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In the Name of God بسم الله
sefket83

Is God completely good in Islam?

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10 hours ago, Quisant said:

God, is usually described by believers as Omnipotent, Omniscient, and Benevolent 

Benevolence is the desire for good, the desire that there not be evil, it implies the will to remove evil.

An All-powerful God CAN create a sufferingless existence, therefore THIS existence is NOT NECESSARY. You believe in a God who created unnecessary suffering.

The visible amount of misery/suffering/pain in this world is really not compatible with the God in the benevolent form described by organised religions.

If your position includes an omnipotent, omniscient God creating people, then he's ultimately responsible for their behaviour. 
 

 

Always Jam tomorrow...

 

According to Organised Religions God exists, and always acts toward the greatest good.
1. God is Benevolent.
2. God is Almighty.
3. God is Omniscient.
4. If God is all Benevolent, Almighty and Omniscient then there is no evil.
5. There is suffering/evil.

The above set of propositions in inconsistent, i.e. they cannot all be true; it is impossible that they are all true.

If God is really Benevolent then He must eliminate evil and suffering, if He is Omniscient He knows how to eliminate it and if He is Almighty he can eliminate it.

Yet Evil/suffering exists and has always existed ...no lesson has ever changed anything. 

wslm.

*
 

 

8 hours ago, Quisant said:

 

I don't need to prove or disprove anything, I never tried to prove that God is evil.  you are putting words in my mouth. 

What I said is:   An All-powerful God CAN create a sufferingless existence, therefore THIS existence is NOT NECESSARY. You believe in a God who created unnecessary suffering.

If there is free will in Heaven where there is no evil or suffering, then it cannot be true that God lets evil exist because it is a required side-effect of free will.
So, God *can* create a world without suffering.
 

 

If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with a parable...

:)

As I said earlier: If your position includes an omnipotent, omniscient God creating people, then he's ultimately responsible for their behaviour. Theology claims that God is the cause of all causes.

A 'Creator' that is not in control or fully aware of the future consequences of his creative act is not a God, he is an irresponsible, capricious entity.

If a God  is benevolent, He would always choose the path that causes most good and the least suffering. 

A creation with evil and sin and pain is unarguably worse than a creation of greatness and perfection.

An almighty creator who desires the maximal well-being of humans certainly does not exist, because an almighty creator who is unable to accomplish goals without human suffering cannot be Omnipotent or Benevolent.

Anyway my thanks to ali_fatheroforphans and to you for talking to me, I can see this will go nowhere but circles...so I'll call it a day.

Best wishes

*

God can be almighty in that sense that he is in control of everything but that does not make him able to do anything. One can then ask the question why God allows evil and the answer to that is because he uses evil for good purposes.

I do not know arabic but it seems as both shia and sunni agree that God is all wise (all good) so almighty means that nothing happens without his permission. This is a speculation.

Edited by sefket83

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12 hours ago, Quisant said:

An All-powerful God CAN create a sufferingless existence, therefore THIS existence is NOT NECESSARY. You believe in a God who created unnecessary suffering.

There is just so many things wrong with this statement that I don't know where to begin.

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On 12/15/2017 at 4:01 PM, Quisant said:

 You believe in a God who created unnecessary suffering.

Do you not see how necessary a world of pains and troubles is to school an intelligence and make it a soul?

Suffering has been stronger than all other teaching, and has taught me to understand what your heart used to be. I have been bent and broken, but - I hope - into a better shape.

 

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1 hour ago, SaniyehZahra said:

I will never understand. Why does Allah invoke suffering upon children? For example children that are born with horrible diseases that cause them pain

And what awaits that child after life that goes so quickly ends?

Some times, some people are used as trials for other people.

For example, a baby that is born completely handicapped mentally, is he held for any sins or is he guarantied jannah already? Perhaps his soul had already proven himself worthy of jannah before entering the body of a human?

Such a child would be a trial and a test for the parents.

