Hadith Rejectors - Muslim, Hypocrites, etc

[Cool 211]

1 hour ago, Jaane Rabb said:

Fail to see how this verse proves the Prophet (S) had complete knowledge of the Book. The bold part is actually very profound if one gives it much thought.

Perhaps that's why he told you to follow Allah 

1 hour ago, Jaane Rabb said:

Doesn't mean he had complete knowledge either. The Prophet taught as and when he received revelation via Gibrael and/or inspiration.

Actually Gabrael taught Qur'an to Prophet, he also take out his heart, cleansed it thoroughly and place it back to its place.

 

[Muslim2010 2,875]

6 hours ago, Jaane Rabb said:

Tabatabai also disagrees with your interpretation:

I have already mentioned my view for conclusion earlier in this thread link is given below:

The following hadith provide the interpretation that Imams of Ahl alabayt as are those who are firmly grounded in knowledge:

Vol 1, Chapter 22, Al kafi by Sheikh Saduq:

The People Well-grounded in Knowledge are the Imams ((عليه السلام).) alone (and they have the knowdge of the Qur'an and its verses)

H 554, Ch. 22, h 1
A number of our people has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad from al-Husayn ibn Sa‘id from an-Nadr ibn Suwayd from Ayyub ibn Hurr and ‘Imran ibn Ali from Abu Basir from Abu ‘Abdallah ((عليه السلام).) who has said the following. "We are the people well-grounded in knowledge and we are the ones who know how to interpret it."

H 555, Ch. 22, h 2
Ali ibn Muhammad has narrated from ‘Abdallah ibn Ali from Ibrahim ibn Ishaq from ‘Adallah ibn Hammad from Burayd ibn Mu‘awiya who has narrated the following from either one of the Imams ((عليه السلام).) about the words of Allah, Allah, the Most Majestic, the Most gracious. "No one knows its true interpretations except God and those who have a firm grounding in knowledge . . ." (3:7). The Holy Prophet is the best among the people wellgrounded in knowledge. Allah, the Most Majestic, the Most gracious, taught him all that He had revealed to him in the form of original text and in the form of interpretations. Allah, the Most Majestic, the Most gracious, would not reveal anything to him that he would not know the meaning thereof. The successors of the Holy Prophet (s.a.) after him knew all revelations. As for those who do not know the interpretations thereof, when the scholar speaks to them with knowledge, they say, "We believe in it, for all of this is from our Lord." The Holy Qur'an consists of specific, general, clear, not so clear, abrogating and abrogated statements. The people who are well-grounded in knowledge know all of the Holy Qur'an."

wasalam

[Jaane Rabb 209]

48 minutes ago, Cool said:

Actually Gabrael taught Qur'an to Prophet, he also take out his heart, cleansed it thoroughly and place it back to its place.

I hope you find these as funny: [From Shi'I sources]

 

علي بن إبراهيم ، عن أبيه ، عن ابن أسباط ومحمد بن أحمد ، عن موسى بن القاسم البجلي ، عن علي بن أسباط قال قلت لأبي الحسن الرضا عليه‌السلام جعلت فداك ما ترى آخذ برا أو بحرا فإن طريقنا مخوف شديد الخطر فقال اخرج برا ولا عليك أن تأتي مسجد رسول الله صلى‌الله‌عليه‌وآله وتصلي ركعتين في غير وقت فريضة ثم لتستخير الله مائة مرة ومرة ثم تنظر فإن عزم الله لك على البحر فقل الذي قال الله عز وجل «وَقالَ ارْكَبُوا فِيها بِسْمِ اللهِ مَجْراها وَمُرْساها إِنَّ رَبِّي لَغَفُورٌ رَحِيمٌ» فإن اضطرب بك البحر فاتك على جانبك الأيمن وقل بسم الله اسكن بسكينة الله وقر بوقار الله واهدأ بإذن الله ولا حول ولا قوة إلا بالله قلنا أصلحك الله ما السكينة ريح تخرج من الجنة لها صورة كصورة الإنسان ـ ورائحة طيبة وهي التي نزلت على إبراهيم فأقبلت تدور حول أركان البيت وهو يضع الأساطين قيل له هي من التي قال الله عز وجل : «فِيهِ سَكِينَةٌ مِنْ رَبِّكُمْ وَبَقِيَّةٌ مِمَّا تَرَكَ آلُ مُوسى وَآلُ هارُونَ» قال تلك السكينة في التابوت وكانت فيه طشت تغسل فيها قلوب الأنبياء وكان التابوت يدور في بني إسرائيل مع الأنبياء ثم أقبل علينا فقال ما تابوتكم قلنا السلاح قال صدقتم هو تابوتكم وإن خرجت برا فقل الذي قال الله عز وجل «سُبْحانَ الَّذِي سَخَّرَ لَنا هذا وَما كُنَّا لَهُ مُقْرِنِينَ. وَإِنَّا إِلى رَبِّنا لَمُنْقَلِبُونَ» فإنه ليس من عبد يقولها عند ركوبه فيقع من بعير أو دابة فيصيبه شيء بإذن الله ثم قال فإذا خرجت من منزلك فقل بسم الله آمنت بالله توكلت على الله لا حول ولا قوة إلا بالله ـ فإن الملائكة تضرب وجوه الشياطين ويقولون قد سمى الله وآمن بالله وتوكل على الله وقال لا حول ولا قوة إلا بالله

