Am I allowed to follow a deceased Marja?

[Shogun]

Both my parents have been following Sayyed Muhammad Hussein Fadlullah (ra) since way back. In 2010 Sayyed Muhammad Hussein Fadlullah (ra) passed away. I was not aware what a marja was back in 2010, and when I did learn of their existence I took on Sayyed Muhammad Hussein Fadlullah (ra) as my marja without a second thought since he was the marja of my parents. Since following a marja who has passed on is not allowed do I need to change my marja?

Thank You

[Ashvazdanghe]

hi if you know him more knowledgeable than current Marjas you can continue it at first you must compare their opinions & Resala

this with current marjas

second he has students  that you can compare them with him.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_Maraji

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_Maraji

20

Khamenei - خامنه اي‎ Sayyid Ali Hoseyni Khamenei السيد علي حسيني خامنه اي‎

1939

1358

Iran

Iran  Iraq  Lebanon

Iran

Official Website

-

at last it depends on your choice.

[Najamsethi484]

its more prefealble to follow Ayatollah SIstani HA he is the best marja in world

[Hameedeh]

If he was asking which marja he should follow, he can choose among many of the Ulema:

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/71812-grand-ayatullahs/

The OP is asking a different question, about a deceased marja. Please read his question again. 

 

[Ron_Burgundy]

16 hours ago, Shogun said:

Both my parents have been following Sayyed Muhammad Hussein Fadlullah (ra) since way back. In 2010 Sayyed Muhammad Hussein Fadlullah (ra) passed away. I was not aware what a marja was back in 2010, and when I did learn of their existence I took on Sayyed Muhammad Hussein Fadlullah (ra) as my marja without a second thought since he was the marja of my parents. Since following a marja who has passed on is not allowed do I need to change my marja?

Thank You

According to the Usuli belief, you are NOT allowed to do taqleed to a dead marja'. But, pretend if you are in taqleed of a marja' and he happens to pass away, you can stay taqleed to him, but all new questions / rulings will have to be brought up to another marja who is alive. The key words of his statement is "stay on Taqleed", which is saying, you have to be already a muqallid (person in taqleed) of that particular marja' before he passes away.

[Hameedeh]

A new Muslim, say a revert or convert, needs to choose a marja who is still alive. Since his family was following Ayatullah Fadlallah, they probably thought that he was too young to choose a marja and they were following Ayatullah Fadlallah in his behalf or in his best interest. He wants to know if he can keep following his marja in this case. 

[mesbah]

Salam

One can follow (continue following) a deceased Marja, only by the permission of a qualified living Marja.

I think if the OP sends his story to the office of a qualified living Marja, they can help him (about the permission and the validity of past auctions)

[Shogun]

14 minutes ago, mesbah said:

Salam

One can follow (continue following) a deceased Marja, only by the permission of a qualified living Marja.

I think if the OP sends his story to the office of a qualified living Marja, they can help him (about the permission and the validity of past auctions)

I read that most marja's don't allow taqleed of a deceased marja, but there are a few exceptions such as Sheikh Muhammad Ibrahim Al-Jannati or Sayyid Kamal Al-Haidary. I was wondering if my parents were following Muhammad Hussein Fadlullah (ra) on my behalf would it be okay to keep him as my marja?  

Below is a question posed by a fellow muslim brother

On Ayatollah Fadlallah’s English website, it said that it is permissible to begin following Sayyid Fadlallah (a deceased Marja’) by referring to the fatwa (ruling) of a living Marja’ who deems it permissible to do so, such as Sheikh Muhammad Ibrahim Al-Jannati or Sayyid Kamal Al-Haidary. Is there anything wrong with this, especially since such scholars have endorsed it?

Thank You

Edited November 9, 2017 by Shogun

[mesbah]

If one knows those two scholars as the most knowledgeable among all the rest of Ulema who have an opposite fatwa, then he can reffer to their fatwa in this regard.

Additionally, based on this fatwa, one is allowed to follow the most knowledgeable among all Shia scholars, past and present; that is, one must believe Sayyid Fadallah was and is the most knowledgeable compared to not only his temporaries, but also to Shaykh al-Tusi, alMufid, Allama Hilli, Murtada Ansari and many great past Marja. That's very problematic.

