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SaniyehZahra

[Closed/Review]What is everyone’s problem with homosexuality?

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6 hours ago, yasahebalzaman.313 said:

Didn't i tell you that it is a waste of time and efforts...

Look, if you don’t want to answer my question, then don’t. Im sorry if i wasted your time,but i dont remember asking you specifically

and for me, it hasnt been a complete waste of time. Initially i believed gay adoption was completely fine, however i disagree now, thanks to other people who kindly explained with patience.

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6 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

@SaniyehZahra How will you prove that homosexuality is moral without empirical evidence (not that it proves homosexuality is moral)? That is my only concern.

I don't want to agree with something just because some people have certain desires for the same gender. 

And i agree with you on this as well. There isnt necessarily empirical evidence. And i also agree desire doesnt equal to agreement. But we could argue thar it is due to lack of research,

another thing is, a trend  amongst many gay men is that they tend to be slightly feminine. We can never know for sure whether they chose to be like this, however tou have many young boys that are picked on for being feminine at a young age. You would think that to avoid the bullying, those boys could just make an effort to not be feminine. But that hardly ever happens. Those boys still tend to be feminine and often gay as well

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7 hours ago, Bakir said:

I must agree with @Laayla that even though asking and researching is important (and I still learn day after day more about homosexuality), what keeps you on track is what religion brings to your life. You face incredible unhappiness by repressing such an important part of yourself, but there are also good things to focus in. Since the last time I took distance from religion due to these doubts on homosexuality (like the ones expressed by the OP), I promised myself not to ever take any step against it, because at least in my case there was much more to lose than to gain. One may find certain contempt in good friends after all.

Bismehe Ta3ala 

Assalam Alikum Brother Bakir

Sub7an'Allah, you are a free man brother.  God bless the womb that bore you.  

M3 Salamah, FE AMIN Allah 

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6 hours ago, SaniyehZahra said:

And i agree with you on this as well. There isnt necessarily empirical evidence

Yeah that is why we should not take our morality from science. Even if we there is more scientific research in the next 50 years - that will still never give us an answer whether homosexuality is morally right or not. We cannot base our morality on empirical evidence alone.

6 hours ago, SaniyehZahra said:

trend  amongst many gay men is that they tend to be slightly feminine

This is true to some extent but it is a huge misconception. There are countless masculine guys - who are all into gym etc. and they are actually gay. On the contrary, you also have very feminine guys who get offended when others call them gay - because they are actually straight.

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28 minutes ago, SaniyehZahra said:

The reason i believe incest is different from being gay is, like a said 10000 time, it isnt a sexualiy. Incest is your attracted ti a member of you family. That dorsnt mean your only attracted to people in your family

I'm not asking you if it is the same as homosexuality right now, I'm asking why you think it is wrong.

Can you give me one reason why it should be illegal if there is no kids from the relationship?  

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@SaniyehZahra If you're not sure whether homosexuality is morally right or wrong and you don't have any empirical evidence to back yourself, then what position will you take?

Will you rely on divine wisdom that  all the Abrahamic religions brought or wait another 50 years for some random thesis on "homosexuality is natural". How limited is science? Is it really worth basing our life and values on it?

Don't get me wrong, science is awesome, but It doesn't dictate my values.

Edited by ali_fatheroforphans

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2 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

I'm not asking you if it is the same as homosexuality right now, I'm asking why you think it is wrong.

Can you give me one reason why it should be illegal if there is no kids from the relationship?  

When you are gay, you are into only people of the same sex.

isn’t incest more of a “one-off” kind of thing? Youre attracted to a family member. That doesn’t you’re attracted to ONLY your family members. Of course, you and I think it is disgusting. But at the end of the day, it is up to the two people involved

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6 minutes ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

@SaniyehZahra If you're not sure whether homosexuality is morally right or wrong and you don't have any empirical evidence to back yourself, then what position will you take?

Will you rely on divine wisdom that literally all the Abrahamic religions brought or wait another 50 years for some random thesis on "homosexuality is natural". How limited is science? Is it really worth basing our life and values on it?

Don't get me wrong, science is awesome, but It doesn't dictate my values.

