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In the Name of God بسم الله
sefket83

Is God completely good in Islam?

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31 minutes ago, Quisant said:

 

To an Atheist/Agnostic. What is the relevance of Good and Evil. These concepts do not exist in your domain. Good/Evil are same thing. A thing could be good if it benefits you today, and the same thing could be evil it not advantages to you tomorrow. ( Its all relative to you). 

So, I do not even see why and Atheist/Agnostic be so concerned with this Concept? 

Can you provide a logical/rational reason for it? 

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3 hours ago, sefket83 said:

If God is omnipotent and completly good then there would be no suffering. What do you say?

Suffering is caused by man to each other. Not by Allah.

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4 hours ago, Quisant said:

A better teacher is the one who teaches the exact same lesson without resorting to the use of pain/suffering/discomfort, etc etc.

Means a female give birth to her offspring without experiencing pain or discomfort. Human eat anything without giving pain or discomfort to others (no need to kill any animal). 

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3 hours ago, Quisant said:

In the Quraan: SHAKIR: 113.001 Say: I seek refuge in the Lord of the dawn, 113.002:  From the evil of what He has created,

*

Quran uses terms that are different from modern philosopy. Quran is Book of Guidance and is not your philosophy book.
This verse is not intended for ones who is not accepting God in the first place.

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4 hours ago, Quisant said:

A better teacher is the one who teaches the exact same lesson without resorting to the use of pain/suffering/discomfort, etc etc.

Is it possible? For example, is it possible to understand the value of health without expriencing any disease?

By the way, we should distinguish between pains caused by humans and those caused by divine ruls.

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6 hours ago, Quisant said:

In the Bible: I form the light, and create darkness: make peace, and create evil : I the LORD do all these things.(Isaiah 45:7)

In the Quraan: SHAKIR: 113.001 Say: I seek refuge in the Lord of the dawn, 113.002:  From the evil of what He has created,

"Allah is the Creator of all things, and He is, over all things, Disposer of affairs."[Quran 39:62]

*

From the evil of what he has created.

If he has created goodness in all creatures but then they turn away from goodness - then obviously we have evil.

Anyways refer to this site to know the context behind this verse. You do lovr cherry picking.

https://www.al-islam.org/enlightening-commentary-light-holy-quran-vol-20/surah-falaq-chapter-113

 

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@ali_fatheroforphans @sefket83,

If we agree on the premise that an omnipotent God is naturally and ultimately good, then evil is merely the absence of good.  E.g. Murder is the absence of justice, cheating is the absence of fairness, ignorance is absence of knowledge, etc..

Knowledge, justice and fairness are attributes of God but not ignorance,  injustice and cheating because an omnipotent God that is good cannot contradict Himself and create evil. Again, evil is the lack of goodness and comes from its absence; Unnatural, defective and void, it comes from a source that is fallible and not omnipotent, mankind. Evil by itself, is nonexistent as Mutahhari once said. 

Look at this:

Quote

 Being and non-being do not comprise two separate groups in the external  world. Non-being is nothing and emptiness and cannot occupy a particular place side by side with being. But in the natural world, which is the world of potentiality and actuality, movement and evolution, and contradiction and opposition, wherever there are forms of being, forms of non-being also apply. When we speak of “blindness” we should not think that “blindness” is a specific thing and a tangible reality that exists in the eye of a blind person. Instead, “blindness” is nothing but the lack of “sight” and it itself has no reality.

Good and evil, too, are like being and non-being; in fact, fundamentally good is the same as being and evil is the same as non-being. Wherever we speak of evil, there is definitely a non-being and lack [of something] involved. “Evil” is either itself of the form of non-being, or it is a being that necessitates a form of non-being; that is, it is a being that, inasmuch as it is itself, is good, and it is evil inasmuch as it necessitates a non-being; and it is only evil because it necessitates a non-being, not for any other reason. We consider ignorance, poverty, and death to be evil. These by their essence are non-being. We consider poisonous and dangerous animals, bacteria, and afflictions to be evil. These are not non-being by their essence, but they are beings that necessitate non-being.

“Ignorance” is the lack and non-existence of knowledge. Knowledge is a reality and an actual perfection, but ignorance is not a reality. When we say, “An ignorant person lacks knowledge,” it doesn't mean that he possesses a particular quality called “lack of knowledge,” and knowledgeable people don't possess that quality. Knowledgeable people, before they acquire knowledge, are ignorant; when they acquire knowledge, they don't lose anything; they only acquire something. If ignorance were an actual reality, acquiring knowledge—since it would be alongside a loss of ignorance—would simply be the changing of one attribute for another, just as a body loses one form and quality and acquires a different form and quality.

