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ZephyrintheEast

What if God was fictitious?

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Salam and hello everyone,

I apologize from the get go if this sounds like a Tumblr post but I genuinely want to hear from other Shiachat lurkers regarding the titular question.
 
Over the past few years I've had the opportunity to meet people from a multitude of backgrounds and diverse schools of thought and I was shocked by how fragile the structural integrity of my beliefs was. Everything that I've ever known was challenged, and I started to question the very nature of my existence.
Now of course one could blame it on my upbringing, maybe I didn't attend enough lectures or didn't pray hard enough. It's possible, but I urge you to approach this topic pragmatically and with an open mind. 
 
Have you ever considered that there is no God and we're really the consequence of...coincidence? A magnificent one on a celestial scale, but a coincidence nonetheless? There way as well may be infinite multiverse a out there, is it really that special to have life spring up on the tiniest of planets in the tiniest of solar systems in some so and so galaxy? And if we're to put aside the sheer awesomeness of the world for a minute, what really is there to compel a belief in a God? 
 
Many of us claim that God has a destiny for us, and there's a grand plan. Things have a way of working out in the end, don't they? But what if that's all just the human mind trying to rationalize the unexplainable, or attempting to live with the fact that ultimately nothing is under its control? Haven't there been countless events in history where powerful folk used religion for political agendas such as conquer and control? Hell, some religions were born from purely those motives. 
 
Gods all around the world have similar attributes and godly stories similar themes, and I feel like the differences in belief systems only reflect the differences in circumstances, geography, history etc. The Sumerians in ancient Mesopotamia believed  in Gilgamesh's Epic (origins of Noah's Ark story, some say) because their livelihood depends so deeply on the rise and recede of the Tigris and Euphrates. The Roman Empire eventually adopted Christianity because it was better suited for its imperialistic needs. The point is, each society in history had molded the concepts of a higher deity(ies) as was needed by the people of its time. 
 
Too many times I've seen Muslims poking fun at say, Hindus, for having one too many gods, but I'm a little tired of my brethren walking around like it's their birthright to walk straight into Heaven. Why should you be any more proud to be a Muslim than if you're proud to be tall or have ten fingers? 
 
The only reason I haven't completely abandoned the idea of a God is because I don't understand death. It certainly makes it easier to fathom my inevitable doom by thinking that we have a purpose. I want to, nay, I need to believe in a grand scheme if I'm to live my life not in a state of a constant existential crisis.
 
Who's to say anyone of us is right? 

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@ZephyrintheEast

First of all, let me clear for you how does coincidence works.....Coincidence occurs when there be two or more than two things in a system whose existence or accumulation in a particular place or in a particular situation may provide an effect which be regarded by an intellect as has caused change.....if there be one thing than coincidence does not works for example:- You and I are in this world and therefore it may happen that I and you meet one day by coincidence.....However, if you or I were not born, we could not have met right so coincidence would not have worked. Secondly, for coincidence to occur between two or more than two things which may be called as coincidence those both things should be separate and not one. Such as you and me are separate creations and therefore you and me met on this question by coincidence if you had been me or me have been you, we could not have coincidence to meet each other on this website and talk to each other. 

Result:

1. There should be two or more than two things for coincidence to occur.

2. Both should be separate.

Now, tell me who has maintained your independent personality and separated us both and held our bodies such that our shaking hands will not intermingle our hands to be indistinguishable from each of us ? That is God who is the creator of coincidence bro. I hope you realized his presence now. 

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2 hours ago, ZephyrintheEast said:

Salam and hello everyone,

I apologize from the get go if this sounds like a Tumblr post but I genuinely want to hear from other Shiachat lurkers regarding the titular question.
 
Over the past few years I've had the opportunity to meet people from a multitude of backgrounds and diverse schools of thought and I was shocked by how fragile the structural integrity of my beliefs was. Everything that I've ever known was challenged, and I started to question the very nature of my existence.
Now of course one could blame it on my upbringing, maybe I didn't attend enough lectures or didn't pray hard enough. It's possible, but I urge you to approach this topic pragmatically and with an open mind. 
 
Have you ever considered that there is no God and we're really the consequence of...coincidence? A magnificent one on a celestial scale, but a coincidence nonetheless? There way as well may be infinite multiverse a out there, is it really that special to have life spring up on the tiniest of planets in the tiniest of solar systems in some so and so galaxy? And if we're to put aside the sheer awesomeness of the world for a minute, what really is there to compel a belief in a God? 
 
Many of us claim that God has a destiny for us, and there's a grand plan. Things have a way of working out in the end, don't they? But what if that's all just the human mind trying to rationalize the unexplainable, or attempting to live with the fact that ultimately nothing is under its control? Haven't there been countless events in history where powerful folk used religion for political agendas such as conquer and control? Hell, some religions were born from purely those motives. 
 
