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In the Name of God بسم الله
Ron_Burgundy

Issues with Islam

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2 hours ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

I don’t think you are really agnostic. I believe you are still Muslim, just confused and angry at Islam, for whatever reason.

Look, Islam has never done anything wrong to me. I also clearly mentioned that Islam isn’t the only religion i have a problem with. I clearly stated i don’t agree with both other abrahamic faiths, and i was pretty blunt about buddhism and hinduism as well

a

Edited by SaniyehZahra

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2 hours ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

It’s not a woman can’t look after herself in Islam. It’s so that men have some responsibility over something, to ground him, and to keep woman grounded as well, by keeping a family unit, and stability.

This isn’t to say that woman can’t take care of herself, but look at many men who assume no sense of responsibility for a woman—many leave their impregnated woman for someone else or refuse child support and equal care.

This makes sense as well, but like any religious text, God never is explicit and you have people abusing this. 

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There is an ayat as well that says a mans testimony is double that of a woman’s, and that two women should be bought incase one of them makes a mistake. Can men not make mistakes. I cant remember where it was exactly but i think it was in al baqarah 

Edited by SaniyehZahra

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26 minutes ago, SaniyehZahra said:

There is an ayat as well that says a mans testimony is double that of a woman’s, and that two women should be bought incase one of them makes a mistake. Can men not make mistakes. I cant remember where it was exactly but i think it was in al baqarah 

ayah is 2:282. it is meant in the context of business/financial dealings, debt to be specific, because men had more knowledge of such things and women didnt. this ayah is not talking about witnesses in general. only about financial/business transactions between two people. if it were something related to the law of the land, for example a witness to a robbery or a murder, such a distinction between man and woman's testimony would not be made. 

one similar issue is of a woman inheriting half that of a man. the reason for that is that a man is obliged to take care of his entire family. he is the leader of the household. so if he get 100,000 he has to spend it on the entire family. on the other hand, if the woman gets half of that, which is 50,000 she can spend it ALL on her own self and not share it with ANYONE. i think the woman is in the win here to be honest.

Edited by just a muslim

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6 minutes ago, just a muslim said:

ayah is 2:282. it is meant in the context of business/financial dealings, debt to be specific, because men had more knowledge of such things and women didnt. this ayah is not talking about witnesses in general. only about financial/business transactions between two people. if it were something related to the law of the land, for example a witness to a robbery or a murder, such a distinction between man and woman's testimony would not be made. 

one similar issue is of a woman inheriting half that of a man. the reason for that is that a man is obliged to take care of his entire family. he is the leader of the household. so if he get 100,000 he has to spend it on the entire family. on the other hand, if the woman gets half of that, which is 50,000 she can spend it ALL on her own self and not share it with ANYONE. i think the woman is in the win here to be honest.

So 2:282 is also dating back to the time of revelation. Now women obviously do have knowledge of these issues, so it takes me back to my first question. How is the quran still relevant

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3 minutes ago, SaniyehZahra said:

So 2:282 is also dating back to the time of revelation. Now women obviously do have knowledge of these issues, so it takes me back to my first question. How is the quran still relevant

my first response would be that it is relevant. but all of it doesnt have to be relevant today. and that the main issues are still relevant. the parts about stories of different prophets and their people. the parts about the unseen. the parts about how to worship. those parts of the rulings which are independent of time. like for example, no matter how advanced we get, the sun will keep rising and setting. so the prayers have to be offered 5 times a day in their prescribed times. fasting has to be done in the month of ramadan. no matter how advanced we get. there are two things. ibaadaat(worship) and muaamlaat(interactions). how we worship will never change. but interactions MIGHT change. for example, we have advanced technology today so instead of witnesses, we can use camera footage as evidence against someone. but these kinds of things is not the purpose of the quran. the purpose is to lay down a general guide. the details can change over time. 

the verses which could potentially be called "outdated", and i would not call them outdated/irrelevant for reasons below, are very few in number. 

lets take this scenario of 2:282. what follows may not be the general understanding of others here and they may disagree with me. women should not have such knowledge. women, generally speaking(generally being the key word), should not be working. they have a much much more important task. raising children. children are the future of humanity and if they are not taught and brought up correctly, we will end up in a society which claims there are more than 60 genders. there are certain professions women SHOULD go for, such as teaching and medicine, where it would be better for the "customers" to avail the services from the same gender as themselves. i wouldnt want a female family member to go to a male gynecologist for example. there are other exceptions(important to keep this in mind) as well. but the main role of a woman is that of a mother. and that role can not be over stressed. so, instead of getting knowledge about business, a woman should be focusing on raising children in the correct manner(the whole concept of babysitters is also quite dangerous in my opinion. to leave ones children in someone else's care for hours at end is something i will never approve of. all of this has been adopted in our society from the west). once we do that, a woman, generally speaking, would not have the knowledge of business/finances. we have to look at islam in its entirety. everything supports the other.

