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sefket83

Is God completely good in Islam?

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7 minutes ago, sefket83 said:

If God is omnipotent and completly good then there would be no suffering. What do you say?

Who is the causer of suffering and is suffering always a bad thing?

Is it suffering to be sitting in economy class with a kid behind you kicking you in the back on a flight when your heading to a paradise island for vacation where everything is for free?

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12 minutes ago, IbnSina said:

Who is the causer of suffering and is suffering always a bad thing?

Is it suffering to be sitting in economy class with a kid behind you kicking you in the back on a flight when your heading to a paradise island for vacation where everything is for free?

You are evading the question but I do not mean to be rude.

Edited by sefket83

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26 minutes ago, sefket83 said:

If God is omnipotent and completly good then there would be no suffering. What do you say?

Corruption has appeared in the land and the sea on account of what the hands of men have wrought, that (Allah) may give them a taste of some of their deeds: in order that they may turn back (from Evil). Quran 30:41

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5 hours ago, sefket83 said:

You are evading the question but I do not mean to be rude.

No brother, I answered your question:

All suffering is not caused by Allahسُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى it is most often caused by ourselves (the actions we take or do not take) or other human and suffering is sometimes good for you.

For example: if you are an arrogant person then maybe you deny Allahسُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى but if you go such things (suffering) that would humble you then maybe you would be less proud and could open your heart.

At the end of the day, how can we expect eternal joy(paradise) without expecting trials(suffering) to show ourselves worthy of that unending price?

[3:142] Did you think you would enter the Garden without God first proving which of you would struggle for His cause and remain steadfast?

[2:155] And We will surely test you with something of fear and hunger and a loss of wealth and lives and fruits, but give good tidings to the patient,

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5 hours ago, shadow_of_light said:

Who is a better teacher:

A better teacher is the one who teaches the exact same lesson without resorting to the use of pain/suffering/discomfort, etc etc.

Benevolence is the desire for good, the desire that there not be suffering/evil.
It implies the will to remove suffering.

If God wanted to remove suffering without removing free will, it would happen in a heartbeat with perfect consistency. 
For an entity of infinite power, knowledge and goodness, nothing would be necessary apart from its will. 

Or perhaps you are saying that God uses suffering, since without it there are things he can't do?

If God needs to use evil/suffering, then God cannot be omnipotent.
Nothing is necessary to an omnipotent entity. 

You might think about that?

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3 hours ago, Quisant said:

A better teacher is the one who teaches the exact same lesson without resorting to the use of pain/suffering/discomfort, etc etc.

Benevolence is the desire for good, the desire that there not be suffering/evil.
It implies the will to remove suffering.

If God wanted to remove suffering without removing free will, it would happen in a heartbeat with perfect consistency. 
For an entity of infinite power, knowledge and goodness, nothing would be necessary apart from its will. 

Or perhaps you are saying that God uses suffering, since without it there are things he can't do?

If God needs to use evil/suffering, then God cannot be omnipotent.
Nothing is necessary to an omnipotent entity. 

You might think about that?

Above has no logical/rational basis. Its pure rhetoric.

Fact that God is not you, and he is  your Creator. Its illogical to impose your mentality/entitlement  on someone you acknowledge is your Creator - Higher Intellect. 

You need to come to grips with a fact that, (this false notions/practice)child does not   run mommy/daddy life. My demands are not met. I am entitled to this kind of treatment, My expectations are such and such ..My Parents are not the way i want them to be, so I will rebel. I will only believe and love if you were the way I want you to be....

Parents do what is good for the kids. 

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All goodness comes from God.

Evil or "bad" is just lack of goodness. 

It doesn't mean we associated evil with God. 

If we say that "we humans experience death", it doesn't mean that it is something attributed to God. Death is just lack of life.

It would be more appropriate to say "God is living", because this is the actual quality we're concerned about.

Likewise we say "all goodness comes from God - not evil!"

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3 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

All goodness comes from God.

Evil or "bad" is just lack of goodness. 

It doesn't mean we associated evil with God. 

If we say that "we humans experience death", it doesn't mean that it is something attributed to God. Death is just lack of life.

It would be more appropriate to say "God is living", because this is the actual quality we're concerned about.

