Adl of Sahaba

[ShiaMan14]

Salaam,

Can someone please shed some light on the Adl of Sahaba concept my sunni brothers have?

My understanding is that anyone who saw the Prophet even for a millisecond while being a Muslim and died a Muslim is a sahabi. Immediately after laying eyes upon the Prophet, Allah instills a sense of adl in them to make them perfectly righteous to where they can do no wrong.

Is this correct?

[Ashvazdanghe]

‘Ali: The Best of the Sahabah

https://www.al-islam.org/ali-best-sahabah-toyib-olawuyi

Explicit Testimonies of Sahih Sunni Ahadith

AUTHOR(S): 

Toyib Olawuyi

This book is an in-depth academic critique, and a thoroughly investigative refutation, of Shaykh Ibn Taymiyyah’s Minhaj al-Sunnah on the specific question of Abu Bakr’s alleged superiority over Amir al-Muminin ‘Ali b. Abi Talib. The shaykh has adopted a two-pronged approach in his Minhaj. He presents arguments and proofs to support Abu Bakr’s superiority and discredits all arguments and proofs in favour of ‘Ali’s superiority. Toyib Olawuyi has however placed all the primary submissions, evidences and denials of Ibn Taymiyyah under the microscope and punctured every single one of them severely using the Book of Allah, the sahih ahadith of the Ahl al-Sunnah wa al-Jama’ah, and their strictest rijal verification methods. Full transparency, accuracy and accountability are strictly observed throughout our book, and we hope it will ease the way for every soul seeking to find out the real truth.

CATEGORY: 

Companions

Imam Ali

TOPIC TAGS: 

COMPANIONS

SUNNI-SHIA

MISCELLANEOUS INFORMATION: 

Copyright © 2014 Toyib Olawuyi All rights reserved. ISBN-13: 978-1492390497 ISBN-10: 1492390496

FEATURED CATEGORY: 

Debates & discussions

Introducing the Ahlul Bayt

Resources for Further Research

Shi'a beliefs explained

PERSON TAGS: 

Imam Ali (a)

[Ashvazdanghe]

Third, the monopoly of justice in some of the Companions; for example, Mazeri says, "When we say that the Companions are just, it does not mean that anyone who has seen the Prophet (s) has met, or he has met little by little, or is intent on his side, and shortly after He is gone "righteous," but our purpose is merely those who belonged to him, "and they were magnified and helped, and they followed the light that was revealed to them, they are the same prosperous. » ^[9]

9 Ibn Hajar, Alasabbah, vol. 1, p. 163; The last part of the speech of Mazari, quoted above, is Verse 157 of Surah al-A'raf , which has been mentioned as the reason for it.

http://fa.wikishia.net/view/نظریه_عدالت_صحابه

translated by google translate

[Ashvazdanghe]

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salaf

http://fa.wikishia.net/view/نظریه_عدالت_صحابه

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Ffa.wikishia.net%2Fview%2F%D9%86%D8%B8%D8%B1%DB%8C%D9%87_%D8%B9%D8%AF%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AA_%D8%B5%D8%AD%D8%A7%D8%A8%D9%87&edit-text=

http://www.adyannet.com/fa/news/13948

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fa&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.adyannet.com%2Ffa%2Fnews%2F13948

 

[Ashvazdanghe]

The justice of the Companions from the perspective of Shia and Sunni 

In order to understand whether all the Companions of the Prophet were just and righteous, first we must become familiar with the definition of "Companions" and also the concept of "justice" and "oppression": 
Definition of "Companions" 
When we refer to the book, "Sahaba" means meaning (4), but Islamic scholars differ in their definition of the term (5): 
"Ibn Hajar (6)" defined the Companions as follows: "The Companions are the one who saw the Prophet and believes in him, and the Muslim is dead, but whether he has gone to war with the Prophet, or even if he is seen, but He has not been companion to him and has not seen his Holiness for the sake of his blindness 
"Sa'id bin Masib" says: "Companions are one who has been with the Prophet for one year or two years and has been involved with him in one or two battles" (7). 