[Shogun]

1 hour ago, mesbah said:

If one knows those two scholars as the most knowledgeable among all the rest of Ulema who have an opposite fatwa, then he can reffer to their fatwa in this regard.

Additionally, based on this fatwa, one is allowed to follow the most knowledgeable among all Shia scholars, past and present; that is, one must believe Sayyid Fadallah was and is the most knowledgeable compared to not only his temporaries, but also to Shaykh al-Tusi, alMufid, Allama Hilli, Murtada Ansari and many great past Marja. That's very problematic.

If my parents were following Muhammad Hussein Fadlullah (ra) on my behalf would it be okay to keep him as my marja?

[Sumerian]

12 minutes ago, Shogun said:

If my parents were following Muhammad Hussein Fadlullah (ra) on my behalf would it be okay to keep him as my marja?

What do you mean by follow on my behalf?

[Shogun]

16 minutes ago, E.L King said:

What do you mean by follow on my behalf?

My mom tells me I was born following him since both she and my father were following him. Is that sufficient enough to keep him as my marja?

Thank You

Edited November 9, 2017 by Shogun

[Shogun]

3 hours ago, mesbah said:

If one knows those two scholars as the most knowledgeable among all the rest of Ulema who have an opposite fatwa, then he can reffer to their fatwa in this regard.

Additionally, based on this fatwa, one is allowed to follow the most knowledgeable among all Shia scholars, past and present; that is, one must believe Sayyid Fadallah was and is the most knowledgeable compared to not only his temporaries, but also to Shaykh al-Tusi, alMufid, Allama Hilli, Murtada Ansari and many great past Marja. That's very problematic.

Did you get this rulling from Sayed al-khamenai? Would the above rulling apply to me even though I don't follow Sayed al-khamenai or any of the other marja's who support the rulling? My marja or the marja I'm trying to follow says that I can follow him if I find an opinion of a marja who is worthy of being followed that allows emulation of a marja after his death. Are Sheikh Muhammad Ibrahim Al-Jannati or Sayyid Kamal Al-Haidary worthy of being followed? And do you know where I can find the ruling that states that I can follow a deceased marja?

Thank You

BTW I know it is not appropriate to insult or talk bad about marjas, and I just want a little background info on Sheikh Muhammad Ibrahim Al-Jannati or Sayyid Kamal Al-Haidary beliefs to make sure that I can adhere to their rulling on following a deceased marja.

http://english.bayynat.org.lb/FAQ/FAQ_EmulationAfterDeath.htm 

Q: Is it permissible for he who has never emulated the late Sayyed Fadlullah (ra) before his death to start to emulate him after his death?

A: It is permissible for he who has not emulated His Eminence, Sayyed Fadlullah (ra), before his death to start to emulate him after his death by going back to the opinion of the living religious authority who meets all the required conditions [for emulation] and deems it permissible to start to emulate a religious authority after his death; and such a religious authority does exist.

 

Edited November 9, 2017 by Shogun

[A Muslim Artist]

I'd like to make this example, my family were eating out and a lot of us were having a certain thing (in all honesty I don't remember what it was) well my younger cousin also wanted the food item but my older cousin explained to her she couldn't have it. I then asked why and he explained that we were alive and following Fadlullah but she was born after he died.

I might of gotten a couple details wrong, this happened many years ago.

[Sumerian]

3 hours ago, Shogun said:

My mom tells me I was born following him since both she and my father were following him. Is that sufficient enough to keep him as my marja?

Thank You

How old were you when he died?

[mesbah]

Like the way no one can pray or fast on one's behalf, no one can follow a Marja on one's behalf.

At least you must have been at tamyiz age and followed him during his lifetime.

 

Sayyid Kamal:

معتقديم كه در صورت اثبات اعلميت، تقليد از ميت، چه به صورت ابتدایی و چه به صورت بقایی اشکال ندارد؛ منظورمان از اعلميت نیز، اعم از اعلميت در احكام است، بلكه شامل عموم معارف دينی مى گردد، و هرگاه اعلميت فردى ثابت شد، خواه زنده باشد يا مرده، ...

http://alhaydari.com/fa/category/estefta/اجتهاد-و-تقليد/

"We believe, under the condition of being the most knowledgeable, starting to follow or continuing to follow a deceased Marja is allowed."

