quran and Torah could not both be perfect, naturally concluding that the Torah must have been corrupted. In which century did this happen? 6th or 7th, or even later? When is this idea first recorded?

TheTorah was written in the 6th century BC. Based on oral and probably some written tradition. Oral traditions tend to differ and as a result there are indeed discrepances within the Torah. However this is the original Torah. The Gospels were written in second half of the first centuryAD. The Quran around 650AD. Like the Torah, they have not undergone dramatical changes, if any, since they were published and copies were distributed. 

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19 hours ago, andres said:

I am really tired about hearing about this "untouched Torah".  A Book noone ever has seen or heard about until Muslims started to claim it had once existed. Jesus, who had the same Torah as we have got today, did not mention anything about a lost uncorrupted version. Nor did any Jews or Christians of his time. Not even the Quran does. At one time in history a Muslim read the Torah in Hebrew language, finding that there were many discrepancies with the Quran. His conclusion inevitable would be that Quran and Torah could not both be perfect, naturally concluding that the Torah must have been corrupted. In which century did this happen? 6th or 7th, or even later? When is this idea first recorded?

TheTorah was written in the 6th century BC. Based on oral and probably some written tradition. Oral traditions tend to differ and as a result there are indeed discrepances within the Torah. However this is the original Torah. The Gospels were written in second half of the first centuryAD. The Quran around 650AD. Like the Torah, they have not undergone dramatical changes, if any, since they were published and copies were distributed. 

The Quran Sanctions Jews to follow their books and considers them righteous. 

I doubt a being with sincere motives reading the Quran could surmise the discrepancies as imperfections.  

Quran indicates there was a change between these two groups and what God commanded for one versus the other and both following their books still makes these people righteous. 

There are Jews who discard rabbinic material and Talmud,  as they're not the original books of Musa/Moses AS.

It seems all three religious groups have had a holy text and a set of texts that are man written for supplement.

Edited by wmehar2

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23 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

I took it up with them in the church I attended for years. They taught me how to study, then what to believe. When they don't add up, what do you believe, your eyes, or your teacher?

We came to the agreement that I was going to the wrong church. I believe that was 1976. 

What is the Unitarian position on Jesus (as)? I know they consider him fully human, neither fully divine (like the Monophysites do) nor both human and divine  at once(as the Catholics, Orthodox Christians and mainstream Protestants do ), but do they consider him to be the Son of God?

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2 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

The Quran Sanctions Jews to follow their books and considers them righteous. 

I doubt a being with sincere motives reading the Quran could surmise the discrepancies as imperfections.  

Quran indicates there was a change between these two groups and what God commanded for one versus the other and both following their books still makes these people righteous. 

There are Jews who discard rabbinic material and Talmud,  as they're not the original books of Musa/Moses AS.

It seems all three religious groups have had a holy text and a set of texts that are man written for supplement.

"It seems", "there are jews", "quran indicates", "sincere beings". What have this to do with the text you quoted? 

I claimed the Torah we have today is the original Torah, and that the idea of an uncorrupted Torah, matching the Qurans message, did not exist until Muslims discovered that there were disvrepansies between the Torah and the Quran. How long after the Quran had been written this discovery was made I do not know. I would not be surprised if it was a century. I am so tired of hearing this totally baseless claim that the Torah is corrupted. True, it is not 100% historically correct, but the Quran is not either.

 

Edited by andres

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8 hours ago, AbdusSibtayn said:

What is the Unitarian position on Jesus (as)? I know they consider him fully human, neither fully divine (like the Monophysites do) nor both human and divine  at once(as the Catholics, Orthodox Christians and mainstream Protestants do ), but do they consider him to be the Son of God?

I'm not really sure. I thought my beliefs might better match Unitarians and found one at work. Before we got into anything more than "One God" he started on about praying to dead relatives. I kinda stopped there. Smile and nod, smile and nod.

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10 hours ago, andres said:

"It seems", "there are jews", "quran indicates", "sincere beings". What have this to do with the text you quoted? 

I claimed the Torah we have today is the original Torah, and that the idea of an uncorrupted Torah, matching the Qurans message, did not exist until Muslims discovered that there were disvrepansies between the Torah and the Quran. How long after the Quran had been written this discovery was made I do not know. I would not be surprised if it was a century. I am so tired of hearing this totally baseless claim that the Torah is corrupted. True, it is not 100% historically correct, but the Quran is not either.

 

I was writing in general agreement but also disagreeing that a muslim would call the Torah corrupt unless he had less than half a brain.

The Quran supports an uncorrupted Torah explicitly.  I can argue that Jews are as equivalent to believers. 

As much as I am critical about hadith, There are narrations of the Prophet Muhammad AS swearing upon the Torah to settle disputes  among Jews, and use Jewish laws from the Torah with a rabbi with him to supplement his decision . 

I also wanted to note about the Talmud which isn't really part of the Torah yet followed as if it were. Which is purely man made/engineered by Rabbis.

which to me, is man made religion.

