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mohammad nadeem

Whats killing our brothers in Palestine?

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1 hour ago, Hassan- said:

Cursing is not forbidden according to Imam Khamenei unless it is in public.

He called for not cursing in both public and secret majalis. I'm not sure if he said it is haram, but he called not to ever curse.

Question #3

http://arabic.khamenei.ir/news/1736

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8 hours ago, Sirius_Bright said:

Sure, we can start respecting Abu Sufyan and Hind as well. They were set free and given amnesty by Holy Prophet (sawa) after the conquest of Mecca.

come on. be reasonable bro. only nasibis will get offended if you curse abu sufyan and hind. no sunni brothers/sisters hold them in high esteem.

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35 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

He called for not cursing in both public and secret majalis. I'm not sure if he said it is haram, but he called not to ever curse.

Question #3

http://arabic.khamenei.ir/news/1736

I do not see in your link where he said not to curse in secret majalis, he only gave a generalized answer by saying not to curse public figures of other sects.

Edited by Hassan-

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29 minutes ago, Hassan- said:

I do not see in your link where he said not to curse in secret majalis, he only gave a generalized answer by saying not to curse public figures of other sects.

تفضلوا بذكر رأي سماحة السيد القائد في ما يتعلق بمراسم اللعن التي تقام في أيام خاصة في بعض المناطق؟


- قال سماحة السيد القائد مراراً لا توجهوا الإهانات لمقدسات سائر المذاهب، إذن يجب اجتناب هذه الممارسات. و النقطة الجديرة بالملاحظة هي أن البعض يقولون: لا إشکال في أن نعلن في المجالس الخاصة، لكن سماحته لم يقيّد الأمر بأن يكون المجلس عاماً أو خاصاً، بل قال على نحو العموم: لا توجّهوا الإهانات لمقدسات سائر المسلمين، أي سائر الفرق الإسلامية. قال سماحته في موضع من المواضع: «ذلك الشيعي الذي تدفعه جهالته و غفلته، أو المغرض أحياناً - و لدينا مثل هذه الحالات أيضاً و نعرف أفراداً من الشيعة مشكلتهم ليست مجرد الجهل، بل لديهم أوامر و مأموريات بزرع الخلافات - لتوجيه الإهانات لمقدسات أهل السنة، أقول: إن سلوك كلا الفريقين حرام شرعاً و بخلاف القانون». إذن، توجيه الإهانات لمقدسات سائر المذاهب الإسلامية حرام شرعاً في رأي سماحة السيد القائد.

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1 hour ago, Sumerian said:

تفضلوا بذكر رأي سماحة السيد القائد في ما يتعلق بمراسم اللعن التي تقام في أيام خاصة في بعض المناطق؟


- قال سماحة السيد القائد مراراً لا توجهوا الإهانات لمقدسات سائر المذاهب، إذن يجب اجتناب هذه الممارسات. و النقطة الجديرة بالملاحظة هي أن البعض يقولون: لا إشکال في أن نعلن في المجالس الخاصة، لكن سماحته لم يقيّد الأمر بأن يكون المجلس عاماً أو خاصاً، بل قال على نحو العموم: لا توجّهوا الإهانات لمقدسات سائر المسلمين، أي سائر الفرق الإسلامية. قال سماحته في موضع من المواضع: «ذلك الشيعي الذي تدفعه جهالته و غفلته، أو المغرض أحياناً - و لدينا مثل هذه الحالات أيضاً و نعرف أفراداً من الشيعة مشكلتهم ليست مجرد الجهل، بل لديهم أوامر و مأموريات بزرع الخلافات - لتوجيه الإهانات لمقدسات أهل السنة، أقول: إن سلوك كلا الفريقين حرام شرعاً و بخلاف القانون». إذن، توجيه الإهانات لمقدسات سائر المذاهب الإسلامية حرام شرعاً في رأي سماحة السيد القائد.

Brother, read what it says:

لكن سماحته لم يقيّد الأمر بأن يكون المجلس عاماً أو خاصاً، بل قال على نحو العموم: لا توجّهوا الإهانات لمقدسات سائر المسلمين، أي سائر الفرق الإسلامية

 

He never mentioned public or private, he just generalized by saying one shouldn’t insult public figures. 

Also it uses the word الإهانات   which means ‘insult’ or ‘sab’, it does not mean cursing ‘la3n’. Those are two different words. We already know that insulting or sab is impermissible.

