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Ameen

SAQIFA!

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In this thread I will talk about Saqifa, what exactly happened and how and why it happened. The purpose of this thread is to get to know and understand reality and facts about Saqifa but with an open and clear mind. By looking into things in depth and in great detail is how you get to know the truth. Feel free to contribute. 

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First of all there are a few questions we (Muslims) need to ask ourselves. And this is how I will begin;

1, Was Saqifa a public gathering/assembly? 

2, Was it a planned and organised event?

3, Who gathered in Saqifa and why?

4, Those who gathered/assembled in Saqifa were they minority or majority? 

5, What was the reason and purpose for their gathering? 

Lets just start of with these few questions and keep it simple and easy. 

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Salam, 

when the prophet saaw died.. Imam Ali a.s was busy tending to his body while the sahaba went straight to discuss who is next to rule... completley disregarding what the prophet said in Ghadir and his final testimony of when he said ."today i complete my religion for you, I leave you the quran and the ahul beyt" this hadith is found in all sunni books. and no sunni scholars can deny what the prophet said in Ghadir when he said " whosoever I have aurhority over then Ali has authority over." 

God gave instructions to the prophet to leave a successor. and has done so over the generations with our imams.

The sahaba held an illegal shura while Imam Ali a.s was still tending  to the Prophet' body and elected abu bakr..

This goes against the wishes of the Prophet as we dont have shura in islam. 

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2 minutes ago, kirtc said:

Salam, 

when the prophet saaw died.. Imam Ali a.s was busy tending to his body while the sahaba went straight to discuss who is next to rule... completley disregarding what the prophet said in Ghadir and his final testimony of when he said ."today i complete my religion for you, I leave you the quran and the ahul beyt" this hadith is found in all sunni books. and no sunni scholars can deny what the prophet said in Ghadir when he said " whosoever I have aurhority over then Ali has authority over." 

God gave instructions to the prophet to leave a successor. and has done so over the generations with our imams.

The sahaba held an illegal shura while Imam Ali a.s was still tending  to the Prophet' body and elected abu bakr..

This goes against the wishes of the Prophet as we dont have shura in islam. 

Thanks for your reply, most appreciated. 

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Sunnis say the Prophet saaw said in his last testimony " I leave you the Quran and sunnah" but I challenge any sunni to find any hadith from this in any sunni book. you will actually find "I leave you the quran and ahul beyt" in most sunnis books.

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Lets take a look at the first two questions; 

1, Was Saqifa a public gathering/assembly? 

2, Was it a planned and organised event?

The answer is definitely NO. It was not a public gathering/assembly. Nor was it a planned and organised event. Why? Lets bring in reality and facts.

The Prophet (s) had just recently passed away. The Ummah was in state of shock and mourning. People, important individuals and personalities, were busy in funeral processions and arrangements. 

Also lets bring in another very important fact. For a public gathering/assembly and or a planned and organised event you need announcement, advertisement and give notification. Nothing was announced or advertised.

Edited by Ameen

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13 minutes ago, kirtc said:

Sunnis say the Prophet saaw said in his last testimony " I leave you the Quran and sunnah" but I challenge any sunni to find any hadith from this in any sunni book. you will actually find "I leave you the quran and ahul beyt" in most sunnis books.

Absolutely, you are quite right.

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Another reference, apart from reality and facts, to my claim that it wasn't a public gathering/assembly or a planned and organised event.

'It is related by Umar that as they were seated in the Prophet’s house, a man cried out all of a sudden from outside: “O Son of Khattab (i.e. Umar), pray step out for a moment.” Umar told him to leave them alone and go away as they were busy in making arrangements for the burial of the Prophet. The man replied that an incident had occurred: the Ansar were gathering in force at Saqifah Bani Sa’idah, and–as the situation was grave–it was necessary that he (Umar) should go and look into the matter lest the Ansar should do something which would lead to a (civil) war. On this, Umar said to Abu Bakr: “Let us go.”

