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Muslim2010

Hadith Rejectors - Muslim, Hypocrites, etc

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2 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

command from us

Indeed We are sending *******

Surah Ad-Dukhan, Verse 5:
أَمْرًا مِّنْ عِندِنَا إِنَّا كُنَّا مُرْسِلِينَ

A command from Us; surely We are the senders (of apostles),
(English - Shakir)

7 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

It begins by saying by the " Book , the clear !"  Like your translation I see that as swearing by it.

Indeed we revealed it on a blessed night (can mean parts or all of it)

It is very simple brother.

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is swearing by the Book which is mubeen (clear) and categorically saying that "indeed We have revealed "IT" (the whole book which is clear and in which every affair is made distinct).

I am focusing on "IT" (the hu in anzalnahu pointing towards the whole book), same is the case with the verse of Qadr.

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5 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

Indeed we are sending" indicates  present tense not past tense (sent).

Can Mursaleen denote scripture?  Or is there any verse which says "inna arsalnaho" for revelation?

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36 minutes ago, Cool said:

Surah Ad-Dukhan, Verse 5:
أَمْرًا مِّنْ عِندِنَا إِنَّا كُنَّا مُرْسِلِينَ

A command from Us; surely We are the senders (of apostles),
(English - Shakir)

It is very simple brother.

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is swearing by the Book which is mubeen (clear) and categorically saying that "indeed We have revealed "IT" (the whole book which is clear and in which every affair is made distinct).

I am focusing on "IT" (the hu in anzalnahu pointing towards the whole book), same is the case with the verse of Qadr.

We have subtle but different interpretations.

A command from us we are the senders (of the book not apostles in my interpretation )

But...  I don't know if "it" necesarily means whole book.  If someone recites or is reciting a verse,  it's appropriate to say they are reciting Qur'an, it is also appropriate to say  theyre rwitig a specific chapter of Qur'an.. you know what I mean ?

Well either way I'm open to it meaning it could have been the whole book.  But I stand by that if that was the case... the Prophet did not memorize or absorb it all that night.

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36 minutes ago, Cool said:

Can Mursaleen denote scripture?  Or is there any verse which says "inna arsalnaho" for revelation?

77:1 doesn't send messengers in a gust?  

I'm not sure if the question is relevant unless there is only ever one consistent use for these words for objects 

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6 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

command from us we are the senders (of the book not apostles in my interpretation )

وَما أَرْسَلْنَا قَبْلَكَ مِنَ الْمُرْسَلِينَ إِلَّا إِنَّهُمْ لَيَأْكُلُونَ الطَّعَامَ وَيَمْشُونَ فِي الْأَسْوَاقِ وَجَعَلْنَا بَعْضَكُمْ لِبَعْضٍ فِتْنَةً أَتَصْبِرُونَ وَكَانَ رَبُّكَ بَصِيرًا

25:20

فَفَرَرْتُ مِنكُمْ لَمَّا خِفْتُكُمْ فَوَهَبَ لِي رَبِّي حُكْمًا وَجَعَلَنِي مِنَ الْمُرْسَلِينَ

26:21

إِنَّكَ لَمِنَ الْمُرْسَلِينَ

36:3

And in last, the following verse:

وَلَكِنَّا أَنشَأْنَا قُرُونًا فَتَطَاوَلَ عَلَيْهِمُ الْعُمُرُ وَمَا كُنتَ ثَاوِيًا فِي أَهْلِ مَدْيَنَ تَتْلُو عَلَيْهِمْ آيَاتِنَا وَلَكِنَّا كُنَّا مُرْسِلِينَ

28:45

God send His message through messengers (some times but not always) to messengers (always in case of scripture).

Grammatically, the word anzaal and tanzeel has been used for Qur'an denoting its coming down. 

6 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

But...  I don't know if "it" necesarily means whole book.  If someone recites or is reciting a verse,  it's appropriate to say they are reciting Qur'an, it is also appropriate to say  theyre rwitig a specific chapter of Qur'an.. you know what I mean ?

Yes, a verse can be called book and the whole book too.

What I am considering is its journey from its pre-revealed existence I.e., from lowhin mehfooz or from kitabin maknoon, the area where even the angels don't have the access.

That is the reason majority of Sunni & Shia believe that Qur'an is revealed in two stages. One is full & complete (inzaal), the other is in parts (tanzeel).

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6 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

77:1 doesn't send messengers in a gust?  

I'm not sure if the question is relevant unless there is only ever one consistent use for these words for objects 

It doesn't either mentioning the nature of the message. Every message of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to his Apostle is not necessarily a part of Qur'an. 

Second point is "allama" (teaching) of Qur'an which is different from its sending. And this "allama" can be understood from different verses of Qur'an, for instance:

Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 31:
وَعَلَّمَ آدَمَ الْأَسْمَاءَ كُلَّهَا ثُمَّ عَرَضَهُمْ عَلَى الْمَلَائِكَةِ فَقَالَ أَنبِئُونِي بِأَسْمَاءِ هَٰؤُلَاءِ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ

And He taught Adam all the names, then presented them to the angels; then He said: Tell me the names of those if you are right.
(English - Shakir)

Irrespective of all this, if you ask me, what is Qur'an, I will say Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) , Ali (عليه السلام), Fatima (عليه السلام), Hassan (عليه السلام), Hussain (عليه السلام) and Imams from his progeny (peace & blessings of Allah be upon them). For each one of them is a natiq Qur'an within himself.

Edited by Cool

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15 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

there is also

إِنَّا نَحْنُ نَزَّلْنَا عَلَيْكَ الْقُرْآنَ تَنزِيلًا - 76:23

Indeed, it is We who have sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Qur'an progressively.