5. Ali b. Ibrahim from his father (Ibrahim b. Hashim) from Ibn Asbat AND Muhammad b. Ahmad from Musa b. al-Qasim al-Bajali from Ali b. Asbat who said:

I said to Abi al-Hasan al-Ridha عليه السلام: may I be made your ransom - should I go by way of land or sea - for our journey is fearful and very dangerous?

So he said: go out by way of land - and there is nothing upon you (no harm upon you) that you go to the Masjid of the messenger of Allah and pray a two unit prayer in other than the time of the obligatory prayer, then you supplicate to Allah for the best option a hundred and one times, then you observe - so if Allah decides the sea for you (by casting this decision into your heart) then say what Allah the Mighty and Majestic said: “And say: embark upon it - in the name of Allah be its sailing and anchoring - verily my Lord is most forgiving the merciful” (11:41), so if the sea is tumultuous then take support (lean) on your right side and say: “in the name of Allah - be tranquil by the tranquility of Allah and be calm by the calmness of Allah and be aright (quiet down) by the will of Allah - and there is no strength nor power save by Allah”.

We said: may Allah grant you prosperity - what is the Sakina?

He said: a wind that comes from paradise - it has a face like the face of a man and good fragrance, and it is the one which descended upon Ibrahim so it began revolving around the pillars of the House (Ka’ba) while he was setting up the beams .

It was said to him: is it the one about which Allah the Mighty and Majestic said: “In it - a Sakina - from your lord and remnants [relics] from that which was left by the family of Musa and the family of Harun” (2:248)?

He said: that is the Sakina of the ark (of the covenant), and in it (I.e. the ark) was a basin in which was washed the hearts of the Prophets, and the ark used to move around in Bani Israil only among the Prophets.

Then he turned to us and said: what is your ark?

We said: the weapons (of the messenger of Allah)

He said: you have spoken the truth - it is your ark.

And if you go by way of land [on the back of an animal] then say that which was said by Allah the Mighty and Majestic: “Praised be the one who has made this submissive to us and we could not have otherwise subdued it and to our lord are we to return” (43:13) for there is not a slave who says it whence he climbs on (and begins a journey) and then goes on to fall off his camel or animal and gets hurt - by the will of Allah.

Then he said: and when you leave your house say: “In the name of Allah, I have believed in Allah, I have depended on Allah, there is no strength nor power save by Allah” for the angels beat the faces of the devils and they say: he (the man) has named Allah, and believed in Allah, and depended upon Allah, and said: there is no strength nor power save by Allah. (Muwathaq - Translated by Islamic Salvation)

Source:
al-Kulayni, al-Kafi, vol. 3, pg. 471-472, hadith # 5
 

 