[Hassan-]

@Shogun you’re making this hard on yourself. Just simply ask yourself, do you believe Sayed fadlallah (ra) is the most knowledgeable marja’ out of all the maraji’? If you really think so, provide reasons and proof, if not then you must follow a living marja’ that is the most knowledgeable.

Imam Khamenei and Sayed Sistani have the most ahlul khibra (scholars) that vouch for them (according to common knowledge) out of all the living maraji’ today. This means choosing between one of those two maraji’ is a good enough reason to consider them as most knowledgeable.

[Shogun]

5 hours ago, mesbah said:

Sayyid Kamal:

معتقديم كه در صورت اثبات اعلميت، تقليد از ميت، چه به صورت ابتدایی و چه به صورت بقایی اشکال ندارد؛ منظورمان از اعلميت نیز، اعم از اعلميت در احكام است، بلكه شامل عموم معارف دينی مى گردد، و هرگاه اعلميت فردى ثابت شد، خواه زنده باشد يا مرده، ...

http://alhaydari.com/fa/category/estefta/اجتهاد-و-تقليد/

"We believe, under the condition of being the most knowledgeable, starting to follow or continuing to follow a deceased Marja is allowed."

This is good enough for me. Thanks for the ruling. So this ruling alone is good enough to put this matter to rest, and allow me to follow Sayyed Muhammad Hussein Fadlullah (ra) since all I needed was an okay from a marja. I'm curious if I decided to keep Sayyed Muhammad Hussein Fadlullah (ra) anyway without adhering to any rulling would I have committed a sin in some way?

Thank You

[Shogun]

3 hours ago, Hassan- said:

@Shogun you’re making this hard on yourself. Just simply ask yourself, do you believe Sayed fadlallah (ra) is the most knowledgeable marja’ out of all the maraji’? If you really think so, provide reasons and proof, if not then you must follow a living marja’ that is the most knowledgeable.

Imam Khamenei and Sayed Sistani have the most ahlul khibra (scholars) that vouch for them (according to common knowledge) out of all the living maraji’ today. This means choosing between one of those two maraji’ is a good enough reason to consider them as most knowledgeable.

Well lets see. hmmmm Sayyed Muhammad Hussein Fadlullah (ra) says you can close your eyes in prayer and Sayyed Sistani says it is not permissible. And since I love to close my eyes in prayer I'd have to agree with Sayyed Muhammad Hussein Fadlullah (ra), and take him on as my marja LOL. +1000 points Sayyed Muhammad Hussein Fadlullah (ra)

All jokes aside the only reason I started this topic was because someone pointed out to me that it was not allowed to follow a deceased marja. I have been happy with all the knowledge I have learned from Bayynat Sayyed Muhammad Hussein Fadlullah (ra) website, and based on his knowledge I consider him a worthy marja. That's not to say any of the other marja's are lacking in knowledge and expertise. Whenever I have a question I also visit Sistani.org and read up on sistani's rulings, and have emailed his office several times asking them questions, but I find no reason to change my marja since I have found no issues with Sayyed Muhammad Hussein Fadlullah (ra), and his fatwas have made sense to me.

Thank You  

[mesbah]

1 hour ago, Shogun said:

. So this ruling alone is good enough to put this matter to rest,

No, you have to have enough evidence that proves Sayyid Fadlallal's being 'the most knowledgeable in the history of Shia Islam.'

The ruling says 'under the condition of being the most knowledgeable'

No layman can assess a scholar's knowledge by correspondence with his website, while closing eyes on the whole other scholars, past and present. 

And I don't think many people in Hawza would regard Sayyid Kamal himself as a candidate for the most knowledgeable, specially in this particular ruling which goes against the consensus of Shia scholars.

[mesbah]

1 hour ago, Shogun said:

. I'm curious if I decided to keep Sayyed Muhammad Hussein Fadlullah (ra) anyway without adhering to any rulling would I have committed a sin in some way?