Gods all around the world have similar attributes and godly stories similar themes, and I feel like the differences in belief systems only reflect the differences in circumstances, geography, history etc. The Sumerians in ancient Mesopotamia believed  in Gilgamesh's Epic (origins of Noah's Ark story, some say) because their livelihood depends so deeply on the rise and recede of the Tigris and Euphrates. The Roman Empire eventually adopted Christianity because it was better suited for its imperialistic needs. The point is, each society in history had molded the concepts of a higher deity(ies) as was needed by the people of its time. 
 
Too many times I've seen Muslims poking fun at say, Hindus, for having one too many gods, but I'm a little tired of my brethren walking around like it's their birthright to walk straight into Heaven. Why should you be any more proud to be a Muslim than if you're proud to be tall or have ten fingers? 
 
The only reason I haven't completely abandoned the idea of a God is because I don't understand death. It certainly makes it easier to fathom my inevitable doom by thinking that we have a purpose. I want to, nay, I need to believe in a grand scheme if I'm to live my life not in a state of a constant existential crisis.
 
Who's to say anyone of us is right? 

As we have not seen(understand is a different story) one universe, belief in Multiverse, is believing in the Unseen.

Let’s just assume for the argument sake, you and your immediate surrounding are the only reality. Somewhat Tangibles, don’t need an equation or a constant to fix a theory here.

Immediate surroundings Earth( and All the Life support mechanisms Air, water, Sun and the Moon.etc..)

So, You are here on this rock, let work with the By Chance theory,

Now what?

First question would be, There is a 50/50 chance that you may or may not be here in next hour/day/week. So what should you be spending your time on, instead of posting /guiding here?

Let’s face it, if this is the only chance you have got, given what is available for fun, why would you not be involved in it. Why would you even care about anyone or anything other than yourself ? 

Why not Maximize  your limited time, potential and opportunity? 

If you like, think it through, and articulate  your business/happy plan for  life as you see it as a by chance entity?

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So DNA and everything else just.. invented itself? But why? Why did it bother? Why did scientific laws invent themselves and why none of them just change themselves out of randomness? Macro evolution is also bs, there are only a handful of missing links and most fossils needed are all missing. You, my friend, have met self deluding people of limited intellects.

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Forgive me and correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you've made your mind up.

There are several compelling arguments for the existence of God, life makes no sense without God and would be nothing but a game of hedonism where every means is fair game no matter how sadistic, where tyrants can die without facing punishment, and the severely disabled from birth who suffer for decades are not compensated. In such a hypothetical world, what's the problem with having wrong beliefs? At the end of the day, we're all essentially a large composition of chemicals, the behaviour of which is physically pre-determined , and my consciousness and free-will is an illusion, right?

There is no need to explain these arguments. Every individual of normal intellect who is honest with themself, who thinks about the world around them and considers the purpose of this life, will undoubtedly come to the conclusions that these arguments which challenge the existence of God are absurd, that God does exist, and that we are to seek guidance from God.

Yes, when you initially see all these questions and arguments against God, it can throw you off and make you question your beliefs, but truly scrutinise all these arguments and you realise they make as much sense as 1+1 = 7 (ie none).

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4 hours ago, ZephyrintheEast said:

 

 
Have you ever considered that there is no God and we're really the consequence of...coincidence? A magnificent one on a celestial scale, but a coincidence nonetheless?

First of all, you say that our presence is a coincidence or this world is a coincidence. I am the student of sciences and I sudied that earth was formed by "Big Bang" . Means the rection of particles in outer space with excessive heat in present of sun. Is sun also a coincidence?Is moon, stars the black color all other planets are coincidence.? And how every system in this world is perfect. I mean if all these things are coincidence then there should be some mishappenings in solar system or in rising and setting of sun.

Once Hazrat Ali were giving sermon on Allah as creator a man stood and said that there is no god. If the god you believe can create so I can create too. Hazrat Ali asked what can you create? can you create a living thing? he said yes I can. He said I created these worms. Hazrat Ali asked how. He said I took some soil and putted into this mud made bowl. then I poured some water and placed it under the sun. After few days the worms emerged from the soil. So Iam the creator of these worms not your god who you believe. Hazrat Ali smiled for a moment and asked him that  you used the soil right? He replied yes. Did you created the soil? He kept quite. Hazrat Ali continued that you put it under the sun right ? did you created the sun?Ok if you are creator clasiffy who can survive in water from these who can not. He said how can I? Hazrat Ali said you are the creator you should know. He kept quite with his head bowed. Hazrat Ali then classified.

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2 hours ago, ZephyrintheEast said:

Have you ever considered that there is no God and we're really the consequence of...coincidence? A magnificent one on a celestial scale, but a coincidence nonetheless? There way as well may be infinite multiverse a out there, is it really that special to have life spring up on the tiniest of planets in the tiniest of solar systems in some so and so galaxy? 

The world being a coincidence would be illogical. You don't look at a building, and since the creator of that building is not present in front of your eyes, decide the building was just a coincidence, do you? Likewise creation as a whole, must have a source. It's up to us to determine what/who that source is.