 

Suratul Baqarah: Verses 120 − 123

(١٢٠) وَلَن تَرۡضَىٰ عَنكَ ٱليهُودُ وَلَا ٱلنَّصَـٰرَىٰ حَتَّىٰ تَتَّبِعَ مِلَّتُهمۡ‌ۗ قُلۡ إِنَّ هُدَى ٱللَّهِ هُوَ ٱلهُدَىٰ‌ۗ وَلئنِ ٱتَّبَعتَ أَهوَآءَهُم بَعدَ ٱلَّذِى جَآءَكَ مِنَ ٱلعِلمِ‌ۙ مَا لَكَ مِنَ ٱللَّهِ مِن وَلِىٍّ۬ وَلَا نَصِيرٍ

(١٢١) ٱلَّذِينَ ءَاتَينَـٰهُمُ ٱلكِتَـٰبَ يَتلُونَهُ ۥ حَقَّ تِلَاوَتِهِۦۤ أُوْلَـئِكَ يُؤۡمِنُونَ بِهِۦ‌ۗ وَمَن يَكفُرۡ بِهِۦ فَأُوْلَـٰئكَ هُمُ ٱلخَـٰسِرُونَ

(١٢٢) يَـٰبَنِىٓ إِسرَٲٓءيلَ ٱذۡكُرُواْ نِعمَتِىَ ٱلَّتِىٓ أَنعَمتُ عَلَيكُمۡ وَأَنِّى فَضَّلتُكُمۡ عَلَى ٱلعَـٰلَمِينَ

(١٢٣) وَٱتَّقُواْ يَوۡمًا لَّا تَجزِى نَفسٌ عَن نَّفسٍ۬ شَيـئا وَلَا يُقبَلُ مِنَا عَدۡلٌ۬ وَلَا تَنفَعُهَا شَفَـٰعَةٌ۬ وَلَا هُمۡ يُنصَرُونَ

And the Jews will not be pleased with you, nor the Christians until you follow their religion. Say; “Surely Allah's guidance, that is the (true) guidance”. And if you follow their desires after the knowledge that has come to you, you shall have no guardian from Allah, nor any helper (120).

Those to whom We have given the Book read it as it aught to be read. These (it is who) believe in it; and whoever disbelieves in it, these it is that are the losers (121).

O Children of Israel, call to mind Mybounty which I bestowed on you and that I made you excel the nations (122).

And be on your guard against a day when no soul shall avail another in the least neither shall any compensation be accepted from it, nor shall intercession profit it nor shall they be helped (123).

 

Edited by wmehar2

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1 hour ago, wmehar2 said:

I was writing in general agreement but also disagreeing that a muslim would call the Torah corrupt unless he had less than half a brain.

The Quran supports an uncorrupted Torah explicitly.  I can argue that Jews are as equivalent to believers. 

As much as I am critical about hadith, There are narrations of the Prophet Muhammad AS swearing upon the Torah to settle disputes  among Jews, and use Jewish laws from the Torah with a rabbi with him to supplement his decision . 

I also wanted to note about the Talmud which isn't really part of the Torah yet followed as if it were. Which is purely man made/engineered by Rabbis.

which to me, is man made religion.

 

Suratul Baqarah: Verses 120 − 123

(١٢٠) وَلَن تَرۡضَىٰ عَنكَ ٱليهُودُ وَلَا ٱلنَّصَـٰرَىٰ حَتَّىٰ تَتَّبِعَ مِلَّتُهمۡ‌ۗ قُلۡ إِنَّ هُدَى ٱللَّهِ هُوَ ٱلهُدَىٰ‌ۗ وَلئنِ ٱتَّبَعتَ أَهوَآءَهُم بَعدَ ٱلَّذِى جَآءَكَ مِنَ ٱلعِلمِ‌ۙ مَا لَكَ مِنَ ٱللَّهِ مِن وَلِىٍّ۬ وَلَا نَصِيرٍ

(١٢١) ٱلَّذِينَ ءَاتَينَـٰهُمُ ٱلكِتَـٰبَ يَتلُونَهُ ۥ حَقَّ تِلَاوَتِهِۦۤ أُوْلَـئِكَ يُؤۡمِنُونَ بِهِۦ‌ۗ وَمَن يَكفُرۡ بِهِۦ فَأُوْلَـٰئكَ هُمُ ٱلخَـٰسِرُونَ

(١٢٢) يَـٰبَنِىٓ إِسرَٲٓءيلَ ٱذۡكُرُواْ نِعمَتِىَ ٱلَّتِىٓ أَنعَمتُ عَلَيكُمۡ وَأَنِّى فَضَّلتُكُمۡ عَلَى ٱلعَـٰلَمِينَ

(١٢٣) وَٱتَّقُواْ يَوۡمًا لَّا تَجزِى نَفسٌ عَن نَّفسٍ۬ شَيـئا وَلَا يُقبَلُ مِنَا عَدۡلٌ۬ وَلَا تَنفَعُهَا شَفَـٰعَةٌ۬ وَلَا هُمۡ يُنصَرُونَ

And the Jews will not be pleased with you, nor the Christians until you follow their religion. Say; “Surely Allah's guidance, that is the (true) guidance”. And if you follow their desires after the knowledge that has come to you, you shall have no guardian from Allah, nor any helper (120).

Those to whom We have given the Book read it as it aught to be read. These (it is who) believe in it; and whoever disbelieves in it, these it is that are the losers (121).

O Children of Israel, call to mind Mybounty which I bestowed on you and that I made you excel the nations (122).

And be on your guard against a day when no soul shall avail another in the least neither shall any compensation be accepted from it, nor shall intercession profit it nor shall they be helped (123).

 

So how do you explain than Muhammed certifies the Torah even if it does not always agree with the Quran?

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1 hour ago, andres said:

So how do you explain than Muhammed certifies the Torah even if it does not always agree with the Quran?

He certifies what is truth from remaining of Torah that was true not all of it.

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33 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

He certifies what is truth from remaining of Torah that was true not all of it.

How can you know when the Quran never say there is something wrong with parts of the Torah?

Edited by andres

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5 minutes ago, andres said:

How can you know when the Quran never say there is something wrong with parts of the Torah?