(Al Faruq, by Allamah Shibli Numani, Vol 1, p.87)'

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Here is another reference; 

Umar learned of this (i.e. the gathering of the Ansar at Saqifah) and went to the Prophet’s house and sent (a message) to Abu Bakr, who was in the building…[Umar] sent a message to Abu Bakr to come to him. Abu Bakr sent back (a message) that he was occupied (i.e. with caring for the Prophet’s body), but Umar sent him another message, saying: “Something (terrible) has happened that you must attend to personally.” So he (Abu Bakr) came out to him…

(The History of al-Tabari, Vol.10, p.3)

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what would you do if you hate to see prophethood and caliphate confine to one family only?
as for me, if the feeling is very strong, i won't sit still.

i would surely conspire with people having the same conviction. and the icing on the cake would be, to make it look like it is an unplanned event.

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4 hours ago, Ameen said:

First of all there are a few questions we (Muslims) need to ask ourselves. And this is how I will begin;

1, Was Saqifa a public gathering/assembly? 

2, Was it a planned and organised event?

3, Who gathered in Saqifa and why?

4, Those who gathered/assembled in Saqifa were they minority or majority? 

5, What was the reason and purpose for their gathering? 

Lets just start of with these few questions and keep it simple and easy. 

The answers to the questions in sequence are given below:

1.   The saqeefa was used to be a public gathering place in the days of ignorance.  It was located outside tghe Meinda. the obvious question comes in mind is why the companions went  there  and why they did not gather at Mosque ie Masjid e nanvi in Medina?

2.   After the demise of the prophet saaw  the companions got this news. Some tried to stop the circulation of this news. The companions rushed to saqeefa in haste without any planning but the family of the prophet saaw was busy in arrangeemnts funerals of the prophet saaw. 

3.    The Anasra first gathered at saqeefa, the other companions reached there.

Numani identifies the fact that Hadhrath Umar had personal receipt about a meeting the Ansar were involved in. This was not general information available to all the Sahaba, this was information given privately to Hadhrath Umar:

"It is related by Omar that as they were seated in the Prophet's house a man cried out all of a sudden from outside: 'O son of Khattab (Omar) please step out for a moment'. Omar told him to leave them alone and go away as they were busy in making arrangements for the burial of the Prophet. The man replied that an incident had occurred i.e., the Ansar were gathering in force in the Thaqifah Bani Sa'idah and, as the situation was grave, it was necessary that he (Omar) should go and look in to the matter lest the Ansar should do something which would lead to a war. On this Omar said to Abu Bakr, 'Let us go'. ( Al Faruq, by Allamah Shibli Numani, Vol 1 p 87)

4.   The meeting at Saqifa was a gathering of the Ansar, Hadhrath Abu Bakr, Hadhrath Umar and Abu Ubaydah were the only members of the Muhajireen who attended the meeting. What one should ask this group is 'why were only three prominent companions from the Muhajireen present at Saqifa? Were men such as Hadhrath Ali and the other members of Banu Hashim, Hadhrath Uthman, Talha, Zubair, Sa'd bin Abi Waqqas not prominent?

The modern day Sunni scholar El Awa manages to clarify this incorrect approach as follows:

"To consider the Muhajirin as party is incorrect because those of the Muhajirin who attended the Saqifa meeting were Abu Bakr, Umar b. Al Khattab, and Abu 'Ubaida b. al-Jarrah. The Muhajirin had not delegated them any authority nor did they represent any specific political group connected with them".
 On the political system of the Islamic State, by Muhammad S. El Awa page 32 (American Trust Publications, Indiana)

5.  These prominent men were debating over the Prophet (saaws) successor whilst his body was being laid to rest. Is this not truly amazing? Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى sent 124,000 Prophet's to guide mankind. Is there any evidence that when these Prophets' died; their companions failed to attend their funerals, and instead chose to participate in the selection of their immediate successors? If no such precedent exists then why did the Seal of Prophet (saaws)'s companions adopt this approach?

Edited by skyweb1987

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It is important that the readers also understand the sequences  that lead up to saqifa.

1) The calamity of pen and paper, Umar denying Rasulullah (pbuh@hf) to write a will for the Ummah.

2) Close companion of Rasulullah (pbuh@hf) not joining the battalion Usama.

3) Did Rasulullah (pbuh@hf) call Abu Bakr to lead the prays? 

4) Where was Abu Bakr when Rasulullah (pbuh@hf) had called him?

