Saudi Arabia's Great Gamble

[Muslim2010]

This is a nice article about the KSA in the light of history of Islam and current political situation in the region.

Saudi Arabia's Great Gamble

The detail can be seen at the given link:

http://nationalinterest.org/feature/saudi-arabias-great-gamble-23348

wasalam

Comments on it are welcome.

[Haji 2003]

It's an interesting piece. But I think it suffers from a fatal flaw. There is hardly any mention of Israel. It simply sees Middle eastern rivalry in terms of Saudi vs. Iran.

It was partly Israeli pressure that led to the 2003 Gulf war. The destabilisation of Syria and the possible clipping of Hezbollah's wings were as much if not more in the interests of Israel than those of Saudi.

I think it is easy to make references to things such as Saudi wanting to have more legitimacy or regional power as compared to Iran. But the fact remains that Sunnis are Sunnis and will take their doctrinal lead from a Sunni nation. There is only a very limited extent to which Iran can take a leadership role - in terms of religious doctrine.

So I am wary of dressing this up purely in terms of Iran vs. Saudi.

It's like dressing up Arab/Persian rivalry in terms of Saddam vs. Khomeini. There may have been some rivalry, but the bigger picture was the desire by international powers to kill the revolution at birth and Saddam was a useful tool.

In contrast, if you look at the Iran vs. Israel dynamic there is far far more at play.

Remove Iran and its allies and any support for an equitable solution to the Israel vs. Palestinian issue evaporates. You'd likely have some sort of sell out of the Palestinians funded by the Arab states.

Remove that barrier to Israeli/Muslim relations and you'd have far more scope for Israelis to play a more active political and economic role in the middle east - while at the same time running an apartheid state.

[Haji 2003]

^ of course the author's affiliation may have something to do with his unit of analysis. He's an academic at an American university.

In order to keep his job he has to keep his focus narrow. Anything broader and he may be accused of conspiracy theories, or worse.

[hasanhh]

@Haji 2003 l thought lsrael was adequately related to the article's theme.

0ne point that struck me was in paragraph five where the author mentions that lran is also a model of an lsIamic state, That lran's model is "better" not only irks KSA but the USA also.

[Haji 2003]

^ OK I did a word search through all the pages of the article.

This is the first reference to Israel:

Quote

 

Hezbollah, although a product of the Lebanese context of sectarian civil war and Israeli occupation 

 

 

 

This is the second

Quote

Not only are the goals of the two parties in sync, Iran offers firm support for Hezbollah’s policies within Lebanon and toward Israel, which are crafted in south Beirut and not in Tehran.

 

This is the third.

Quote

Saudi Arabia’s latest move to build a common front with Israel to confront common enemy Iran

 

In all those references, the Israeli role is presented as being entirely passive i.e. in terms of how other players in the region are addressing Israel.

Other than the reference to the occupation of Lebanon there is nothing at all about any Israeli policy or agenda or any desire on its part to influence what is happening.

That could well be true.

The only problem is that we have Ariel Sharon on the record as asking for war on Iran after the attack on Iraq and that was in 2002:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/attack-iran-the-day-iraq-war-ends-demands-israel-gnggkk7pzbw

I don't recall anything like that coming from the Saudis.

[Muslim2010]

19 minutes ago, Haji 2003 said:

In all those references, the Israeli role is presented as being entirely passive i.e. in terms of how other players in the region are addressing Israel.

Other than the reference to the occupation of Lebanon there is nothing at all about any Israeli policy or agenda or any desire on its part to influence what is happening.

That could well be true.

Yes it looks so  this could be the result of present political scenario in the region and because  of  2006 after war effects

[hoskot]

the article sorely missed the initiative taken by MBS 2 years ago to form an islamic army among sunni-dominated countries.

and last sunday, 40 islamic countries gathered in riyadh.

Officials have described the coalition as a grouping that would allow member states to request or offer assistance among themselves in fighting groups they designate as terrorists.

The coalition will focus not only on a military, security and intelligence track but also efforts to combat terrorist financing and ideology.

http://www.arabnews.com/node/1199396/saudi-arabia

will sunni-dominated countries follow the footstep of qatar: dare to say no to saudi's bullying tactics?