2 hours ago, ZephyrintheEast said:

And if we're to put aside the sheer awesomeness of the world for a minute, what really is there to compel a belief in a God? 

Ever heard of Pascal's wager?

https://www.al-islam.org/sv/node/11859

Quote

 

Common sense reckons the necessity of preventing this “possible harm”. What is more, these messengers and prophets call man to a healthy and civilized life, and they also say that after death an extensive new world and everlasting blessings await one who has performed his duty. Does reason allow us to ignore this important message?

* * *
There is a similar argument known as the “Pascal's Bet,” named so after the famous French mathematician, Pascal (d. 1662 CE). Pascal proved the importance of inquiring about religion in the following way:

If you believe in the life-hereafter, you will gain everything if it really exists; and you lose nothing if it does not exist. Therefore, it is better to bet that it does exist.

The theme of this argument was presented by the Shi‘a Imams long before Pascal. We also know that Pascal had read Abu Hāmid al-Ghazāli's works. It, therefore, seems quite possible that Pascal might have read this argument from Imam ‘Ali (a.s.), the first Shi‘a Imam, as quoted in Mizānu 'l-A`māl of al-Ghazāli. Imam ‘Ali said:

The astrologer and the physician both say, `The dead will never be resurrected.'
I say: `Keep your counsel. If your idea is correct, I will come to no harm;
but if my belief is correct, then you will surely lose.'

 

 

2 hours ago, ZephyrintheEast said:

But what if that's all just the human mind trying to rationalize the unexplainable, or attempting to live with the fact that ultimately nothing is under its control? Haven't there been countless events in history where powerful folk used religion for political agendas such as conquer and control? Hell, some religions were born from purely those motives.

Well, that's not really an argument against the necessity of God. You'd also have to prove that Islam was founded on the basis of political motives for this statement to hold any weight.

2 hours ago, ZephyrintheEast said:

Gods all around the world have similar attributes and godly stories similar themes, and I feel like the differences in belief systems only reflect the differences in circumstances, geography, history etc. The Sumerians in ancient Mesopotamia believed  in Gilgamesh's Epic (origins of Noah's Ark story, some say) because their livelihood depends so deeply on the rise and recede of the Tigris and Euphrates. The Roman Empire eventually adopted Christianity because it was better suited for its imperialistic needs. The point is, each society in history had molded the concepts of a higher deity(ies) as was needed by the people of its time. 

Well, all religions (including Islam) have been manipulated by those in power. It's impossible to stop this. HOWEVER the Quran revealed to Muhammad (saw) has no sign of carrying a political motive, or being suited to the desires of the people of that time. The Quran actually openly contradicts the ways of the people of that time! It opposed idol worship, fornication, prostitution, gambling, killing daughters.... how could the Quran have been fabricated to suit this purpose?

3 hours ago, ZephyrintheEast said:

Too many times I've seen Muslims poking fun at say, Hindus, for having one too many gods, but I'm a little tired of my brethren walking around like it's their birthright to walk straight into Heaven. Why should you be any more proud to be a Muslim than if you're proud to be tall or have ten fingers? 

Does Allah not compare in the Quran the astray people to cattle? Poking fun and insulting doesn't help, but if someone is saying the truth about the deviant (and illogical) belief of polytheism, why do you have a problem with that?

4 hours ago, ZephyrintheEast said:
 
Who's to say anyone of us is right? 

The one who created us?

I hope Allah clears your doubts, Wasalaam.

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:bismillah:

:salam:

Hey brother,

Rationality rules of everything has a cause, and the universe which is materialistic needs to have a creator or else we would probably live in an extreme chaos world. Religion was found by God for the creation as a way to establish everything organized, and proper. 

However, most Atheists do a mistake which is "How was God created?", simply, the creator can't be adjusted to his laws/creation put by him, and hence, this argument is pretty weak. 

Man, which is the creation of God, the creator, is applying the very same laws we are applied at, making God = Humans. And that asserts a problematic concept.

Every human being is born with a special "mark", that is the need of a creator, so as for when someone gets in trouble. On more than one occasion I know an atheist who started strangely praying "Ya Allah Ya Allah Ya Allah" when his son had a car accident, so that stems from the human intellect.

Moreover, According to a Molecular Biologist I once heard his lecture, he said the opportunity of proteins stemming out of coincidence is 10^164, furthermore he added that no serious scientists actually thinks that's the way it happened.

In science there is a Law of Physics called the 1st Law of Thermodynamics. Within it is a Conservation of Energy Law that states, as a key principle that all energy in a closed system must be conserved. But what does that mean? It means that while energy can convert into matter (physical “stuff”), and matter into energy, however much total “stuff” there is (matter and energy), there can never be an increase in that total amount or a decrease in that total amount. So however much total “stuff” there is in the universe, (matter and energy combined), there can never have been more and never have been less. All it can do is convert to different forms, like matter to energy or energy to matter, but the total amount of all of it has to remain the same.