[25:20]And We have not sent before you any messengers but they most surely ate food and went about in the markets; and We have made some of you a trial for others; will you bear patiently? And your Lord is ever Seeing.

Edited by IbnSina

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9 hours ago, SaniyehZahra said:

I will never understand. Why does Allah invoke suffering upon children? For example children that are born with horrible diseases that cause them pain

Have you considered Human Induced conditions and causes. There are laws, if one is to jump off the cliff, he/she is defying the Natural Laws and consequences can't be blamed on god.

Some Causes of Birth defects,

family history of birth defects or other genetic disorders

drug use, alcohol consumption, or smoking during pregnancy

maternal age of 35 years or older

inadequate prenatal care

untreated viral or bacterial infections, including sexually transmitted infections

use of certain high-risk medications, such as isotretinoin and lithium

working during pregenancy

use of contraceptives and birth control pills or methods -pre pregnancy lifestyle etc..

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9 hours ago, SaniyehZahra said:

I will never understand. Why does Allah invoke suffering upon children? For example children that are born with horrible diseases that cause them pain

Now in light of evolution, a mindless undirected process. You would say natural selection is the cause ? how and for what benefit?

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زُیِّنَ لِلنَّاسِ حُبُّ الشَّهَوَاتِ مِنَ النِّسَاء وَالْبَنِینَ وَالْقَنَاطِیرِ الْمُقَنطَرَةِ مِنَ الذَّهَبِ وَالْفِضَّةِ وَالْخَیْلِ الْمُسَوَّمَةِ وَالأَنْعَامِ وَالْحَرْثِ ذَلِکَ مَتَاعُ الْحَیَاةِ الدُّنْیَا وَاللّهُ عِندَهُ حُسْنُ الْمَآبِ

The love of desires, of women and sons and hoarded treasures of gold and silver and well bred horses and cattle and tilth, is made to seem fair to men; this is the provision of the life of this world; and Allah is He with Whom is the good goal (of life). (14)

Al-i-Imran 14

وَاللَّـهُ جَعَلَ لَكُم مِّنْ أَنفُسِكُمْ أَزْوَاجًا وَجَعَلَ لَكُم مِّنْ أَزْوَاجِكُم بَنِينَ وَحَفَدَةً وَرَزَقَكُم مِّنَ الطَّيِّبَاتِ ۚ أَفَبِالْبَاطِلِ يُؤْمِنُونَ وَبِنِعْمَتِ اللَّـهِ هُمْ يَكْفُرُونَ ﴿٧٢

 And Allah has made wives for you from among yourselves, and has given you sons and grandchildren from your wives, and has given you of the good things; is it then in the falsehood that they believe while it is in the favor of Allah that they disbelieve? (72

An-Nahl  72

لْمَالُ وَالْبَنُونَ زِينَةُ الْحَيَاةِ الدُّنْيَا ۖ وَالْبَاقِيَاتُ الصَّالِحَاتُ خَيْرٌ عِندَ رَبِّكَ ثَوَابًا وَخَيْرٌ أَمَلًا ﴿٤٦﴾

Wealth and children are an adornment of the life of this world; and the ever-abiding, the good works, are better with your Lord in reward and better in expectation. (46)

Al-Kahf 46

وَاعْلَمُوا أَنَّمَا أَمْوَالُكُمْ وَأَوْلَادُكُمْ فِتْنَةٌ وَأَنَّ اللَّـهَ عِندَهُ أَجْرٌ عَظِيمٌ﴿٢٨

And know that your property and your children are a temptation, and that Allah is He with Whom there is a mighty reward. (28)

Al-Anfal 28

it explains that all things that we achieve in this world is temporary & for test 

we must pray to have good wife & children but they must make us ready for better thing after that.

 

 

 

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11 hours ago, S.M.H.A. said:

Have you considered Human Induced conditions and causes. There are laws, if one is to jump off the cliff, he/she is defying the Natural Laws and consequences can't be blamed on god.

