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In the Name of God بسم الله
Sindbad05

Next Level of Evolution (Embarrassing infidels)

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The topic you are discussing has nothing to do with evolution of species, but differences between members of the same species. Hitler was as human as, for example, Ayatollah Khomeini.

I wrote a lengthy post, but decided to delete it. You are missing the points. I can only say I am sad that we, muslims, fathers of the scientific method, end up even discussing so poorly.

Let me give you an advice. Obey and respect knowledge, whether it is shaped or presented in a way you dislike or doesn't fit your schemes. Attaining knowledge is a religious duty, not a game.

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31 minutes ago, Bakir said:

The topic you are discussing has nothing to do with evolution of species, but differences between members of the same species. Hitler was as human as, for example, Ayatollah Khomeini.

I wrote a lengthy post, but decided to delete it. You are missing the points. I can only say I am sad that we, muslims, fathers of the scientific method, end up even discussing so poorly.

Let me give you an advice. Obey and respect knowledge, whether it is shaped or presented in a way you dislike or doesn't fit your schemes. Attaining knowledge is a religious duty, not a game.

well if you disagree, I respect your opinion, but in my opinion, I see failure of pro-evolution when they see a thing which is not the result of evolution such as Prophet Jesus a.s who got birth without a father. Secondly, cognitive abilities were counted by the evolution theory as the major development in the process that separates humans from animals and this point I grabbed to tell you that there were human beings who knew past, present and future and were much advanced which is no less telling you that God is not dependent upon evolutionary theory. 

And as for advice, I respect knowledge and that is why I am discussing it here, so your advice is already been honored by me bro. 

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A scientific theory is used to predict results. It is used to explain reality.

A miracle such as that of Jesus is precisely a miracle because it is against the very laws of nature. A man not being burnt when in touch with fire is against natural laws. These are miracles, and they are called miracles for a reason. Science doesn't study nor adapts to miracles. Evolution is a scientific term used in a scientific theory you can't put in doubt through non scientific discourse.

That's the point you are missing, again and again. It is like if I said that prophets and true shias cannot be burnt by fire because there are some traditions in which they defied laws of nature and didn't get burnt. By that narration, I would start a topic in ShiaChat (because you won't find such topics anywhere else in the internet) saying that such men have a special skin that is immune to fire.

Anyway man, I refuse to continue discussing non sense after reasonable explanations were given by several members in a formal way. If we survived the Flat Earth thread, we will survive this one.

Edited by Bakir

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On 11/5/2017 at 12:08 PM, Sindbad05 said:

I see, you mean to say that apes are no longer living right now because we apes transformed into humans to live longer ?

Now science doesn't say that we evolve from apes it says there were apes like people and both human and apes were evolved from them. But again its a science new things come and go. 

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10 hours ago, Bakir said:

A scientific theory is used to predict results. It is used to explain reality.

A miracle such as that of Jesus is precisely a miracle because it is against the very laws of nature. A man not being burnt when in touch with fire is against natural laws. These are miracles, and they are called miracles for a reason. Science doesn't study nor adapts to miracles. Evolution is a scientific term used in a scientific theory you can't put in doubt through non scientific discourse.

That's the point you are missing, again and again. It is like if I said that prophets and true shias cannot be burnt by fire because there are some traditions in which they defied laws of nature and didn't get burnt. By that narration, I would start a topic in ShiaChat (because you won't find such topics anywhere else in the internet) saying that such men have a special skin that is immune to fire.

Anyway man, I refuse to continue discussing non sense after reasonable explanations were given by several members in a formal way. If we survived the Flat Earth thread, we will survive this one.

I see that's non-sense to you, did I invite you to talk here and waste your valuable time since you are prince of your world.  Guess what, that didn't create any impression upon me except that you are too proudy to engage in a debate. SO,  talk to princes like you, and don't waste your time coming here.  Your science deals with the study of physical things but before me it encompasses every aspect whether material or spiritual and it's all encompassing study to learn the manifestation of God's authority. So, if you are feeling that you don't have answers then instead of saying anything nonsense keep calm and move away instead of showing your disappointment that you don't have answer. Thank you.