[Ashvazdanghe]

1. with the Shiite Al-Imamiya per Qaydhm Page 172 line 14 and the translation of teachers Almdrstyn Volume 1, page 135, line 4 
2 with the Shiite Al-Imamiya per Qaydhm Page 168 line 10 
3 the same page 168 line 13 
4 -Lsan Arabian Volume 1 Page 603 line 12 
5 to define world objects There are three ways: 
6. the definition of verbal two-define as masculine 3. the true definition: the true definition of objects of the world is almost impossible and scholars from sensible like Ibn Sina and Mulla Sadra to this stipulate (Asfarjld 2 page 25 lines) Therefore, to understand the meanings of the objects of the definition of words and description noun used 
7. Translation Malm Almdrstyn Volume 1, page 127, line 4 
8. Shi responds Page 85 Line 9 
9 the same page 85, line 12 
10 86 the first line of 
one of the 86 third line. According to this view people like Abu Sufyan, Muawiyah, Amr ibn al and the companions of the Prophet are 
12 translations Malm Teachers Volume 1 Page 128 line 16 But some of those Imami ((Companions)) as the public has been defined as second martyr in the book ((Daryh)) in the definition of ((Companions) say: (companion of the one who Prophet seen and believed in him and the Muslim world is gone)) translation Malm Almdrsyn Volume 1, page 127, footnote 
13 languages Arabian Volume 11, page 514, line 22, page 515, line 6 
14 vocabulary almohit page 948 line 11 
15 We eventually Ibn Athir Volume 3 page 19 line 15 
16 language al Volume 12, page 432 page 434 line 27 and line 
17 vocabulary almohit 1045 page 22 line 
18 Alasabh per distinguish Alsahbh Volume 1 page 17 quotes translated Malm Almdrstyn Volume 1 page 138 line 4 
19 Nqdmh Almrfh Book Lkhrj and Altdyl Sfhh7-9 quoted Malm translations Almdrstyn Volume 1 Page 135 line 6, page 136 
20. Assad Alghalbh Volume 1 Page 3, citing the translator Malm Almdrstyn Volume 1 Page 137 line 15 
21 Chapter Munafiqun verse 1 
22 Chapter cells, verse 6 
23 Ahzab verse 12 
24 Surah Tawbah verse 102 
25 commentary communities Jamea Volume 2, page 90, line 9 
26 commentary smoothness Volume 6, page 31 12 line 
27, the third line of page 32 
28 this verse was revealed during the battle of Uhud. Abu Sufyan after the war, the Prophet said, We promise next year, but after a year of Abu Sufyan power war with the Prophet did so ((Naim bin Masood)) on the work that the Medina and the Muslims fight Hzr have and scare, when Naim bin Masood said that (the people's tall Jmva you to fast Fakhshvhm) some of the people were afraid and wanted to go to war with the Prophet while others bravely went out to war, Abu Sufyan feared in battle was not present. (Tafsir Safi Volume 6 Page 153 and 154 
: 29 Commentary smoothness Volume 1 Page 371 Line 6 
30 the same page 371 line 10 
31 interpretation smoothness Volume 6 Page 516 line 12 
32 Description of Nahj al-Balagha by Ibn Abi Al Udeid quoted by tafsir Safi Volume 2 page 126 line 8 
33 Hyah hearts Volume 4 page 941 and 942 line 11 
34 It is true that the verse 207 of Surah Baqarah in praise of Imam Ali is revealed, but - as mentioned - the narrative of his own quotes can be the verse to other companions of the Prophet (PBUH) extended. 
35 Shiite Al-Imamiya fi opinions page 175, the second line 
36 Bukhari Volume 3, page 515 line 17 of Altfsyr, Bob (Vknt Al Shahida) 
37 Bukhari Volume 4 page 1165 line 28 books Alrqaq (the fi Alhvz) 
38 Bukhari Volume 4 page 1166 line 14 books Alrqaq the fi Alhvz 
39 as 
40 as 
41 as 
42 of the 
43 Bukhari Volume 3, page 1167, line 2 books per Alhvz Alrqaq of 
44 the line 22 
45 eve role in the history of Islam, Volume 2, page 15, first line with little modification. (Translated by Mohammad Sadegh Najmi - H. Harris) 
46 Saqifa Allameh Askari page 20, line 26 (footer) 
47 downs of the history of the Prophet Page 451, line 21, page 252 
48 same page 453 line 11 
of 49 the eve of the history of Islam, Volume 3 page 60 line 21 
50 adhesive Abvalkhrj Esfahani 6 / 355-356, Alastyab, page 690, quoting Saqifa Allameh Askari page 140, the third line 
51 page 141 the first line 
52 on the eve of Islam 3 59 60 
53 Uhlik Kalanan Bell Azl Uhlik the Alghaflvn (Araf -179) 
54, such as 9 hadith of the Prophet about some of the Companions quoted. 
Malm Almdrsyn Volume 1 Page 275 line 55 15 
56. See the book on the eve of Islam, Volume 3 page 50 line - 

