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In the Name of God بسم الله

Should I be a Shia or Sunni Muslim?

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Also in  Surat Nisa 59 That is before 136 says

Holy Quran 4:59
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يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنكُمْ ۖ فَإِن تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ إِن كُنتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ خَيْرٌ وَأَحْسَنُ تَأْوِيلًا

O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.

Holy Quran 4:136
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يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا آمِنُوا بِاللَّهِ وَرَسُولِهِ وَالْكِتَابِ الَّذِي نَزَّلَ عَلَىٰ رَسُولِهِ وَالْكِتَابِ الَّذِي أَنزَلَ مِن قَبْلُ ۚ وَمَن يَكْفُرْ بِاللَّهِ وَمَلَائِكَتِهِ وَكُتُبِهِ وَرُسُلِهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ فَقَدْ ضَلَّ ضَلَالًا بَعِيدًا

O you who have believed, believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book that He sent down upon His Messenger and the Scripture which He sent down before. And whoever disbelieves in Allah, His angels, His books, His messengers, and the Last Day has certainly gone far astray.

that no136 emphasizes the verse no59 & also verse 59 refers to “sunnah”

that you can see in texts below also the “Jaber Hadith” that Jaber was from Sahaba of prophet mohammad(pbu)

also he was the first person that pilgrimages grave of Imam Hussain (as) because he was mourning for his Imam of Time if you follow the Sahaba why you don’t follow the Jaber Abdullah Ansari

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https://fa.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/آیه_اطاعت

https://fa.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/حدیث_جابر

The verse of obedience or the verse of Olivaalam is verse 59 of Surah Nisa. The Hadith Jaber has been described in the verse by the prophet of Islam in explaining the word Ulualamar in this verse. Contents Text and edit edit (The Surah Nisa-Verse 59), and the Lord's Word, and the Word of God, and the Word of God, and the Word of Allah, and the Lord Jesus Christ, O you who believe, obey God, and obey the Prophet and his fathers, so whenever you disagree on the matter, if you believe in Allah and the Last Day, believe it to Allah and [the Sunnah [Prophet] deliver it better and better. O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Apostle and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Apostle, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end. Interpretation of the edit In this verse, the definition of the concept and the meaning of the word "Ulualamar" is the main issue of Shiite and Sunni difference. [1] Shi edit Almost all Shia commentators agree that the term "Ouwalamir" refers to Shiite Imams. In the example's commentary, this point is stated: The material and spiritual leadership of the Islamic society has been entrusted to them by God and the Prophet at all levels of life, and they are not included in them. And of course, those who are appointed to their posts and placed in the Islamic community, with certain conditions, will need their obedience, not because they are the first, but because they are the first agents. [2] In a Shiite Qur'an, Daoud Fīrhi writes: According to the Shiite reason, "obedience" in the verse of God and Prophet and Oli'lamer is the reason for the infallibility of all three sources of authority, because obedience to the Imam and the fallible leader is contrary to the rules of reason. [1] Allameh Tabatabai is also in the commentary Al-Mizan considers one of the conditions of Olialamer as infallible, and the only example of this term is the fourteen infallible. [3] Abubsir of Mohammed bin Ali, the fifth Imam of the Shiites, quotes that this verse has been revealed in the dignity of Ali ibn Abi Talib, and in answer to the question why his name is not explicitly stated: God revealed the prayer to his messenger, but he never talked about three or four times his revelation. He revealed the zakat, but did not mention it in detail. He revealed the Hajj, but did not say anything about the number of Tawaf, and all of this detail was interpreted by the Prophet. This verse was revealed and the Prophet explained that he was about Ali, Hasan and Hossein ... [1] [4] [Needed source] Sunni edited Dawud Feirahi says that Muhammad b. Idriss Shafei "has gone a long way in interpreting the verse and the legitimacy of the caliphate of Rafshehil Caliphs." [1] [5] [Needed source] Edit footer ↑ 1. 0 1. 1 1. 2 1. 3 Fayyrah, David. "General Characteristics of the Shia Imamate". Shiite Quarterly, No. 3 & 4, quoted by Fars News Agency, September 13, 2005. Revised on August 2, 2009. ↑ Makarem Shirazi, Nasser Selected Sample Interpretation, Vol. 1. P. 414. ↑ Tabatabai, Mohammad Hussein. Interpretation of Al-Mizan, Vol. 2. P. 386. ↑ Nasseri, Ali Akbar (quoted by Hassan Abbas Hasan). Imamate and intercession. Tehran: Book Publishing Co., 1351. Pages 203-204. ↑ Firahi, David. "Sixth Season". In power; knowledge and legitimacy in Islam. Tehran: Nayan Rey, 1378. Pages 229-265.