Edited by Hassan-

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On 12/13/2017 at 4:52 PM, IbnSina said:

Your forgetting the manners of Imam Ali(as). I do not need mohammad nadeem in india to tell me how to behave when the Imams(as) has made it clear.

Imam Ali a.s didn't disrespect aisha even after she was such a staunch enemy and coz of her thousands of Muslims lost there life... Y don't u follow the same seerah of Ali a.s which he showed to aisha towards Israel... 

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3 hours ago, Hassan- said:

Brother, read what it says:

لكن سماحته لم يقيّد الأمر بأن يكون المجلس عاماً أو خاصاً، بل قال على نحو العموم: لا توجّهوا الإهانات لمقدسات سائر المسلمين، أي سائر الفرق الإسلامية

 

He never mentioned public or private, he just generalized by saying one shouldn’t insult public figures. 

Also it uses the word الإهانات   which means ‘insult’ or ‘sab’, it does not mean cursing ‘la3n’. Those are two different words. We already know that insulting or sab is impermissible.

First of all most fuqaha would say sabb is only impermissible towards a mu'min, and can be rewarding if done towards an enemy of Allah or someone who pushes innovations.

NOTE: I am not criticising the fatwa of Sayyed Khamenei, he is a mujtahid and I am not. I am just explaining and comparing it to what other fuqaha say.

Secondly, you are not reading the statement wholly brother, this is what the Sayyed says;

هي أن البعض يقولون: لا إشکال في أن نعلن في المجالس الخاصة، لكن سماحته لم يقيّد الأمر بأن يكون المجلس عاماً أو خاصاً، بل قال على نحو العموم: لا توجّهوا الإهانات لمقدسات سائر المسلمين، أي سائر الفرق الإسلامية. 

that some have said: there is no ishkal that we publicise [it] in an exclusive setting, however his eminence has not (...)

So it was a reply to those who say we should cause ihana in a private setting. 

Edited by Sumerian

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19 minutes ago, mohammad nadeem said:

Y don't u follow the same seerah of Ali a.s which he showed to aisha towards Israel... 

How Ridiculous!
It can be considered if Israel (which is a country) would be the wife of Prophet..

And brother, while you have the words like "Umar Qayd" in your Urdu language, you don't really need to curse him with his name.. @starlight

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1 hour ago, mohammad nadeem said:

Imam Ali a.s didn't disrespect aisha even after she was such a staunch enemy and coz of her thousands of Muslims lost there life... Y don't u follow the same seerah of Ali a.s which he showed to aisha towards Israel... 

As I said, your attempt at saying that our approach towards the followers of the caliphs and one of the wives of the holy Prophet(S) should be the same as our approach towards the israeli zionist government is not logically feasible and not rational, is the zionist government one of the wives of Rasulullah(S)?:

"I want to add also that, comparing our sunni brothers to the israeli zionist and sinister government in our approach is a ridiculous compassion as one group believes in Islam but are ignorant of its history while the other group hates islam and would love to see it gone."

If you are sincere in your love for the Ahlul Bayt(as), and you are not just a emotional mess trying to lash out in all directions, then do what would make them happy, which is to call people towards their path and towards the truth, which is to tell everyone of the truth in the best manner possible so as to get the best possible effect, which is to make them reflect and make them read the history on their own instead of having it read by a saudi wahabi sponsored "sheikh" in their local masjid out in some village in Indonesia.

Furthermore, we have countless of respected ullema who are instructing us in what is the manners of Ahlul Bayt(as) and how we should deal with this situation based on countless years of studying Islam, the holy Qur'an, the history of Islam and the Ahlul Bayt(as).

What credentials and merits do you actually have to come here and tell us all to do something ells?

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1 hour ago, Sumerian said:

private setting

I do not know if there is anything called a private setting in this day and age anymore, everyone got a recording device in one of their pockets and an empty wallet in the other one.

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5 hours ago, Sumerian said:

First of all most fuqaha would say sabb is only impermissible towards a mu'min, and can be rewarding if done towards an enemy of Allah or someone who pushes innovations.

NOTE: I am not criticising the fatwa of Sayyed Khamenei, he is a mujtahid and I am not. I am just explaining and comparing it to what other fuqaha say.

Secondly, you are not reading the statement wholly brother, this is what the Sayyed says;

هي أن البعض يقولون: لا إشکال في أن نعلن في المجالس الخاصة، لكن سماحته لم يقيّد الأمر بأن يكون المجلس عاماً أو خاصاً، بل قال على نحو العموم: لا توجّهوا الإهانات لمقدسات سائر المسلمين، أي سائر الفرق الإسلامية. 

that some have said: there is no ishkal that we publicise [it] in an exclusive setting, however his eminence has not (...)