The “closed system” is a scientific term that refers to a system or an “area” that has no outside influence, like the universe. Now, as believers we know, of course, that God does influence the universe, so many believers would consider the universe an “open system”, (one that does get outside influence), but for the atheist who says there is no God, the universe is all there is, so from their perspective and for the sake of conventional science, the universe would get no outside influence and would therefore be considered a “closed system”.

Back to the 1st Law of Thermodynamics. If it states that you can never have an increase or decrease of energy/matter, which means that matter/energy can not be created from nothingness, how did we get all the matter and energy in the universe? If science is all there is and there is no God, then the 1st Law of Thermodynamics reigns supreme and therefore it would be impossible to have matter and energy in existence right now. Simply put, when you open your eyes and see matter and experience energy, what you see is impossible according to the known Laws of science if, in fact, there is no God. Therefore, science itself says there must be a God.

Certain Laws of Physics and science actually prove that there MUST be a God, a creator of the Universe. There are, in fact, many scientific principles that make it impossible for life to generate from non-life, (abiogenesis), or for the universe to come into existence from nothingness, or for complexity and design to grow and develop in the universe on it's own. To the believer, this is merely common sense, but using science itself as well as logic, intellect and reasoning to back up our faith.

It is up to you :) 

 

:ws:

Edited by M.IB

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5 hours ago, hasanhh said:

Ayats 10:100 & 13:31  You cannot believe if Alah-s.w.t. does not will it.

lf you do not 'believe' -in my personal opinion- it is because ehYawAllah-s.w.t. has no use for you.

Allah AWJ does not stop any one from guidance. The above verses are only for oppressors and haughty individuals who do not want to accept sovereignty of Allah AWJ due to obstinacy and without any reason. 

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Another brother on my discord channel translated an article by aqaed.com, and although you might have to read it more than once to understand what the writer is getting at, it's basically a more in-depth explanation of what @M.IB said.

https://findshiaislam.blogspot.ca/2017/10/a-philosophical-question-in-regards-to.html

Quote

Demoting of Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى to the rank of humans for purpose of understanding these questions by human mind, is something that doesn't give a realistic conclusion, rather a demoting theoretical conclusion, since you are trying to You are making a cognitive attempt within a system that question tools don't work except in humans' logic and world.

 

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17 hours ago, ZephyrintheEast said:

Salam and hello everyone,

I apologize from the get go if this sounds like a Tumblr post but I genuinely want to hear from other Shiachat lurkers regarding the titular question.
 
Over the past few years I've had the opportunity to meet people from a multitude of backgrounds and diverse schools of thought and I was shocked by how fragile the structural integrity of my beliefs was. Everything that I've ever known was challenged, and I started to question the very nature of my existence.
Now of course one could blame it on my upbringing, maybe I didn't attend enough lectures or didn't pray hard enough. It's possible, but I urge you to approach this topic pragmatically and with an open mind. 
 
Have you ever considered that there is no God and we're really the consequence of...coincidence? A magnificent one on a celestial scale, but a coincidence nonetheless? There way as well may be infinite multiverse a out there, is it really that special to have life spring up on the tiniest of planets in the tiniest of solar systems in some so and so galaxy? And if we're to put aside the sheer awesomeness of the world for a minute, what really is there to compel a belief in a God? 
 
Many of us claim that God has a destiny for us, and there's a grand plan. Things have a way of working out in the end, don't they? But what if that's all just the human mind trying to rationalize the unexplainable, or attempting to live with the fact that ultimately nothing is under its control? Haven't there been countless events in history where powerful folk used religion for political agendas such as conquer and control? Hell, some religions were born from purely those motives. 
 
Gods all around the world have similar attributes and godly stories similar themes, and I feel like the differences in belief systems only reflect the differences in circumstances, geography, history etc. The Sumerians in ancient Mesopotamia believed  in Gilgamesh's Epic (origins of Noah's Ark story, some say) because their livelihood depends so deeply on the rise and recede of the Tigris and Euphrates. The Roman Empire eventually adopted Christianity because it was better suited for its imperialistic needs. The point is, each society in history had molded the concepts of a higher deity(ies) as was needed by the people of its time. 
 
Too many times I've seen Muslims poking fun at say, Hindus, for having one too many gods, but I'm a little tired of my brethren walking around like it's their birthright to walk straight into Heaven. Why should you be any more proud to be a Muslim than if you're proud to be tall or have ten fingers? 
 
The only reason I haven't completely abandoned the idea of a God is because I don't understand death. It certainly makes it easier to fathom my inevitable doom by thinking that we have a purpose. I want to, nay, I need to believe in a grand scheme if I'm to live my life not in a state of a constant existential crisis.
 
Who's to say anyone of us is right? 

Good.  Keep up the good post.  I would like to read more.  

 

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18 hours ago, ZephyrintheEast said:

Have you ever considered that there is no God and we're really the consequence of...coincidence?

Yes, but it appears that knowledge & power are prerequisite for the origin of systems like universe & life. And that dictates the existence of necessary being. So there is no need to think about coincidence anymore.