 

[hasanhh]

On 11/27/2017 at 1:58 AM, hoskot said:

the article sorely missed the initiative taken by MBS 2 years ago to form an islamic army among sunni-dominated countries.

and last sunday, 40 islamic countries gathered in riyadh.

Officials have described the coalition as a grouping that would allow member states to request or offer assistance among themselves in fighting groups they designate as terrorists.

The coalition will focus not only on a military, security and intelligence track but also efforts to combat terrorist financing and ideology.

http://www.arabnews.com/node/1199396/saudi-arabia

will sunni-dominated countries follow the footstep of qatar: dare to say no to saudi's bullying tactics?

The conference was yesterday, the 26th.

l saw this from the 22nd:  http://www.presstv.com/Detail/2017/11/22/543078/Iran-Conference-Takfirism-Tehran-Velayati 

[Ashvazdanghe]

hi in some hadithes  its predicted that after current Saudi king the other kings only role for limited months or years but  non of them it will be longer that current kingship & all of them are temporary kings.

[Ashvazdanghe]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=10&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjr8qfn3ODXAhUlLMAKHXoaDQoQFghLMAk&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.shiachat.com%2Fforum%2Ftopic%2F64462-imam-sadiqsas-saying-about-king-abdullah%2F&usg=AOvVaw2gPHndOiPCpir8Z0URuXJY

[Ashvazdanghe]

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/64462-imam-sadiqsas-saying-about-king-abdullah/

[hoskot]

On 11/27/2017 at 11:10 PM, hasanhh said:

The conference was yesterday, the 26th.

l saw this from the 22nd:  http://www.presstv.com/Detail/2017/11/22/543078/Iran-Conference-Takfirism-Tehran-Velayati 

salam bro

i quote from the link: The Iranian capital has started hosting an international conference to discuss means of countering Takfirism.

did the conference propose any specific means  to counter takfirism? tq.

[hasanhh]

On 11/28/2017 at 8:45 AM, hoskot said:

salam bro

i quote from the link: The Iranian capital has started hosting an international conference to discuss means of countering Takfirism.

did the conference propose any specific means  to counter takfirism? tq.

l haven't found anything yet, but l see where these anti-terrorist/anti-extremist conferences have been host before. Such as in Nov 2014: see: Ethics of War and Peace in lran and Shi'i lsIam, M.Jafar Amir Mahallati, 2016.

So maybe KSA is trying to co-op lran's legal movement.?

[Muslim2010]

On 11/28/2017 at 8:45 AM, hoskot said:

salam bro

i quote from the link: The Iranian capital has started hosting an international conference to discuss means of countering Takfirism.

did the conference propose any specific means  to counter takfirism? tq.

I have no information about this conference yet but Iran, Russia and Turkey have a meeting in Sochi the Russian city  to develop a joint strategy against possible aggression by KSA and its allies. 

"LONDON (Reuters) - The trilateral meeting between Iran, Russia and Turkey in the Russian resort of Sochi this week was “a right step, at the right time” for stability in Syria, Iranian President Hassan Rouhani told Syrian counterpart Bashar al-Assad."

The following link provides its details:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-syria-iran/irans-rouhani-says-sochi-summit-right-step-at-right-time-for-syria-idUSKBN1DP0IJ?feedType=RSS&feedName=worldNews&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Reuters%2FworldNews+(Reuters+World+News)

"“It is very odd that a regional country considers Iranian nation as its enemy and the Zionist regime as its friend,” Rouhani told Assad in the call."

[hoskot]

@hasanhh @skyweb1987

in a nutshell, wahhabis believe in 3 categories of tawheed ie tawheed al-rububiyyah, tawheed a-uluhiyyah and tawheed al-asma wal sifaat.

https://islamqa.info/en/26338

they use this division of tawheed to declare other muslims as mushrikeen ie the shias/sunnis/sufis have only tawheed al-rububiyyah but not the other 2 categories of tawheed.

they claim the mushrikeen of mecca have tawheed of al-rububiyyah (and not the other 2 categories) but the Prophet (saww) was commanded to fight them.

what's left to do is to prove that this trinity of tawheed is one of the biggest innovation (bidaah) in Islam (if not the biggest), invented to make halal the blood and properties of other muslims.

since they claim that they hate innovations in religion, this is the most effective way to combat takfirism, imo.

i'm just a layman. do correct me if i'm wrong.