All members explain it to you in other posts but you never accept the truth.

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1 hour ago, andres said:

So how do you explain than Muhammed certifies the Torah even if it does not always agree with the Quran?

Don't know what others believe or say on this,   but from what I read and put together God had different standards or protocol from one group to another. 

Though the message fundamentally the same.  

The Quran refers to the Torah, Injeel (gospel) and itself .   It distinctly makes these books known as different but as His message. If they were meant to all be the same book I feel the author of the Quran would have just said the Quran came down before and was twisted, but it doesn't do that.

it also maintains those who followed their books were righteous including the Quran after. 

Not all Arabs were children of Israel yet the Quran addresses them specifically l (as I referenced above and in many places).

Perhaps this is part of the Quran teaching the followers of it to not force its laws on others who don't beleive in it and perhaps those follow a book He sent down are entitled to be autonomous to govern themselves with their own law and should be.

The Quran mentions that it's a book for those conscious of God, in the beginning, and who beleive in the unseen.  This extends well beyond Jews and Christians and validates that the books these people received as a bonafide message from God.

Perhaps because these era of time these books came down called for different rules though Gods laws still fundamentally the same, since people are dynamic. 

The Quran explicitly states among Jews and Christians are righteous people who bow in prayer and their reward /earnest work will never be removed from them.

I think the Quran is acknowledging the fact people who are Christian or Jewish have a right to have reservations about the Quran, and as long as they follow the books that were given to them  sincerely,  then well... they're on a right path.

Qur'an 3:64-71   Surah Ale-'Imran (The Family of 'Imran)
Say: "O people of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you: that we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not from among ourselves Lords and patrons other than Allah." If then they turn back say: "Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's will)."
Ye people of the Book! why dispute ye about Abraham when the Law and the Gospel were not revealed till after him? Have ye no understanding?
Ah! ye are those who fell to disputing (even) in matters of which ye had some knowledge! but why dispute ye in matters of which ye have no knowledge? It is Allah Who knows and ye who know not!

The above except validate my point .  Torah is Law, distinct from Gospel which is its own law.

 

Qur'an 5:67-69   Surah Al-Ma'idah (The Table Spread)
O Apostle! proclaim the (Message) which hath been sent to thee from thy Lord. If thou didst not thou wouldst not have fulfilled and proclaimed His mission: and Allah will defend thee from men (who mean mischief). For Allah guideth not those who reject faith.
Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law the Gospel and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith.
Those who believe (in the Qur'an) those who follow the Jewish (Scriptures) and the Sabians and the Christians any who believe in Allah and the Last Day and work righteousness on them shall be no fear nor shall they grieve.

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1 hour ago, wmehar2 said:

Don't know what others believe or say on this,   but from what I read and put together God had different standards or protocol from one group to another. 

Though the message fundamentally the same.  

The Quran refers to the Torah, Injeel (gospel) and itself .   It distinctly makes these books known as different but as His message. If they were meant to all be the same book I feel the author of the Quran would have just said the Quran came down before and was twisted, but it doesn't do that.

You have got a good point here. The Gospels, Quran and the Torah are different books. The differences therefore does not necessarily mean corruption. They were different from birth. The Quran also does not claim the Gospels and the Torah is. Many Muslims do not agree on this. 

Edited by andres

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1 hour ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

All members explain it to you in other posts but you never accept the truth.

After having asked for verification very many times, still no member has yet shown me a sura that say the Torah was corrupted. I am sure they had if such sura had existed. The idea must have arissen after the Quran was written, when it became obvious the books had discrepancies. Which was.a problem for those claiming the Torah and Quran must be in consensus.

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24 minutes ago, andres said:

After having asked for verification very many times, still no member has yet shown me a sura that say the Torah was corrupted. I am sure they had if such sura had existed. The idea must have arissen after the Quran was written, when it became obvious the books had discrepancies. Which was.a problem for those claiming the Torah and Quran must be in consensus.

 

2:75

Do you covet [the hope, O believers], that they would believe for you while a party of them used to hear the words of Allah and then distort the Torah after they had understood it while they were knowing?

5:13

So for their breaking of the covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard. They distort words from their [proper] usages and have forgotten a portion of that of which they were reminded. And you will still observe deceit among them, except a few of them. But pardon them and overlook [their misdeeds]. Indeed, Allah loves the doers of good.

15:9

Indeed, it is We who sent down the Qur'an and indeed, We will be its guardian.

There are verses that say Allah has preserved the Quran and gaurds it from corruption

 

 

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7 minutes ago, kirtc said:

 

2:75

Do you covet [the hope, O believers], that they would believe for you while a party of them used to hear the words of Allah and then distort the Torah after they had understood it while they were knowing?

5:13

So for their breaking of the covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard. They distort words from their [proper] usages and have forgotten a portion of that of which they were reminded. And you will still observe deceit among them, except a few of them. But pardon them and overlook [their misdeeds]. Indeed, Allah loves the doers of good.

15:9

Indeed, it is We who sent down the Qur'an and indeed, We will be its guardian.

There are verses that say Allah has preserved the Quran and gaurds it from corruption

 

 

Be careful of translations.

Do you covet [the hope, O believers], that they would believe for you while a party of them used to hear the words of Allah and then distort the Torah after they had understood it while they were knowing?

Pickthall: Have ye any hope that they will be true to you when a party of them used to listen to the word of Allah, then used to change it, after they had understood it, knowingly?

Yusuf Ali: Can ye (o ye men of Faith) entertain the hope that they will believe in you?- Seeing that a party of them heard the Word of Allah, and perverted it knowingly after they understood it.

