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In the Name of God بسم الله

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بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

As we stated earlier, before we can answer the question “how can I know that God exists?” we must first ask the question “how do I know anything at all.” There are multiple ways that the intellect comes to know, and these modalities (or ways) of knowing are arranged hierarchically. I will go from the lowest form of knowledge to the highest – though this may seem unintuitive to the modern mind, which has been conditioned to see certainty as ordered in precisely the opposite direction. I will sort out these modern confusions as we proceed upon each level, inshaAllah.

The lowest form of knowing, and the least certain is that of sense perception. “Huh? But I thought you had to see it to believe it?” you may ask.

Ah, but you see sense perception deceives us all the time. We readily admit that. Sometimes we see things that aren’t really there, and sometimes what we see does not reflect reality. For instance, we perceive the earth as being flat, the sun as setting upon the horizon, the stars as being small, and if I were to put my finger in a glass of water it would appear to break due to the refraction of light.

refraction.jpg

Your eyes deceive you

Take a look at this clip around 12:30 where Dawkins himself says that if he were to see a direct sign of God – the heavens opening up and seeing the angels – he would still disbelieve in God. Instead, he would find it more probable that he were hallucinating, that David Blaine or some magician were playing a trick on him, or that aliens with some advanced technology could manipulate reality to make him think he were seeing what he were seeing.

You can hear his own words here....

This article was originally published on themuslimtheist.com. Click here to continue reading.

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Its one opinion.

For me the symmetry of universe is not explained as accidental. Some verses in Quran and the symmetry are enough proof that there is omnipotent. 

Lemme give you and example, there is no mathematical proof of gravitational force's existence but almost every thing in modern science is based on it and explains a lot of stuff so it is accepted as it is. Theory of relativity is accepted as is because it explained a lot on space phenomenons and some ideas like string theory are highly regarded for the same reason that it explains a lot of what happening out there. While on the same time these theories have not been proved till now but still accepted by majority. 

Why can't we say same for existence of God? We can't prove His existence  but a lot of thing explains perfectly if we admit there is presence of an Omnipotent. 

Or may be just contradicting orthodox ideas just for the sake of it is the new "kewl".

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34 minutes ago, Messam RAza said:

Its one opinion.

For me the symmetry of universe is not explained as accidental. Some verses in Quran and the symmetry are enough proof that there is omnipotent. 

3

If sense perception is combined with either reasoning or intellectual intuition (which you can think of as the fitrah for now) then yes it can lead to such realizations. But sense perception alone - devoid of these higher faculties, is the definition of dunyawi. It is the level at which the mushrikeen see reality, so obviously it is not sufficient to bring belief. Belief requires sense perception along with thought and/or the awakening of the higher intellect.

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5 hours ago, Ayuoobi said:

Ah, but you see sense perception deceives us all the time.

One wonders why people look right and left before crossing the road?

You are of course partly right and simply put:

Observation alone is inconclusive because it will just witness an apple falling to the ground but not “reason” the force of gravity causing the fall.

Reason alone is not sufficient because people have often “reasoned” the incorrect conclusion. (Flat earth and at the centre of the universe) 

But as far as I know, Science is not mere Observation, it operates by using evidence and reason.


So, I do not understand what your problem is, what is your conclusion? ... or must one read your link ? (not everyone has time to read blogs)    

wslm

*

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So now we will have to define sense and perception.

Sense is ability to think and perception is ability to understand. And when you understand and think obviously you will deduce somethings.

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33 minutes ago, Quisant said:

Science is not mere Observation, it operates by using evidence and reason.

Out of curiosity - what would you personally require to know that God exits? I mean, do you wanna see a big white fluff of cotton to know God exists or something like that?

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1 hour ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

Out of curiosity - what would you personally require to know that God exits? I mean, do you wanna see a big white fluff of cotton to know God exists or something like that?

 

A bush that burns and is not consumed.
Reliable and detailed predictions about next year lottery results.
A heavier-than-air object which remains suspended indefinitely above the ground.
An amputee's arm regrowing.
The Milky Way occasionally changing shape to spell the name of God in the sky.
Etc..etc..

Out of curiosity,

What would it take for you to disbelieve in God? 

*
 

 

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22 minutes ago, Quisant said:

A bush that burns and is not consumed.

If you mean about Moses speaking to God (which I probably think this was the story, though never knew the bush was not consumed), then it was a miracle.

A miracle is : An extraordinary and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore attributed to a divine agency.

22 minutes ago, Quisant said:

Reliable and detailed predictions about next year lottery results.

That is what we call "Tawaqqu' al-mustaqbal" predicting the future, and it is haram/Forbidden to do, and the nice thing is they mostly don't work, unless it was a "wild" guess, as some call it.

Though the Prophet (sawa) once predicted future events more than 1 time, and all of them came true, you interested?

22 minutes ago, Quisant said:

A heavier-than-air object which remains suspended indefinitely above the ground.

Again, if the "angels"(which I think you mean) were to appear they wouldn't appear from their own will, God wants them to appear. Again, God is: the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being.