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6 hours ago, Cool said:

That is the reason majority of Sunni & Shia believe that Qur'an is revealed in two stages. One is full & complete (inzaal), the other is in parts (tanzeel).

I don't think that's accurate. So, I just confirmed with a colleague who is an aalima in the Hanafi madhab [who I think are the majority]. They only believe in the progressive revelation to the Prophet.

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@Ashvazdanghe - Why are you laughing at verses of the Qur'an? I have noticed the laughing emoji being used when no response can be given. But what you're actually doing [and this is the 2nd time] is mocking the verses of the Qur'an which would be an act of kuffar. Calm yourself brother and perhaps refrain from participating in these type of threads if the heat is too much to handle...

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Just now, Jaane Rabb said:

@Ashvazdanghe - Why are you laughing at verses of the Qur'an? I have noticed the laughing emoji being used when no response can be given. But what you're actually doing [and this is the 2nd time] is mocking the verses of the Qur'an which would be an act of kuffar. Calm yourself brother and perhaps refrain from participating in these type of threads if the heat is too much to handle...

you useverses of Qur'an to spread falshood of Sufis & wahabists that Qur'an says their Namaz &recitation is just clapping hands & whistling but they think they are worshiping using Qur'an verses like you just deserves laughing .:D

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2 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

you useverses of Qur'an to spread falshood of Sufis & wahabists that Qur'an says their Namaz &recitation is just clapping hands & whistling but they think they are worshiping using Qur'an verses like you just deserves laughing .:D

So please enlighten me as to what 76:23 means?

And also 25:32 which was the other verse you laughed at.

It's amazing that clear verses from the Qur'an is making you think the wahabbi ideology is being propagated. Is that how much you have abandoned the Qur'an? [25:30]

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1 hour ago, Jaane Rabb said:

إِنَّا نَحْنُ نَزَّلْنَا عَلَيْكَ الْقُرْآنَ تَنزِيلًا - 76:23

Indeed, it is We who have sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Qur'an progressively.

It is these very two types which are mentioned in this blessed verse , one is "inzal" & other is "tanzil". 
 

1 hour ago, Jaane Rabb said:

. So, I just confirmed with a colleague who is an aalima in the Hanafi madhab [who I think are the majority]. They only believe in the progressive revelation to the Prophet.

Since when Hanafi's have start rejecting their sahih ahadith? 

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55 minutes ago, Jaane Rabb said:

So please enlighten me as to what 76:23 means?

And also 25:32 which was the other verse you laughed at.

It's amazing that clear verses from the Qur'an is making you think the wahabbi ideology is being propagated. Is that how much you have abandoned the Qur'an? [25:30]

its you that are spreading wahabi ideology by wron using of verses of holy Qur'an

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7 hours ago, Cool said:

Second point is "allama" (teaching) of Qur'an which is different from its sending. And this "allama" can be understood from different verses of Qur'an, for instance:

Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 31:
وَعَلَّمَ آدَمَ الْأَسْمَاءَ كُلَّهَا ثُمَّ عَرَضَهُمْ عَلَى الْمَلَائِكَةِ فَقَالَ أَنبِئُونِي بِأَسْمَاءِ هَٰؤُلَاءِ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ

And He taught Adam all the names, then presented them to the angels; then He said: Tell me the names of those if you are right.
(English - Shakir)

This is a very valid point, keeping in view the first two verses of Chapter 55

الرَّحْمَٰنُ عَلَّمَ الْقُرْآنَ

and the same is repeated in the chapter 53 

عَلَّمَهُ شَدِيدُ الْقُوَىٰ

The way our brothers are viewing the verses imply that the angel Gabriel is the teacher of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) 

So one may ask them who taught the names to Prophet Adam (عليه السلام)? 
And one may ask them whom Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) taught the Qur'an? To Gabriel or to Prophet? 

In the night of Isra, we have seen the limits of Gabriel. He was unable to pass beyond his limits and it was only the Prophet who went through to the level of "Qaba Qowsayn Aw Adna". And the "Aw Adna" here mentions his limitless nearness to God Almighty. Through this we understand the verse of Chapter Al-Waqia where Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has mentioned that Qur'an is in the preserved book and none have access to it except the Mutahharoon ( means the holy Prophet s,a,w & his holy progeny (عليه السلام)) 

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A part from the discussion of "inzaal" & "tanzeel", there is another way by which Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) grants the knowledge of Qur'an. Here are the verses:

وَإِنَّكَ لَتُلَقَّى الْقُرْآنَ مِن لَّدُنْ حَكِيمٍ عَلِيمٍ
27:4 

إِنَّا سَنُلْقِي عَلَيْكَ قَوْلًا ثَقِيلًا
73:5
 

Quote

وَإِنَّكَ لَتُلَقَّى الْقُرْآنَ مِن لَّدُنْ حَكِيمٍ عَلِيمٍ

This verse has reminded me the 65th verse of Chapter 18. Where Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has mentioned:

فَوَجَدَا عَبْدًا مِنْ عِبَادِنَا آتَيْنَاهُ رَحْمَةً مِنْ عِنْدِنَا وَعَلَّمْنَاهُ مِنْ لَدُنَّا عِلْمًا {65}

[Shakir 18:65] Then they found one from among Our servants whom We had granted mercy from Us and whom We had taught knowledge from Ourselves.
[Pickthal 18:65] Then found they one of Our slaves, unto whom We had given mercy from Us, and had taught him knowledge from Our presence.
[Yusufali 18:65] So they found one of Our servants, on whom We had bestowed Mercy from Ourselves and whom We had taught knowledge from Our own Presence.

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