Shakir: Do you then hope that they would believe in you, and a party from among them indeed used to hear the Word of Allah, then altered it after they had understood it, and they know (this).

Muhammad Sarwar: Do you, the believers in truth, desire the unbelievers to believe you? There was a group among them who would hear the word of God and understand it. Then they would purposely misinterpret it.

Mohsin Khan: Do you (faithful believers) covet that they will believe in your religion inspite of the fact that a party of them (Jewish rabbis) used to hear the Word of Allah [the Taurat (Torah)], then they used to change it knowingly after they understood it?

Arberry: Are you then so eager that they should believe you, seeing there is a party of them that heard God's word, and then tampered with it, and that after they had comprehended it, wittingly?

 

A few of these translations express that the Torah may not have been distorted directly but misinterpreted 

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5 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

Be careful of translations.

Do you covet [the hope, O believers], that they would believe for you while a party of them used to hear the words of Allah and then distort the Torah after they had understood it while they were knowing?

Pickthall: Have ye any hope that they will be true to you when a party of them used to listen to the word of Allah, then used to change it, after they had understood it, knowingly?

Yusuf Ali: Can ye (o ye men of Faith) entertain the hope that they will believe in you?- Seeing that a party of them heard the Word of Allah, and perverted it knowingly after they understood it.

Shakir: Do you then hope that they would believe in you, and a party from among them indeed used to hear the Word of Allah, then altered it after they had understood it, and they know (this).

Muhammad Sarwar: Do you, the believers in truth, desire the unbelievers to believe you? There was a group among them who would hear the word of God and understand it. Then they would purposely misinterpret it.

Mohsin Khan: Do you (faithful believers) covet that they will believe in your religion inspite of the fact that a party of them (Jewish rabbis) used to hear the Word of Allah [the Taurat (Torah)], then they used to change it knowingly after they understood it?

Arberry: Are you then so eager that they should believe you, seeing there is a party of them that heard God's word, and then tampered with it, and that after they had comprehended it, wittingly?

 

A few of these translations express that the Torah may not have been distorted directly but misinterpreted 

yea..

another thing is there are vesrses that state that Allah sent down the books before the Quran. And then there are verses that state that Quran is gaurded from being corrupted. This can also show that the others were susceptible to corruption

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2 hours ago, andres said:

After having asked for verification very many times, still no member has yet shown me a sura that say the Torah was corrupted.

I have shown you this more 200 times, I suppose that you have amnesia!

Quran 6:91

“And they did not appraise Allah with true appraisal when they said, "Allah did not reveal to a human being anything." Say, "Who revealed the Scripture that Moses brought as light and guidance to the people? You [Jews] make it into pages, disclosing [some of] it and concealing much. And you were taught that which you knew not - neither you nor your fathers." Say, "Allah [revealed it]." Then leave them in their [empty] discourse, amusing themselves.”

Words: making into pages , and concealing much!

Edited by Arminmo

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4 hours ago, andres said:

How can you know when the Quran never say there is something wrong with parts of the Torah?

The top post is your answer for more than 201 times!

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1 hour ago, Arminmo said:

The top post is your answer for more than 201 times!

The 202nd time probably won't be any better because the 201 answers don't come with tangible evidence . Concealing is a form of corruption for sure, but none of your references say there were alterations made to the actual past scriptures. How could the Quran confirm?   

You can't say it confirms this and that, but not this and that because there is no this and that list in the Quran. It's just as odd to judge the OT by Islamic standards determined 1000 years after the fact.

You can't argue it means past past scriptures that were obscure at the time Gabriel told Muhammad or you'd have to concede that Gabriel wasted time babbling about the irrelevant. 

It concerns me that the Quran clearly state that Jews and Christians can also be saved but you spend your time tearing them and their scriptures down. I don't know how you balance these issues.

 

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As salaamun aleikum,

From Al Mizan, 2;75  Allameh Tabatabaie:

(٧٥) أَفَتَطْمَعُونَ أَن يُؤْمِنُواْ لَكُمْ وَقَدْ كَانَ فَرِيقٌ مِّنْهُمْ يَسْمَعُونَ كَلاَمَ اللّهِ ثُمَّ يُحَرِّفُونَهُ مِن بَعْدِ مَا عَقَلُوهُ وَهُمْ يَعْلَمُونَ

Do you then hope that they would believe in you? While a party from among them indeed used to hear the word of Allah, then altered it after they had understood it, and they know (this) (75).

Qur’an: Do you then hope . . . and they know this: The speech is now addressed to the Prophet and the believers, referring to the Jews in third person. This same style was used in the preceding story of the Cow, because the Jews had omitted the event from the Torah. These verses continue that mode of address because it exposes their habit of altering and manipulating the divine book.

Commentary

The context shows that the unbelievers, and especially those of Medina, thought that the Jews were the likeliest people to help and support the Apostle of Allah at his advent. The pagan tribes of Aws and Khazraj lived with the Jews of Medina, and they knew that the latter followed a divine religion and a revealed book. Thus it was not too much to expect them to believe in the latest in the series of divine religions and books.

This was the basis of their hope that the Jews would accept the Apostle of Allah as the true prophet, and would strengthen the cause of religion, and actively participate in the propagation of truth. But no sooner did the Prophet migrate to Medina than the Jews showed their latent hostility. The hope was shattered and the expectation turned to disappointment.

That is why Allah addresses the believers, saying: “Do you then hope that they would believe in you?” Concealment of truth and alteration of divine words was their deep-rooted life-pattern. Why wonder if they go back on what they used to say before the advent of Islam?