Sources: 
Quran 
FIROOZABAD, Majd al-Din Muhammad ibn Ya'qub / lexicon almohit / Darahya’ TURATH Arabic / Beirut /1424H.q 
Sobhani, J / Qaydhm with the Shiite Al-Imamiya Fi / Publishing Hiram, (technical dismissal of Imam Sadiq (peace) in Qom ) / Tehran / 1427 AH 
Asgari, Seyed Morteza / Saqifa / Publications cultural center Munir / Tehran / 1385 AD 
heaters, M / Sahih Bukhari / Publishing Daralsadr / Beirut /1425H.q,2004M 
Sobhani, J / downs of history Messenger / Publishing Hiram / Tehran // 1378 Do 
Hosseininasab, Seyyed Reza / Shia answers / Publishing Hiram / Tehran /1387H.sh 
Asgari, Seyed Morteza / Malm Almdrsytn (translated by Mohammad Jawad Karami) / Press Department of principles L Dean / Qom /1379H.sh 
Palmer, N / translation of the Holy Quran / School Publishing Ali bin Abi Talib / Qom / 1378 AD
Kashani, Mohammad (Mullah Mohsen) / fi Tafsir al-Safi books / publications Daralktab Islamiyah / Tehran /1419H.q,1377H.sh 
Ibn al-Athir, Mubarak bin Mohammed / We eventually / Publishing Daraltfsyr / Qom /1384H.sh 
Ibn Manzur, M / language Arabian / Publishing Daralktab Allmyh / Beirut /1424H.q2003M 
Asgari, Seyed Morteza / her role in the history of Islam (translated Srdarnya Atta Mohammad, Mohammad Sadegh Najmi Vhashm Harris) / publishing written / Tehran / 1368 AD. Sh 
Tabarsi, Fazl ibn Hassan / interpretation Jamea communities / institutes spread Islam / Qom / 1424 AH.

[Ashvazdanghe]

http://alshiah.persianblog.ir/post/177

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Falshiah.persianblog.ir%2Fpost%2F177&edit-text=

[Ashvazdanghe]

 

منابع و مآخذ :
قرآن مجید
فیروزی آبادی ،مجد الدین محمدبن یعقوب/قاموس المحیط /داراحیاء تراث العربیه/بیروت /1424ه.ق
سبحانی،جعفر / مع شیعه الامامیه فی عقائدهم / انتشارات مشعر ،(اخراج فنی موسسه امام صادق (علیه سلام )قم)/تهران/1427 ه.ق 
عسگری ،سید مرتضی / سقیفه / مرکز فرهنگی انتشارات منیر /تهران /1385ه .ش
بخاری ،محمد /صحیح بخاری / انتشارات دارالصادر /بیروت /1425ه.ق،2004م
سبحانی ،جعفر/فراز های از تاریخ پیامبر/ انتشارات مشعر/تهران//1378ه.ش
حسینی نسب،سید رضا/شیعه پاسخ می دهد/انتشارات مشعر/تهران /1387ه.ش
عسگری، سید مرتضی /معالم المدرسیتن(ترجمه محمد جواد کرمی)/ انتشارات دانشکده اصول دین / قم /1379ه.ش
مکارم ،ناصر/ترجمه قرآن کریم / انتشارات مدرسه علی بن ابی طالب / قم/ 1378ه.ش
کاشانی،محمد (ملا محسن)/کتاب الصافی فی تفسیر القرآن / انتشارات دارالکتاب الاسلامیه /تهران /1419ه.ق،1377ه.ش
ابن اثیر ،مبارک بن محمد /نهایه / انتشارات دارالتفسیر /قم /1384ه.ش
ابن منظور ،محمد /لسان العرب /انتشارات دارالکتاب العلمیه/بیروت /1424ه.ق2003م
عسگری ،سید مرتضی /نقش عایشه در تاریخ اسلام (ترجمه عطا محمد سردارنیا ،محمد صادق نجمی وهاشم هریسی)/نشر مکتوب / تهران /1368 ه. ش
طبرسی ، فضل بن حسن / تفسیر جوامع الجامع / موسسه نشر اسلامی /قم/1424 ه.ق

منبع:http://www.rasekhoon.net

[Muslim2010]

14 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

Salaam,

Can someone please shed some light on the Adl of Sahaba concept my sunni brothers have?