Some Causes of Birth defects,

family history of birth defects or other genetic disorders

drug use, alcohol consumption, or smoking during pregnancy

maternal age of 35 years or older

inadequate prenatal care

untreated viral or bacterial infections, including sexually transmitted infections

use of certain high-risk medications, such as isotretinoin and lithium

working during pregenancy

use of contraceptives and birth control pills or methods -pre pregnancy lifestyle etc..

But then that links back to god being omnipotent and all loving. With all due respect, how can someone all loving and powerful at the same time want an innocent little child to suffer? 

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19 hours ago, IbnSina said:

And what awaits that child after life that goes so quickly ends?

Some times, some people are used as trials for other people.

For example, a baby that is born completely handicapped mentally, is he held for any sins or is he guarantied jannah already? Perhaps his soul had already proven himself worthy of jannah before entering the body of a human?

Such a child would be a trial and a test for the parents.

[25:20]And We have not sent before you any messengers but they most surely ate food and went about in the markets; and We have made some of you a trial for others; will you bear patiently? And your Lord is ever Seeing.

But I just find it so unfair that innocent little children are being born with pain or have some sort of pain, just so Allah can test their parents? How is that fair on a child.

And what about things like natural disasters eg earthquakes? So much suffering happens because of that,including suffering of children. Why does God allow this

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1 hour ago, SaniyehZahra said:

But then that links back to god being omnipotent and all loving. With all due respect, how can someone all loving and powerful at the same time want an innocent little child to suffer? 

You do not feel that Humans have any responsibility, you will put the entire profession out of business(Lawyers, will not like this reasoning). 

No rational Judge will ever buy this kind of reasoning, it gods fault not mine.

Lets' try with Nature and Science- Question you asked, how do you answer in light of adaptations and natural selection. 

Edited by S.M.H.A.

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9 minutes ago, S.M.H.A. said:

You do not feel that Humans have any responsibility, you will put the entire profession out of business(Lawyers, will not like this reasoning). 

No rational Judge will ever buy this kind of reasoning, it gods fault not mine.

Lets' try with Nature and Science- Question you asked, how do you answer in light of adaptations and natural selection. 

I’m sorry but I don’t really understand what you are saying. I am talking about suffering of children that is not inflicted by Human. I am not talking about human responsibility

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19 minutes ago, SaniyehZahra said:

suffering of children that is not inflicted by Human. 

How do you know its not inflicted by humans/lifestyle choices, etc..-?

family history of birth defects or other genetic disorders

drug use, alcohol consumption, or smoking during pregnancy

maternal age of 35 years or older

inadequate prenatal care

untreated viral or bacterial infections, including sexually transmitted infections

use of certain high-risk medications, such as isotretinoin and lithium

working during pregenancy

use of contraceptives and birth control pills or methods -pre pregnancy lifestyle etc..

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4 minutes ago, S.M.H.A. said:

How do you know its not inflicted by humans/lifestyle choices, etc..-?

family history of birth defects or other genetic disorders

drug use, alcohol consumption, or smoking during pregnancy

maternal age of 35 years or older

inadequate prenatal care

untreated viral or bacterial infections, including sexually transmitted infections

use of certain high-risk medications, such as isotretinoin and lithium

working during pregenancy

use of contraceptives and birth control pills or methods -pre pregnancy lifestyle etc..

Actually brother this is a really good point. But then this is where i begin to doubt whether God really is all powerful and all loving. An all loving and omnipotent person surely wouldn’t let a CHILD suffer?

and as for some of them, i don’t really see how some of them are Moral evil. For example untreated disease, how is that anyones fault? 

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4 hours ago, SaniyehZahra said:

But I just find it so unfair that innocent little children are being born with pain or have some sort of pain, just so Allah can test their parents? How is that fair on a child.

And what about things like natural disasters eg earthquakes? So much suffering happens because of that,including suffering of children. Why does God allow this

Who said life is fair?