W/s

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11 hours ago, kirtc said:

Do you covet [the hope, O believers], that they would believe for you while a party of them used to hear the words of Allah and then distort the Torah after they had understood it while they were knowing?

”..aparty of them…”.  This means there is Another party that does not distort. And it does not say the original text was changed. I am certain you Think there are Muslims that distort the message of the Quran. ISIS, Saudis or maybe even Sunnies? But the original Quran from 650AD still exist.  So does the Torah from the 6th Century BC

Here is another translation of 2:75:

DR. MUSTAFA KHATTAB, THE CLEAR QURAN

Do you ˹believers still˺ expect them to be true to you, though a group of them would hear the word of Allah then knowingly corrupt it after understanding it?

Having seen so many interpolations and brackets in Quranic translations, I tend to believe the Word ”Torah” is not mentioned in the original Arabic text. If so we do not even know if Muhammed speaks about a written document.

 

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9 hours ago, Arminmo said:

I have shown you this more 200 times, I suppose that you have amnesia!

Quran 6:91

“And they did not appraise Allah with true appraisal when they said, "Allah did not reveal to a human being anything." Say, "Who revealed the Scripture that Moses brought as light and guidance to the people? You [Jews] make it into pages, disclosing [some of] it and concealing much. And you were taught that which you knew not - neither you nor your fathers." Say, "Allah [revealed it]." Then leave them in their [empty] discourse, amusing themselves.”

Words: making into pages , and concealing much!

You have shown suras many times, but not a sura that say the Torah was corrupted. Quran 6:91 does not say so either. 

Who says: "Allah did not reveal to a human being anything."? Jews? Not a chanse. Jews all believed the plates with the 10 commands were handed over to Moses by God himself personally. 

Who ".....make it into pages, disclosing [some of] it and concealing much".? In the translation you pasted, "Jews" are within brackets, signalizing that it is an interpolation. It might as well be with Muhammed local contemporary "people of the Book"

The longer time goes without  you not being able to present a sura that clearly says the Quran say the Torah, (and the Gospels, actually the entire Bible) was corrupted, the more I am convinced that Muhammed believed the uncorrupted Bible still existed and was in use. Not until someone discovered that the Quran and the Bible did not entirely match, the idea of corruption was born. This would be after the compilation of the Quran, maybe even centuries later. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, shia farm girl said:

As salaamun aleikum,

From Al Mizan, 2;75  Allameh Tabatabaie:

(٧٥) أَفَتَطْمَعُونَ أَن يُؤْمِنُواْ لَكُمْ وَقَدْ كَانَ فَرِيقٌ مِّنْهُمْ يَسْمَعُونَ كَلاَمَ اللّهِ ثُمَّ يُحَرِّفُونَهُ مِن بَعْدِ مَا عَقَلُوهُ وَهُمْ يَعْلَمُونَ

Do you then hope that they would believe in you? While a party from among them indeed used to hear the word of Allah, then altered it after they had understood it, and they know (this) (75).

Qur’an: Do you then hope . . . and they know this: The speech is now addressed to the Prophet and the believers, referring to the Jews in third person. This same style was used in the preceding story of the Cow, because the Jews had omitted the event from the Torah. These verses continue that mode of address because it exposes their habit of altering and manipulating the divine book.

Commentary

The context shows that the unbelievers, and especially those of Medina, thought that the Jews were the likeliest people to help and support the Apostle of Allah at his advent. The pagan tribes of Aws and Khazraj lived with the Jews of Medina, and they knew that the latter followed a divine religion and a revealed book. Thus it was not too much to expect them to believe in the latest in the series of divine religions and books.

This was the basis of their hope that the Jews would accept the Apostle of Allah as the true prophet, and would strengthen the cause of religion, and actively participate in the propagation of truth. But no sooner did the Prophet migrate to Medina than the Jews showed their latent hostility. The hope was shattered and the expectation turned to disappointment.

That is why Allah addresses the believers, saying: “Do you then hope that they would believe in you?” Concealment of truth and alteration of divine words was their deep-rooted life-pattern. Why wonder if they go back on what they used to say before the advent of Islam?

W/s

I believe you are saying that 2:75 speaks about contemporaries with Muhammed? If so I agree. But in the 6th century the Bible was very well established on Earth and impossible to corrupt

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As salaamun aleikum, 

Yes, im sure there is some issue with contemporaries that was going on, but i think whats being said is that it was their general behavior in the past to change and distort things. Things are kind of vague, and i have a tendency to lean towards what @wmehar2 has mentioned above.

I guess there is another issue, and that would be what is explained in this link, which is from a Jewish/Israeli newspaper. For me, i just see that there were so many people involved at so many different times in history, that its hard for me to believe that at some point, if not at many, that things were changed, for whatever reasons there may have been.

https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/.premium-who-wrote-the-torah-1.5318582

There really isnt any timeline provided.

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This is kinda interesting, however its probably not exactly what many people would accept as significant enough. And i keep having that one incident where Prophet Mohammad judges the Jews by their book, so how coukd he justly judge them if the book was too corrupted? 