“Poverty” too is non-possession, not possession and being. One who is poor lacks something called wealth; it is not the case that he in turn possesses something called poverty and, like a wealthy person, has a type of possession, except that a wealthy person possesses wealth and a poor person possesses poverty.

“Death” too is the loss of something, not the acquiring of something. This is why a body that loses the attribute of life and turns into an inanimate object has descended, not ascended.

As for poisonous and dangerous animals, bacteria, floods, earthquakes, and afflictions, they are evil because they cause death or the loss of an organ or ability, or prevent abilities from reaching perfection. If poisonous animals did not cause death and sickness, they would not be evil; if plant afflictions did not cause the annihilation of trees or their fruits, they would not be evil; if floods and earthquakes did not result in human and material losses they would not be evil.

Evil is in those casualties and losses. If we call a beast of prey evil, it is not because its peculiar essence is the essence of evil, but because it is a cause of death and loss for something else. In reality, what is evil by essence is that loss of life itself. If a beast of prey were to exist but not to prey [on other things], that is, if it were not to cause loss of life for anything, it would not be evil, and if it exists and loss of life takes place, it is evil.

In terms of the relation between cause and effect, usually those very actual deficiencies, meaning poverty and ignorance, become causes of things like bacteria, floods, earthquakes, war, and so on, which are evils of the second type, meaning that they are beings that are evil inasmuch as they are a source of deficiencies and non-being.

In order to combat these type of evils, we must first combat the first type of evils and fill vacuums like ignorance, inability, and poverty, so that evils of the second type don't come about.

https://www.al-islam.org/articles/evils-excerpt-ayatullah-murtadha-mutahharis-divine-justice

Here's the link if you want to read it in it's entirety ^

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12 hours ago, sefket83 said:

Where in the Quran does it say God is all good?

What is the difference between being all good and being all just?

Is it good that you as a peaceful individual get the same reward as someone who has murdered and oppressed people during his life time?

Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى is the most merciful while He is also the most just. If you wish to know his 99 attributes, here they are:

 

 

And you still have not replied to my latest reply. 

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On 14/12/2017 at 12:22 AM, Quisant said:

better teacher is the one who teaches the exact same lesson without resorting to the use of pain/suffering/discomfort, etc etc.

God is teaching everyone the exact same lesson. It is people who suffer because of their own individual circumstances. Plus suffering is a very human thing which doesn't exist for God.

Children in Syria don't suffer because God wanted them to. It is when tyrants come into existence because of their own desires.

When society as a whole elects people like Donald Trump, funds ISIS etc. then honestly tell me what sort of peaceful life with flowers all around do you expect.

On 14/12/2017 at 12:22 AM, Quisant said:

God wanted to remove suffering without removing free will, it would happen in a heartbeat with perfect consistency.

In heaven there will be no suffering, which is a promise of God. Again, suffering being there or not - still implies God is perfect and good. God is shining his light on us always, if we choose to cover ourselves then we will suffer as a result. It doesn't mean God isn't shining his light to start with. 

On 14/12/2017 at 12:22 AM, Quisant said:

perhaps you are saying that God uses suffering, since without it there are things he can't do?

Again your mind is not yet trained to understand God. God doesn't use suffering like he's throwing some stuff at people.

He has created a system in this world where anyone can suffer due to the circumstances and conditions of society etc.

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8 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

God is teaching everyone the exact same lesson. It is people who suffer because of their own individual circumstances. Plus suffering is a very human thing which doesn't exist for God.

Children in Syria don't suffer because God wanted them to. It is when tyrants come into existence because of their own desires.

 

God, is usually described by believers as Omnipotent, Omniscient, and Benevolent 

Benevolence is the desire for good, the desire that there not be evil, it implies the will to remove evil.

An All-powerful God CAN create a sufferingless existence, therefore THIS existence is NOT NECESSARY. You believe in a God who created unnecessary suffering.

The visible amount of misery/suffering/pain in this world is really not compatible with the God in the benevolent form described by organised religions.

8 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

When society as a whole elects people like Donald Trump, funds ISIS etc. then honestly tell me what sort of peaceful life with flowers all around do you expect.

If your position includes an omnipotent, omniscient God creating people, then he's ultimately responsible for their behaviour. 
 

 

8 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

In heaven there will be no suffering,

Always Jam tomorrow...

 

8 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

He has created a system in this world where anyone can suffer due to the circumstances and conditions of society etc.