ثُمَّ إِنَّ جَبْرَائِيلَ ع أَلْقَى رَسُولَ اللَّهِ ص عَلَى قَفَاهُ وَ رَفَعَ أَثْوَابَهُ فَقَالَ لَهُ النَّبِيُّ ص مَا تُرِيدُ تَصْنَعُ يَا أَخِي جَبْرَائِيلُ فَقَالَ جَبْرَائِيلُ لَا بَأْسَ عَلَيْكَ فَأَخْرَجَ جَنَاحَهُ‏ «3» وَ شَقَّ بَطْنَ النَّبِيِّ ص وَ أَدْخَلَ جَنَاحَهُ فِي بَطْنِهِ وَ خَرَقَ قَلْبَهُ‏ وَ شَقَّ المقلبة وَ أَظْهَرَ نُكْتَةً سَوْدَاءَ فَأَخَذَهَا جَبْرَائِيلُ ع فَغَسَلَهَا وَ مِيكَائِيلُ يَصُبُّ الْمَاءَ عَلَيْهِ فَنَادَى مُنَادٍ مِنَ السَّمَاءِ يَقُولُ يَا جَبْرَائِيلُ لَا تَقْشِرْ قَلْبَ‏ مُحَمَّدٍ ص فَتُوجِعَهُ وَ لَكِنِ اغْسِلْهُ بِزَغَبِكَ وَ الزَّغَبُ هُوَ الرِّيشُ الَّذِي تَحْتَ الْجَنَاحِ فَأَخَذَ جَبْرَئِيلُ زَغَبَةً وَ غَسَلَ بِهَا قَلْبَ‏ مُحَمَّدٍ ص ثُمَّ رَدَّ المقلبة إِلَى الْقَلْبِ‏ وَ الْقَلْبَ‏ إِلَى الصَّدْرِ

Then Jibra'eel met the Messenger of Allah, and he stopped him and lifted his ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) shirt. The Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) said to him (Jibra'eel), 'What are you intending to do, O my brother Jibra'eel?' Jibra'eel said: 'There is no problem upon you, and he took his win and split the chest of the Prophet, and he (Jibra'eel) entered his wing in his ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) chest, and penetrating his ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) heart, split it and turned it (?) and it revealed a black spot, so he (Jibra'eel) took it and washed it, and Mika'eel was pouring water on it, then a call from a caller in the heavens says: 'O Jibra'eel, do not peel the heart of Muhammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)), for it pains him,but wash it with your fluffy (feathers), the fluffy (feathers) is the feather which is under the wing. So Jibra'eel took the fluffy (feathers) and he washed with it the heart of Muhammad, then returned turn (?) to the heart and the Earth to the chest

Source:
Ibn Shaadhaan al-Qummi, Fadaa'il (Qom: Radi Publications, 1405), pg. 34

al-Majlisi, Bihaar al-Anwar, vol. 15, ch. 4, hadith # 13, pg. 356
 

 

وَ مَعَهُ طَسْتٌ مِنْ ذَهَبٍ مَضْرُوبٍ مِنْ زُمُرُّدٍ وَ مُشْطٌ مِنْ ذَهَبٍ فَشَقَّ بَطْنَهُ شَقّاً ثُمَّ أَخْرَجَ قَلْبَهُ فَشَقَّهُ فَأَخْرَجَ مِنْهُ نُكْتَةً سَوْدَاءَ فَرَمَى بِهَا

And with him (Jibra’eel) was a tray of gold and it was studded with emeralds, and (he had) a comb of gold. So he (Jibra’eel) split his chest, then he took his heart and split it and took out from it a black spot, and he casted it out

Source:
al-Saduq, al-Amali, majlis #45, pg. 264, hadith # 2

al-Saduq, Kamal al-Deen, vol. 1, ch. 12, pg. 176, hadith # 33

 

[Jaane Rabb 209]

29 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

I have already mentioned my view for conclusion earlier in this thread link is given below

Thank you. There is nothing else for us to discuss then. Your evidences from hadith are not hujjah upon me. They are obviously the reason why you interpret the verses as you do. I would implore you to look into your interpretation of 3:7 in your own time, inshaAllah.

May Allah guide us all.

Fi Amanillah

[Cool 211]

9 hours ago, Jaane Rabb said:

hope you find these as funny: [From Shi'I sources]

Irrespective of "source" whether Sunni or shi'I, anything ridiculous remains ridiculous. 

Sad thing for me is that people have such questions to ask from these blessed personalities who are the door of madinatul ilm

Quote

should I go by way of land or sea - for our journey is fearful and very dangerous?

 

[Jaane Rabb 209]

4 hours ago, Cool said:

Irrespective of "source" whether Sunni or shi'I, anything ridiculous remains ridiculous.

Right? But according to the Shi'I hadith science some of these are authentic! And so instead you reject on the basis of matn. That's when your religion becomes a case of cherry picking what you like and tucking away the weird n wacky (and authenticate) hadith. Picking and choosing is not religion for me.