My understanding is that anyone who saw the Prophet even for a millisecond while being a Muslim and died a Muslim is a sahabi. Immediately after laying eyes upon the Prophet, Allah instills a sense of adl in them to make them perfectly righteous to where they can do no wrong.

Is this correct?

This is not correct in the light of the verses of Quran. The Quran does mention the companions and addresses them in three manner:

1.  The companions who were Muslims righteous and believers during the life of the prophet saaw and after him

2.  The companions who were Muslims and believers during the life of the prophet saaw but used to disobey the prophet saaw on many occasions even in his life

3.  The companions who were Muslims but they were threatened by quran that they might go out of fold of islam.  They are hypocrites. Also their actions were proven to be against the teaching of quran and sayings of the prophet saaw after his life.

And none of above mentioned group  can be considered equal to others.

wasalam

Edited November 30, 2017 by skyweb1987

[Muslim2010]

8 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

‘Ali: The Best of the Sahabah

https://www.al-islam.org/ali-best-sahabah-toyib-olawuyi

 

Brother Imam Ali AS is not included in the companions/ sahaba. He is  included in Ahl albayt of the prophet saaw. and they are kept purified by the verse of purification and all rijs is kept away from them.

He is mentioned as self of the holy prophet saw according to the  verse of Mubahila (3:61). Ahl albaayt. AS.can not be compared with the companions as their supremacy over the ummah is predominantly proven by the event of mubahila in quran.

wasalam

Edited November 30, 2017 by skyweb1987

[ShiaMan14]

Thank you @Ashvazdanghe and @skyweb1987

[Urwatul Wuthqa]

On 11/30/2017 at 4:56 AM, shiaman14 said:

My understanding is that anyone who saw the Prophet even for a millisecond while being a Muslim and died a Muslim is a sahabi.

You should base the defination of "sahabi" on this verse specifically:

Surah Al-Hujraat, Verse 15:
إِنَّمَا الْمُؤْمِنُونَ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا بِاللَّهِ وَرَسُولِهِ ثُمَّ لَمْ يَرْتَابُوا وَجَاهَدُوا بِأَمْوَالِهِمْ وَأَنفُسِهِمْ فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ أُولَٰئِكَ هُمُ الصَّادِقُونَ

The believers are only those who believe in Allah and His Apostle then they doubt not and struggle hard with their wealth and their lives in the way of Allah; they are the truthful ones.
(English - Shakir)

 

[Ashvazdanghe]

Hi I copied the title of the book anyway Imam Ali (as)is the best roll model for al Sahaba the all of ahlulbayt  counts as true Sahaba  with highest rank among them even the Oweis al Qarani  that didn't see prophet (pbu) is counted as Sahaba

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uwais_al-Qarani

 

[Mansur Bakhtiari]

On 11/29/2017 at 6:56 PM, shiaman14 said:

Salaam,

Can someone please shed some light on the Adl of Sahaba concept my sunni brothers have?

My understanding is that anyone who saw the Prophet even for a millisecond while being a Muslim and died a Muslim is a sahabi. Immediately after laying eyes upon the Prophet, Allah instills a sense of adl in them to make them perfectly righteous to where they can do no wrong.

Is this correct?

The vast majority of Sunni scholars agree with this definition. Funny how the Quran itself rejects this idea, and tells us very clearly that there are hypocrites among those near the Prophet (saw). In Surah Tauba (9):

And the first forerunners [in the faith] among the Muhajireen and the Ansar and those who followed them with good conduct - Allah is pleased with them and they are pleased with Him, and He has prepared for them gardens beneath which rivers flow, wherein they will abide forever. That is the great attainment. (100) And among those around you of the bedouins are hypocrites, and [also] from the people of Madinah. They have become accustomed to hypocrisy. You, [O Muhammad], do not know them, [but] We know them. We will punish them twice [in this world]; then they will be returned to a great punishment. (101)

Sunni's use the verse before it in debates so often, yet they don't ever flip the page. There are also Quranic verses which condemn the actions of the "Sahaba" as well. IF you are familiar with the Calamity of Thursday, then this verse should come to mind.