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Hadith Jaber The Hadith of Jaber is a well-known hadith that the Shiites are trying to establish for Imamate. The name of this hadith comes from the name of Jaber ibn Abdullah Ansari, one of the companions of the Prophet of Islam. Hadith Text Jaber Editing After the revelation of the verse of obedience, Jaber ibn Abdullah Ansari asked the Prophet Muhammad: "Or the Messenger of Allah, we have recognized God and His messenger, we also need to know Allah." The Prophet answered: O Jaber, they are my successors and imams after me. The first is Ali Ibn Abi Talib and then in the following order: Hassan ibn Ali, Hossein ibn Ali, Ali ibn Hussein, Muhammad ibn Ali, who is known as Baqir in the Torah, and you will see him when he is old and whenever he is You see me greet me After Muhammad ibn Ali, Ja'far ibn Muhammad, Musa bin Ja'far, Ali ibn Musa, Muhammad ibn Ali, Ali ibn Muhammad, Hasan ibn Ali and after him are his son, his name is Muhammad and my companion (Abolqasem). . He is hidden from the point of view of the people and his absence lasts so long that only those who have a hard faith believe that they remain. [1] [2] [3] Sources of editing ↑ Apatity, Old Printing, p. 8 ↑ ينابي المودت, p. 494 ↑ Prophet Al-Daha, p. 3, p. 123

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48 minutes ago, Abul Hussain Hassani said:

Notice in the verse above there is no mention of Imamah or Imams that our Shia brothers believe in and that is what differentiates the two sides. If Imamah was from the foundations of religion why didn't Allah mention it like he mentioned the other beliefs? He mentioned belief in him, angels, messengers, books, the last day but not Imams?

Lol if dajjal is not mentioned in Quran that doesn't mean that he will not come. Where are the Sunni imams mentioned in holy Quran?

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Notice in the verse above there is no mention of Imamah or Imams that our Shia brothers believe in and that is what differentiates the two sides. If Imamah was from the foundations of religion why didn't Allah mention it like he mentioned the other beliefs? He mentioned belief in him, angels, messengers, books, the last day but not Imams?

Don't fall in this trap. Leadership (Imamah) is established in Qur'an already and Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى will ask about of your Imam;

(Remember) the day when We will call every people with their Imam; then whoever is given his book in his right hand, these shall read their book; and they shall not be dealt with a whit unjustly.

There are two Imams, One Who calls to Guidence and One who call to fire:

'And We made them Imams who call to the Fire, and on the Day of Resurrection they shall not be assisted.' 
"And We made of them Imams to guide by Our command when they were patient, and they were certain of Our communications.'

O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.

That is already foundation of your belief to obey those who have authority among us and that we will be raised with our Imam. We will be asked in our grave that who is our Imam and you are responsible to answer. Now tell me, will Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى leave final Ummah without Imams of guidance? And is not an Imam of Guidance those who only enjoy Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى obedience?

Also this is just an Salafi trick. They know very well that Sunnah is also part of religion and whatever you found there, you still need to obey it. For them you still need to obey Abu Bakr and Umar and reject them is Kufur! Where is their obedience made wajib in Qur'an?

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12 minutes ago, Abul Hussain Hassani said:

Thank you! so we agree there can be good and bad Imams. Can there be evil Prophets?

Here comes Mr. super muslim, best muslim ever, to save the day...

Hey, mr super muslim, when was the last time you payed zakat?

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O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.

That is already foundation of your belief to obey those who have authority among us and that we will be raised with our Imam. We will be asked in our grave that who is our Imam and you are responsible to answer.

 

Obey those in authority (they can be rulers, scholars, military generals etc) as long as they obey Allah and his Messenger.

Quote

Now tell me, will Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى leave final Ummah without Imams of guidance? And is not an Imam of Guidance those who only enjoy Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى obedience?

Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى left the Ummah with his FINAL revelation and message.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Abul Hussain Hassani said:

Thank you! so we agree there can be good and bad Imams. Can there be evil Prophets?

What do you think yourself?

Quote

Obey those in authority (they can be rulers, scholars, military generals etc) as long as they obey Allah and his Messenger.

 

So even if they have disobeyed God here and there, you think this Obedience that have put in same category than obeying the Prophet (saws) is still valid for them? Do you understand that Obey Authority among us is Obeying Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى? Does God make us Obey the Sinners who practice evil deeds?

But you are right, as long they Obey Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى and His messenger (saws), if they disobey Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى they are not to consider ones with authority. I don't find any one under to these category expect the Infallible Imams, divine choosed.

Quote

Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى left the Ummah with his FINAL revelation and message.

And without a leaders that teach and guide and protect the Ummah?

Edited by Dhulfikar
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:salam:

11 hours ago, Dhulfikar said:

What do you think yourself?

So even if they have disobeyed God here and there, you think this Obedience that have put in same category than obeying the Prophet (saws) is still valid for them? Do you understand that Obey Authority among us is Obeying Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى? Does God make us Obey the Sinners who practice evil deeds?

I already replied. Obey as long as they obey and Allah and His messenger (ص). As long as their actions are according to the Quran and Prophetic teachings.

Quote

But you are right, as long they Obey Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى and His messenger (saws), if they disobey Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى they are not to consider ones with authority. I don't find any one under to these category expect the Infallible Imams, divine choosed.

You can't disagree with the divinely chosen infallible Imams, can you? While the verse states the possibility of disagreement and in such a case Allah and messenger (ص) is the final judge.

Quote

And without a leaders that teach and guide and protect the Ummah?

Allah mentions as long you stick to the Quran, perform good deeds, establish prayer, give zakah etc then you will be guided and protected. The scholars and learned men will teach the people. Just like your scholars have been teaching and guiding you for the last 1200 years without any divinely chosen Imam.

 

 

Edited by Abul Hussain Hassani
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I already replied. Obey as long as they obey and Allah and His messenger (ص). As long as their actions are according to the Quran and Prophetic teachings.

 

What happen when they disobey Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى, they have no authority anymore? 

If any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path”  Surah Al Ahzab, verse 36

Also Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى have included Messenger and People of the authority in same category of obedience, and recall this verse:

The Messenger has more rights over us than we have over ourselves (33:6),

So it is impossible that the obey giving here means obey your ruler or your local sheikh, because none of them have such a rights. This authority is only given to those who will not fail in their authority, by disobeying God. 

Quote

Allah mentions as long you stick to the Quran, perform good deeds, establish prayer, give zakah etc then you will be guided and protected. The scholars and learned men will teach the people. Just like your scholars have been teaching and guiding you for the last 1200 years without any divinely chosen Imam.

And we have 73 sects and only one sect is saved,  and we have thousands upon thousands different claims and innovations and different schools of thoughts that can't even agree on themselves, and you call this guidance? Why do we even need Imam al-Mehdi that all of us agree upon him and who will lead and unite our Ummah by God commands, if we are already guided? This is the leader of Ummah I am talking about,  A leader that we can all agree upon and follow, and A leader must be choosed by God himself.

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1 hour ago, Abul Hussain Hassani said:

You can't disagree with the divinely chosen infallible Imams, can you? While the verse states the possibility of disagreement and in such a case Allah and messenger (ص) is the final judge.

if you can't disagree with the Prophet, the construct of the verse means you can't disagree with Ulil Amri also.

you see bro, verse

[Shakir 8:46] And obey Allah and His Messenger and do not quarrel for then you will be weak in hearts and your power will depart, and be patient; surely Allah is with the patient.

cleary says "...do not quarrel...".

while some people are interpreting the second part of verse [4:59]

[Shakir 4:59] O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end.

as allowing a possibility for disagreement/dispute/quarrel.

if i were present during the revelation of this verse, i would certainly asked the Prophet "who are these Ulil Amri, whose obedience is commanded by Allah".

the big question for those who seek the truth: shia has such ahadith.

to me, it's logical to ask the Prophet and illogical  not to ask.

actually i have a theory for this discrepancy. the early muslim caliphs forbade the recording/dissemination of ahadith related with Ulil Amri. as a result,  peope are of the opinion Ulil Amri are rulers or scholars or military commanders or sinless imams.