Quote: "What if God was fictitious?"

It will not harm us. There would be no after-life, no heaven & hell etc. in such case, so we don't have no worries. But what will happen if you believe in that there is no God & you find it wrong after your death?

 

18 hours ago, ZephyrintheEast said:

The only reason I haven't completely abandoned the idea of a God is because I don't understand death.

It is not beneficial for you if you have partially abandoned the fact that there exists a necessary being. Have you understood life?

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12 hours ago, Sindbad05 said:

Allah AWJ does not stop any one from guidance. The above verses are only for oppressors and haughty individuals who do not want to accept sovereignty of Allah AWJ due to obstinacy and without any reason. 

Ayats 8:23-24

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21 hours ago, ZephyrintheEast said:

Salam ...

 
The only reason I haven't completely abandoned the idea of a God is because I don't understand death.

Death is when your physiological animation ceases.

Ayat 21:35 then  Ayats 31:11 with 52:47

Then look up "torment of the grave" in Sahih Muslim. A hadith search will accomplish this.

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15 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

That's the point bro. Allah AWJ has attached Hidayah to goodness and the one who stays away from goodness or dislikes it, hidayah does not reach him. In other words, hidayah is inversely proportional to ignorance and help of Allah AWJ.

The ayats l listed above l found while trying to look-up the ayat where it is revealed that Allah-s.w.t. will meet 'him' ~half-way. 'Him' being the person going into repentance.

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5 hours ago, just a muslim said:

the great poet Iqbal said: you may reject God, but how will you deny Muhammad? (saw)

Ki jo Khuda ne apni Hamd Muhammad Say,

Kham kar diye sab aitraz issi hamd say, 

Zahoor e Muhammad wujood e Khuda ki daleel hai, 

Issi Daleel say Nubwat ka woh Maqam hai,

Jo jhuke Muhammad k ehtaram main, 

Woh Jhuka hai Khuda ki Sajdah gah main, 

Iqbal, Muhammad hi Khuda ka raaz hai, 

Iss raaz say Hamd e Khuda ki Shurat hai.

(Ghulam Muhammad Muhammadi) 

Edited by Sindbad05

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6 hours ago, hasanhh said:

The ayats l listed above l found while trying to look-up the ayat where it is revealed that Allah-s.w.t. will meet 'him' ~half-way. 'Him' being the person going into repentance.

No, I did not understand this at all. Could you explain it ? or not then it's ok as well :) 

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On 08/11/2017 at 10:51 AM, ZephyrintheEast said:

Over the past few years I've had the opportunity to meet people from a multitude of backgrounds and diverse schools of thought and I was shocked by how fragile the structural integrity of my beliefs was. Everything that I've ever known was challenged, and I started to question the very nature of my existence.

You need not have been shocked. It's quite common.

On 08/11/2017 at 10:51 AM, ZephyrintheEast said:

Now of course one could blame it on my upbringing, maybe I didn't attend enough lectures or didn't pray hard enough. It's possible, but I urge you to approach this topic pragmatically and with an open mind. 

I doubt attending more lectures would have helped much. As for praying harder, what exactly should you have prayed for? To not be exposed to alternative viewpoints?

On 08/11/2017 at 10:51 AM, ZephyrintheEast said:

Have you ever considered that there is no God and we're really the consequence of...coincidence? A magnificent one on a celestial scale, but a coincidence nonetheless?

Since it's the prevailing view in the Western world, you would need to really go out of your way not to consider it.

On 08/11/2017 at 10:51 AM, ZephyrintheEast said:

There way as well may be infinite multiverse a out there, is it really that special to have life spring up on the tiniest of planets in the tiniest of solar systems in some so and so galaxy?

Woah there. 'There may well be'? You make it sound like there is some kind of evidence for this, when the reality is that this theory exists solely because otherwise the chances of things working out in our universe the way they do are so incredibly remote that it looks like a miracle. There is zero evidence for any other universe other than our own, and your question is basically backwards. It's not the fact that there are an infinite number of universes that make life so mundane (there is no evidence for the premise of this statement), rather it's the miraculous existence of life that almost necessitates inventing this purported infinitude of universes in order to keep up the pretence that life is due to random chance.

On 08/11/2017 at 10:51 AM, ZephyrintheEast said:

And if we're to put aside the sheer awesomeness of the world for a minute, what really is there to compel a belief in a God? 

There are many reasons. One of which being the fact that life loses all meaning without God. My belief is that all of us recognise deep down that God exists, and Islam is simply a reminder of this. When we choose to not believe in God, we have to suppress this knowledge of God.

On 08/11/2017 at 10:51 AM, ZephyrintheEast said:

Many of us claim that God has a destiny for us, and there's a grand plan. Things have a way of working out in the end, don't they? But what if that's all just the human mind trying to rationalize the unexplainable, or attempting to live with the fact that ultimately nothing is under its control? Haven't there been countless events in history where powerful folk used religion for political agendas such as conquer and control? Hell, some religions were born from purely those motives. 