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10 hours ago, Ron_Burgundy said:

Now science doesn't say that we evolve from apes it says there were apes like people and both human and apes were evolved from them. But again its a science new things come and go. 

I know bro and that's why I am coming with things that science can't explain and show that instead of worshiping a thing that's suspicious, you must take it as a discipline and understand that it's not free from flaws and don't take everything for final.

As for 2 legged ape like animal, they should also have orginated from four legged animal and if you say it's separate creation then I ask why can't you think for Adam a s like that. And if you say they are evolved from four legged then I would say that if Allah wants He could repeal things and produce a higher intellect without letting an evolutionary process such as Jesus a.s talked in cradle and all Jews saw it but an ordinary child don't talk unless he is four.

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1 minute ago, Ibn Al-Shahid said:

Not really. Do we know how Adam (as) descended from heaven onto earth?

There is a debate on whether his Jannah was or wasn't on Earth.

Furthermore, what I meant was it contradicts Adam (as) being the father of all humankind. 

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10 hours ago, Sindbad05 said:

I know bro and that's why I am coming with things that science can't explain and show that instead of worshiping a thing that's suspicious, you must take it as a discipline and understand that it's not free from flaws and don't take everything for final.

As for 2 legged ape like animal, they should also have orginated from four legged animal and if you say it's separate creation then I ask why can't you think for Adam a s like that. And if you say they are evolved from four legged then I would say that if Allah wants He could repeal things and produce a higher intellect without letting an evolutionary process such as Jesus a.s talked in cradle and all Jews saw it but an ordinary child don't talk unless he is four.

Well since can't answer many things. we cannot be certain about anything. 

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1 hour ago, Ron_Burgundy said:

Well since can't answer many things. we cannot be certain about anything. 

Well, I am convinced about religion, however, I doubt science and therefore do not entirely believe whatever is told to me by the scientists.

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On 11/6/2017 at 10:11 PM, E.L King said:

It is problematic with the story of Adam (as).

totally agree with you. with other things, maybe. but not with human beings. From them (Prophet Adam and Hawwa), spread many men and women.

[Shakir 4:1] O people! be careful of (your duty to) your Lord, Who created you from a single being and created its mate of the same (kind) and spread from these two, many men and women; and be careful of (your duty to) Allah, by Whom you demand one of another (your rights), and (to) the ties of relationship; surely Allah ever watches over you.

 

Edited by hoskot

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On 11/6/2017 at 10:11 AM, E.L King said:

It is problematic with the story of Adam (as).

Elaborate. How is it problematic? Do you understand evolution and it's research to this day? Or are you just speaking about tidbits you read here and there? Because some of the posts here arguing against evolution aren't good enough; neither scientifically or philosophically.

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7 hours ago, Ibn Al-Shahid said:

Elaborate. How is it problematic? Do you understand evolution and it's research to this day? Or are you just speaking about tidbits you read here and there? Because some of the posts here arguing against evolution aren't good enough; neither scientifically or philosophically.

I believe I just said it contradicts the belief that Adam (as) is the father of all humankind.

Edited by E.L King

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On 11/6/2017 at 3:49 PM, Bakir said:

A scientific theory is used to predict results. It is used to explain reality.

A miracle such as that of Jesus is precisely a miracle because it is against the very laws of nature. A man not being burnt when in touch with fire is against natural laws. These are miracles, and they are called miracles for a reason. Science doesn't study nor adapts to miracles. Evolution is a scientific term used in a scientific theory you can't put in doubt through non scientific discourse.

That's the point you are missing, again and again. It is like if I said that prophets and true shias cannot be burnt by fire because there are some traditions in which they defied laws of nature and didn't get burnt. By that narration, I would start a topic in ShiaChat (because you won't find such topics anywhere else in the internet) saying that such men have a special skin that is immune to fire.

Anyway man, I refuse to continue discussing non sense after reasonable explanations were given by several members in a formal way. If we survived the Flat Earth thread, we will survive this one.

This is pretty good right here^.

Discussions of science, with regards to whether or not a theory is scientifically valid, needs to be held on scientific grounds. Otherwise the theory will be misunderstood.