Allah knows best.

ps: i believe the time is not appropriate for any shia-vs-shia or sunni-vs-shia disputes.

 

Edited November 29, 2017 by hoskot

[Muslim2010]

On 11/28/2017 at 8:06 PM, hoskot said:

@hasanhh @skyweb1987

in a nutshell, wahhabis believe in 3 categories of tawheed ie tawheed al-rububiyyah, tawheed a-uluhiyyah and tawheed al-asma wal sifaat.

The information about concept of Tawheed in Shiiite can be seen at the given link:

http://theshiapedia.com/index.php?title=Tawheed

[hoskot]

14 hours ago, skyweb1987 said:

The information about concept of Tawheed in Shiiite can be seen at the given link:

http://theshiapedia.com/index.php?title=Tawheed

So, now they can simply retort back: "We have only 3 and you have 4.......blah...blah...blah"?
there's a difference though.
the 4 types is an attempt to describe Tauhid as befitting Allah.
the 3 categories has a hidden meaning to make takfir on other muslims.
Allah knows best.

[Muslim2010]

9 hours ago, hoskot said:

So, now they can simply retort back: "We have only 3 and you have 4.......blah...blah...blah"?
there's a difference though.
the 4 types is an attempt to describe Tauhid as befitting Allah.
the 3 categories has a hidden meaning to make takfir on other muslims.
Allah knows best.

The discussion is not on Tauheed but the plans of the memebrs of modern day saqeefa . I have mentioned earlier in this thread. The link is given below:

wasalam

[Muslim2010]

The KSA  presents its modern day saqeefa like views as given at the link below:

Saudi Arabia accuses Iran of supporting armed groups across the Middle East, including Lebanon's Hezbollah and Yemen's Houthi rebels.

https://www.dailysabah.com/mideast/2017/11/26/40-muslim-countries-officials-gather-in-islamic-counter-terrorism-summit

The response from iran president is mentioned below: looks more sensible one:

Rouhani: Saudi tensions with Iran 'to cover up defeats'

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/11/rouhani-saudi-tensions-iran-cover-defeats-171129063650975.html

@hoskot

[hoskot]

On 11/30/2017 at 9:44 PM, skyweb1987 said:

The discussion is not on Tauheed but the plans of the memebrs of modern day saqeefa . I have mentioned earlier in this thread. The link is given below:

wasalam

noted, bro.

[Muslim2010]

2 hours ago, hoskot said:

noted, bro.

Thanks for noting this

[Ali-india]

The biggest problem for Saudi is financial mess.. 

https://m.timesofindia.com/world/middle-east/sale-of-the-century-300-billion-saudi-state-sell-off-moves-slowly/articleshow/61902103.cms

[Ashvazdanghe]

they now they begin Slave trading in Libya by support of Bokoharam ,Al-Shaba ,etc

most of slaves come from Nigeria. 

NIGERIAN SLAVES HAVE ORGANS HARVESTED, BODIES MUTILATED AND ARE SET ON FIRE, HORRIFYING PICTURES REVEAL

http://www.newsweek.com/nigerian-slaves-have-organs-harvested-and-bodies-burned-728320

https://www.vanguardngr.com/2017/12/libya-modern-day-slave-trade-rose-moses/

https://www.premiumtimesng.com/news/top-news/251297-i-became-slave-libya-nigerian-victim.html

Nigeria's Boko Haram isn't just kidnapping girls: it's enslaving them

It's time for the world to face up to a painful truth: the slave trade has re-emerged across a swathe of Africa and Nigeria's leaders are indifferent to the women and children being sold for profit. David Blair reports

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-life/11342879/Nigerias-Boko-Haram-isnt-just-kidnapping-girls-its-enslaving-them.html

http://www.france24.com/en/mediawatch/20140505-boko-haram-nigeria-kidnapping-slavery-sex-trade

https://www.thedailybeast.com/when-the-way-out-of-boko-haram-is-an-ancient-slave-route