Judgement day is fair, who goes to jannah and who goes to hell is fair. How long is your stay in this dunya and how long is your stay in the afterlife?

Why do you assume that a place meant for trails and hardship and tests that will be over before you know it should be fair?

Have you studied the history of Imam Hussein(as)? Was it fair what happened to him? None of the Imams(as) nor any of the Prophets(pbut) had easy lives, they all went thru trials and tribulations.

You expect things based on what exactly and what is the need for these assumptions and expectations when Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى the creator of time, the universe and everything in it Himself says:

[90:4] We have certainly created man into hardship.

And what can we do with these hardships? What should we do with them?

 

Edited by IbnSina

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18 hours ago, SaniyehZahra said:

Actually brother this is a really good point.

I don't really know what you mean by above. Rest of the post I am not concerned with at this point.

Question was/is: How do you know its not inflicted by humans/lifestyle choices, etc..-?

Are you able to differentiate between what was caused by Humans and what was not caused by Humans? 

Before you start a lawsuit, you need to present a clear and concise case.

*****

If you want to only talk about God. 

A simple basic logical/rational/academic/intellectual question.

1) How is your inferior intellect able to question, demand and judge the  Higher Intellect?

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6 hours ago, S.M.H.A. said:

I don't really know what you mean by above. Rest of the post I am not concerned with at this point.

Question was/is: How do you know its not inflicted by humans/lifestyle choices, etc..-?

Are you able to differentiate between what was caused by Humans and what was not caused by Humans? 

Before you start a lawsuit, you need to present a clear and concise case.

*****

If you want to only talk about God. 

A simple basic logical/rational/academic/intellectual question.

1) How is your inferior intellect able to question, demand and judge the  Higher Intellect?

Brother I understand to what you are saying, and yes, our intellect is inferior. But that shouldn’t stop us from asking questions,right?

and my question, is still that there are certain things, for example earthquakes,that are not human inflicted. I undersrand these are meant to be tests from God to the victims, as well as seeing who will help etc. Now if it was only adults and mature people involved, i would umderstand. But little children? They are innocent, why must they be put through hardship and trial

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16 hours ago, SaniyehZahra said:

Brother I understand to what you are saying, and yes, our intellect is inferior. But that shouldn’t stop us from asking questions,right?

 

I am a Virtual Entity & Layman. I can’t answer any of your Religious questions. I can only give you my understanding.

*****

When I asked:

A simple basic logical/rational/academic/intellectual question.

1) How is your inferior intellect able to question, demand and judge the  Higher Intellect?

Here “able to question” means Challenge, deny etc.

Above Has nothing to do with asking a basic question to clarify or to better understand something. No one is saying that people can’t ask basic fundamental questions to clarify their understanding.

Another thing is that most of your arguments here and other places are classic red flags- You may have been reading these on the net,

Atheists can't Deny/Disprove God.

So, they usually go with attacking the attributes ..usual song is omnipotent, Omniscient, All Merciful, Benevolent so how come ……can't do this or that ...why Evil…..

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1 minute ago, S.M.H.A. said:

I am a Virtual Entity & Layman. I can’t answer any of your Religious questions. I can only give you my understanding.

*****

When I asked:

A simple basic logical/rational/academic/intellectual question.

1) How is your inferior intellect able to question, demand and judge the  Higher Intellect?

Here “able to question” means Challenge, deny etc.

Above Has nothing to do with asking a basic question to clarify or to better understand something. No one is saying that people can’t ask basic fundamental questions to clarify their understanding.

Another thing is that most of your arguments here and other places are classic red flags- You may have been reading these on the net,

Atheists can't Deny/Disprove God.

So, they usually go with attacking the attributes ..usual song is omnipotent, Omniscient, All Merciful, Benevolent so how come ……can't do this or that ...why Evil…..