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9 hours ago, iCambrian said:

This is pretty good right here^.

Discussions of science, with regards to whether or not a theory is scientifically valid, needs to be held on scientific grounds. Otherwise the theory will be misunderstood.

There are many things which are beyond the scope of providing theoretical explanations in science but they cannot be regarded out of scope of science bro. You love to read about the theories of Hawkins about what is beyond Black hole and if he says that there is another universe without evidence, you accept it or if he says that there is our past, you will accept it. But you deny Miracles whom millions of people observed through eyes such as Miracles of Jesus and existing Miracles when people are termed as dead by medical science but they sit and are living. 

It seems to be that you are biased about facts and acknowledge lie of scientist but does not acknowledge Miracles of God who astonishes humans by reversing or changing things.  

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The fact that you cannot challenge biological evolution on scientific grounds is because you are not able to (the war is already won). 

Next is the question of how you will react.

Some bury their heads in the sands of denial, and try challenging science using their unscientific opinions.

Others recognize reality and are able to progress by asking, ok, now that we are aware of it's reality, what is next?

I have nothing to gain here, fortunately. Truth, has already won.

 

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30 minutes ago, iCambrian said:

The fact that you cannot challenge biological evolution on scientific grounds is because you are not able to (the war is already won). 

Next is the question of how you will react.

Some bury their heads in the sands of denial, and try challenging science using their unscientific opinions.

Others recognize reality and are able to progress by asking, ok, now that we are aware of it's reality, what is next?

I have nothing to gain here, fortunately. Truth, has already won.

 

Well, Science is still baffled even if I tackle this question as per your demands replacing miracles with scientific observations, although science also have definition for miracles and accept that because there are many things which science cannot explain itself but say that it happened such as many dead people were declared dead by medical science and came to life. Also, many were declared to have cancer and die within some months but they lived for 40 years. So, it proves that you want to close your ears when something happens which you do not like to listen and this is not first time I know this. This is from Quran that says: "When they hear the truth they put their fingers into ears"....So, even if you deny, it will not work. 

Secondly, even on the scientific grounds theory of evolution is still a theory because there are various assumptions and not all assumptions can be taken as correct because all these assumptions contradict each other. For example:- Theory of evolution says that people came through apes right ? And there is worldly observation that Iron comes from Iron ore but what does iron change into...Iron change into corrosion and then get weak....so, I can give a theory that certain humans were turned into apes due to a disease and that is possible....So, how would you deny that ?

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On 11/6/2017 at 1:14 AM, Gaius I. Caesar said:

It doesn't work like that, evolution only deals with physical anatomy. Not moral, ethical or spiritual superiority. This is simply confirming my thoughts that you are confused.

What about mentally ill people or children who haven't or don't have developped PHISYCAL brains like our brains , they can't do morality or spirituality like us normal humans , a lot of times children can't tell whats right from wrong , obviously evolution also deals with spirituality , morality and ethics since the more the PHiSYCAL BRAIN evolved over time with species the more they became spiritually , morally and ethically aware and if thats the case , then if humans in the future have better brains than now trought microchips in brains(cyborg) or trought genetically modified human DNA(more neurons?) then doesnt that mean that the Prophets and immams were not the most perfect beings (godforbid) if Adam(عليه السلام) was chosen as the khalifa on Earth because of his intellectual capacity , then what about futute humans , they would surely be potentially  much more moral , spiritual.

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2 hours ago, HusseinAbbas said:

What about mentally ill people or children who haven't or don't have developped PHISYCAL brains like our brains ,

They have physical brains, that's not the issue. The issue is abnormal development, brain damage or an imbalance. 

Evolution is strictly in the realm of biology; For spiritual, ethical and moral "evolution", we have theology, ethics and philosophy.

3 hours ago, HusseinAbbas said:

then if humans in the future have better brains than now trought microchips in brains(cyborg) or trought genetically modified human DNA(more neurons?) then doesnt that mean that the Prophets and immams were not the most perfect beings (godforbid) if Adam(عليه السلام) was chosen as the khalifa on Earth because of his intellectual capacity , then what about futute humans , they would surely be potentially  much more moral , spiritual.