Likewise we say "all goodness comes from God - not evil!"

In the Bible: I form the light, and create darkness: make peace, and create evil : I the LORD do all these things.(Isaiah 45:7)

In the Quraan: SHAKIR: 113.001 Say: I seek refuge in the Lord of the dawn, 113.002:  From the evil of what He has created,

"Allah is the Creator of all things, and He is, over all things, Disposer of affairs."[Quran 39:62]

*

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3 hours ago, Quisant said:

In the Bible: I form the light, and create darkness: make peace, and create evil : I the LORD do all these things.(Isaiah 45:7)

In the Quraan: SHAKIR: 113.001 Say: I seek refuge in the Lord of the dawn, 113.002:  From the evil of what He has created,

"Allah is the Creator of all things, and He is, over all things, Disposer of affairs."[Quran 39:62]

*

Tell me, you are been creative and cheering picking here. You are fully aware of the fact that the book(s) you are cherry picking from have central Concepts and principles. 

For you to be doing what you jut did, been aware of the facts. Is this intellectual honesty? 

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31 minutes ago, Quisant said:

 

To an Atheist/Agnostic. What is the relevance of Good and Evil. These concepts do not exist in your domain. Good/Evil are same thing. A thing could be good if it benefits you today, and the same thing could be evil it not advantages to you tomorrow. ( Its all relative to you). 

So, I do not even see why and Atheist/Agnostic be so concerned with this Concept? 

Can you provide a logical/rational reason for it? 

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3 hours ago, sefket83 said:

If God is omnipotent and completly good then there would be no suffering. What do you say?

Suffering is caused by man to each other. Not by Allah.

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4 hours ago, Quisant said:

A better teacher is the one who teaches the exact same lesson without resorting to the use of pain/suffering/discomfort, etc etc.

Means a female give birth to her offspring without experiencing pain or discomfort. Human eat anything without giving pain or discomfort to others (no need to kill any animal). 

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3 hours ago, Quisant said:

In the Quraan: SHAKIR: 113.001 Say: I seek refuge in the Lord of the dawn, 113.002:  From the evil of what He has created,

*

Quran uses terms that are different from modern philosopy. Quran is Book of Guidance and is not your philosophy book.
This verse is not intended for ones who is not accepting God in the first place.

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4 hours ago, Quisant said:

A better teacher is the one who teaches the exact same lesson without resorting to the use of pain/suffering/discomfort, etc etc.

Is it possible? For example, is it possible to understand the value of health without expriencing any disease?

By the way, we should distinguish between pains caused by humans and those caused by divine ruls.

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6 hours ago, Quisant said:

In the Bible: I form the light, and create darkness: make peace, and create evil : I the LORD do all these things.(Isaiah 45:7)

In the Quraan: SHAKIR: 113.001 Say: I seek refuge in the Lord of the dawn, 113.002:  From the evil of what He has created,

"Allah is the Creator of all things, and He is, over all things, Disposer of affairs."[Quran 39:62]

*

From the evil of what he has created.

If he has created goodness in all creatures but then they turn away from goodness - then obviously we have evil.

Anyways refer to this site to know the context behind this verse. You do lovr cherry picking.

https://www.al-islam.org/enlightening-commentary-light-holy-quran-vol-20/surah-falaq-chapter-113

 

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@ali_fatheroforphans @sefket83,

If we agree on the premise that an omnipotent God is naturally and ultimately good, then evil is merely the absence of good.  E.g. Murder is the absence of justice, cheating is the absence of fairness, ignorance is absence of knowledge, etc..

Knowledge, justice and fairness are attributes of God but not ignorance,  injustice and cheating because an omnipotent God that is good cannot contradict Himself and create evil. Again, evil is the lack of goodness and comes from its absence; Unnatural, defective and void, it comes from a source that is fallible and not omnipotent, mankind. Evil by itself, is nonexistent as Mutahhari once said. 