Or maybe that was a lesson in itself? To get judged according to a book that was corrupted would be a real bad time::(

Anyway, i got this from a website thats the Jewish equivalent of Shia Chat:

 

The truth is that every bit of evidence we have says that the Torah underwent changes. But most of these changes were not usually significant, though sometimes enough changes could become significant. [Of the Biblical textual differences, most of them are names of places, spelling differences, ages or heights of people.] For example, by the time we reach the flood during the time of Noah, the "Official" Torah has existed for 1,656 years, whereas other ancient versions has the world having existed for 2,242 years. Any differences that were theological in nature were very rare.1

But what is also true that after a certain time in history, the Torah/Biblical text stopped changing, and every Jewish community ended up with the same text (minus incidental spelling differences of the same words). By the time of Muhammed, every [known] Jewish community had the same Biblical text [as in any differences between texts didn't change anything theologically], but the Dead Sea Scrolls has also shown that there existed corruptions of some form or the other which I will show before.

The version of the text that Jews have been relying upon for the past 1,000 years is called the Masoretic text. This is the "official" version of the Biblical text for religious Jews. Unfortunately, this "text" in manuscript form is only 1,000 years old. The oldest [surviving and unfortunately not complete] manuscript we have of the Masoretic text is the Aleppo Codex, which has been digitized and can be viewed/read here: http://aleppocodex.org/ Note that there are other types of Masoretic text, but the Aleppo Codex was used by the Rambam, and he claimed that all [scholars] relied upon it, and this codex was treasured and highly valued by all of wolrd Jewry.

However, we know that the Torah is more than 1,000 years old, so what about more ancient manuscripts? Well, we didn't have any older Hebrew manuscripts, but we had other manuscripts of ancient Greek, Aramaic, Samaritan, and Latin translations of the Hebrew Bible. The problem? There were lots of differences between these translations and the Masoretic Text. For example, the Greek translation, called the Septuagint, had extra verses in the Torah, had extra books (such as Ben Sirach, Ecclesiasticus, Maccabees, etc), and had extra chapters for books like Daniel. Rabbis in historical discourses between them and Catholics said those changes were caused by the process of the translation, or due to books being included for political reasons etc. But the problem is that most times, all these different ancient translations would agree with each other, and it was only the Masoretic text that would be different.

An example would be Genesis 4:8. The Masoretic text says the following:

ח וַיֹּאמֶר קַיִן, אֶל-הֶבֶל אָחִיו; וַיְהִי בִּהְיוֹתָם בַּשָּׂדֶה, וַיָּקָם קַיִן אֶל-הֶבֶל אָחִיו וַיַּהַרְגֵהוּ. 8

And Cain spoke unto Abel his brother. And it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.

Notice something missing? The Masoretic text states "And Cain said to Able....and they were in the field." The Masoretic text doesn't state what Cain says. But the Greek Septuagint, the Samaritan Torah, the Pe[Edited Out]ta, and every other ancient manuscripts have these extra words: "And Cain said to Able let us go to the field..." So we have instances of every older translation of the Hebrew text being in agreement, and the Masoretic text being the only one that's different.

And then the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered. And while they are also missing the words of Cain, there are literally thousands of differences between the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Masoretic text. And many times, the Dead Sea Scrolls agrees with the older translations and disagrees with the Masoretic text. A good example is this question: How tall was Goliath?

1st Samuel 17:4 Masoretic Text:

ד וַיֵּצֵא אִישׁ-הַבֵּנַיִם מִמַּחֲנוֹת פְּלִשְׁתִּים, גָּלְיָת שְׁמוֹ מִגַּת: גָּבְהוֹ, שֵׁשׁ אַמּוֹת וָזָרֶת. 4

And there went out a champion from the camp of the Philistines, named Goliath, of Gath, whose height was six cubits and a span.

So according to the Masoretic text, Goliath was roughly 9 feet tall, which is quite miraculous. But The Septuagint, Josephus, other ancient texts and the newly discovered Dead Sea Scrolls read the following:

And there went out a champion from the camp of the Philistines, named Goliath, of Gath, whose height was four cubits and a span.

So with the Dead Sea Scrolls we have strong corroborating evidence that the Masoretic Text is corrupt with how tall Goliath was. And yet Jews disregard this very strongevidence and continue to teach their kids that Goliath was a 9 foot tall giant, when the reality is that he was probably about 6'9.

Another famous example of where ancient translations and the Dead Sea Scrolls agree against the Masoretic text is Psalm 145, known as Ashrei, which is recited every Shabbat. The Psalm is an Acrostic, with every line beginning with a different letter of the Hebrew alphabet, except for the letter Nun. The Babylonian Talmud discusses this:

Berakhot 4b:

But [Psalm Psalm 145 is selected] because it contains both features. R. Johanan said: Why is there no verse beginning with the letter Nun in that Psalm ? Because it would refer to the downfall of Israel's enemies; as it is written, "Fallen (Naphelah) is the virgin of Israel, she shall no more rise" (Amos v. 2).

But the Septuagint, Pe[Edited Out]ta, Vulgate, and Dead Sea Scrolls are in agreement that there should be a line with a Nun, and here it is:

enter image description here"Faithful is the LORD in all His ways, and merciful in all His works" (Hebrew: "נאמן אלוהים בדבריו וחסיד בכל מעשיו").

But what about examples where all the older manuscripts agree, but we didn't find a copy of it in the Dead Sea Scrolls? Well, we have an example that appears to be a clear case of textual corruption:

Masoretic Text: 1st Samuel 13:1

א בֶּן-שָׁנָה, שָׁאוּל בְּמָלְכוֹ; וּשְׁתֵּי שָׁנִים, מָלַךְ עַל-יִשְׂרָאֵל. 1

Saul was one years old when he began to reign; and two years he reigned over Israel.