So it was a reply to those who say we should cause ihana in a private setting. 

The person is saying “However the marja’ did not restrict it to public or private” 

لكن سماحته لم يقيّد الأمر بأن يكون المجلس عاماً أو خاصاً

Then goes on to say “But he says in a general sense: Do not insult important figures of other muslims”.

بل قال على نحو العموم: لا توجّهوا الإهانات لمقدسات سائر المسلمين

 

The Sayeds response was a general response, and he did not say anything about private or public settings.

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42 minutes ago, Hassan- said:

The person is saying “However the marja’ did not restrict it to public or private” 

لكن سماحته لم يقيّد الأمر بأن يكون المجلس عاماً أو خاصاً

Then goes on to say “But he says in a general sense: Do not insult important figures of other muslims”.

بل قال على نحو العموم: لا توجّهوا الإهانات لمقدسات سائر المسلمين

 

The Sayeds response was a general response, and he did not say anything about private or public settings.

Yes, it was in refutation to the line before it brother. As clear as daylight.

That means no ihana at all to the respected figures of the other Islamic sects, either in private or in public. 

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21 hours ago, kirtc said:

listen, we all agree they were wrong, but I can argue there way more evil men then them, simply Yazid is one of them. 

We will keep this for another day to figure out who was most evil and why.

21 hours ago, kirtc said:

The fatwa people dont agree with in Iran is not enough to discredit all of Syd.Khamaeni..

How many times you need to be informed that neither Sayed Khamenei nor Iranian government is Ma'soom. They are fallible and human being just like us. They can make mistakes.

The fatwa we are talking about is controversial from day 1. You agree upon it and I don't. It is called difference of opinion. This doesn't discredit Ayatullah Khamenei for some great work he has done in the middle east.

21 hours ago, kirtc said:

I will ask shia to come live in my city, where every building is mixed between shia, sunni, druze and christians.. and curse the sahaba... see how far that will get you walking down the street.. Many take the fatwa as if the Syd. loves them and is protecting them... how small minded is that. 

Most of the people lives in mixed city. I, myself have wahabis, sunnis, Hindus as neighbours and we know how to live. Read below what I wrote before.

On 12/13/2017 at 2:48 PM, Sirius_Bright said:

Nah, I'm not saying come on streets and curse. Causing fitnah is a great sin. 

 

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18 hours ago, IbnSina said:

Do you think you will achieve that by openly cursing the people they have been lied about to love?

If I come to you as a friend wanting you advise you on Islam but I start by cursing your mother, would you listen to me afterwards?

I clarified that before.

On 12/13/2017 at 2:48 PM, Sirius_Bright said:

Nah, I'm not saying come on streets and curse. Causing fitnah is a great sin.

 

18 hours ago, IbnSina said:

You can call it respect or grace or whatever ells you wish to call it but if you care to put your ego aside, you can call it following the sunnah of our Imams(as).

With due respect, you can also do the same. Put your ego aside and don't ever curse or insult Abu Sufyan, Mu'awiyah, Marwan etc. (Don't recite Ziyarat-e-Ashura then)

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17 hours ago, Hassan- said:

Cursing is not forbidden according to Imam Khamenei unless it is in public.

I know he won't give a fatwa like 'curse in private but not in public'. So please help me understand how he meant it is allowed in private.

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On 12/14/2017 at 11:49 AM, Sirius_Bright said:

I clarified that before.

With due respect, you can also do the same. Put your ego aside and don't ever curse or insult Abu Sufyan, Mu'awiyah, Marwan etc. (Don't recite Ziyarat-e-Ashura then)

Brother, I think you and our other Indian brother are saying two different things then, because as far as I understood brother nadeem, then he would like us to openly curse revered figures of our sunni brothers and sister, but you are saying something ells since you see how that would cause great fitnah, which is a sin.

With regards to the person you have mention I put (la) after their names and there is no issue with this because arguably these persons are not undoubtedly highly revered persons within ahlul sunnah while the person that brother nadeem are referring to (the first caliphs and one of the wives of the Prophet(S)) are definitely without a doubt, highly revered persons within ahlul sunnah.