Look at this:

Quote

 Being and non-being do not comprise two separate groups in the external  world. Non-being is nothing and emptiness and cannot occupy a particular place side by side with being. But in the natural world, which is the world of potentiality and actuality, movement and evolution, and contradiction and opposition, wherever there are forms of being, forms of non-being also apply. When we speak of “blindness” we should not think that “blindness” is a specific thing and a tangible reality that exists in the eye of a blind person. Instead, “blindness” is nothing but the lack of “sight” and it itself has no reality.

Good and evil, too, are like being and non-being; in fact, fundamentally good is the same as being and evil is the same as non-being. Wherever we speak of evil, there is definitely a non-being and lack [of something] involved. “Evil” is either itself of the form of non-being, or it is a being that necessitates a form of non-being; that is, it is a being that, inasmuch as it is itself, is good, and it is evil inasmuch as it necessitates a non-being; and it is only evil because it necessitates a non-being, not for any other reason. We consider ignorance, poverty, and death to be evil. These by their essence are non-being. We consider poisonous and dangerous animals, bacteria, and afflictions to be evil. These are not non-being by their essence, but they are beings that necessitate non-being.

“Ignorance” is the lack and non-existence of knowledge. Knowledge is a reality and an actual perfection, but ignorance is not a reality. When we say, “An ignorant person lacks knowledge,” it doesn't mean that he possesses a particular quality called “lack of knowledge,” and knowledgeable people don't possess that quality. Knowledgeable people, before they acquire knowledge, are ignorant; when they acquire knowledge, they don't lose anything; they only acquire something. If ignorance were an actual reality, acquiring knowledge—since it would be alongside a loss of ignorance—would simply be the changing of one attribute for another, just as a body loses one form and quality and acquires a different form and quality.

“Poverty” too is non-possession, not possession and being. One who is poor lacks something called wealth; it is not the case that he in turn possesses something called poverty and, like a wealthy person, has a type of possession, except that a wealthy person possesses wealth and a poor person possesses poverty.

“Death” too is the loss of something, not the acquiring of something. This is why a body that loses the attribute of life and turns into an inanimate object has descended, not ascended.

As for poisonous and dangerous animals, bacteria, floods, earthquakes, and afflictions, they are evil because they cause death or the loss of an organ or ability, or prevent abilities from reaching perfection. If poisonous animals did not cause death and sickness, they would not be evil; if plant afflictions did not cause the annihilation of trees or their fruits, they would not be evil; if floods and earthquakes did not result in human and material losses they would not be evil.

Evil is in those casualties and losses. If we call a beast of prey evil, it is not because its peculiar essence is the essence of evil, but because it is a cause of death and loss for something else. In reality, what is evil by essence is that loss of life itself. If a beast of prey were to exist but not to prey [on other things], that is, if it were not to cause loss of life for anything, it would not be evil, and if it exists and loss of life takes place, it is evil.

In terms of the relation between cause and effect, usually those very actual deficiencies, meaning poverty and ignorance, become causes of things like bacteria, floods, earthquakes, war, and so on, which are evils of the second type, meaning that they are beings that are evil inasmuch as they are a source of deficiencies and non-being.

In order to combat these type of evils, we must first combat the first type of evils and fill vacuums like ignorance, inability, and poverty, so that evils of the second type don't come about.

https://www.al-islam.org/articles/evils-excerpt-ayatullah-murtadha-mutahharis-divine-justice

Here's the link if you want to read it in it's entirety ^

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12 hours ago, sefket83 said:

Where in the Quran does it say God is all good?

What is the difference between being all good and being all just?

Is it good that you as a peaceful individual get the same reward as someone who has murdered and oppressed people during his life time?

Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى is the most merciful while He is also the most just. If you wish to know his 99 attributes, here they are:

 

 

And you still have not replied to my latest reply. 

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On 14/12/2017 at 12:22 AM, Quisant said:

better teacher is the one who teaches the exact same lesson without resorting to the use of pain/suffering/discomfort, etc etc.

God is teaching everyone the exact same lesson. It is people who suffer because of their own individual circumstances. Plus suffering is a very human thing which doesn't exist for God.

Children in Syria don't suffer because God wanted them to. It is when tyrants come into existence because of their own desires.

When society as a whole elects people like Donald Trump, funds ISIS etc. then honestly tell me what sort of peaceful life with flowers all around do you expect.

