Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله
Langar

I don't believe in Free Will

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

3 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

Bro, Allah AWJ has promised 10 good deeds in this world and 70 goodness for hereafter. As for sins, they are harmful for us in this world such as if we lie, we will be famous as liar in this world and in hereafter we may get punishment due to preferring our wish above God but if God wishes as it is said in few hadith that momin will be punished in this world and not hereafter. 

That is the prise of good actions. 

It will never happen that for good action He will punish. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Langar said:

عبدي أنت تريد وأنا أريد

و لا يكون إلا ما أريد

فإن سلمت لي فيما أريد كفيتك ما تريد

و إن لم تسلم لي فيما أريد أتعبتك فيما تريد

ولا يكون إلا ما أريد

 

You can find it In kitaab al-Tawheed by Sheik Saduq (ra):

Imam Ali (as) said: "Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى, revealed to David (as): O David, you will and I will. However, your will is not except what I will. Therefore, if you submit to My Will, I will bestow you with what you will. However, if you do not submit to My Will, I will trouble you in what you wish. In the end, it is always My Will that prevail."

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would recommend anyone who is interested in the topic of predestination and free will to consider reading the following book written by Ayatollah Murtadha Mutahhari: "Man and His Destiny". (https://www.al-islam.org/man-and-his-destiny-ayatullah-murtadha-mutahhari)

"This title deals with the Islamic point of view on fate and destiny. Martyr Ayatullah Mutahhari critically examines historical doctrines on predestination and free will put forth by various schools of thought in Islam including the Mu'tazali and Ash`ari. Based on the verses of the Qur'an and Islamic teachings of the Ahlul Bayt (a), Martyr Mutahhari determines the true and correct position of human free will and predestination from the Islamic point of view."

 

You can also get a physicial copy from amazon if you prefer that.

Edited by Khomeinist
typo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, islam25 said:

Salam brother. 

 

2 hours ago, Sindbad05 said:

Bismillah e Rehman e Raheem

Bro, everyone has limitations. 

Bro is a khanom actually.

 

We've been programmed a certain way, we will never choose anything other than what we were going to choose, and our choices are all determined by past actions and external influences. You are never truly "free".

The issue I have is mostly a technical one. I understand the points that have been raised, but my point is we throw around the term "Free Will" without understanding the meaning behind Free and Will.

We need to rename this phenomenon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Langar said:

 

Bro is a khanom actually.

 

We've been programmed a certain way, we will never choose anything other than what we were going to choose, and our choices are all determined by past actions and external influences. You are never truly "free".

The issue I have is mostly a technical one. I understand the points that have been raised, but my point is we throw around the term "Free Will" without understanding the meaning behind Free and Will.

We need to rename this phenomenon.

Khanom, you are confusing capability with free will. We have free will within our capabilities such as we humans cannot become bird but we can choose in the domain of humanity what to choose whether we should choose right or wrong. The restriction of being human, actually defines that someone is stopping us from being bird right and who is that ? It is God. Your choice to choose actions is degree of freedom within human domain and for it you should be thankful to God. However, if you want to choose at your will, you have to choose between two ways namely: Either you be stronger than God and if that's not possible do what God says you to do and with His will you will be able to do what you want to do but remember what you want to do should not be what God dislikes.

You are right that you cannot escape God, that is what God has said in the Quran: "Try as hard as you can but you cannot escape from me". 

 

Edited by Sindbad05

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Sindbad05 said:

Khanom, you are confusing capability with free will. We have free will within our capabilities such as we humans cannot become bird but we can choose in the domain of humanity what to choose whether we should choose right or wrong. The restriction of being human, actually defines that someone is stopping us from being bird right and who is that ? It is God. Your choice to choose actions is degree of freedom for in your domain and for it you should be thankful to God. However, if you want to choose at your will, you have to choose between two ways namely: Either you be stronger than God and if that's not possible do what God says you to do and with His will you will be able to do what you want to do but remember what you want to do should not be what God dislikes.

You are right that you cannot escape God, that is what God has said in the Quran: "Try as hard as you can but you cannot escape from me". 

 

We have no choice but to choose, but what we choose we don't have a choice in.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Langar said:

We have no choice but to choose, but what we choose we don't have a choice in.

We have choice to do and we have choice not to do what we choose to do before we do it.....However, after we choose it and choose to execute it, it means we have chosen it's consequence as well and then there is no escape. 

I agree with you that there is no choice in the consequence

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Langar said:

 

Bro is a khanom actually.

 

We've been programmed a certain way, we will never choose anything other than what we were going to choose, and our choices are all determined by past actions and external influences. You are never truly "free".

The issue I have is mostly a technical one. I understand the points that have been raised, but my point is we throw around the term "Free Will" without understanding the meaning behind Free and Will.

We need to rename this phenomenon.

Brother that is what called free will. Your all all actions depends on knowledge and past experiences. you won't choose wrong options if your past experience had giving negative results by opting a given options. I mean your free to choose correct option not forced opt mistakes of. This correcting of options from mistake of past  and knowledge  is because of your free will. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Langar said:

Recently, this discussion has been reopened for me and I'm not quite convinced that we have "Free will".

I agree with that, I don't believe we have free will.

In a Non Religious scenario( An Omniscient creator God does not exist) the term 'Free will' is nonsensical for the following  reasons:

We do not choose our feelings, desires, tastes, genes, environments, parents, family and relatives, tribe/clan, native language, upbringing, and son and so forth;  everything has already been decided for us.

We each have about as much knowledge of what we are about to think next as we do of what someone else would think. We are not the author of our own thoughts. That is, we don't pick our next thought. 

Can you decide to stop yourself thinking, can you choose which thoughts to summon for analysis or decide what to think?
Schopenhauer famously wrote:
Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills. 
He makes a distinction between freedom of acting (which he endorses) and freedom of willing (which he refutes). 

Our 'willing' is slave to desires over which we have little control; we cannot will what we will. Yes you are free to do whatever you desire. But you are not free to choose your desires.

In essence, man's desires are not predicated on careful calculation; rather, they are innate. The "heart of man" is autonomous and fickle. Our urges are genetically encoded, rooted in the subconscious and not subject to the whims (desires) of the conscious mind. 

 

In a Religious scenario ( A creator God does exist) Free will is impossible for the following reasons:

The corner stone of Religious theology is the 'Principle of Sufficient Reason' : everything that exists exists for a reason and that reason is God.

Everything in existence is tied to God through a network of causes (an unbroken chain of cause-and-effect), so we can only do what he designed us to do, essentially making us nothing more than conscious puppets.

If everything that exists has a ‘reason’ for its existence and the source of that reason is ‘random chance’ then we do have some free will.
But if the source of that ‘reason’ is God then we have no free will. 

God knows our present and our future, it is therefore impossible to do other than what God knows we will do.

If it were possible  it would negate the " omniscience / infallibility" of God.

wslm.

*

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...