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35) The Prophet (P.B.U.H) said, “Ali (A.S) and his shi^a are the successful ones.” Ibn Al-Maghazeli, 47; Mizan Al-^Itidal, 2/31

3) The Prophet (P.B.U.H) said, “The carrier of my flag in this life and the Hereafter is Ali (A.S).” Kenz Al-Omal, 6/122; Al-Tabari, 2/201; Al-Khawarizmi, 250; Al-Fadha’il of Ahmad, 253; Ibn Al-Maghazeli, 42/200.

http://www.sibtayn.com/en/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2133:forty-seven-sayings-about-imam-ali-a-s-from-prophet-p-b-u-h&catid=263&Itemid=335 

47 sayings about Imam Ali (as) from prophet(pbu) 

38) The Prophet (P.B.U.H) said, “Ali (A.S) is the partition between Heaven and Hell.” Mustadrak Al-Sahihain of Al-Hakim Al-Nisabori, 3/127; Kenz Al-Omal, 5/30; Al-Jami^ of Al-Suyuti, 1/374; Al-Tirmidhi; Ibn Maghazeli,

42) The Prophet (P.B.U.H) said, “Ali (A.S) is from me and I am from him, and he is the protector of every true believer after me.” Ibn Al-Maghazeli, 69; Yanabi^ Al-Mawda, 125.

 

47) The Prophet (P.B.U.H) said, “Ali (A.S) stands in relation to me as my head to my body.” Mustadrak Al-Sahihain of Al-Hakim Al-Nisabori, 3/141; Al-Jami^ of Al-Suyuti, 1/583; Tarikh Baghdad of Al-Khateeb Al-Baghdadi, 1/51; HAliyat Al-Awliya’, 1/182; Al-Riyadh Al-Nudhra, 2/219.

 

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On Thursday, December 07, 2017 at 3:48 AM, ManofIslam said:

My Dearest Brothers and Sisters in Islam,

I hope I'm not making a nuisance of myself on this Forum, but it does seem like a very friendly Forum.

I've been a Muslim for almost three and a half years, now, and I've had a lot of Muslims telling me that Sunni Islam is the only true Islam and that it's the only one to follow!

However: I've watched some Shia scholars speaking on YouTube and they seem to be very good to me!

So should I choose between Shia and Sunni, or should I just say that I'm a Muslim, and leave it at that?!

Please advise me, if you don't mind, because I do still feel a bit lost in Islam!

Mr.You have asked a good question. And it is natural that all shias will tell you to become shia and sunni will tell you to become sunni. 

Why do you want to be one of two. Having a label of being shia or sunni doesn't matter in reality. Even though most of fundamental principles of Islam are common in both sects. 

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On 12/7/2017 at 3:18 AM, ManofIslam said:

My Dearest Brothers and Sisters in Islam,

I hope I'm not making a nuisance of myself on this Forum, but it does seem like a very friendly Forum.

I've been a Muslim for almost three and a half years, now, and I've had a lot of Muslims telling me that Sunni Islam is the only true Islam and that it's the only one to follow!

However: I've watched some Shia scholars speaking on YouTube and they seem to be very good to me!

So should I choose between Shia and Sunni, or should I just say that I'm a Muslim, and leave it at that?!

Please advise me, if you don't mind, because I do still feel a bit lost in Islam!

If you want to ask any question on Sunni Islam. Just Ask Me.

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7 minutes ago, islam25 said:

all shias will tell you to become shia and sunni will tell you to become sunni. 

To correct what you're saying, actually no one has forced him to become a Shia.

The OP is clearly interested in knowing more about Shia faith. All we did was provide him with some sources and it is up to him to decide at the end of the day.

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On 12/8/2017 at 9:08 AM, hoskot said:

if you can't disagree with the Prophet, the construct of the verse means you can't disagree with Ulil Amri also.

you see bro, verse

[Shakir 8:46] And obey Allah and His Messenger and do not quarrel for then you will be weak in hearts and your power will depart, and be patient; surely Allah is with the patient.

cleary says "...do not quarrel...".

:salam:

This verse is talking about different issue. Allah is telling the believers during the war not to quarrel with each other lest they be weak in hearts and lose power etc. 