We all know that Saul was more than a year old when he became king, and we know that he reigned for more than 2 years. Yet Jewish tradition explains away these discrepancies rather than try to discuss possible corruptions. Take a look at Rashi's comment on that verse:

Saul was a year in his reign: (lit., a year old.) Our Rabbis of sainted memory said: Like a one year old, who did not experience the taste of sin (Yoma 22b). It may also be interpreted thus: Saul was a year in his reign, i.e., in the first year in which he was made king (and he reigned two years over Israel), and in the first year...

And yet the Septuagint, Vulgate, and every other ancient text has this text:

Saul was thirty years old when he began to reign; and forty two years he reigned over Israel.

Unfortunately we didn't find a copy of the Dead Sea Scrolls that contains this verse, but considering our other examples thus far, it would more than likely match this text.

All of these examples thus far have shown differences of little theological importance, so let's show one that has big implications. Deuteronomy 32:8 Masoretic Version:

ח בְּהַנְחֵל עֶלְיוֹן גּוֹיִם, {ס} בְּהַפְרִידוֹ בְּנֵי אָדָם; {ר} יַצֵּב גְּבֻלֹת עַמִּים, {ס} לְמִסְפַּר בְּנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל. {ר} 8

When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when He separated the children of men, He set the borders of the peoples according to the number of the children of Israel.

Dead Sea Scrolls:

ח בְּהַנְחֵל עֶלְיוֹן גּוֹיִם, {ס} בְּהַפְרִידוֹ בְּנֵי אָדָם; {ר} יַצֵּב גְּבֻלֹת עַמִּים, {ס} לְמִסְפַּר בְּנֵי אֱלֹהִים. {ר} 8

When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when He separated the children of men, He set the borders of the peoples according to the number of the "children of Elohim"

So while the Dead Sea Scrolls prove that there was a lot of differences in the Biblical text, we stop seeing these kinds of large changes after the time of the Dead Sea Scrolls. The Dead Sea Scrolls are dated to be written around 100-300BCE, but after that, the texts seem to be much more fixed and stop having any relevant differences. Maybe the scribes got more oversight, or were better at their craft. Maybe differing manuscripts were destroyed or lost to history with the destruction of the Temple and therefore could no longer be copied or spread around. Either way, there is credibility to the claim that our text has not been a perfect transmission. But most of the "changes" wouldn't matter religiously, to Muhammed, or to Jews.

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1 hour ago, shia farm girl said:

As salaamun aleikum, 

Yes, im sure there is some issue with contemporaries that was going on, but i think whats being said is that it was their general behavior in the past to change and distort things. Things are kind of vague, and i have a tendency to lean towards what @wmehar2 has mentioned above.

I guess there is another issue, and that would be what is explained in this link, which is from a Jewish/Israeli newspaper. For me, i just see that there were so many people involved at so many different times in history, that its hard for me to believe that at some point, if not at many, that things were changed, for whatever reasons there may have been.

https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/.premium-who-wrote-the-torah-1.5318582

There really isnt any timeline provided.

Here is a link with a timeline:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmtL4zH7A7Y

The article from Haaretz reflects the view of the majority of theologians, historians and archeological academics.  Lots is to be found online. Short ones as the 13 minutes link on youtube, or even a 25 hour course from Yale University. If you have got the time, it is very interesting, digging into many different subjects of the OT. 

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1 hour ago, shia farm girl said:

So while the Dead Sea Scrolls prove that there was a lot of differences in the Biblical text, we stop seeing these kinds of large changes after the time of the Dead Sea Scrolls. The Dead Sea Scrolls are dated to be written around 100-300BCE, but after that, the texts seem to be much more fixed and stop having any relevant differences. Maybe the scribes got more oversight, or were better at their craft. Maybe differing manuscripts were destroyed or lost to history with the destruction of the Temple and therefore could no longer be copied or spread around. Either way, there is credibility to the claim that our text has not been a perfect transmission. But most of the "changes" wouldn't matter religiously, to Muhammed, or to Jews.

Transmissions were not perfect. Every copy had to be written by hand. Sometimes from a document where a word was not readable. Could be why one writes children of Elohim and another writes Israel. Scribal errors also happened to the New Testament. Probably also to the Quran. If not they would not have to burn examples that differed. If Goliath was 3 meters tall or only 2 does not really matter. Personally I go for 2 meters. The story was written centuries after it is supposed to have happened, and oral stories tend to exagerate. 

The ending of Mark Gospel is very abrupt in some old documents. Other old ones are 11 verses or so longer. Most academics think it has been added by early Christians, that believed the ending got lost. A reasonable suggestion. We may never find out.   

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3 hours ago, shia farm girl said:

Either way, there is credibility to the claim that our text has not been a perfect transmission.

I'm sorry if I gave you the impression I believed every word was the word of God. This happens with all scriptures written by men. 

Comparing texts is also problematic because,  somebody decides to compile the scriptures into one place. They take what they believe to be the first words, most authentic, best possible understanding, all that stuff, and burn the rest. Someone from the inner circle doesn't think that's fair and manages to scurry off with some documents saved from the burn pile, then hides them to be found in the future. Here we are. Were these burn pile texts alterations from the accepted texts, or copies, or the actual truth meant to be hidden by the compilers? Some of the dead sea scroll fragments are word for word, some are not. Which to believe?

As far as I know, The Dead sea scrolls were the first to be found, the second was the Nag Hammadi Library, and there is one more that did not make the burn pile, that would be the Quran compiled by Imam Ali.

Other than the "AHA" factor, what impact does,  the children of Israel, children of Elohim make on you? The writer of the page seems to think it has a major impact. Actually, it probably has more impact on me than anyone else on this site because I don't believe Elohim to be God. 