According to Organised Religions God exists, and always acts toward the greatest good.
1. God is Benevolent.
2. God is Almighty.
3. God is Omniscient.
4. If God is all Benevolent, Almighty and Omniscient then there is no evil.
5. There is suffering/evil.

The above set of propositions in inconsistent, i.e. they cannot all be true; it is impossible that they are all true.

If God is really Benevolent then He must eliminate evil and suffering, if He is Omniscient He knows how to eliminate it and if He is Almighty he can eliminate it.

Yet Evil/suffering exists and has always existed ...no lesson has ever changed anything. 

wslm.

*
 

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1 hour ago, Quisant said:

You believe in a God who created unnecessary suffering.

The visible amount of misery/suffering/pain in this world is really not compatible with the God in the benevolent form described by organised  

Firstly you still can't prove to me why suffering means God is evil.

Secondly refer to this beautiful answer by Javad Shayvard which might answer your doubts, confusions etc regarding why suffering exists.

"There are two orders in the beings of the world. We can cal! them the longitudinal order and the transversal order. The longitudinal order is the place of things in the cause and effect chain of creation. In the language of religion, Angels, The Book (of Allah), The Distributors, The Pen and so on, all show of a certain order and arrangement in existence.

This order is not formal but necessary. In this order, the flame of a matchstick cannot compete with the Sun, and the change of a possible thing into something necessary is not imaginable. A cause cannot change its place with its own effect (at the same time and place).

All the mistakes that we make that why `this' couldn't have been in the place of `that' or why an imperfect being can't change its place with a perfect being is because we have not understood the necessary and essential relations of things. We compare the existential order with conventional orders and social stratifications.

We think that when we can change a manager with his worker, or a landlord with a peasant, then why couldn't have a sheep been a human being. When the exploited workers and proletariat can overthrow and replace the rich exploiters, with belief and class struggle, why couldn't have God made a lame person a perfect athlete.

This is impossible, because the cause being the cause and the effect being the effect is not conventional or formal. If `A' is the cause of 'B' it is because there is something in the nature of `A' that has made it the cause.

Also, the specification of 'B' has made it relate to `A' and this specification is nothing but those attributes that have made 'B' exist. Once you take the specifications away from `B,' you are left with something else and not 'B.'

These specifications are real and not conventional or transferable. Take the number `5.' It comes after `4' and before `6.' You cannot put `5' anywhere else without loosing its identity. If you put it, say, before `4' it will be `3,' even if you call it `5 ' You cannot change the reality of `3,' although you change its name.1

Between all creatures of the universe exists such a deep and existential order. If you take anything out of its existential place, it will loose its substance and will not be the same thing anymore. If you give four sides to a triangle instead of three, it is not a triangle anymore; in fact it is a square. Ibn Sina (Avicenna) has a nice sentence here. He said: "God did not make apricots into apricots, but He created apricots." What it means is that there was no stage when all the fruits were equal and then God discriminated between them.

Each fruit is unique. This uniqueness, applies to different beings and personalities as well. The holy Qur'an says:

"......Our Lord is He who gave unto everything its nature, then guided it aright " (20:50).

In another place it says:

"Our word for a thing, when We intend it, is only that We say to it: . Be! and it is " (16:40).2

Now, let us go on to the transversal order:

The transversal order determines the temporal and material conditions of phenomena. And it is with this order that history takes a definite and certain form. Qur'an refers to this order of existence in this way:

" ...., and you shall not find any change in the course of Allah " (Qur'an, 33:62) .

Some of these deterministic laws are mentioned in the Qur'an, like this law:

"Allah changes not the condition of a people until they change that which is in their selves?" (13:11)

 

Edited by ali_fatheroforphans

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46 minutes ago, Quisant said:

If God is really Benevolent then He must eliminate evil and suffering, if He is Omniscient He knows how to eliminate it and if He is Almighty he can eliminate it.

Yet Evil/suffering exists and has always existed ...no lesson has ever changed anything. 

No, if God is Omniscient, Almighty and Benevolent; Then the reason why evil exists is from a source that is unknowing, weak and miserly. As I mentioned before evil cannot exist without the absence of the attributes or any qualities that are naturally good.

The source of evil is man and his free will, as long as people continue to live and die, evil will persist as we choose choices that negatively affect others while unaware in our own world, feeling insecure about ourselves and remain cruel to one another.

1 hour ago, Quisant said:

The above set of propositions in inconsistent, i.e. they cannot all be true; it is impossible that they are all true.

It is inconsistent because evil is not from God but humans who are void of knowledge, decency and ableness.

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