Quote

while some people are interpreting the second part of verse [4:59]

[Shakir 4:59] O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end.

as allowing a possibility for disagreement/dispute/quarrel.

Exactly! just as the verse says.

Quote

if i were present during the revelation of this verse, i would certainly asked the Prophet "who are these Ulil Amri, whose obedience is commanded by Allah".

the big question for those who seek the truth: shia has such ahadith.

to me, it's logical to ask the Prophet and illogical  not to ask.

The Prophet (saw) already explained who the Ulil Amr refers to and the Muslims of his time also understood it.

Even the Iranian Supreme leader is called as "wali al-amr Muslimeen". Why?

As for the Ithna Ashari hadtih you are talking about then these are later twelver fabrications to suite their beliefs (plus it is also unreliable according to twelver Shia hadith standards). The Shia sects that existed before twelvers also have similar hadiths but they have their own list of Imams different than yours i.e. waqifis, fatahiya, zaidis, ismailis etc.

Quote

actually i have a theory for this discrepancy. the early muslim caliphs forbade the recording/dissemination of ahadith related with Ulil Amri. as a result,  peope are of the opinion Ulil Amri are rulers or scholars or military commanders or sinless imams.

The theory lacks any evidence.

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  1. The Qur’an as we have it today is a compilation of speech and utterances made over 23 years in direct response to individuals, events, situations. THe Quranic speech assumes the audience already knows the event/person/situation that it is talking about, so you seldom have proper names mentioned in the Quran for this reason - the Quran is addressing people who know the individuals or places or events being talked about. Tons of verses in the Quran are about Muhammad but he is mentioned by name only 4 times.
  2. The Qur’anic speeches were not the only guidance that came from God. Prophet Muhammad’s own words, instructions, and commands were as religiously binding on the believers as the Qur’anic speech was. So in many cases, the Prophet’s guidance supplemented a Quranic verse to make it clear or expand on what the verse is addressing.

When 1 and 2 are kept in mind and if we examine Tafsir and Hadith that Sunni and Shia agree about, we find that numerous verses in the Qur’an refer to Imam Ali and the Prophet’s family - Hasan, Husayn, and Fatimah.

In historical context, the Qur’an does refer to Imam ‘Ali in numerous verses as attested by all Shia and numerous Sunni commenators: he is one of the Ahl al-Bayt whom God has purified from all impurity and sins (33:33) and the near-kin (qurba) of the Prophet whose love is obligatory for Muslims (42:23). Imam ‘Ali is called the Guardian (wali) of the Believers after God and the Messenger (5:55), the Witness (shahid) from the Holy Prophet who verified him (11:17), and the Guide (hadi) of the community (13:7) after the Prophet. Imam ‘Ali is part of the holy progeny of Abraham from whom God appoints the Imams (2:124) and upon whom He has bestowed His guidance, wisdom and kingdom (4:54). Imam ‘Ali is mentioned in the verse of mubahala (3:61) as the self (nafs) of the Prophet Muhammad. Verse 76:5–22 is about the Ahl al-Bayt who went hungry for days after feeding poor people every night with their own food. Verse 5:67 of the Qur’an was revealed to the Prophet Muhammad in right before the Prophet’s final announcement at Ghadeer Khum where he announced that ‘Ali is the mawla of the believers.

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Hi the muawiah & other caliphs called Amir al mumenin although they didn’t  follow true Islam & didn’t  have the required condition for being Ulil Amir also muawiah called himself khal al momenin without any reliable reason & they started & spreaded all types of fabrications to show themselves the Ulil Amrs the supreme leader of Iranis guardian of Shia Islam until Imam Mahdi(aj) reappears thus have authority of being Wali Al amr mulemeen until his reappearance in order that take care of Shia Muslims 

the twelve Imams (as) introduced by prophet (pbu) that they introduced in Hadith of Jabir http://en.wikishia.net/view/Hadith_of_Lawh  That is authentetic but some groups during years separated their ways from their waysuch as waqifis that means they postpone Imamate because they couldn’t accept 9th Imam as their imam  & waited another person from ahlulbayt(as) becomes their Imam to continue to 12 Imams

Ismailis also choose the other son of 6th Imam (as) as their Imam That they say he will return as Mahdi 

the Zaidis  called the zaid & other persons that stands against enemies of Ahlulbayt(as) as Imam That after successfulship returnthe Immamate to real 12  Imams(as) 

so these groups were not before Ithna Ashari Shia Islam but emerged & separated from Twelvers 

the forbidding of narrating Hadith is not a theory & is a historical fact that muawiah started to erase memories of prophet (pbu) from minds of Muslims that you can see that Abuhanifa was student of Imam Sadiq (as) the 6th Imam of Shia Muslims that was head of other Sunni schools Imams Shafiei ,hanbaly , Maliki .