These alterations are similar to those found between the Quran according to Hafs and the Quran according to Warsh.

1:4 hafs_1.4.gif, Owner of the day, or warsh_1.3.gif, King of the day. English translation is Master of the day. Considering they are all meant to proclaim Allah as the absolute in charge, what impact do the differences in terminology have on you? 

Actually I find it interesting that Shia prefer the Hafs version, (The reader, Abu Bakr 'Asim), rather than the Warsh, (the reader Nafi', a known companion of Imam Ali.) 

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@Son of Placid very good points, and i agree that the particular impact the part "the children of Israel, children of Elohim" makes is most likely not a big deal. I just find the article/post interesting.

For anyone that may be questioning my intention or may be suprised at some of my posts in this thread, my sole objective is to get to the Truth and the correct understanding of Islam and the other Holy Books. I think it should be the goal of any honest God loving/God fearing person to seek to uncover the truth of ANY matter that is being discussed, in any conversation and be willing to let go of preconceptions and biases if  we find  they go against the Truth. I think thats what most of us are doing here, is debating and trying to figure out what exactly IS the truth, i just wanted to clarify that my goal isnt to pull an "Im right, youre wrong" simply because i was raised to believe a certain idea, or maybe made assumptions based on lack of knowledge, so if I do infact discover something that turns out to be the Truth and is against any current beliefs i hold, im willing to accept that new piece of information as opposed to denying it and refusing to accept it. 

w/s

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On 3/12/2018 at 5:57 AM, co2017 said:

Why would the Qu'ron correct what the Holy Bible says? Are you saying God cannot protect His own word? He is not powerful enough to protect His perfect word?

hi, He can protect his word but in previous religion before Islam ,he tested them that they can keep his word intact or not but they failed ,It is not predestination or why he knows past,present,Future why not preserve his word as Sunni Muslims says about Shia Imam Muslims why they knew that will be martyred didn't protect themselves from martyrdom & call it suicide what Imam Husain (as) did to himself & his family.

https://whoishussain.org/

Who is Hussain?

 

Image result for who is hussain

Image result for who is hussain

 

image.jpeg.3d93d6d3769f5a830815ead175f0a484.jpeg image.jpeg.a4e51ea8e2a5dd76505089e344bee19c.jpeg

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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The misconception that Imam Hussein(AS) committed suicide is totally inaccurate. A reason why suicide is haram is because it is haram to despair of hope in Allah. People who commit suicide have lost hope in Allah that their situation will improve so they take their own life. It is the act of despairing that is haram, and Imam Hussein(AS) never lost his hope in Allah through it all so it isnt considered suicide.

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6 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

hi, He can protect his word but in previous religion before Islam ,he tested them that they can keep his word intact or not but they failed ,It is not predestination or why he knows past,present,Future why not preserve his word as Sunni Muslims says about Shia Imam Muslims why they knew that will be martyred didn't protect themselves from martyrdom & call it suicide what Imam Husain (as) did to himself & his family.

So....The only messages from God remaining today is the Quran and the Bible. If God sent messages to Eskimoes, Australian aboriginals, Britain, Japan and every other inhabited spot on our planet, had he not tested enough to know that next time the message had to be preserved? It makes little sense to me that the Quran was the only revelation God bothered to portect from corruption or extinction, of the many thousands God sent to mankind.

Even more so if He knew this would happen before he started revealing.

 

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13 minutes ago, andres said:

Even more so if He knew this would happen before he started revealing.

 

وَمَا تَفَرَّقُوا إِلَّا مِن بَعْدِ مَا جَاءَهُمُ الْعِلْمُ بَغْيًا بَيْنَهُمْ ۚ وَلَوْلَا كَلِمَةٌ سَبَقَتْ مِن رَّبِّكَ إِلَىٰ أَجَلٍ مُّسَمًّى لَّقُضِيَ بَيْنَهُمْ ۚ وَإِنَّ الَّذِينَ أُورِثُوا الْكِتَابَ مِن بَعْدِهِمْ لَفِي شَكٍّ مِّنْهُ مُرِيبٍ ﴿١٤ فَلِذَٰلِكَ فَادْعُ ۖ وَاسْتَقِمْ كَمَا أُمِرْتَ ۖ وَلَا تَتَّبِعْ أَهْوَاءَهُمْ ۖ وَقُلْ آمَنتُ بِمَا أَنزَلَ اللَّـهُ مِن كِتَابٍ ۖ وَأُمِرْتُ لِأَعْدِلَ بَيْنَكُمُ ۖ اللَّـهُ رَبُّنَا وَرَبُّكُمْ ۖ لَنَا أَعْمَالُنَا وَلَكُمْ أَعْمَالُكُمْ ۖ لَا حُجَّةَ بَيْنَنَا وَبَيْنَكُمُ ۖ اللَّـهُ يَجْمَعُ بَيْنَنَا ۖ وَإِلَيْهِ الْمَصِيرُ ﴿١٥

 

And they did not become divided until after knowledge had come to them out of envy among themselves; and had not a word gone forth from your Lord till an appointed term, certainly judgment would have been given between them; and those who were made to inherit the Book after them are most surely in disquieting doubt concerning it. (14) To this then go on inviting, and go on steadfastly on the right way as you are commanded, and do not follow their low desires, and say: I believe in what Allah has revealed of the Book, and I am commanded to do justice between you: Allah is our Lord and your Lord; we shall have our deeds and you shall have your deeds; no plea need there be (now) between us and you: Allah will gather us together, and to Him is the return. (15)

 

http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.shakir/42:11

The rest is said before

:censored:

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