On 14/12/2017 at 12:22 AM, Quisant said:

God wanted to remove suffering without removing free will, it would happen in a heartbeat with perfect consistency.

In heaven there will be no suffering, which is a promise of God. Again, suffering being there or not - still implies God is perfect and good. God is shining his light on us always, if we choose to cover ourselves then we will suffer as a result. It doesn't mean God isn't shining his light to start with. 

On 14/12/2017 at 12:22 AM, Quisant said:

perhaps you are saying that God uses suffering, since without it there are things he can't do?

Again your mind is not yet trained to understand God. God doesn't use suffering like he's throwing some stuff at people.

He has created a system in this world where anyone can suffer due to the circumstances and conditions of society etc.

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8 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

God is teaching everyone the exact same lesson. It is people who suffer because of their own individual circumstances. Plus suffering is a very human thing which doesn't exist for God.

Children in Syria don't suffer because God wanted them to. It is when tyrants come into existence because of their own desires.

 

God, is usually described by believers as Omnipotent, Omniscient, and Benevolent 

Benevolence is the desire for good, the desire that there not be evil, it implies the will to remove evil.

An All-powerful God CAN create a sufferingless existence, therefore THIS existence is NOT NECESSARY. You believe in a God who created unnecessary suffering.

The visible amount of misery/suffering/pain in this world is really not compatible with the God in the benevolent form described by organised religions.

8 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

When society as a whole elects people like Donald Trump, funds ISIS etc. then honestly tell me what sort of peaceful life with flowers all around do you expect.

If your position includes an omnipotent, omniscient God creating people, then he's ultimately responsible for their behaviour. 
 

 

8 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

In heaven there will be no suffering,

Always Jam tomorrow...

 

8 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

He has created a system in this world where anyone can suffer due to the circumstances and conditions of society etc.

According to Organised Religions God exists, and always acts toward the greatest good.
1. God is Benevolent.
2. God is Almighty.
3. God is Omniscient.
4. If God is all Benevolent, Almighty and Omniscient then there is no evil.
5. There is suffering/evil.

The above set of propositions in inconsistent, i.e. they cannot all be true; it is impossible that they are all true.

If God is really Benevolent then He must eliminate evil and suffering, if He is Omniscient He knows how to eliminate it and if He is Almighty he can eliminate it.

Yet Evil/suffering exists and has always existed ...no lesson has ever changed anything. 

wslm.

*
 

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1 hour ago, Quisant said:

You believe in a God who created unnecessary suffering.

The visible amount of misery/suffering/pain in this world is really not compatible with the God in the benevolent form described by organised  

Firstly you still can't prove to me why suffering means God is evil.

Secondly refer to this beautiful answer by Javad Shayvard which might answer your doubts, confusions etc regarding why suffering exists.

"There are two orders in the beings of the world. We can cal! them the longitudinal order and the transversal order. The longitudinal order is the place of things in the cause and effect chain of creation. In the language of religion, Angels, The Book (of Allah), The Distributors, The Pen and so on, all show of a certain order and arrangement in existence.

This order is not formal but necessary. In this order, the flame of a matchstick cannot compete with the Sun, and the change of a possible thing into something necessary is not imaginable. A cause cannot change its place with its own effect (at the same time and place).

All the mistakes that we make that why `this' couldn't have been in the place of `that' or why an imperfect being can't change its place with a perfect being is because we have not understood the necessary and essential relations of things. We compare the existential order with conventional orders and social stratifications.

We think that when we can change a manager with his worker, or a landlord with a peasant, then why couldn't have a sheep been a human being. When the exploited workers and proletariat can overthrow and replace the rich exploiters, with belief and class struggle, why couldn't have God made a lame person a perfect athlete.

This is impossible, because the cause being the cause and the effect being the effect is not conventional or formal. If `A' is the cause of 'B' it is because there is something in the nature of `A' that has made it the cause.

Also, the specification of 'B' has made it relate to `A' and this specification is nothing but those attributes that have made 'B' exist. Once you take the specifications away from `B,' you are left with something else and not 'B.'