5) Umar denying that Rasulullah (pbuh@hf) died.

6) Umar in state shock then suddenly runs of to Saqifa.

7) Senior companions not attending the burial of the Prophet (pbuh&hf)

 

These are some of the events that lead up to Saqifa, and are recorded in Sunni Sahih books.

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One of the most important thing to consider would be that our Holy Prophet pbuh who did even not curse his worst enemies came out in a state when he was sick to chase everyone except a few out of Medina & cursed those who disobeyed him & did not leave Medina at once.

"Make haste in joining Usamah's legion. May Allah curse whoever fags behind Usamah's army."

 

We all know that Abu Bakr and Umar were both supposed to be in that army under an eighteen year old which means they disobeyed the direct orders of the Prophet pbuh and were part of those who were cursed by the Prophet. Just imagine what is going to happen to those who are cursed by the Holy Prophet pbuh. 

Now the point to consider is why would our Prophet pbuh take so much pain to make sure everyone he wanted was out of Medina in his final days?

Could it be that he envisaged something like Saqifa happening that he wanted to make it a clear ground for Imam Ali's elevation?

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So the first two questions;

1, Was Saqifa a public assembly/gathering and 2, Was it a planned and organised event,

the answer to both questions are NO.

Saqifa was an incident that happened. It was coincidental and it happened all of a sudden. Because reality and facts concerning and connected to it tell us.

The Prophet (s) had just passed away and the Ummah was in state of shock and loss, they were mourning. Important individuals and personalities were busy in the funeral processions/arrangements. 

There was no announcement or advertisement of a public gathering or event for the purpose and reason of choosing/selecting a leader for the Ummah. 

This is what reality and facts tell us.

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On 11/29/2017 at 1:05 AM, Ameen said:

So the first two questions;

1, Was Saqifa a public assembly/gathering and 2, Was it a planned and organised event,

the answer to both questions are NO.

Saqifa was an incident that happened. It was coincidental and it happened all of a sudden. Because reality and facts concerning and connected to it tell us.

The Prophet (s) had just passed away and the Ummah was in state of shock and loss, they were mourning. Important individuals and personalities were busy in the funeral processions/arrangements. 

There was no announcement or advertisement of a public gathering or event for the purpose and reason of choosing/selecting a leader for the Ummah. 

This is what reality and facts tell us.

salam bro

i found what is below on a forum. base on that, i would say yes to (1) and (2).

 

Second dialogue between Umar and Abdullah Ibn Abass (ra).

Umar:"How did you leave your cousin?"

Ibn `Abbas said he thought `Umar meant `Abdullah ibn Ja`far; so, he answered: "I left him in the company of his friends."

Umar said: "I did not mean him; I meant the greatest among you, Ahl al-Bayt(i.e. Imam Ali)."

Ibn `Abbas said: "I left him exiled, irrigating while reciting the Qur'an."

`Umar said: "O `Abdullah! I implore you not to be shy but tell me if he is still concerned about the issue of caliphate." Ibn Abass answered in the affirmative.

Then `Umer asked: " Does he claim that the Messenger of Allah (pbuh) has selected him for it?"

Ibn `Abbas answered: "Yes, indeed; moreover, I even asked my father if there was any statement made by the Messenger of Allah regarding selecting him for the caliphate, and my father informed me that that was the truth."

`Umar then said: "The Messenger of Allah held him in very high esteem through his speeches and actions in a way that left no argument nor excuse for anyone, and he kept testing the nation regarding him for some time; nay, even when he was sick [prior to his demise], he wished to nominate him for it, but it was I who stopped him."

Imam Abul-Fadl Ahmed ibn Abu Tahir in his book Tarikh Baghdad, indicating his reliable source to be Ibn `Abbas. It is also quoted by the Mu`tazilite scholar who discusses `Umer in his Sharh Nahjul Balaghah, page 97, Vol. 3.

 

Third Dialogue Between Umar and Abdullah Ibn Abass (ra)

`Umar said: "O Ibn `Abbas! I can see how wronged your friend [`Ali (as)] is."

Ibn `Abbas said: "O commander of the faithful, then affect justice on his behalf."