Surah Hujurat:
O you who have believed, do not raise your voices above the voice of the Prophet or be loud to him in speech like the loudness of some of you to others, lest your deeds become worthless while you perceive not. (2)

No Sunni can prove their definition from the Quran and Sunnah, because the Quran already goes against their belief.

 

[haideriam]

Anyone who hides the truth(kufr) will always be confused for he then has to invent man made conjecture to fit his doctrine. 

This Adalah of Sahaba and the reward of the person who reaches a wrong Ijtehadi conclusion. (1 reward) are the most absurd of all. 

I will try and link an article by a sister.

[Intellectual Resistance]

The Sunni position:

Anyone who met , heard, or saw the Prophet (saw) and died whilst at least openly being upon Islam is regarded as a 'Sahibi'. Thus, whatever they relate from the Prophet (saw) is truth, because they undoubtedly are all upright and righteous, though not infallible and could err and disagree with each other, or make errors in their 'ijtihad', such as 'Ameer' Muawiyah who Allah will reward for fighting Ali ibn Abi Talib 'ra', because the one who performs an Ijtihad will have one reward if he is wrong, and two rewards if he is right. Therefore all one has to do is have a chain that goes to a companion, whoever they were, and that companion is not scrutinised after it has been established they were a companion and the tradition is taken unconditionally. Furthermore, companions are also excluded from being in the Mukhtalit, meaning even if they grew old and had memory lapses, unlike anyone who comes after them, their traditions are not weakened. Some go so far as saying Allah looked at the souls, and chose the best to be Prophets, and looked at the other souls, and chose the best of the remainder to be the Sahaba.

I say: 

This demonstrates with the greatest of respects to our dear Sunni brothers, that while Sunni Islam is built on a foundation of idealism, Shia Islam is built on a foundation of realism.

 

Edited December 24, 2017 by Intellectual Resistance

[ShiaMan14]

2 hours ago, Intellectual Resistance said:

The Sunni position:

Anyone who met , heard, or saw the Prophet (saw) and died whilst at least openly being upon Islam is regarded as a 'Sahibi'. Thus, whatever they relate from the Prophet (saw) is truth, because they undoubtedly are all upright and righteous, though not infallible and could err and disagree with each other, or make errors in their 'ijtihad', such as 'Ameer' Muawiyah who Allah will reward for fighting Ali ibn Abi Talib 'ra', because the one who performs an Ijtihad will have one reward if he is wrong, and two rewards if he is right. Therefore all one has to do is have a chain that goes to a companion, whoever they were, and that companion is not scrutinised after it has been established they were a companion and the tradition is taken unconditionally. Furthermore, companions are also excluded from being in the Mukhtalit, meaning even if they grew old and had memory lapses, unlike anyone who comes after them, their traditions are not weakened. Some go so far as saying Allah looked at the souls, and chose the best to be Prophets, and looked at the other souls, and chose the best of the remainder to be the Sahaba.

Thanks brother. So how did this happen? I , for one, believe in the miraculous nature of the Prophet. So if seeing the Prophet immediately turns an Arab into an upright and righteous individual for life, I can accept it even though there is nothing in the Quran about this.

But it does beg a question. When Surah Najm states the Prophet does not speak but what is revealed to him, my Sunni brothers say that it is only for revelation. For everything else, it was just Muhammad (saw) and not Prophet Muhammad (saw).

If we apply the same logic to the sahaba, wouldn't they only be upright and righteous while in front of the Prophet when he was receiving revelation. After all, if the Prophet was a regular person outside of revelation, wouldn't the same apply to the sahaba?

3 hours ago, Intellectual Resistance said:

I say: 

This demonstrates with the greatest of respects to our dear Sunni brothers, that while Sunni Islam is built on a foundation of idealism, Shia Islam is built on a foundation of realism.

Very well said.

[just a muslim]

1 hour ago, shiaman14 said:

But it does beg a question. When Surah Najm states the Prophet does not speak but what is revealed to him, my Sunni brothers say that it is only for revelation. For everything else, it was just Muhammad (saw) and not Prophet Muhammad (saw).

should have tagged me if you were gonna make an incorrect analogy.