These specifications are real and not conventional or transferable. Take the number `5.' It comes after `4' and before `6.' You cannot put `5' anywhere else without loosing its identity. If you put it, say, before `4' it will be `3,' even if you call it `5 ' You cannot change the reality of `3,' although you change its name.1

Between all creatures of the universe exists such a deep and existential order. If you take anything out of its existential place, it will loose its substance and will not be the same thing anymore. If you give four sides to a triangle instead of three, it is not a triangle anymore; in fact it is a square. Ibn Sina (Avicenna) has a nice sentence here. He said: "God did not make apricots into apricots, but He created apricots." What it means is that there was no stage when all the fruits were equal and then God discriminated between them.

Each fruit is unique. This uniqueness, applies to different beings and personalities as well. The holy Qur'an says:

"......Our Lord is He who gave unto everything its nature, then guided it aright " (20:50).

In another place it says:

"Our word for a thing, when We intend it, is only that We say to it: . Be! and it is " (16:40).2

Now, let us go on to the transversal order:

The transversal order determines the temporal and material conditions of phenomena. And it is with this order that history takes a definite and certain form. Qur'an refers to this order of existence in this way:

" ...., and you shall not find any change in the course of Allah " (Qur'an, 33:62) .

Some of these deterministic laws are mentioned in the Qur'an, like this law:

"Allah changes not the condition of a people until they change that which is in their selves?" (13:11)

 

Edited by ali_fatheroforphans

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46 minutes ago, Quisant said:

If God is really Benevolent then He must eliminate evil and suffering, if He is Omniscient He knows how to eliminate it and if He is Almighty he can eliminate it.

Yet Evil/suffering exists and has always existed ...no lesson has ever changed anything. 

No, if God is Omniscient, Almighty and Benevolent; Then the reason why evil exists is from a source that is unknowing, weak and miserly. As I mentioned before evil cannot exist without the absence of the attributes or any qualities that are naturally good.

The source of evil is man and his free will, as long as people continue to live and die, evil will persist as we choose choices that negatively affect others while unaware in our own world, feeling insecure about ourselves and remain cruel to one another.

1 hour ago, Quisant said:

The above set of propositions in inconsistent, i.e. they cannot all be true; it is impossible that they are all true.

It is inconsistent because evil is not from God but humans who are void of knowledge, decency and ableness.

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21 minutes ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

Firstly you still can't prove to me why suffering means God is evil.

 

I don't need to prove or disprove anything, I never tried to prove that God is evil.  you are putting words in my mouth. 

What I said is:   An All-powerful God CAN create a sufferingless existence, therefore THIS existence is NOT NECESSARY. You believe in a God who created unnecessary suffering.

If there is free will in Heaven where there is no evil or suffering, then it cannot be true that God lets evil exist because it is a required side-effect of free will.
So, God *can* create a world without suffering.
 

34 minutes ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

Secondly refer to this beautiful answer by Javad Shayvard which might answer your doubts, confusions etc regarding why suffering exists.

"There are two orders in the beings of the world. We can cal! them the longitudinal order and the transversal order. The longitudinal order is the place of things in the cause and effect chain of creation. In the language of religion, Angels, The Book (of Allah), The Distributors, The Pen and so on, all show of a certain order and arrangement in existence.

This order is not formal but necessary. In this order, the flame of a matchstick cannot compete with the Sun, and the change of a possible thing into something necessary is not imaginable. A cause cannot change its place with its own effect (at the same time and place).

All the mistakes that we make that why `this' couldn't have been in the place of `that' or why an imperfect being can't change its place with a perfect being is because we have not understood the necessary and essential relations of things. We compare the existential order with conventional orders and social stratifications.

We think that when we can change a manager with his worker, or a landlord with a peasant, then why couldn't have a sheep been a human being. When the exploited workers and proletariat can overthrow and replace the rich exploiters, with belief and class struggle, why couldn't have God made a lame person a perfect athlete.

This is impossible, because the cause being the cause and the effect being the effect is not conventional or formal. If `A' is the cause of 'B' it is because there is something in the nature of `A' that has made it the cause.

Also, the specification of 'B' has made it relate to `A' and this specification is nothing but those attributes that have made 'B' exist. Once you take the specifications away from `B,' you are left with something else and not 'B.'