Imagine the story of Yunus being swallowed up by a whale was in hadith instead of Qur'an. How many of us would find that ridiculous? Alhamdulillah, it's in the Qur'an and none can deny the verses regardless of ridiculousness. That's the difference between hadith and Qur'an my friend. One gives doubt [and a good laugh] while the other gives certainty no matter the content.

[These sources also demonstrate that the Shia should instead concentrate on what's in their books rather than ridicule things in other sects.]

Fi Amanillah

[Logic1234 250]

16 hours ago, Jaane Rabb said:

Fail to see how this verse proves the Prophet (S) had complete knowledge of the Book. The bold part is actually very profound if one gives it much thought...

 

Salamun Alaikum, 

That verse was not quoted to prove the knowledge of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), but it can be used to describe the source of knowledge of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). 

 

16 hours ago, Jaane Rabb said:

10:35: Say, "Are there of your 'partners' any who guides to the truth?" Say, "Allah guides to the truth. So is He who guides to the truth more worthy to be followed or he who guides not unless he is guided? Then what is [wrong] with you - how do you judge?"

* Say, "Allah guides to the truth (haqq).

Would you please tell me what is that "Haqq" towards which Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) guide? He Himself is Al-Haqq. 

* So is He who guides to the truth (haqq) more worthy to be followed

Can you tell me how can anyone "follow" (do itteba' of) Allah? 

فَتَوَكَّلْ عَلَى اللَّهِ ۖ إِنَّكَ عَلَى الْحَقِّ الْمُبِينِ 
27:79

* or he who guides not unless he is guided?

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is absolute guide (Al-Hadi), no doubt about it. But how actually He guides? Is there any system of guidance in place? If yes, what is that & what are its components? 

One component of that divine system of guidance is Prophethood. His chosen ones/guided ones do the job and Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) command us to "follow" (do itteba' of) them. And therefore we see verses in Qur'an where Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) says:
وَإِنَّكَ لَتَدْعُوهُمْ إِلَى صِرَاطٍ مُّسْتَقِيمٍ
23:73

وَإِنَّكَ لَتَهْدِي إِلَى صِرَاطٍ مُّسْتَقِيمٍ
42:52

Not only Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) call us & guide us towards Sirat Al-Mustaqeem, but he himself is upon the same as mentioned in chapter 36 "innaka la min al-mursaleem, ala siratin mustaqeem"

Now lets back to the topic, whether Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) possess the knowledge of the book (I.e., Qur'an) or not? Yes of course he do possess the complete knowledge of the book. Otherwise there would be contradictions everywhere and I do mention few here:
 
*A teacher appointed by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) who don't have the complete knowledge of the verses which he recites.  
*A guide who is not fully guided by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), yet He has commanded us to do the itteba' of that person who is not perfectly guided and still in need of guidance specifically about the book which was revealed on his heart.

fama lakum kaifa tahkumoon? 

Edited September 17 by Logic1234

[Ashvazdanghe 6,147]

15 hours ago, Jaane Rabb said:

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ثَنَا شَيْبَانُ بْنُ فَرُّوخَ، حَدَّثَنَا حَمَّادُ بْنُ سَلَمَةَ، حَدَّثَنَا ثَابِتٌ الْبُنَانِيُّ، عَنْ أَنَسِ بْنِ مَالِكٍ، أَنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم أَتَاهُ جِبْرِيلُ صلى الله عليه وسلم وَهُوَ يَلْعَبُ مَعَ الْغِلْمَانِ فَأَخَذَهُ فَصَرَعَهُ فَشَقَّ عَنْ قَلْبِهِ فَاسْتَخْرَجَ الْقَلْبَ فَاسْتَخْرَجَ مِنْهُ عَلَقَةً فَقَالَ هَذَا حَظُّ الشَّيْطَانِ مِنْكَ ‏.‏ ثُمَّ غَسَلَهُ فِي طَسْتٍ مِنْ ذَهَبٍ بِمَاءِ زَمْزَمَ ثُمَّ لأَمَهُ ثُمَّ أَعَادَهُ فِي مَكَانِهِ وَجَاءَ الْغِلْمَانُ يَسْعَوْنَ إِلَى أُمِّهِ - يَعْنِي ظِئْرَهُ - فَقَالُوا إِنَّ مُحَمَّدًا قَدْ قُتِلَ ‏.‏ فَاسْتَقْبَلُوهُ وَهُوَ مُنْتَقَعُ اللَّوْنِ ‏.‏ قَالَ أَنَسٌ وَقَدْ كُنْتُ أَرَى أَثَرَ ذَلِكَ الْمِخْيَطِ فِي صَدْرِهِ ‏.‏