Ibn `Abbas said: "But `Umer pulled his hand from mine and went away whispering to himself for a good while. Then he stopped; so, I rejoined him,

and he (Umar) said to me: `O Ibn `Abbas! I do not think that his people denied him [the caliphate] for any reason other than his being too young for it.'

Ibn Abass said to him: `By Allah, neither Allah nor His Messenger regarded him as too young when they both ordered him to take Sürat Bara'a (Qur'an, Chapter 9) from him [from Abu Bakr].' Having heard this, he (Umar) turned away from me and started walking fast; so, I left him alone."

This dialogue is quoted by authors of books of biographies in their discussions of `Umar, and it is quoted here from Sharh Nahjul Balaghah by the Mu`tazilite scholar; so, refer to page 105 of its third volume.

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First:Salam Mu'tazilite doctrine is not accepted by most of Shia scholars they root is from Sunni islam that later inserted their beliefs to shia islam

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muʿtazila

The only caliph that appointed by vote of all people just was Imam Ali (as)

The other caliphs appointment was sabotage Abubakr appointed by Oligarchy Omar appointed by abubakr & appointing of uthman was a show off to not appoint ImamAli (as) as caliph

That Imam Ali (as) explained it on his sermons 3 to 14 on Nahjul balagha.

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons

The 12 Imams were introduced by prophet  (pbu) but recognizing them as caliphs was duty of people

They have Imamate authority  from Allah but the people must accepts them as caliphs  they don't insist on being caliphs because it is not their duty it is our duty.

http://en.wikishia.net/view/Hadith_of_Lawh

https://youtu.be/T7kgHA9eptg

 

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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On 23-11-2017 at 2:32 AM, AmirAlmuminin Lover said:

110 Sunni religious scholars mentioned Ghadir event in their book. I really don't understand why Sunni Muslims pretend to be blind on these facts.

Dude... mawla clearly means friend!!1!  /s

It's amazing how easy they use a different meaning of mawla. The Prophet (PBUH) stopped so many people just to say: 'Ali is the friends of the believers?

Quoting from a shia encyclopedia:

Quote

Moreover how can we justify the revelation of Verse 5:67 which was revealed before the speech of the Prophet in which Allah said:

"O Apostle! Deliver what has been sent down to you from your Lord; and if you don’t do it, you have not delivered His message (at all);

and

Allah will protect you from the people ...”(Qur’an 5:67).

Is it logical to say that Allah warned his Prophet that if he does not convey the message of "friendship of ‘Ali", he has spoiled all he has done?!

Also what danger can be imagined for Prophet if he states "‘Ali is the friend of believers"? Then what danger from the side of people is the above verse referring to?

Furthermore, how can the phrase "‘Ali is the friend of believers”complete the religion? Is the verse of completeness of religion (5:3) which was revealed after the speech of Prophet suggesting that without saying "‘Ali is the friend of believers”the religion is not complete?

Also, as we quoted in the first part, Umar and Abu Bakr congratulated ‘Ali by saying: "Congratulations O son of Abu Talib! Today you became the MAWLA of all believing men and women.”If, here, the word Mawla means friend then why the congratulations? Was ‘Ali the enemy of all believers before that time, so that Umar said that this day you became the friend of them?!

(https://www.al-islam.org/shiite-encyclopedia-ahlul-bayt-dilp-team/ghadir-khum-part-2#meaning-wali-mawla-and-wilayah)

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46 minutes ago, Khomeinist said:

Dude... mawla clearly means friend!!1!  /s

It's amazing how easy they use a different meaning of mawla. The Prophet (PBUH) stopped so many people just to say: 'Ali is the friends of the believers?

Quoting from a shia encyclopedia:

(https://www.al-islam.org/shiite-encyclopedia-ahlul-bayt-dilp-team/ghadir-khum-part-2#meaning-wali-mawla-and-wilayah)

That is true. Another fact which is written in Sunni books is following sentence:

Rasulullah asked people:" من أولی الناس بالمومنین من أنفسهم؟", then said:" من کنت مولاه، فهذا علی مولاه".

According to previous sentence it's obvious what Mawla means. I don't understand why don't Sunni Muslims read their books?