I'm not sure how this is overly relevant. The fact that there are false religions, or that people use religion for nefarious purposes doesn't invalidate the existence of a true religion.

On 08/11/2017 at 10:51 AM, ZephyrintheEast said:
Gods all around the world have similar attributes and godly stories similar themes, and I feel like the differences in belief systems only reflect the differences in circumstances, geography, history etc. The Sumerians in ancient Mesopotamia believed  in Gilgamesh's Epic (origins of Noah's Ark story, some say) because their livelihood depends so deeply on the rise and recede of the Tigris and Euphrates.
 
The Roman Empire eventually adopted Christianity because it was better suited for its imperialistic needs. The point is, each society in history had molded the concepts of a higher deity(ies) as was needed by the people of its time. 

Or maybe all these attributes are similar because they stem from the same origin, and that deep down everyone has that innate knowledge of God imprinted on our souls? 

As for the Romans adopting Christianity because it better suited their imperialistic needs, I'd be really interested in seeing some evidence for that. It seems to me that they did much better under their pagan religion than they did under Christianity.

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On 11/8/2017 at 10:51 AM, ZephyrintheEast said:

There way as well may be infinite multiverse a out there, is it really that special to have life spring up on the tiniest of planets in the tiniest of solar systems in some so and so galaxy

You could have an infinite multiverse, that produces an infinite number of worlds, all of which are not life permitting.  For a multiverse to be able to produce life permitting universes, it has to be fine-tuned.  So the possibility of a multiverse does no refute the fine-tuning argument.

It also doesnt explain the fine tuning of the world for discovery:

 

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On 11/8/2017 at 5:51 AM, ZephyrintheEast said:

Salam and hello everyone,

I apologize from the get go if this sounds like a Tumblr post but I genuinely want to hear from other Shiachat lurkers regarding the titular question.
 
Over the past few years I've had the opportunity to meet people from a multitude of backgrounds and diverse schools of thought and I was shocked by how fragile the structural integrity of my beliefs was. Everything that I've ever known was challenged, and I started to question the very nature of my existence.
Now of course one could blame it on my upbringing, maybe I didn't attend enough lectures or didn't pray hard enough. It's possible, but I urge you to approach this topic pragmatically and with an open mind. 
 
Have you ever considered that there is no God and we're really the consequence of...coincidence? A magnificent one on a celestial scale, but a coincidence nonetheless? There way as well may be infinite multiverse a out there, is it really that special to have life spring up on the tiniest of planets in the tiniest of solar systems in some so and so galaxy? And if we're to put aside the sheer awesomeness of the world for a minute, what really is there to compel a belief in a God? 
 
Many of us claim that God has a destiny for us, and there's a grand plan. Things have a way of working out in the end, don't they? But what if that's all just the human mind trying to rationalize the unexplainable, or attempting to live with the fact that ultimately nothing is under its control? Haven't there been countless events in history where powerful folk used religion for political agendas such as conquer and control? Hell, some religions were born from purely those motives. 
 
Gods all around the world have similar attributes and godly stories similar themes, and I feel like the differences in belief systems only reflect the differences in circumstances, geography, history etc. The Sumerians in ancient Mesopotamia believed  in Gilgamesh's Epic (origins of Noah's Ark story, some say) because their livelihood depends so deeply on the rise and recede of the Tigris and Euphrates. The Roman Empire eventually adopted Christianity because it was better suited for its imperialistic needs. The point is, each society in history had molded the concepts of a higher deity(ies) as was needed by the people of its time. 
 
Too many times I've seen Muslims poking fun at say, Hindus, for having one too many gods, but I'm a little tired of my brethren walking around like it's their birthright to walk straight into Heaven. Why should you be any more proud to be a Muslim than if you're proud to be tall or have ten fingers? 
 
The only reason I haven't completely abandoned the idea of a God is because I don't understand death. It certainly makes it easier to fathom my inevitable doom by thinking that we have a purpose. I want to, nay, I need to believe in a grand scheme if I'm to live my life not in a state of a constant existential crisis.
 
Who's to say anyone of us is right? 

You have not responded. I am assuming that you are either very busy, or a very shy person. Or feel entitled to the answers or else. 

Any case. I am a layman, so I read and try to understand it for my own benefit. I do not have the ability to answer your questions, I reflect and post my assessments for review and critique.  Most of the time, I will not address it directly, as stated before, do not have the ability to answer. So, mostly,  I like to first look at the basic concepts, most of the time problem is with the basic knowledge or assumptions. 

As stated before, it is a general misconception that we know everything about this particular System/Universe. 

Quote

But stars and galaxies do not tell the whole story. Astronomical and physical calculations suggest that the visible universe is only a tiny amount (4%) of what the universe is actually made of. A very large fraction of the universe, in fact 26%, is made of an unknown type of matter called "dark matter". Unlike stars and galaxies, dark matter does not emit any light or electromagnetic radiation of any kind, so that we can detect it only through its gravitational effects. 