1 hour ago, shiaman14 said:

If we apply the same logic to the sahaba, wouldn't they only be upright and righteous while in front of the Prophet when he was receiving revelation. After all, if the Prophet was a regular person outside of revelation, wouldn't the same apply to the sahaba?

incorrect analogy. prophet pbuh received revelation. sahaba didnt. how are the two even comparable?

[ShiaMan14]

4 hours ago, just a muslim said:

should have tagged me if you were gonna make an incorrect analogy.

incorrect analogy. prophet pbuh received revelation. sahaba didnt. how are the two even comparable?

I am asking a question. If the Prophet only speaks Allah's desires intermittently, then is the miracle of turning an ordinary man into upright and righteous also Intermittent or permanent? That's all.

How is it permanent?

Additionally, if seeing the Prophet (saw) has these benefits, what does hearing the Prophet and touching the Prophet (saw) do?

[just a muslim]

20 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

I am asking a question. If the Prophet only speaks Allah's desires intermittently, then is the miracle of turning an ordinary man into upright and righteous also Intermittent or permanent? That's all.

the prophet or the miracle have nothing to do with the permanency of the man being righteous. that depends solely on the person and whether Allah wishes to guide that person.

[Ahmed_516478]

13 hours ago, Intellectual Resistance said:

I say: 

This demonstrates with the greatest of respects to our dear Sunni brothers, that while Sunni Islam is built on a foundation of idealism, Shia Islam is built on a foundation of realism.

 

Seems to also correspond to the political reality among Muslims today. 

[justAnothermuslim]

16 hours ago, Intellectual Resistance said:

I say: 

This demonstrates with the greatest of respects to our dear Sunni brothers, that while Sunni Islam is built on a foundation of idealism, Shia Islam is built on a foundation of realism.

salam bro

[the bolded portion is mine]. was saqifa, as an exampe, a part of that idealism?

[justAnothermuslim]

21 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

Thanks brother. So how did this happen? I , for one, believe in the miraculous nature of the Prophet. So if seeing the Prophet immediately turns an Arab into an upright and righteous individual for life, I can accept it even though there is nothing in the Quran about this.

But it does beg a question. When Surah Najm states the Prophet does not speak but what is revealed to him, my Sunni brothers say that it is only for revelation. For everything else, it was just Muhammad (saw) and not Prophet Muhammad (saw).

If we apply the same logic to the sahaba, wouldn't they only be upright and righteous while in front of the Prophet when he was receiving revelation. After all, if the Prophet was a regular person outside of revelation, wouldn't the same apply to the sahaba?

you did score a big point here. maybe the condition they were upright and righteous when relating ahadith while the Prophet was alive is more palatable.

the problem is that for some:

it's ok if Quran reprimanded the Prophet for frowning but it's a big taboo if that were to happen to a sahabi.

[Intellectual Resistance]

22 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

Thanks brother. So how did this happen? I , for one, believe in the miraculous nature of the Prophet. So if seeing the Prophet immediately turns an Arab into an upright and righteous individual for life, I can accept it even though there is nothing in the Quran about this.

But it does beg a question. When Surah Najm states the Prophet does not speak but what is revealed to him, my Sunni brothers say that it is only for revelation. For everything else, it was just Muhammad (saw) and not Prophet Muhammad (saw).

If we apply the same logic to the sahaba, wouldn't they only be upright and righteous while in front of the Prophet when he was receiving revelation. After all, if the Prophet was a regular person outside of revelation, wouldn't the same apply to the sahaba?

Very well said.

I believe many of the more orthodox Sunnis do believe he is infallible and M'asum, and that whatever he relays about pretty much most things is what was taught to him from Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى but it isn't an identical concept as our view on his infallibility is higher than their view. He relayed al-Qudsi for example, he gave rulings on Fiqh issues, he foretold the future, he spoke about events in the past, and many of these things could only have been taught to him from Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى. He did not engage in vain and worthless talk. 

However, we Shia don't believe at every single second every act of his was just revelation. For example in Surah Tahrim, at the very end of Juzz 28, he is asked why he has made something unlawful for himself out of stringency upon himself that Allah had made permissible for him, just to please his wives? This was the incident Aisha and Hafsah the wives of the Prophet (saw) sought to deceive him and plot against him as is relayed in Saheeh al-Bukhari, to cause disunity between him and his wife Zaynab.  