I definitely believe in a higher creation. In my opinion, atheism makes even less sense to me. There is no way the world could have just come abouts, there has to be a creatir or a superior being controlling everything. But the thing that i dont understand is the attributes of this “God”. They just dont add up to me, personally. 

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13 minutes ago, SaniyehZahra said:

I definitely believe in a higher creation. In my opinion, atheism makes even less sense to me. There is no way the world could have just come abouts, there has to be a creatir or a superior being controlling everything. But the thing that i dont understand is the attributes of this “God”. They just dont add up to me, personally. 

“O ‘He’ of whom no one knows What ‘He’(God) is, not How ‘He’ is, nor Where ‘He is, nor in Which direction, ‘He’ is except ‘He’ Himself”

Imam Ali ibn Abu Talib(as)

*****

In Secular terms and using a secular example. Everything is in the Prospectus and ALL has been Disclosed. Full Disclosure. So, Nothing is hidden that comes as a surprise. 

We are Created beings, Will be Tested with health, wealth, children, spouse etc....So, when The Atheist come to us with these arguments - They are not bringing anything that has not been disclosed to us already. We have been informed that this will happen.  Take it or leave it. You are free to do that. But what you can't do is have them play mind games. 

So, read the Book, to understand ....Why you are here and where you are going. 
What's your purpose --All this has been already disclosed - No surprises here...

So, I would start with Basics- because these attribute arguments - are just doubt creators- can't be used to deny/disprove God. 

Edited by S.M.H.A.

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5 minutes ago, S.M.H.A. said:

“O ‘He’ of whom no one knows What ‘He’(God) is, not How ‘He’ is, nor Where ‘He is, nor in Which direction, ‘He’ is except ‘He’ Himself”

Imam Ali ibn Abu Talib(as)

*****

In Secular terms and using a secular example. Everything is in the Prospectus and ALL as been Disclosed. Full Disclosure. So, Nothing is hidden that comes as a surprise. 

We are Created beings, Will be Tested with health, wealth, children, spouse etc....So, when The Atheist come to us with these arguments - They are not bringing anything that has not been disclosed to us already. We have been informed that this will happen.  Take it or leave it. You are free to do that. But what you can't do is have play mind games. 

So, read the Book, to understand ....Why you are here and where you are going. 
What's your purpose --All this has been already disclosed - No surprises here...

Like i said, i have EXTREMELY conflicted views, so i apologise in advance. Again, i do believe in A creator. But not necessarily one that is omniscient, omnipotent and omnibevolent all at the same time, because logically with what is going on in the world, they just dont seem to add up

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30 minutes ago, S.M.H.A. said:

I am a Virtual Entity & Layman. I can’t answer any of your Religious questions. I can only give you my understanding.

*****

When I asked:

A simple basic logical/rational/academic/intellectual question.

1) How is your inferior intellect able to question, demand and judge the  Higher Intellect?

Here “able to question” means Challenge, deny etc.

Above Has nothing to do with asking a basic question to clarify or to better understand something. No one is saying that people can’t ask basic fundamental questions to clarify their understanding.

Another thing is that most of your arguments here and other places are classic red flags- You may have been reading these on the net,

Atheists can't Deny/Disprove God.

So, they usually go with attacking the attributes ..usual song is omnipotent, Omniscient, All Merciful, Benevolent so how come ……can't do this or that ...why Evil…..

 

Nobody is judging or questioning a Higher Intellect, which has never been proven to exist.

What one is questioning is the flawed interpretations that clerics and priests, without proper or proven divine mandate, choose to attribute to divinities of their own fantasy.

Remember Amun · Anubis · Aten · Horus · Isis · Osiris · etc.. or maybe  Zeus, Poseidon, Hera, Demeter, Hestia, Athena, Apollo, Artemis, Dionysus, Hermes etc.. Viking Gods, Aztec Gods. And many many more.

All that priests need is for you to believe them and they will exploit your mind and your purse. They have done so throughout history.

You will fail to understand even this..