Yes, science is very flawed. However, again I am a very split person. Im a theist and agnostic at the same time, so the values of such ancient abrahamic religions do not convince me either

Edited by SaniyehZahra

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1 hour ago, SaniyehZahra said:

why people are still trying to bring my own faith and the entire west into it.

yeah. i'll try not to do that when attempting to answer your questions.

1 hour ago, SaniyehZahra said:

Another thing that is really bothering me is the treatment certain muslims believe should be inflicted upon homosexuals.

and what treatment is that?

1 hour ago, SaniyehZahra said:

i still also don’t see what makes homosexuality worse than adultery

what makes you think others/muslims believe homosexuality is worse than adultery? im not saying anything as to whether it actually is worse or not. just want to know what your views are based upon. 

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5 hours ago, just a muslim said:

and what treatment is that?

7 hours ago, SaniyehZahra said:

@yasahebalzaman.313 mentioned the infamous sistani fatva in which he calls upon the persecution of all gays.

In terms of the adultery, people have literally said on here “homosexuality is worse then adultery” 

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6 hours ago, SaniyehZahra said:

Yes. From a completely neutral point of view it would. Now please bring forward this person, if they exist

There is a whole community with them, its called "GSA" Genetic Sexual Attraction.

I am not going to link their filthy websites and spread it here.

Here is a quote from one of their members in a self biography, please pay attention to the bold sentence:

A few years ago  my dad broke off the relationship with me, he was afraid of us getting caught out, and he also still felt that it was somehow wrong for us to be together. Yet I loved him and he loved me, both in the romantic sense of the word and as family. I’ve tried non-incest relationships and they just don’t feel right to me, half the bond is missing… the family aspect of the bond, and so they feel almost superficial to me in the sense that they lack the same intimacy. Nobody has come even close to what my dad was to me. I still miss him so much and hope one day he has a change of heart, because even after so much time I am still in love with him.

Theres even a term for it:

Fully Consang – You’ve always known you lack Westermarck Effect, because you’ve never shared other peoples disgust whenever incest was mentioned. You may not have understood the significance of this at first, but you did the moment you fell in love with a relative because it all fell into place for you. You’ve tried regular relationships and always felt something wasn’t quite right, you sometimes told yourself ‘there must be more to love than this’ because it left you feeling empty inside, and with no obvious reason. The moment your relative became more than just family, you understood instinctively that this was RIGHT, even though society told you otherwise, the empty feeling was gone and for the first time you felt truly whole. Now you’ve experienced consanguinamory, you know you can never go back to regular relationships because they just feel so painfully awkward, not to mention hollow! You’re exclusively attracted to family members.

One of the quotes:

I once thought I was consang-flexible, but it turns out that I’m 100% consang. To be honest, the thought of another regular relationship is highly unappealing to me, which is why I don’t engage in them any more.

We can thus conclude that YES, there are people out there who are solely attracted to family, which means its a sexuality/orientation, which means you are now okay with incest according to your own argument, yes?

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5 hours ago, SaniyehZahra said:

However, again I am a bery split person. Im a theist and agnostic at the same time, so the values of such ancient abrahamic religions do not convince me either

Okay, that is fine. I guess you need to do more research and inshallah find the truth eventually. You need to first establish whether Islam is a true religion or a man-made religion. 

It's good that you at least established that homosexuality is not necessarily moral - as in there is a possibility that it could be immoral.

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27 minutes ago, SaniyehZahra said:

When you are gay, you are into only people of the same sex.

isn’t incest more of a “one-off” kind of thing? Youre attracted to a family member. That doesn’t you’re attracted to ONLY your family members. Of course, you and I think it is disgusting. But at the end of the day, it is up to the two people involved

Two questions, only on incest:

1) why do you think it is disgusting?

2) should it be legal or not? Why, or why not?

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5 hours ago, IbnSina said:

There is a whole community with them, its called "GSA" Genetic Sexual Attraction.

I am not going to link their filthy websites and spread it here.