The validity of your religious actions (prayer, fasting etc) is problematic, thus, yes it is a sin.

Without adherence to a living Marja, one does not have adherence to the Imam of the time, and without adherence to the Imam of the time, one dies a death of jahiliyya. That's one aspect of the continuity of Wilaya in Shia Islam.

[Sumerian]

Even if you believe he is the most knowledgable, you must follow a living qualified marja first who is the most knowledgable today, then he can either allow you or disallow you to follow a deceased marja.

However, I ask, how old were you when he died? 

[Shogun]

10 hours ago, mesbah said:

No, you have to have enough evidence that proves Sayyid Fadlallal's being 'the most knowledgeable in the history of Shia Islam.'

This seems like quite a difficult task, and one that could take years of my life to figure out. The way they make it sound on bayynat site is that it's as easy as 1 2 3. Does Muhammad Ibrahim Al-Jannati have the same ruling of allowing taqlid of a deceased marja except with the pre conditions of having Sayyid Fadlallal's be 'the most knowledgeable in the history of Shia Islam? That would make this a lot easier for me.

Thank You 

Name: hassan	Country: ...	Date: 28/09/2013
Is there a way i could do taqleed on sayyed fadhlullah even though he passed away?
It is permissible to emulate the late marja’ Fadlallah after his death by going back to a fatwa of a living marja’ that deems amulating a dead marja’ right from the start including H. E. Muhammad Ibrahim Al-Jinati http://english.bayynat.org/readers_mail/ Salam. Can a beginer start by emulating late Ayatollah Fadhalullah(qs), if not، is their any living marja'i who allow his emulators to used late Fadhalullah(q.s) fatwa? A1: This is permissible by referring to the Fatwa of a living religious authority who deems starting emulation by emulating a dead religious authority permissible, such as Sheikh Muhammad Ibrahim Al-Jannati. http://english.bayynat.org.lb/readers_mail/readers16.htm   Q: Is it permissible for he who has never emulated the late Sayyed Fadlullah (ra) before his death to start to emulate him after his death? A: It is permissible for he who has not emulated His Eminence, Sayyed Fadlullah (ra), before his death to start to emulate him after his death by going back to the opinion of the living religious authority who meets all the required conditions [for emulation] and deems it permissible to start to emulate a religious authority after his death; and such a religious authority does exist. http://english.bayynat.org.lb/FAQ/FAQ_EmulationAfterDeath.htm

Edited November 10, 2017 by Shogun

[Shogun]

6 hours ago, E.L King said:

Even if you believe he is the most knowledgable, you must follow a living qualified marja first who is the most knowledgable today, then he can either allow you or disallow you to follow a deceased marja.

Do I have to follow them or is it enough that I refer to one of their rulings? The ruling states that all I need to do is go back to the opinion of the living religious authority. 

A: It is permissible for he who has not emulated His Eminence, Sayyed Fadlullah (ra), before his death to start to emulate him after his death by going back to the opinion of the living religious authority who meets all the required conditions [for emulation] and deems it permissible to start to emulate a religious authority after his death; and such a religious authority does exist.

Thank You

[Shogun]

10 hours ago, mesbah said:

And I don't think many people in Hawza would regard Sayyid Kamal himself as a candidate for the most knowledgeable, specially in this particular ruling which goes against the consensus of Shia scholars.

The way I see Taqlid is that a highly respected marja like Sayyed Muhammad Hussein Fadlullah (ra) allows following a deceased marja, and he is the marja I'm looking to follow. So even though this particular ruling goes against what the majority of the Shia scholars believe Sayyed Muhammad Hussein Fadlullah (ra) is the marja who's opinion I look for in all matters in my life, and he believes that following a deceased scholar is permissible. Do you think that is reason enough to follow his advice and listen to the other scholars who also allow Taqlid to a deceased scholar?

Thank You     

[Sumerian]

31 minutes ago, Shogun said:

Do I have to follow them or is it enough that I refer to one of their rulings? The ruling states that all I need to do is go back to the opinion of the living religious authority. 