Anas b. Malik reported that Gabriel came to the Messenger of Allah (s) while he was playing with his playmates. He took hold of him and lay him prostrate on the ground and tore open his breast and took out the heart from it and then extracted a blood-clot out of it and said: That was the part of Satan in thee. And then he washed it with the water of Zamzam in a golden basin and then it was joined together and restored to it place. The boys came running to his mother, I. e. his nurse, and said: Verily Muhammad has been murdered. They all rushed toward him (and found him all right) His color was changed, Anas said. I myself saw the marks of needle on his breast. SAHIH Muslim, 162

and here is another hadith:

حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ الْمُثَنَّى، حَدَّثَنَا ابْنُ أَبِي عَدِيٍّ، عَنْ سَعِيدٍ، عَنْ قَتَادَةَ، عَنْ أَنَسِ بْنِ مَالِكٍ، - لَعَلَّهُ قَالَ - عَنْ مَالِكِ بْنِ صَعْصَعَةَ، - رَجُلٌ مِنْ قَوْمِهِ - قَالَ قَالَ نَبِيُّ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏"‏ بَيْنَا أَنَا عِنْدَ الْبَيْتِ بَيْنَ النَّائِمِ وَالْيَقْظَانِ إِذْ سَمِعْتُ قَائِلاً يَقُولُ أَحَدُ الثَّلاَثَةِ بَيْنَ الرَّجُلَيْنِ ‏.‏ فَأُتِيتُ فَانْطُلِقَ بِي فَأُتِيتُ بِطَسْتٍ مِنْ ذَهَبٍ فِيهَا مِنْ مَاءِ زَمْزَمَ فَشُرِحَ صَدْرِي إِلَى كَذَا وَكَذَا ‏"‏ ‏.‏ قَالَ قَتَادَةُ فَقُلْتُ لِلَّذِي مَعِي مَا يَعْنِي قَالَ إِلَى أَسْفَلِ بَطْنِهِ ‏"‏ فَاسْتُخْرِجَ قَلْبِي فَغُسِلَ بِمَاءِ زَمْزَمَ ثُمَّ أُعِيدَ مَكَانَهُ ثُمَّ حُشِيَ إِيمَانًا وَحِكْمَةً ثُمَّ أُتِيتُ بِدَابَّةٍ أَبْيَضَ يُقَالُ لَهُ الْبُرَاقُ

The Prophet of Allah (s) said: I was near the House (I. e. Ka'bah) in a state between sleep and wakefulness when I heard someone say: He is the third among the two persons. Then he came to me and took me with him. Then a golden basin containing the water of Zamzam was brought to me and my heart was opened up to such and such (part). Qatada said: I asked him who was with me (I e. the narrator) and what he meant by such and such (part). He replied: (It means that it was opened) up to the lower part of his abdomen (Then the hadith continues): My heart was extracted and it was washed with the water of Zamzam and then it was restored in its original position, after which it was filled with faith and wisdom. I was then brought a white beast which is called al-Buraq. SAHIH Muslim, 164

Ibn Hajar said in Fath al-Bari (7/204): 

Edited October 30, 2016 by goldenhawk

verification of removing black dot from heart of Prophet by Islamqa

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The above two hadith address the Prophet saww cleaning of heart.

The obvious question is that if the Prophet 's heart was cleaned by removing the black spot, then why Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) sent the verse of purification? (last part 33:33) announcing Thy will to keep the Prophet Muhammad saww and his Ahl allbayat As clean by keeping the rijs away?

Do we find any such cleaning for the Ahl albayat ie progeny of the Prophet Muhammad saww? Since they all were covered under the cloak when the verse of purification was revealed.

The answer is no so making it clear that such hadith are contradictory to the verse of purification and thus are unreliable. 

wasalam

Edited November 4, 2016 by skamran110

Quote

'Allamah Tabatabaee accepts the incident (in 2 places of his al-Mizan), but considers it to be a witnessing the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) did in a state of mithal (in a dream from what I understand), rather than the event occurring in a material external reality.