These specifications are real and not conventional or transferable. Take the number `5.' It comes after `4' and before `6.' You cannot put `5' anywhere else without loosing its identity. If you put it, say, before `4' it will be `3,' even if you call it `5 ' You cannot change the reality of `3,' although you change its name.1

Between all creatures of the universe exists such a deep and existential order. If you take anything out of its existential place, it will loose its substance and will not be the same thing anymore. If you give four sides to a triangle instead of three, it is not a triangle anymore; in fact it is a square. Ibn Sina (Avicenna) has a nice sentence here. He said: "God did not make apricots into apricots, but He created apricots." What it means is that there was no stage when all the fruits were equal and then God discriminated between them.

Each fruit is unique. This uniqueness, applies to different beings and personalities as well. The holy Qur'an says:

"......Our Lord is He who gave unto everything its nature, then guided it aright " (20:50).

In another place it says:

"Our word for a thing, when We intend it, is only that We say to it: . Be! and it is " (16:40).2

Now, let us go on to the transversal order:

The transversal order determines the temporal and material conditions of phenomena. And it is with this order that history takes a definite and certain form. Qur'an refers to this order of existence in this way:

" ...., and you shall not find any change in the course of Allah " (Qur'an, 33:62) .

Some of these deterministic laws are mentioned in the Qur'an, like this law:

"Allah changes not the condition of a people until they change that which is in their selves?" (13:11)

 

Edited 18 minutes ago by ali_fatheroforphans

 

If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with a parable...

:)

29 minutes ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

The source of evil is man and his free will, as long as people continue to live and die, evil will persist as we choose choices that negatively affect others while unaware in our own world, feeling insecure about ourselves and remain cruel to one another.

As I said earlier: If your position includes an omnipotent, omniscient God creating people, then he's ultimately responsible for their behaviour. Theology claims that God is the cause of all causes.

A 'Creator' that is not in control or fully aware of the future consequences of his creative act is not a God, he is an irresponsible, capricious entity.

If a God  is benevolent, He would always choose the path that causes most good and the least suffering. 

A creation with evil and sin and pain is unarguably worse than a creation of greatness and perfection.

An almighty creator who desires the maximal well-being of humans certainly does not exist, because an almighty creator who is unable to accomplish goals without human suffering cannot be Omnipotent or Benevolent.

Anyway my thanks to ali_fatheroforphans and to you for talking to me, I can see this will go nowhere but circles...so I'll call it a day.

Best wishes

*

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Allah is able to do anything but his proxy is that we achieve ourselves to best position  &  he helps us in this way

In Paradise  no act counts as sin because we avoid the sin in this world but very action is allowed in Paradise.

For example drinking vine in this world is a sin but Allah says in Holly Quran that  in Paradise the best type of vine available for its inhabitants.

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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1 hour ago, Quisant said:

 

What I said is:   An All-powerful God CAN create a sufferingless existence, therefore THIS existence is NOT NECESSARY. You believe in a God who created unnecessary suffering.


 

 

 

As long as there are living creatures, there is suffering. Even a small attempt for finding food can be considered to be suffering. So a sufferingless world cannot exist unless there is no alive creature. But how much suffering is necessary?... this is the question.

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6 hours ago, Quisant said:

You believe in a God who created unnecessary suffering.

If there were no suffering, how would you know what is suffering? And how would you know the value & taste of ease?

The best I like about suffering is that it teaches us "patience". What a great & helpful tool it is, to live this limited worldly life.
 

Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 153:
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا اسْتَعِينُوا بِالصَّبْرِ وَالصَّلَاةِ إِنَّ اللَّهَ مَعَ الصَّابِرِينَ

O you who believe! seek assistance through patience and prayer; surely Allah is with the patient.
(English - Shakir)

 

Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 155:
وَلَنَبْلُوَنَّكُم بِشَيْءٍ مِّنَ الْخَوْفِ وَالْجُوعِ وَنَقْصٍ مِّنَ الْأَمْوَالِ وَالْأَنفُسِ وَالثَّمَرَاتِ وَبَشِّرِ الصَّابِرِينَ

And We will most certainly try you with somewhat of fear and hunger and loss of property and lives and fruits; and give good news to the patient,
(English - Shakir)

 

 
 

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