As an example:

I was speaking to one of my old university friends who happens to be a sunni man from Palestine and the topic of recent events in Palestine came up and the topic of how saudi sold them to israel came up and historical topics related to this came up, among those the battle of the camel and muawiya(la), he did not revere muawiya(la), in fact he was not even very informed of muawiya(la). For example he became quite chocked when he learnt that the mother(la) of muawiya(la) was a liver eater. Rest assured he did not revere him but he was ignorant about him. As a matter of fact he even admitted that Aisha did wrong by fighting against Imam Ali(as).

Now, since you mentioned Ziyarate Ashura and I hope you know it by heart; how does the ziyara mention these personalities such as muawiya(la) and marwan(la) and how does it mention the highly revered personalities? Do you see a clear difference in approach? Now should we take lessons of its hikmah?

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On 12/14/2017 at 6:58 AM, Sumerian said:

Yes, it was in refutation to the line before it brother. As clear as daylight.

That means no ihana at all to the respected figures of the other Islamic sects, either in private or in public. 

My dear bro, you are not understanding the paragraph. What you showed me is not a fatwa, it is someone explaining a fatwa of the marja', it is talking from a third person perspective not a first person. First the author starts off in third person perspective by stating what Imam Khamenei says about insults:   قال سماحة السيد القائد مراراً لا توجهوا الإهانات لمقدسات سائر المذاهب إذن يجب اجتناب هذه الممارسات (Imam Khamenei said repeatedly to not insult the sanctity of other sects, therefore avoid such acts)

Then the author stops right there with what the marja' states, and tells us what other people say in first person perspective:  :و النقطة الجديرة بالملاحظة هي أن البعض يقولون (Another point I'd like to make is that some people say:)

Then the author quotes what other people say in a third person perspective:  لا إشکال في أن نعلن في المجالس الخاصة ("There is no problem in cursing in secret majalis")

Then the author goes back to first person by answering the people from his own opinion and tells us the marja' never specified whether in public or private: :لكن سماحته لم يقيّد الأمر بأن يكون المجلس عاماً أو خاصاً، بل قال على نحو العموم (However the Sayed did not specify whether to not insult in public or secret, instead he said in a general sense: )

The author switches to third person and states the fatwa of the marja' once again: لا توجّهوا الإهانات لمقدسات سائر المسلمين، أي سائر الفرق الإسلامية (Do not insult the sanctity of other Muslims, any sanctity of the other sects in Islam)

As you can see brother, there is no fatwa of Imam Khamenei not allowing cursing in private. The marja' only has a general fatwa for la3n, he does not go into specifics and details about it.  

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On 12/14/2017 at 7:12 PM, Hassan- said:

My dear bro, you are not understanding the paragraph. What you showed me is not a fatwa, it is someone explaining a fatwa of the marja', it is talking from a third person perspective not a first person. First the author starts off in third person perspective by stating what Imam Khamenei says about insults:   قال سماحة السيد القائد مراراً لا توجهوا الإهانات لمقدسات سائر المذاهب إذن يجب اجتناب هذه الممارسات (Imam Khamenei said repeatedly to not insult the sanctity of other sects, therefore avoid such acts)

Then the author stops right there with what the marja' states, and tells us what other people say in first person perspective:  :و النقطة الجديرة بالملاحظة هي أن البعض يقولون (Another point I'd like to make is that some people say:)

Then the author quotes what other people say in a third person perspective:  لا إشکال في أن نعلن في المجالس الخاصة ("There is no problem in cursing in secret majalis")

Then the author goes back to first person by answering the people from his own opinion and tells us the marja' never specified whether in public or private: :لكن سماحته لم يقيّد الأمر بأن يكون المجلس عاماً أو خاصاً، بل قال على نحو العموم (However the Sayed did not specify whether to not insult in public or secret, instead he said in a general sense: )

The author switches to third person and states the fatwa of the marja' once again: لا توجّهوا الإهانات لمقدسات سائر المسلمين، أي سائر الفرق الإسلامية (Do not insult the sanctity of other Muslims, any sanctity of the other sects in Islam)

As you can see brother, there is no fatwa of Imam Khamenei not allowing cursing in private. The marja' only has a general fatwa for la3n, he does not go into specifics and details about it.  

This is from his official website where someone is explaining his fatwa. If the original fatwa is general, where is your proof that he allows cursing in private? The proof is upon you, because the fatwa so far is unconditional. You need proof for the condition you have added.

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On 12/14/2017 at 7:20 PM, Sumerian said:

This is from his official website where someone is explaining his fatwa. 