A: It is permissible for he who has not emulated His Eminence, Sayyed Fadlullah (ra), before his death to start to emulate him after his death by going back to the opinion of the living religious authority who meets all the required conditions [for emulation] and deems it permissible to start to emulate a religious authority after his death; and such a religious authority does exist.

Thank You

If the opinion of the living most qualified marja allows you to follow a dead marja, then you can follow him.

But most maraja don't seem to allow following dead marjas to begin with, only if you followed him before he died.

[Shogun]

8 minutes ago, E.L King said:

If the opinion of the living most qualified marja allows you to follow a dead marja, then you can follow him.

But most maraja don't seem to allow following dead marjas to begin with, only if you followed him before he died.

Sayyed Muhammad Hussein Fadlullah (ra) doesn't say that the marja has to be the living most qualified marja? He says that all I need is a fatwa from a marja stating that he allows the following of a deceased marja. Even though most don't allow Taqlid to a deceased marja their are a few who allow it.

Thank You

Is there a way i could do taqleed on sayyed fadhlullah even though he passed away?

It is permissible to emulate the late marja’ Fadlallah after his death by going back to a fatwa of a living marja’ that deems amulating a dead marja’ right from the start including H. E. Muhammad Ibrahim Al-Jinati http://english.bayynat.org/readers_mail/   Salam. Can a beginer start by emulating late Ayatollah Fadhalullah(qs), if not، is their any living marja'i who allow his emulators to used late Fadhalullah(q.s) fatwa? A1: This is permissible by referring to the Fatwa of a living religious authority who deems starting emulation by emulating a dead religious authority permissible, such as Sheikh Muhammad Ibrahim Al-Jannati. http://english.bayynat.org.lb/readers_mail/readers16.htm   Q: Is it permissible for he who has never emulated the late Sayyed Fadlullah (ra) before his death to start to emulate him after his death? A: It is permissible for he who has not emulated His Eminence, Sayyed Fadlullah (ra), before his death to start to emulate him after his death by going back to the opinion of the living religious authority who meets all the required conditions [for emulation] and deems it permissible to start to emulate a religious authority after his death; and such a religious authority does exist. http://english.bayynat.org.lb/FAQ/FAQ_EmulationAfterDeath.htm

 

Edited November 10, 2017 by Shogun

[mesbah]

I couldn't find Sh. Jannati's fatwa on the permissibility of following a deceased Marja.

Honestly,  none of these three scholars, as respected and honored as they are, are candidates of the most knowledgeable in comparison to their contemporaries, let alone to the history of Shia scholarship.

[Sumerian]

6 hours ago, Shogun said:

Sayyed Muhammad Hussein Fadlullah (ra) doesn't say that the marja has to be the living most qualified marja? He says that all I need is a fatwa from a marja stating that he allows the following of a deceased marja. Even though most don't allow Taqlid to a deceased marja their are a few who allow it.

Thank You

Is there a way i could do taqleed on sayyed fadhlullah even though he passed away?

It is permissible to emulate the late marja’ Fadlallah after his death by going back to a fatwa of a living marja’ that deems amulating a dead marja’ right from the start including H. E. Muhammad Ibrahim Al-Jinati http://english.bayynat.org/readers_mail/   Salam. Can a beginer start by emulating late Ayatollah Fadhalullah(qs), if not، is their any living marja'i who allow his emulators to used late Fadhalullah(q.s) fatwa? A1: This is permissible by referring to the Fatwa of a living religious authority who deems starting emulation by emulating a dead religious authority permissible, such as Sheikh Muhammad Ibrahim Al-Jannati. http://english.bayynat.org.lb/readers_mail/readers16.htm   Q: Is it permissible for he who has never emulated the late Sayyed Fadlullah (ra) before his death to start to emulate him after his death? A: It is permissible for he who has not emulated His Eminence, Sayyed Fadlullah (ra), before his death to start to emulate him after his death by going back to the opinion of the living religious authority who meets all the required conditions [for emulation] and deems it permissible to start to emulate a religious authority after his death; and such a religious authority does exist. http://english.bayynat.org.lb/FAQ/FAQ_EmulationAfterDeath.htm

 

Well you can refer to Jannati, but most maraja have a'lamiyya as a condition for taqleed - if he does not have it as a conditon.