An even more mysterious form of energy called “dark energy” accounts for about 70% of the mass-energy content of the universe. Even less is known about it than dark matter. This idea stems from the observation that all galaxies seems to be receding from each other at an accelerating pace, implying that some invisible extra energy is at work.

https://home.cern/about/physics/early-universe

Quote

Why is gravity so much weaker than the other fundamental forces? A small fridge magnet is enough to create an electromagnetic force greater than the gravitational pull exerted by planet Earth. One possibility is that we don’t feel the full effect of gravity  because part of it spreads to extra dimensions. Though it may sound like science fiction, if extra dimensions exist, they could explain why the universe is expanding faster than expected, and why gravity is weaker than the other forces of nature.

https://home.cern/about/physics/extra-dimensions-gravitons-and-tiny-black-holes

Quote

The entire Universe is made up of particles. But where do they come from? What laws govern their behaviour? The purpose of the "Universe of particles" exhibition is for visitors to confront the great questions of contemporary physics, currently being explored by the CERN 

https://visit.cern/exhibitions/universe-particles

Based on above, we know very little about the System/Universe we are in - In this universe, we are a tiny rock, out of the 100 billion objects in our milky way, which is one of the 100 billion plus out there in one System/Universe.

So, Multiverse Theory is non consequential here. Someone may have just added/burdened  that extra layer of Proof on you to submit /believe his/her highly/fool proof thesis. Its just a theory.....May have value but not in the context you were sold on.

As pointed by others, Fine tuning of your package and what's around you - can't be denied by any intelligent person. 

You did not create yourself, nor you have the ability to create or control your self and what's around you- This fact indicates to an intelligient person that he/she in not Creator/Control/Sustainer of your self or what is around you. ( Air, Water, Soil, Earth, Sun, Moon).

You are helpless in front of Nature. 

This would indicate that There is a System, that you are a product of. You may say, that this Earth, Sun, Moon Air, Water land, all are part of the Support system. Which is beyond your control, Your own Physical body is beyond your own control( in a way) breathing, is automatic etc..

So, no intelligent person will deny, his/her worth as a product of the System and controlled by the System, and not having any control over the System. ie. Subservient to it. 

What you call that System is not important at this point. But there are forces, beyond your control not were created by you. You are Subservient to it. 

What conclusion will you reach based on above?

Atheist have a canny ability to mix many concepts and confuse people. Some are our own faults. Look we look for a easy way out, and to have fun. So, we will not scrutinize what we like to believe as it works for us. No god- no accountability- fun fun and more fun...who wants to investigate, hold the so called scientists or scientific news to the same level of investigation when we are been offered a way out. Use general  terms and we are home free. 

Death, - depend on hoe  you define it .

We are part of million in a fluid in our fathers body. I am sure you do not define us leaving that temporary realm as death. nor do we define, us interacting with an egg in our mothers body as annihilation of the original in a complete sense. It and the egg (two independent entities-) passed to another  stage, and finally we do not call Childbirth into this world from the mothers body as death. So, based on facts and past procedure/methods/obersvations/mechanic that are undeniable.

What do you think happens to this physical body in this realm. Is it been groomed for the next stage like the sperm, egg, baby on the womb. Mothers womb was a complete system, to support us in that realm.

Is this earth our new womb ?  So, what is been developed here, something physical or something beyond that? Would you call it dead and annihilation of us, once our  physical parts go six feet under- is it the end of the process?  Provide proof. why would people who hail discovery and methods to prove something or will not us this as a undeniable proof for an argument that there must be a next stage? 

Next Stage is undeniable based on proof/method/mechanics/observation of systems - what that is not important at this point.

Fact that based on observation, we can conclude the next stage is undeniable.

 

Edited by S.M.H.A.

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On 11/8/2017 at 5:51 AM, ZephyrintheEast said:

 

Over the past few years I've had the opportunity to meet people from a multitude of backgrounds and diverse schools of thought and I was shocked by how fragile the structural integrity of my beliefs was. Everything that I've ever known was challenged, and I started to question the very nature of my existence.
 

Let’s look at it from purely empirical knowledge point of view. Study of plants, earth, human, celestial bodies which you will call in aggregate terms Science. Study/investigation/knowledge from observation. Basically, Discovery of what already exists at the very fundamental level,and we may mix and match these components we discover, to assemble( not create ) new products, enzymes, particles, energies or derive benefit from them. Again nothing is created, it's all assembly work, raw material is already provided, we discover /uncover and assemble.

For argument sake. Let's not argue with the theory or descent with modification aka evolution. We are here and this partial knowledge tells us that only strong, well fit, adaptable service. Survival of the fittest, or the best adaptable.

 

(Survival of the fittest, and best adaptable need an Overall  guidance system otherwise the impact/effects can be damaging to self or society - We will leave this part of the argument for another time)

Let's look at the proponent's this theory, and see  if their are really advancing this theory for the purpose of the benefit if the humanity or their is another purpose. Implementation of this knowledge that we have acquired will tell us the real motive.