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48 minutes ago, AmirAlmuminin Lover said:

That is true. Another fact which is written in Sunni books is following sentence:

Rasulullah asked people:" من أولی الناس بالمومنین من أنفسهم؟", then said:" من کنت مولاه، فهذا علی مولاه".

According to previous sentence it's obvious what Mawla means. I don't understand why don't Sunni Muslims read their books?

Agree. It would be really weird to state such a last sentence to a "friend" of the believers. Such a sentence is definitely related to someone with a function of a leader.

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On 11/21/2017 at 1:46 PM, Ameen said:

In this thread I will talk about Saqifa, what exactly happened and how and why it happened. The purpose of this thread is to get to know and understand reality and facts about Saqifa but with an open and clear mind. By looking into things in depth and in great detail is how you get to know the truth. Feel free to contribute. 

one question before starting. how will you know what exactly happened? 

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9 hours ago, just a muslim said:

one question before starting. how will you know what exactly happened? 

History tells us that happened.

However whatever happened the outcome is not considered inline with the defined principles as per verses of Quran. Since no people chosen caliph exists in quran it is the right of Allah swt to choose the caliph for the guidance of the uummah.

 

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1 hour ago, skyweb1987 said:

History tells us that happened.

However whatever happened the outcome is not considered inline with the defined principles as per verses of Quran. Since no people chosen caliph exists in quran it is the right of Allah swt to choose the caliph for the guidance of the uummah.

I like to see the verse of Quran that people can choose the caliph for their guidance instead of Allah swt with mentioning the name of people chosen caliph from quran  for sunni man made caliphate as a proof, if it exists in Quran 

@Wisdom007

Edited by skyweb1987

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11 hours ago, just a muslim said:

one question before starting. how will you know what exactly happened? 

Volume 5, Book 57, Number 19 :

Narrated by 'Aisha (the wife of the Prophet)
 

Allah's Apostle died while Abu Bakr was at a place called As-Sunah (Al-'Aliya) 'Umar stood up and said, "By Allah! Allah's Apostle is not dead!" 'Umar (later on) said, "By Allah! Nothing occurred to my mind except that." He said, "Verily! Allah will resurrect him and he will cut the hands and legs of some men." Then Abu Bakr came and uncovered the face of Allah's Apostle, kissed him and said, "Let my mother and father be sacrificed for you, (O Allah's Apostle), you are good in life and in death. By Allah in Whose Hands my life is, Allah will never make you taste death twice." Then he went out and said, "O oath-taker! Don't be hasty." When Abu Bakr spoke, 'Umar sat down. Abu Bakr praised and glorified Allah and said, No doubt! Whoever worshipped Muhammad, then Muhammad is dead, but whoever worshipped Allah, then Allah is Alive and shall never die." Then he recited Allah's Statement.: "(O Muhammad) Verily you will die, and they also will die." (39.30) He also recited: "Muhammad is no more than an Apostle; and indeed many Apostles have passed away, before him, If he dies Or is killed, will you then Turn back on your heels? And he who turns back On his heels, not the least Harm will he do to Allah And Allah will give reward to those Who are grateful." (3.144) The people wept loudly, and the Ansar were assembled with Sad bin 'Ubada in the shed of Bani Saida. They said (to the emigrants). "There should be one 'Amir from us and one from you." Then Abu Bakr, Umar bin Al-khattab and Abu 'baida bin Al-Jarrah went to them. 'Umar wanted to speak but Abu Bakr stopped him. 'Umar later on used to say, "By Allah, I intended only to say something that appealed to me and I was afraid that Abu Bakr would not speak so well. Then Abu Bakr spoke and his speech was very eloquent. He said in his statement, "We are the rulers and you (Ansars) are the ministers (i.e. advisers)," Hubab bin Al-Mundhir said, "No, by Allah we won't accept this. But there must be a ruler from us and a ruler from you." Abu Bakr said, "No, we will be the rulers and you will be the ministers, for they (i.e. Quarish) are the best family amongst the 'Arabs and of best origin. So you should elect either 'Umar or Abu 'Ubaida bin Al-Jarrah as your ruler." 'Umar said (to Abu Bakr), "No but we elect you, for you are our chief and the best amongst us and the most beloved of all of us to Allah's Apostle." So 'Umar took Abu Bakr's hand and gave the pledge of allegiance and the people too gave the pledge of allegiance to Abu Bakr. Someone said, "You have killed Sad bin Ubada." 'Umar said, "Allah has killed him." 'Aisha said (in another narration), ("When the Prophet was on his death-bed) he looked up and said thrice, (Amongst) the Highest Companion (See Qur'an 4.69)' Aisha said, Allah benefited the people by their two speeches. 'Umar frightened the people some of whom were hypocrites whom Allah caused to abandon Islam because of 'Umar's speech. Then Abu Bakr led the people to True Guidance and acquainted them with the right path they were to follow so that they went out reciting: "Muhammad is no more than an Apostle and indeed many Apostles have passed away before him..." (3.144)