Yes and that 'someone' did not say in the paragraph you showed me that the marja' does not allow cursing in private.

On 12/14/2017 at 7:20 PM, Sumerian said:

If the original fatwa is general, where is your proof that he allows cursing in private? The proof is upon you, because the fatwa so far is unconditional. You need proof for the condition you have added.

No the onus is on you to prove it not me. In Islam everything is halal unless forbidden otherwise. I do not see any fatwa from Imam Khamenei that cursing in private is not allowed, if there is please prove it to me.

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On 12/14/2017 at 11:52 AM, Sirius_Bright said:

I know he won't give a fatwa like 'curse in private but not in public'. So please help me understand how he meant it is allowed in private.

Read what I said to the brother above. If you want my thoughts on it, the only reason why the marja' forbade cursing in public is because it causes fitnah among the Muslims. If one curses in private, this annihilates the root of the problem (fitnah), therefore it is illogical for him to not allow it in private.

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On 12/14/2017 at 7:24 PM, Hassan- said:

Yes and that 'someone' did not say in the paragraph you showed me that the marja' does not allow cursing in private.

No the onus is on you to prove it not me. In Islam everything is halal unless forbidden otherwise. I do not see any fatwa from Imam Khamenei that cursing in private is not allowed, if there is please prove it to me.

No, that someone refuted those who said we can do this in private. To which the reply was, the Sayyed said in general, to not cause ihana to the muqadasaat of the other sects.

As for "everything is halal until proven not" - that has nothing to do with what we are talking about. That is a Fiqhi qa3ida, while we are discussing the meaning of a fatwa that has already been stated.

If a mujtahid rules something is halal or haram without conditioning it, then his fatwa is mutlaq and it is taken as such. 

It's like if Sistani says wearing gold for men is haram, but then someone says "but did he say wearing gold for men in private is haram?".

That makes no sense. If the fatwa is general, then that's how it should be taken.

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On 12/14/2017 at 7:34 PM, Sumerian said:

No, that someone refuted those who said we can do this in private. To which the reply was, the Sayyed said in general, to not cause ihana to the muqadasaat of the other sects.

As for "everything is halal until proven not" - that has nothing to do with what we are talking about. That is a Fiqhi qa3ida, while we are discussing the meaning of a fatwa that has already been stated.

If a mujtahid rules something is halal or haram without conditioning it, then his fatwa is mutlaq and it is taken as such. 

It's like if Sistani says wearing gold for men is haram, but then someone says "but did he say wearing gold for men in private is haram?".

That makes no sense. If the fatwa is general, then that's how it should be taken.

The response of that 'someone' is not a refutation, all he did was restate the general ruling of cursing. Understanding why a marja' rules something as haram or halal is important. Gold for men is haram because the Quran and sunnah dictates it, but cursing is not forbidden in the Quran and sunnah, so why does the marja' not allow it? Well the marja' says it himself, it's because it causes fitnah. If cursing did not cause fitnah, the marja' would allow it. so if one curses in private, this does not cause fitnah which is the the sole reason why he forbid it, so logically speaking it is allowed to curse in private. 

Some people ask 'if the marja' allows it in private, why does the marja' not publicly say it's allowed to curse them in private?', well that's because it makes him look like a hypocrite if he did, imagine saying to a Sunni I will not curse abu bakr in front of you but I will curse him behind your back..., it would just makes us look bad, and for that reason is why the marja' does not give details about cursing, and only gives a general ruling.

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On 12/14/2017 at 8:09 PM, Hassan- said:

The response of that 'someone' is not a refutation, all he did was restate the general ruling of cursing. Understanding why a marja' rules something as haram or halal is important. Gold for men is haram because the Quran and sunnah dictates it, but cursing is not forbidden in the Quran and sunnah, so why does the marja' not allow it? Well the marja' says it himself, it's because it causes fitnah. If cursing did not cause fitnah, the marja' would allow it. so if one curses in private, this does not cause fitnah which is the the sole reason why he forbid it, so logically speaking it is allowed to curse in private. 

Some people ask 'if the marja' allows it in private, why does the marja' not publicly say it's allowed to curse them in private?', well that's because it makes him look like a hypocrite if he did, imagine saying to a Sunni I will not curse abu bakr in front of you but I will curse him behind your back..., it would just makes us look bad, and for that reason is why the marja' does not give details about cursing, and only gives a general ruling.

This is your own speculation brother.

You will need a fatwa to support your claim, so I suggest you mail the office.

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