The people you met, who enlightened you to the new realities. See what is their real purpose and effort behind this dawah/invitation of their way of life.

If we were to look at it from this perspective, the following facts can’t be denied.

No alternative lifestyle

Perfect health

No Substance abuse( alcohol, drugs)

No crime/jail terms

No diseases of all kinds acquired/transmitted or through unhealthy food consumption.

Perfect psychological health.

Procreation- Prime directive.( All activities must support this Prime directive)

Protection of what we procreate

See it comes to fruition and next procreation cycle

In a secular sense, what above means is that you are to live in accordance with the knowledge you have gained through discovery(Science) .

Priority is to Procreate- You need perfect physical, emotional and psychological state, no crimes that may lend you in jail, no activity that may result in you acquiring a deadly transmitted disease. Finding a pure/loyal partner with the same qualities, to procreate. Ensure that it's your generation. No outside stuff happening.

Once you procreate, need to provide best quality food, no fast food stuff which just fills the pockets of the corporation and later doctors. Pharmacists and drug companies and lawyers. Providing the best home environment, means you and your partner are dedicated/loyal  to each others, in case of a divorce( we know the harmful effects), ones you procreated will not be in perfect Conditions( All conditions as highlighted above). Ensuring that they get to stay out of jail, find pure healthy partners etc…..( same stuff that you need to avoid)

Tell, me the ones marketing no god theory, believe in Discovery( science( subset of knowledge) are the selling you a smoke screen or are they true to their findings( Knowledge that has come to them through efforts). ?

You can’t avoid Rules and regulations and best practices even if you were to follow what is been marketed. Which is not practiced, just marketed. No fun, the type of fun, enticement that is offered that  may make one to  leave other belief system. As this system curtails all inappropriate behaviour, to be able to procreate. No alternative lifestyle as it defeats the purpose of this theory, it end the survival.

So, what are we really, looking at here?

Total anarchy, rebellion, even against the Knowledge that has come to us through out efforts observing “us” and what’s around us.

What systems is been marketed in reality?

No accountability. Even under the Discovery method. I just want to do what i want and feel like, I am not worried about any consequences. I want to live for a the moment. Instant satisfaction/gratification.

I will offer any excuse to avoid responsibility and accountability. This is what i see at the core of this  new Religion of individualism. So, i see these efforts to offer, scientific excuses as a smoke screen, as they are not even supported by their constitution.  It's just convenient to offer Current Knowledge and half baked/fairytales/theories to deflect.

Because based on current knowledge, they would be very close to the system they are trying  to negate.

I would not pay attention to acronyms, terminology, philosophical riddles or high wire acts.

Dissect, disintegrate, dissect, break it down to the lowest level/fundamental level terminology  the argument and see what lies at the core if the issue. We do not need Phds to understand this basic simple stuff.

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On 11/8/2017 at 5:51 AM, ZephyrintheEast said:

 

Many of us claim that God has a destiny for us, and there's a grand plan. Things have a way of working out in the end, don't they? But what if that's all just the human mind trying to rationalize the unexplainable, or attempting to live with the fact that ultimately nothing is under its control? Haven't there been countless events in history where powerful folk used religion for political agendas such as conquer and control? Hell, some religions were born from purely those motives. 
 
Gods all around the world have similar attributes and godly stories similar themes, and I feel like the differences in belief systems only reflect the differences in circumstances, geography, history etc. The Sumerians in ancient Mesopotamia believed  in Gilgamesh's Epic (origins of Noah's Ark story, some say) because their livelihood depends so deeply on the rise and recede of the Tigris and Euphrates. The Roman Empire eventually adopted Christianity because it was better suited for its imperialistic needs. The point is, each society in history had molded the concepts of a higher deity(ies) as was needed by the people of its time. 
 

Your actions are in your control. that is what even he secular system judges you on, things that you control. Choices you make when you have two alternatives. One in conformity with the Law. and other is against it. You either stop at the stop sign ( which is the Law, The Absolute Will) or your speed through( Your will/choice) . The Absolute Will will prevail and you will have to pay for it, you are free to choose but here  are ( consequences) to your choice. 

*****

Capitalism, Communism, Freedomism, human rightism, economic, nationalism etc…

Whatever rallis the people it will be used, so i do not see your point. When European were religious, wars/crusades had a religious slogans, as they became secular, the slogans have changed to freedom, human rights etc….

Middle east is still religious, you can rally the people in the name of religion.

You can't do that in the secular countries, no one cares. Unless it hits their pocket/lifestyle( way of life- i.e Religion)You tell them national security(Nationalism, to preserve lifestyle) , or  you jobs are been taken, you will see a response….Oil/resource rich region/routes etc...

You could say, elite/powerful, utilized what was prevalent at that time, whatever will rally the troops. See an economic distress/downturn in a country, you can rally the masses to support , as their pockets are empty. To preserve their status/livelihood they  will support your outside endeavors….

WWI, WWII, one we are in Economic/proxy WWIII

Edited by S.M.H.A.

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