I think the philosophy behind the Sunni position of the companions is that the words of the Prophet (saw) do not depend solely on what he said, but they are actually more dependent on those who heard from him and related to others. They use verses of the Quran to try to prove the general Adalah of the companions (and this is flawed), and have a system of 'Tawfiq Aaam and Tawfiq Khaas' general and specific. 

In your example, even though the Prophet (saw) would not be receiving revelation, Sunnis accept at all other times he only spoke but was truth and Haq. They affirm the aspect that he does not err in the sense of his general life and things he relays and teaches.  They then expand this to what the companions have relayed from him, although the companions in and oft themselves can dispute, err and make mistakes.

Either-way, while we believe the Prophet (saw) was protected by divine power and will, to assume every single person who saw him and died openly as a Muslim is somehow immune from what faults have afflicted any large body of people in all of history, is just idealism. There has never been such a precedent ever set before, but rather we find for every Prophet of God , people being of varying ranks. 

[Intellectual Resistance]

8 hours ago, justAnothermuslim said:

salam bro

[the bolded portion is mine]. was saqifa, as an exampe, a part of that idealism?

Walaykum Salaam,

I think Saqifah is a complicated issue that is peripheral to this particular discussion. What i believe is Idealism is stating that anyone who heard or saw the Prophet (saw) and died openly as a Muslim becomes righteous and upright. This ignores the fact for any large body or group of people you have individuals of varying ranks and characters. It also ignores the nations and people of the previous Prophets of God, and sets a precedent that defies what is rational. 

Shia Muslims see the companions in the way the Quran does - they are those who are upon varying ranks. Simply hearing from the Prophet of God once and dying openly as a Muslim is not enough to claim that individual is upright, righteous and only transmit the truth accurately. 

Does mere companionship of the Prophet (saw), however brief make one immunised from corruption?

"Allah presents an example of those who disbelieved: the wife of Noah and the wife of Lot. They were under two of Our righteous servants but betrayed them, so those prophets did not avail them from Allah at all, and it was said, "Enter the Fire with those who enter." [Surah Tahrim Verse 10]

[Sumerian]

16 hours ago, Intellectual Resistance said:

I believe many of the more orthodox Sunnis do believe he is infallible and M'asum, and that whatever he relays about pretty much most things is what was taught to him from Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى but it isn't an identical concept as our view on his infallibility is higher than their view. He relayed al-Qudsi for example, he gave rulings on Fiqh issues, he foretold the future, he spoke about events in the past, and many of these things could only have been taught to him from Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى. He did not engage in vain and worthless talk. 

According to the mukhalifeen he is masoom and protected in tabligh and from great sins. As for small sins and mistakes, that's a different story, as their scholars differed on this issue historically.

Edited December 26, 2017 by Sumerian

[ShiaMan14]

18 hours ago, justAnothermuslim said:

you did score a big point here. maybe the condition they were upright and righteous when relating ahadith while the Prophet was alive is more palatable.

the problem is that for some:

it's ok if Quran reprimanded the Prophet for frowning but it's a big taboo if that were to happen to a sahabi.

Brother - The Sunni position is that the Prophet (saw) offended the blind. That would directly contradict with the Quran claiming that the Prophet (saw) is rehmat-al-alameen (mercy/blessing to the World).

The shia position based on the events around the blind man is that it was Caliph Uthman who offended the blind. It is simple Ummaya propaganda to lay blame on the Prophet (saw) rather than Caliph Uthman.

But this a different topic and I am sure well discussed on SC elsewhere.

[Abu Nur]

I was reading an Sunni article of Quranic proof for this concept and it is really not a proof at all. They quoted verses :

Quran, al-Baqarah, 13, 

Quran, Aal-Imraan, 110, 

Quran, Tauwba, 100, 

I can not come to conclusion from these verses to assume all companions being adl. The only reason why they quoted these verses is because they have tafasirs of these verses to support the interpretation that all of the companions were adl. And I'm not surprised of these tafasirs who are heavely filtered to support sahabas in good light. 

 

Edited May 9, 2023 by Abu Nur

[Ethics]

I find it so ironic that our sunni brothers try so hard to make it seem as if sahaba is infallible but they are so quick and easy to claim that prophet muhammad had the devil in him and commits sins and so forth. But besides such a skewed representation, the simple fact that prophets own wives, children, and family members were cast into hell leaves no argument for anyone, that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has not chosen, to be given status or ranking just by the proximity to the prophet...

Edited May 9, 2023 by Ethics