Here is a quote from one of their members in a self biography, please pay attention to the bold sentence:

A few years ago  my dad broke off the relationship with me, he was afraid of us getting caught out, and he also still felt that it was somehow wrong for us to be together. Yet I loved him and he loved me, both in the romantic sense of the word and as family. I’ve tried non-incest relationships and they just don’t feel right to me, half the bond is missing… the family aspect of the bond, and so they feel almost superficial to me in the sense that they lack the same intimacy. Nobody has come even close to what my dad was to me. I still miss him so much and hope one day he has a change of heart, because even after so much time I am still in love with him.

Theres even a term for it:

Fully Consang – You’ve always known you lack Westermarck Effect, because you’ve never shared other peoples disgust whenever incest was mentioned. You may not have understood the significance of this at first, but you did the moment you fell in love with a relative because it all fell into place for you. You’ve tried regular relationships and always felt something wasn’t quite right, you sometimes told yourself ‘there must be more to love than this’ because it left you feeling empty inside, and with no obvious reason. The moment your relative became more than just family, you understood instinctively that this was RIGHT, even though society told you otherwise, the empty feeling was gone and for the first time you felt truly whole. Now you’ve experienced consanguinamory, you know you can never go back to regular relationships because they just feel so painfully awkward, not to mention hollow! You’re exclusively attracted to family members.

One of the quotes:

I once thought I was consang-flexible, but it turns out that I’m 100% consang. To be honest, the thought of another regular relationship is highly unappealing to me, which is why I don’t engage in them any more.

We can thus conclude that YES, there are people out there who are solely attracted to family, which means its a sexuality/orientation, which means you are now okay with incest according to your own argument, yes?

Well, actually then as much as from a personalviewpoint, it is disgusting because i could never even think of a distant cousin in that way. However, i agree with you now. I admit i have been wrong about incest and homosexuality,thanks to you finally making sense.

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8 hours ago, IbnSina said:

You know my friend got fired from his work because he didnt agree with the mainstream view on homosexuality. They basically asked him if he agrees with islams view on homosexuality and when he said yes they fired him. 

They want to force anyone who does not already agree with them, they speak of freedom of speech but that only applies when your speech aligns with their opinions and world view.

Its funny when you think about it, 30 years ago where I live, being gay would be classified as a mental illness, 30 years later and they are teaching your son that its okay to kiss your best buddy even if his a guy and now we have gay couples in Disney cartoons meant for kids. If this is not pushing an agenda then I do not know what is.

You know one of my other friends got called by his boss warning him because someone had tipped him about his facebook views on the occupation of Palestine and that the actions of israel were illegal, he wanted to warn him that the company does not accept "anti semitism" as if disagreeing with the actions of the illegal state of israel makes you hate semites (which includes himself as he is an arab). Would he have gotten a warning call if he was a strong supporter of israel? No.

You see the freedom of the west?

It's the freedom of his boss to do whatever he wants. It's also the freedom of a baker not to serve a gay wedding. That's the essence of freedom.

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1 minute ago, It's me hello said:

It's the freedom of his boss to do whatever he wants. It's also the freedom of a baker not to serve a gay wedding. That's the essence of freedom.

Yes, but have you heard the saying "practice what you teach"?

If I say that everybody has the right to say anything without getting punished but then I punish those who say what I dont want to hear does that sound like right to you?

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Just now, IbnSina said:

Yes, but have you heard the saying "practice what you teach"?

If I say that everybody has the right to say anything without getting punished but then I punish those who say what I dont want to hear does that sound like right to you?

If you bring it into a business that you do not own, then that sounds about right.

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Just now, IbnSina said:

Its hypocrisy regardless of if your the owner of a company or an employee.

You practice what you preach or you do not preach.

He's not allowed to be a hypocrite? He's the one who created the business by risking his own money, and if he wants to kick all people of one race out; then go ahead and do it. It gives him a bad image, and he loses an employee. It's not the governments job to become the hypocrite police.

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1 minute ago, It's me hello said:

He's not allowed to be a hypocrite? He's the one who created the business by risking his own money, and if he wants to kick all people of one race out; then go ahead and do it. It gives him a bad image, and he loses an employee. It's not the governments job to become the hypocrite police.

He can be what he wishes to be, but a hypocrite is a bad thing to be regardless.