*

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Full Disclosure:

 

قَالَ فَبِمَا أَغْوَيْتَنِي لَأَقْعُدَنَّ لَهُمْ صِرَاطَكَ الْمُسْتَقِيمَ {16}

[Pickthal 7:16] He said: Now, because Thou hast sent me astray, verily I shall lurk in ambush for them on Thy Right Path.

 

وَقَاسَمَهُمَا إِنِّي لَكُمَا لَمِنَ النَّاصِحِينَ {21}

[Pickthal 7:21] And he swore unto them (saying): Lo! I am a sincere adviser unto you.

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53 minutes ago, Quisant said:

What one is questioning is the flawed interpretations that clerics and priests, without proper or proven divine mandate, choose to attribute to divinities of their own fantasy.

Remember Amun · Anubis · Aten · Horus · Isis · Osiris · etc.. or maybe  Zeus, Poseidon, Hera, Demeter, Hestia, Athena, Apollo, Artemis, Dionysus, Hermes etc.. Viking Gods, Aztec Gods. And many many more.

All that priests need is for you to believe them and they will exploit your mind and your purse. They have done so throughout history.

You will fail to understand even this..

*

Mixing Judeo-Christian issues. Some holy man swindled you out of your lunch money. Not my issue. 

What are you trying to prove with extinct created gods? 

Have you ever paid Taxes to the State? 

Edited by S.M.H.A.

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1 hour ago, Quisant said:

*

You have been informed. 

Quote

An atheist entered the presence of al-Rida (as) when he had some people in his presence.

Therefore, Abu al-Hasan al-Rida (as) asked him: O man! Can you not see that if your view is correct, and it is absolutely not, then we are equal, despite our prayers, fasting, alms-giving, and the beliefs we profess have not harmed us?

The atheist remained silent.

Then Abu al-Hasan (as) added: However, if our view is the correct one, which is certainly the case, then you are lost, and we are saved.

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235051040-atheism-everywhere/?page=8&tab=comments#comment-3065892

This must be true:

Driving rationality from irrationality is logically incoherent- a severe Delusion

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235052378-the-delusions-of-atheists/?page=4&tab=comments#comment-3103828

 

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On 12/13/2017 at 11:51 AM, Quisant said:

In the Quraan: SHAKIR: 113.001 Say: I seek refuge in the Lord of the dawn, 113.002:  From the evil of what He has created,

"Allah is the Creator of all things, and He is, over all things, Disposer of affairs."[Quran 39:62]

*

Just because someone has created something which has a bad aspect, does that force the bad aspect onto the creator?

Also, in order to give humans free will, there MUST be both good and evil. Obviously, Allah has created humans to do good, but would it be wise to blame Allah for the humans resorting to evil? He has left humans to do evil because, if he does not, it would remove free will, thus causing the test to be void and useless.

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FYI:

Quote

Concerning suffering there are mainly two fundamental questions.

The first is, what is the origin of suffering and from where does it emerge?

The other is whether agony and pain are concordant with the justice and mercy of God.  

All the religious people of the world should answer these two questions.

If God is the Lone Creator of the world and the Manifestation of goodness, then where have all these miseries come from?

Can the God of Goodness be the agent of misery and just as He creates, can also destroy? ......

Full Text

The Philosophy behind Suffering

https://www.al-islam.org/imam-khomeini-ethics-and-politics-sayyid-hasan-islami/philosophy-behind-suffering

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If there was no free will, life would be completely determined by God, hence pointless because it wouldn’t be an effect of our decisions, then why create life in the first place? Therefore God created a life with purpose and worthy, rather than one in which our decisions play no role and is fully determined. For there to be free will we must be capable of both moral good and moral evil (the absence of good).

If an all-good God has a very good reason  (creating and worthy life with purpose namely free will) for allowing the absence of good (evil) then there is no paradox because the concept of allowing the absence of good for a good reason does not contradict His all-good nature.

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