So God can basically break the laws, which he himself created, when he wants, as they don't apply to him.

 

Though angels in Islam aren't the winged angels, they are some sort of "Spirits" of  unknown nature. The word "Mala'ika" means the "heavenly" ones, or the ones who always obey. So again not the winges creatures like the Christian/Jewish thoughts.

Though they could possibly lift themselves through the means/ways of aerodynamics. Only God knows.

22 minutes ago, Quisant said:

An amputee's arm regrowing.

 

This one happened, I think it was by Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib (a), he basically puts the amputated part, on the other, and joins them together. 

22 minutes ago, Quisant said:

The Milky Way occasionally changing shape to spell the name of God in the sky.

I have seen the name "Allah" once through a cloud, not sure if it is going to help though.

22 minutes ago, Quisant said:

What would it take for you to disbelieve in God? 

Well, it is pretty hard to do so. 

Edited by M.IB

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28 minutes ago, M.IB said:

If you mean about Moses speaking to God (which I probably think this was the story, though never knew the bush was not consumed), then it was a miracle. Etc..etc..

Thanks for your response, ali_fatheroforphans asked me what would I personally want to see to believe, what other people say or heard is not really 'personally'...I hope you see the difference. 

Perhaps the moon is made of Cheese. Perhaps unicorns burp rainbows. Perhaps most people actually have something useful to say. But until they demonstrate any of these things, I feel justified in rejecting them.

It doesn't matter what anyone believes. What matters is what they can demonstrate.

wslm

*

 

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53 minutes ago, Quisant said:

It doesn't matter what anyone believes. What matters is what they can demonstrate.

First of all, this entitlement mentality is not going to help you. I am entitled to an explanation. Second, No one owes you and explanation. Its your life, you figure it out. You and I have the same capabilities, by saying prove it to me, You are inherently acknowledging your inferiority/limits. That alone is sufficient for you to stop and reflect. We can point you to stuff, but its you who will make the final decision.  You have limits, you did not create yourself or whats around you, so something/someone did. Since you are a creation, as everything around you and you yourself(physical systems are guided), you must receive guidance. Find that guidance...

ذَٰلِكَ الْكِتَابُ لَا رَيْبَ ۛ فِيهِ ۛ هُدًى لِلْمُتَّقِينَ {2}

[Shakir 2:2] This Book, there is no doubt in it, is a guide to those who guard (against evil).
[Pickthal 2:2] This is the Scripture whereof there is no doubt, a guidance unto those who ward off (evil).
[Yusufali 2:2] This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah;

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25 minutes ago, S.M.H.A. said:

First of all, this entitlement mentality is not going to help you. I am entitled to an explanation. Second, No one owes you and explanation. Its your life, you figure it out.

As you say it is my life, I am sorting it out. I don't have an entitlement mentality, you are making things up to knock them down so that you appear to be clever...your usual 'straw-man argument. I was responding to someone else, not you.

If you tell me that this morning you have drank a cup of coffee, I have no problem believing you; but if you were to tell me that you have drank a cup of Ambrosia brought to you by Angels  I would want evidence before I believed you.

*
 

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1 hour ago, Quisant said:

As you say it is my life, I am sorting it out. I don't have an entitlement mentality, you are making things up to knock them down so that you appear to be clever...your usual 'straw-man argument. I was responding to someone else, not you.

If you tell me that this morning you have drank a cup of coffee, I have no problem believing you; but if you were to tell me that you have drank a cup of Ambrosia brought to you by Angels  I would want evidence before I believed you.

*
 

Ok, Fine,'

"You" and "I" used in general sense, between two people. I will use myself as a example. If I were to ask someone, i acknowledge that in do not know, i have limits and i am inferior to that person" Don;t read it literal. Point is the fact that I asked a person who as the same capabilities as me. - Indicates in this context here, in this thread is that I am no the  god.I have limits. that person is also limited, we both have limits. We cant be unlimited. if we have limits, there is one without limits.  ( we ask a lot of thing to other people to explain or learn form in life) but in this context that you claim to be not a believer in god. Your acknowledgement is its self a proof on you. 

I could  say you are been clever here 

Quote

What would it take for you to disbelieve in God? 

what does this mean, anyway. 

if i were to point out something else in you last comment, you will say i am been clever. I want to show you what you are really saying. Not trying to show superiority or been clever, just an observation that needs to be pointed to you

Quote

I am sorting it out.

You do acknowledge your limits, this is what you are arguing against. You are asking us to proof, something to you, that you already acknowledge. If you were god, you would not  need to sort it out. Your acknowledging your limits, your search is indicative of something. What that is for you to find out, but one thing is  for sure it is above and beyond you

Start are new thread, stick to it, ask all the question, and learn and teach - find someone who has knowledge here. ( Not me, i am a layman) instead of popping up here and there with the riddles and questions. we are not experts, so you may not get the correct answers. we are laypeople. Find someone who knows and do not  leave that thread till you have asked all the question.  

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