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10 hours ago, kirtc said:

there were witnesses who wrote down what happened 

and do we accept the written down accounts of every witness?

9 hours ago, power said:

Volume 5, Book 57, Number 19 :

Narrated by 'Aisha (the wife of the Prophet)
 

Allah's Apostle died while Abu Bakr was at a place called As-Sunah (Al-'Aliya) 'Umar stood up and said, "By Allah! Allah's Apostle is not dead!" 'Umar (later on) said, "By Allah! Nothing occurred to my mind except that." He said, "Verily! Allah will resurrect him and he will cut the hands and legs of some men." Then Abu Bakr came and uncovered the face of Allah's Apostle, kissed him and said, "Let my mother and father be sacrificed for you, (O Allah's Apostle), you are good in life and in death. By Allah in Whose Hands my life is, Allah will never make you taste death twice." Then he went out and said, "O oath-taker! Don't be hasty." When Abu Bakr spoke, 'Umar sat down. Abu Bakr praised and glorified Allah and said, No doubt! Whoever worshipped Muhammad, then Muhammad is dead, but whoever worshipped Allah, then Allah is Alive and shall never die." Then he recited Allah's Statement.: "(O Muhammad) Verily you will die, and they also will die." (39.30) He also recited: "Muhammad is no more than an Apostle; and indeed many Apostles have passed away, before him, If he dies Or is killed, will you then Turn back on your heels? And he who turns back On his heels, not the least Harm will he do to Allah And Allah will give reward to those Who are grateful." (3.144) The people wept loudly, and the Ansar were assembled with Sad bin 'Ubada in the shed of Bani Saida. They said (to the emigrants). "There should be one 'Amir from us and one from you." Then Abu Bakr, Umar bin Al-khattab and Abu 'baida bin Al-Jarrah went to them. 'Umar wanted to speak but Abu Bakr stopped him. 'Umar later on used to say, "By Allah, I intended only to say something that appealed to me and I was afraid that Abu Bakr would not speak so well. Then Abu Bakr spoke and his speech was very eloquent. He said in his statement, "We are the rulers and you (Ansars) are the ministers (i.e. advisers)," Hubab bin Al-Mundhir said, "No, by Allah we won't accept this. But there must be a ruler from us and a ruler from you." Abu Bakr said, "No, we will be the rulers and you will be the ministers, for they (i.e. Quarish) are the best family amongst the 'Arabs and of best origin. So you should elect either 'Umar or Abu 'Ubaida bin Al-Jarrah as your ruler." 'Umar said (to Abu Bakr), "No but we elect you, for you are our chief and the best amongst us and the most beloved of all of us to Allah's Apostle." So 'Umar took Abu Bakr's hand and gave the pledge of allegiance and the people too gave the pledge of allegiance to Abu Bakr. Someone said, "You have killed Sad bin Ubada." 'Umar said, "Allah has killed him." 'Aisha said (in another narration), ("When the Prophet was on his death-bed) he looked up and said thrice, (Amongst) the Highest Companion (See Qur'an 4.69)' Aisha said, Allah benefited the people by their two speeches. 'Umar frightened the people some of whom were hypocrites whom Allah caused to abandon Islam because of 'Umar's speech. Then Abu Bakr led the people to True Guidance and acquainted them with the right path they were to follow so that they went out reciting: "Muhammad is no more than an Apostle and indeed many Apostles have passed away before him..." (3.144)

i meant to ask the question from a non sunni and non shia perspective. so, i am not exactly looking for sunni hadith. 

also, do you agree with the narration you quoted above? as in this is what happened? not whether this was right or wrong. but if it happened as the narration says. do you agree?