That's not evolution, that sounds more like the idea of transhumanism, which is purely theoretical. But as you said, a transhuman could be much more spiritual and moral than the average human and that would definitely clash against the ismah of the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام).

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15 minutes ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

They have physical brains, that's not the issue. The issue is abnormal development, brain damage or an imbalance. 

Evolution is strictly in the realm of biology; For spiritual, ethical and moral "evolution", we have theology, ethics and philosophy.

That's not evolution, that sounds more like the idea of transhumanism, which is purely theoretical. But as you said, a transhuman could be much more spiritual and moral than the average human and that would definitely clash against the ismah of the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام).

one way of countering this is that the Ahlul Bayt(عليه السلام) surely mustve had better brains , I mean they had the knowlege of the unseen and the seen all at once and they gave the best answers to questions , with the will of Allah(stw) they mustve had powerfull minds the same way as Prophets(عليه السلام) were given miracles by Allah(stw) will so as far as transhumans are comcerned , they can be as much intelligent as they can , they would never reach the level of the Ahlul Bayt(عليه السلام) , since they would never have all the knowlege of the seen and unseen and etc... 

 

Also thanks for the reply

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8 hours ago, HusseinAbbas said:

one way of countering this is that the Ahlul Bayt(عليه السلام) surely mustve had better brains , I mean they had the knowlege of the unseen and the seen all at once and they gave the best answers to questions , with the will of Allah(stw) they mustve had powerfull minds the same way as Prophets(عليه السلام) were given miracles by Allah(stw)

There's really nothing to counter, brother. You think you're arguing evolution but you're actually arguing ethics, eugenics and transhumanism all in one paragraph and calling it "evolution", kind of a mess.

The knowledge that Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) cannot be replicated by science, because it's an metaphysical knowledge  from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Physical sciences including biology are concerned with data that can be measured, tested and replicated.

As far as transhumans are concerned, they may be physically stronger or mentally sharper than the average human but there's no guarantee that they would be more moral than us, let alone, the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام)

If their knowledge and ismah could be measured and replicated, they wouldn't be infallible and it wouldn't be from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) so, I agree with you there.

They were especially blessed but to assert that they were mentally or physically better than us is going into ghuluw territory. It was a spiritual superiority they possessed.

And yes, you're welcome.

Edited by Gaius I. Caesar

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16 hours ago, HusseinAbbas said:

, obviously evolution also deals with spirituality , morality and ethics since the more the PHiSYCAL BRAIN evolved over time with species the more they became spiritually , morally and ethically aware and if thats the case ,

Salam there are many people that with developed physical brain are not spiritual & don't follow moral codes & ethics

 

16 hours ago, HusseinAbbas said:

, then if humans in the future have better brains than now trought microchips in brains(cyborg) or trought genetically modified human DNA(more neurons?) then doesnt that mean that the Prophets and immams were not the most perfect beings (godforbid) if Adam(عليه السلام) was chosen as the khalifa on Earth because of his intellectual capacity , then what about futute humans , they would surely be potentially  much more moral , spiritual.

based on narration about Imam Mahdi (aj) he will give strebngth of 40 men & unlocks  complete  brain power of his loyal  follower & after conquering Earth all people will benefit from complete knowledge & there will be no disease & we will saw long life and death will be rare between all people & current effort for evolving humans from our current development science won't be comparable with our development after age of reappearance.

https://www.al-Islam.org/perfect-man-ayatullah-murtadha-mutahhari

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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1 hour ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam there are many people that with developed physical brain are not spiritual & don't follow moral codes & ethics

 

based on narration about Imam Mahdi (aj) he will give strebngth of 40 men & unlocks  complete  brain power of his loyal  follower & after conquering Earth all people will benefit from complete knowledge & there will be no disease & we will saw long life and death will be rare between all people & current effort for evolving humans from our current development science won't be comparable with our development after age of reappearance.

https://www.al-Islam.org/perfect-man-ayatullah-murtadha-mutahhari

thats the hadith I was searching for thanks for putting it up

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