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The biography of Jabir ibn Abdullah Ansari the Companion (Sahaba)of prophet Mohammad  (pbu )& ahlulbayt  (as)

 

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12 hours ago, Abul Hussain Hassani said:

:salam:

This verse is talking about different issue. Allah is telling the believers during the war not to quarrel with each other lest they be weak in hearts and lose power etc. 

salam bro

i know what the preceding verse is all about. 
so you are saying, in peace time, muslims can quarrel among themselves and not be weak in heart and not lose power, like what's happening today?
i believe, quarrelling is the first step towards disobeying the verse
[Shakir 3:103] And hold fast by the covenant of Allah all together and be not disunited .....

12 hours ago, Abul Hussain Hassani said:

Exactly! just as the verse says.

totally agree with you if the verse ends like this,

"then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger."....... (1)

for my comprehension skill will then conclude it's permissible to quarrel but we must refer it to Allah and the Messenger. this is applicable to sahaba during the Prophet's lifetime.

after the Prophet's demise, logically muslims must refer to Ulil Amri as commanded by verse 4:59 due to the fact that we must obey Ulil Amri as we must obey the Messenger.

but surely

then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; ........ (2).

is not the same as in (1) above.

so sorry to say, your conclusion is totally out of place, to me.

12 hours ago, Abul Hussain Hassani said:

The Prophet (saw) already explained who the Ulil Amr refers to and the Muslims of his time also understood it.

pls do share with us the Prophet's explanation of who are these Ulil Amri.

12 hours ago, Abul Hussain Hassani said:

Even the Iranian Supreme leader is called as "wali al-amr Muslimeen". Why?

As for the Ithna Ashari hadtih you are talking about then these are later twelver fabrications to suite their beliefs (plus it is also unreliable according to twelver Shia hadith standards). The Shia sects that existed before twelvers also have similar hadiths but they have their own list of Imams different than yours i.e. waqifis, fatahiya, zaidis, ismailis etc.

wali and ulil means the same thing? i don't know enuf arabic, tbh.

the waqifis, fatahiya etc etc came much later.

what amaze me is right after the event of ghadir khum, (was it 3 or 6 months?), people disobeyed the Mesenger. But what is more amazing is  what Imam Ali (as) said to the jews, your feet have not yet dried but you have already disobeyed (or something to this effect).

12 hours ago, Abul Hussain Hassani said:

The theory lacks any evidence.

i use the word theory so as not to be too blunt about it bro. i believe the info is all out there, even in sahih bukhari/muslim.

peace.

Edited by hoskot
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Salam @hoskot if you see & read the comments before your comment of @Abul Hussain Hassani he asked as like as you that I didnt any difference between these two posts if you see post of below it I&@Goswami tried to answer it.

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54 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam @hoskot if you see & read the comments before your comment of @Abul Hussain Hassani he asked as like as you that I didnt any difference between these two posts if you see post of below it I&@Goswami tried to answer it.

salam bro

i'm quite lost here. if i said something wrong, do correct me pls. :confused:

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let's be pragmatic.

for the last 90 years or so, rallying behind "quran and sunnah", has failed the ummah miserably. One very sore point is the ummah failed to appoint a caliph, though the saying is "People disliked to be left even part of the day without being organized into a community (jama’ah)." [ed: without a caliph/leader]

moving forward, let's give "quran and ahlul bayt" a chance to prove itself.

the bonus point is we don't have worry about quranic verse 2:167.

[Shakir 2:167] And those who followed shall say: Had there been for us a return, then we would renounce them as they have renounced us. Thus will Allah show them their deeds to be intense regret to them, and they shall not come forth from the fire.

peace.

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  • Advanced Member (With Brothers Forum Membership)

Salam @hoskot you dont make mistake but two posts had similar questions.:grin:

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