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Just now, IbnSina said:

He can be what he wishes to be, but a hypocrite is a bad thing to be regardless.

So we can end on agreement. 

Being a hypocrite is stupid. :D

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6 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

is it just because you want for yourself such a religion which accomodate homosexuality? 

It's not this. I can guarantee that. OP wants a secular argument, so therefore, a RATIONAL argument for why it's bad.

Not this:

"Here in this hadith..."

"In the quran"

"God said"

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2 hours ago, It's me hello said:

It's the freedom of his boss to do whatever he wants. It's also the freedom of a baker not to serve a gay wedding. That's the essence of freedom.

This is actually a case pending in the Supreme Court. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/05/us/politics/supreme-court-same-sex-marriage-cake.html

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46 minutes ago, Laayla said:

Yeah. I hope they allow it. I was arguing in a point of principle.

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1 hour ago, It's me hello said:

It's not this. I can guarantee that. OP wants a secular argument, so therefore, a RATIONAL argument for why it's bad.

Not this:

"Here in this hadith..."

"In the quran"

"God said"

"God said so" for a reason. And some of them have been posted in the chat. I was just explaining why it's such a big deal.

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4 minutes ago, gandabacha7241 said:

"God said so" for a reason. And some of them have been posted in the chat. I was just explaining why it's such a big deal.

Yeah. Some people aren't doing it though. That's who I was addressing. 

I love your name BTW! hahahaha

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18 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

Why you are so keen to discuss "fahishaat"? Your decision for chosing any religion is still pending, is it just because you want for yourself such a religion which accomodate homosexuality? 

is discussing fahishaat not allowed now?

I find it really disrespectful that certain people are saying this. In my opinion, i have been fairly open minded. I have admitted when i am wrong, and agreed with the Islamic take to some degree.

while i understand the take is “Islam is perfect, Muslims aren’t” the reason why i began questioning religion in the first place was because of The arrogance, judgement and rudeness A lot  of muslims show. And then that lead me onto trying to delve deeper into the religion itself, which obviously hasn’t helped me either

 

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13 hours ago, Laayla said:

This is also unfair. At the end if the day everyone does have a right to say and do whatever they want. But what if the guy said “i refuse to make cakes for all black people or biracial couples” would that be acceptable?

but i do understand that this is a violation of religious freedom. It is difficult because God never really told us specifically what to do if you own a cake business and a gay couple wants you to make a cake

Edited by SaniyehZahra

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3 minutes ago, SaniyehZahra said:

This is also unfair. At the end if the day everyone does have a right to say and do whatever they want. But what if the guy said “i refuse to make cakes for all black people or biracial couples” would that be acceptable?

Yes that's acceptable, because the person who denied all the black people lost loads of potential money, and that can potentially lead them out of business.

4 minutes ago, SaniyehZahra said:

but i do understand that this is a violation of religious freedom. It is difficult because God never really told us specifically what to do if you own a cake business and a gay couple wants you to make a cake

It's a matter of personal choice, not even about religion.

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6 minutes ago, It's me hello said:

that's acceptable, because the person who denied all the black people lost loads of potential money, and that can potentially lead them out of business.

Wouldn’t denying all gay people also make them lose lots of potential money

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1 minute ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

@SaniyehZahra Do you now think homosexuality is morally wrong?

 

THAT i still haven’t decided. I do think in terms of same-sex parents, there is something wrong with that. But i still believe everyone has a choice to do whatever makes them happy

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1 minute ago, Salsabeel said:

Not really expecting from a female whose nick is "Saniyeh Zahra"...
 

I’m not really sure what your point is, but saniyeh is a persian name, i come from a persian background. I was also raised muslim...

Islam doesn’t prevent dialogue about ANY topic from what i know, like sayyid ammar says in this discussion

 

 

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1 minute ago, SaniyehZahra said:

but saniyeh is a persian name

I know that and its meaning too.

4 minutes ago, SaniyehZahra said:

Islam doesn’t prevent dialogue about ANY topic from what i know, like sayyid ammar says in this discussion

And I have just asked you why you're so keen in discussing what we understand as "fahishaat" (indecencies)? Are you a gay or homosexual?

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