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Salam it may be happend if it happend shows that they reject Qadir Event & make a triangle of power for themselves how anyone or group can claim they has higher position than other group  it is against the holy Quran that says nobody has higher position than anyone except in piety if it was for piety Imam Ali (as) was most pious person than anyone even if we accept logic of them Imam Ali (as) had higher position amongst them.

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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5 hours ago, just a muslim said:

and do we accept the written down accounts of every witness?

of course  not,  you have witnesses that are not trustworthy. The ones that do things for money... and not from the fear of God... 

and by the way you also have Nahjul Balagha.. Imam Ali a.s himself wrote the book. would Imam Ali lie?

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8 minutes ago, kirtc said:

of course  not,  you have witnesses that are not trustworthy. The ones that do things for money... and not from the fear of God... 

and by the way you also have Nahjul Balagha.. Imam Ali a.s himself wrote the book. would Imam Ali lie?

how do we know/judge which witnesses are trustworthy and which aren't? 

how do you know imam Ali wrote nahjul balagha?

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Imam Ali (as) performs sermons its collected by Shias & became a book by sayed Razi(ra)

during that time Aisha was always Imam Ali (as) & wants leadership for her father & relatives so we dont trust her.

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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17 hours ago, skyweb1987 said:

I like to see the verse of Quran that people can choose the caliph for their guidance instead of Allah swt with mentioning the name of people chosen caliph from quran  for sunni man made caliphate as a proof, if it exists in Quran 

@Wisdom007

So sunni friends have no answer except bringing  the baseless conjectures :grin:

Edited by skyweb1987

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1 hour ago, just a muslim said:

how do we know/judge which witnesses are trustworthy and which aren't? 

how do you know imam Ali wrote nahjul balagha?

read one paragraph of it... if you read one paragraph from Nahjul Balagha and have any sort of wisdom you can tell that no ordinary person can write this.. 

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-1-praise-due-Allah-whose-worth-cannot-be-described#creation-universe

after reading at least the first chapter I want you to come and tell me that someone else wrote it.

some people are God fearing and some people will do anything  for money like abu hurraira... you can judge who is working for Allah and who is working for some gold easily if you have a sense of guidance.. it hasnt changed.. even today you can tell.

Edited by kirtc

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1 hour ago, kirtc said:

read one paragraph of it... if you read one paragraph from Nahjul Balagha and have any sort of wisdom you can tell that no ordinary person can write this.. 

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-1-praise-due-Allah-whose-worth-cannot-be-described#creation-universe

after reading at least the first chapter I want you to come and tell me that someone else wrote it.

some people are God fearing and some people will do anything  for money like abu hurraira... you can judge who is working for Allah and who is working for some gold easily if you have a sense of guidance.. it hasnt changed.. even today you can tell.

brother i am asking you very fundamental questions. which is basically that how do we know something from history? and you are saying the answer is either subjective or is based on logical fallacies, when you say that abu huraira would do anything for money, i would ask you how do you know that? and the answer would be through witness accounts and your reasoning of them. i am asking you how you know those witness accounts, and all the others, can be trusted? on what basis? and it has to be an objective basis. not subjective. saying that " if you read one paragraph from Nahjul Balagha and have any sort of wisdom you can tell that no ordinary person can write this.. " is a subjective basis and also includes logical fallacies.

and i am not asking this from a sunni perspective. i ask the same question to my sunni brothers as well.

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35 minutes ago, just a muslim said:

i am asking you very fundamental questions. which is basically that how do we know something from history?

Surah Ya Seen, Verse 12:
إِنَّا نَحْنُ نُحْيِي الْمَوْتَىٰ وَنَكْتُبُ مَا قَدَّمُوا وَآثَارَهُمْ وَكُلَّ شَيْءٍ أَحْصَيْنَاهُ فِي إِمَامٍ مُّبِينٍ

Surely We give life to the dead, and We write down what they have sent before and their footprints, and We have recorded everything in a clear writing.
(English - Shakir)

"Ma Qaddamu" as well as "Wa Aatharahum". This is the way we know something from history.

Edited by Salsabeel

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