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1 hour ago, just a muslim said:

so, instead of getting knowledge about business, a woman should be focusing on raising children in the correct manner(the whole concept of babysitters is also quite dangerous in my opinion. to leave ones children in someone else's care for hours at end is something i will never approve of. all of this has been adopted in our society from the west).

What about women who are unable to raise children? If the main role of a woman is, as you say, to be a mother, and by Allah's will that ability is gone, what is her role then? Not looking to start an argument or discussion, I'm just curious as to what your perspective is on this.

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56 minutes ago, asaravastu said:

What about women who are unable to raise children? If the main role of a woman is, as you say, to be a mother, and by Allah's will that ability is gone, what is her role then? Not looking to start an argument or discussion, I'm just curious as to what your perspective is on this.

marry a man with children, and raise them. the man may be divorced or widowed, or she may choose to be a second wife. but the former is more logical. she may also, if she is financially able to, adopt a child and raise it. 

you asked me what her role is then. her wants or likes(possibly of marrying an unmarried/single man) are not taken into consideration in my response above.

edit: also, rules are always general. the rule may not necessarily be applied to an exceptional case.

Edited by just a muslim

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12 hours ago, SaniyehZahra said:

Well it is very difficult to begin.

like i said, i do believe in a creator. But i question whether God is omnibevolent, omnipotent and omniscient, reasons which will take ages to explain

I am not really certain that the quran is the authentic word kf God. Also, i believe as many seemingly violent quotes in the quran always have a context linking bck to the time it was written, why do muslims still take EVERYTHING from the quran

similarly, i dont one hundred percent agree with islam’s justice for women, but again i admit i am an ignorant person on this

You think too much with your mind, it will never give you rest.

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3 hours ago, just a muslim said:

my first response would be that it is relevant. but all of it doesnt have to be relevant today. and that the main issues are still relevant. the parts about stories of different prophets and their people. the parts about the unseen. the parts about how to worship. those parts of the rulings which are independent of time. like for example, no matter how advanced we get, the sun will keep rising and setting. so the prayers have to be offered 5 times a day in their prescribed times. fasting has to be done in the month of ramadan. no matter how advanced we get. there are two things. ibaadaat(worship) and muaamlaat(interactions). how we worship will never change. but interactions MIGHT change. for example, we have advanced technology today so instead of witnesses, we can use camera footage as evidence against someone. but these kinds of things is not the purpose of the quran. the purpose is to lay down a general guide. the details can change over time. 

the verses which could potentially be called "outdated", and i would not call them outdated/irrelevant for reasons below, are very few in number. 

lets take this scenario of 2:282. what follows may not be the general understanding of others here and they may disagree with me. women should not have such knowledge. women, generally speaking(generally being the key word), should not be working. they have a much much more important task. raising children. children are the future of humanity and if they are not taught and brought up correctly, we will end up in a society which claims there are more than 60 genders. there are certain professions women SHOULD go for, such as teaching and medicine, where it would be better for the "customers" to avail the services from the same gender as themselves. i wouldnt want a female family member to go to a male gynecologist for example. there are other exceptions(important to keep this in mind) as well. but the main role of a woman is that of a mother. and that role can not be over stressed. so, instead of getting knowledge about business, a woman should be focusing on raising children in the correct manner(the whole concept of babysitters is also quite dangerous in my opinion. to leave ones children in someone else's care for hours at end is something i will never approve of. all of this has been adopted in our society from the west). once we do that, a woman, generally speaking, would not have the knowledge of business/finances. we have to look at islam in its entirety. everything supports the other.

If you say this, what is your view on working women? So many working women have revolutionised the world, like marie curie for example

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Someone else mentioned that of course, we need the ahlulbayt just as much as the quran. But how do we know what the ahlulbayt actually said? If i am correct, only the quran is considered authentic, so from which sources can we trust the ahlulbayt? If the ahlulbayt were given that much importance, why did they not compile a book or some form of physical proof, like the quran, so there wont be any misconceptions.

 

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Just now, SaniyehZahra said:

What else are you meant to think with :blush:

but you are right, my mind is slightly psychopathic and obsessive. 

Even if someone gives you a logical and acceptable answer to your concern, there is always someone else who can criticize it and make you doubtful. It is a never ending process.

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Just now, Dhulfikar said:

Even if someone gives you a logical and acceptable answer to your concern, there is always someone else who can criticize it and make you doubtful. It is a never ending process.

True. Accept there isn’t usually a someone else. It is my own messed up mind. But yeah, safe to say it does seem like a never ending process. 

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