[Hameedeh]

Off-topic posts have been removed. People who do not believe in taqleed or are not Shia should not reply in Jurisprudence topics that are asking for Shia rulings from their marja.

[Guest silasun]

Bismillah

Before performing taqlid of Sayed Fadlallah, you would need to prove that the living scholar who allows taqlid of dead scholars (in this case Sh. Janati or Ayatollah Haydari) is the most knowledgeable marja' of the current time (or at least that he is of a group who are the most knowledgeable, but it is not clear who in that group is the most knowledgeable).

I don't know of any way that you can prove that those two scholars are the most knowledgeable of this time. Their needs to be a process of peer review before you can reach that conclusion. Jami al-Modarressin came up with a list of 6 who are scholars who one can follow and be relieved of their duties to God (they are the 4 I mention at the end plus Ayatollahs Gulpaygani and Zanjani).

I would suggest that you look into the following scholars who have accessible English rulings (particularly the last three, due to ease of access):

Ayatollah Waheed

Ayatollah Khamenei

Ayatollah Sistani

Ayatollah Makarem

[Shogun]

8 hours ago, silasun said:

Before performing taqlid of Sayed Fadlallah, you would need to prove that the living scholar who allows taqlid of dead scholars (in this case Sh. Janati or Ayatollah Haydari) is the most knowledgeable marja' of the current time (or at least that he is of a group who are the most knowledgeable

Why would I need to prove that the living scholar who allows taqlid of dead scholars (in this case Sh. Janati or Ayatollah Haydari) is the most knowledgeable marja' of the current time? That is not mentioned in Sayed Fadlallah rulling. All he says is I have to find someone who meets all the required conditions for emulation and deems it permissible to emulate a religious authority after his death.

Thank You

Q: Is it permissible for he who has never emulated the late Sayyed Fadlullah (ra) before his death to start to emulate him after his death?

A: It is permissible for he who has not emulated His Eminence, Sayyed Fadlullah (ra), before his death to start to emulate him after his death by going back to the opinion of the living religious authority who meets all the required conditions [for emulation] and deems it permissible to start to emulate a religious authority after his death; and such a religious authority does exist.

http://english.bayynat.org.lb/FAQ/FAQ_EmulationAfterDeath.htm

Edited November 11, 2017 by Shogun

[Sumerian]

19 hours ago, Shogun said:

 

Some scholars may not have a'lamiyya as a conditon, so if you find a scholar who doesn't, and who allows you then to follow Sayyed Fadlallah, then you are technically allowed to do taqleed to him.

But right now you are not following Sayyed Fadlallah, so it is like a person who is muqallid to no one. Once you find a marja who allows you to follow Sayyed Fadlallah, you may.

In the same fatwa you are quoting, Sayyed Fadlallah says: by going back to the opinion of the living religious authority who meets all the required conditions [for emulation] - and so a'lamiyya may be a "required condition for emulation". 

[ss99]

23 hours ago, E.L King said:

Some scholars may not have a'lamiyya as a conditon, so if you find a scholar who doesn't, and who allows you then to follow Sayyed Fadlallah, then you are technically allowed to do taqleed to him.

But right now you are not following Sayyed Fadlallah, so it is like a person who is muqallid to no one. Once you find a marja who allows you to follow Sayyed Fadlallah, you may.

In the same fatwa you are quoting, Sayyed Fadlallah says: by going back to the opinion of the living religious authority who meets all the required conditions [for emulation] - and so a'lamiyya may be a "required condition for emulation". 

Salam.

According to Ayatollah Jannaati the Mujtahid doesn't have to be the most knowledgeable, and he also allows to begin Taqlid of a deceased Marja. So he is technically allowed to emulate Sayyed Fadlallah if he initially does Taqlid of Jannaati?

[Sumerian]

4 hours ago, ss99 said:

Salam.

According to Ayatollah Jannaati the Mujtahid doesn't have to be the most knowledgeable, and he also allows to begin Taqlid of a deceased Marja. So he is technically allowed to emulate Sayyed Fadlallah if he initially does Taqlid of Jannaati?

Yes, it seems so. But does Sayyed Fadlallah also say a'lamiyya is not a condition?