 

و الذي وقع فيه من شق بطن النبي (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) و غسله و إنقائه ثم حشوه إيمانا و حكمة حال مثالية شاهدها و ليس بالأمر المادي كما ربما يزعم

 

Source: Al-Mizan, Verse 1 of Surah al-Isra'.

 

و القصة على أي حال من قبيل التمثل بلا إشكال

 

Source: Al-Mizan, Surah al-Sharh.

 

A slightly different explanation can be read in Tafsir-e Nemuna (compiled by Ayatullah Makarem Shirazi and a team of scholars) under Surah al-Sharh (although he says this verse doesn't have anything to do with this verse). He says that this did not happen physically rather the meaning is allegorical. Nevertheless, even this Tafsir does not reject the incident it self.

 

در اينجا بعضى گفته‏اند كه منظور از شرح صدر همان حادثه‏اى است كه در طفوليت يا جوانى پيغمبر ص واقع شد كه فرشتگان آسمان آمدند و سينه او را شكافتند و قلبش را بيرون آورده شستشو دادند، و آن را از علم و دانش و رأفت و رحمت پر كردند. بديهى است كه منظور از اين حديث اين قلب جسمانى نيست، بلكه كنايه و اشاره‏اى است به امدادهاى الهى از نظر روحى و تقويت عزم و اراده پيغمبر و پاكسازى او از هر گونه نقايص اخلاقى و وسوسه‏هاى شيطانى. ولى به هر حال دليلى نداريم كه آيه مورد بحث اشاره به خصوص اين ماجرا باشد، بلكه مفهومى گسترده و وسيع دارد كه اين داستان ممكن است مصداقى از آن محسوب شود

 

Instead of being inquisitive and accepting one's ignorance, and give the chance to properly contemplate over discussions and issues and research them exhaustively, give the opportunity to see what other interpretations and understandings can be given etc., we have too many Muslims making hasty judgements. This is a very dangerous disease.

 

Wassalam

Edited July 18, 2015 by Ibn al-Hussain

 

Edited September 17 by Ashvazdanghe

[Ashvazdanghe 6,147]

15 hours ago, Jaane Rabb said:

 

And with him (Jibra’eel) was a tray of gold and it was studded with emeralds, and (he had) a comb of gold. So he (Jibra’eel) split his chest, then he took his heart and split it and took out from it a black spot, and he casted it out

Abbas bin Abdulmutallab again said that when Abdullah was born to Abdulmutallab there was a light shining in his face like as  sunlight my father said he would have a high position , said I dreamed of a white bird coming from his nose and flied that reached to The east and west   and then returned and fell on the Kaaba's house, and all the Quraysh fell to him, and in the midst of what the people were watching became a light, he drew between the East and the west, and reached to them when I woke up and asked the priestof  Bani Makhsoum. he said ,oh Abbas I your dream is true there is a child comes from behind of him that people from the east and the west will follow him, my father said Abdullah was important to me that He married  with Amena, the most beautiful of Quraysh women, and when 'Abdullah killed  and Amena bring the Messenger of God, and I saw the light between his two eyes, shining and I smelled his face it, I found it and smelled it on me I got a piece of musk from the sweet smell of it and Amena told me that because of the pain of giving birth to me and to work hard I heard a noise that was not like the words of men, and I saw a banner of Sondos on a goblet of light between heaven and Earth, and a light shone through her head. Stretching to reach the sky, I saw the palaces of the Shaam, as if it were a flame of fire, giving light, and I saw great birds around me with great feathers on their feathers. They scattered around me, and I saw the al-Assadiyah  passing over to me, saying, "What do you think  Aman the priests and idols are suffering from your son? And I saw a young man who was taller, whiter and better dressed than any of the people, and I think Abdulmutallab came to me and brought him out He took me and threw water at his mouth and had a pile of gold that was emerald.  his shoulder with gold and opened his belly and pulled out his heart and estimated the fissure and black spot and threw it away. There was a white powder with him, and he filled his heart with it, and put it on his belly, touching his belly, and speaking to him, and I did not understand what the child said except that mn said I filled your heart with Faithfulness and Guardianship and Nursing God I have accumulated your heart of faith, faith, wisdom, wisdom, and courage. Blessed are those who obey you and woe to those who oppose you, then find another package of white cherry. And there was a seal, and he sealed his back, saying that God had commanded me to give you the Holy Ghost, and put on him a shirt, and said, This is yours shield from the pests of the world, O Abbas, these are the ones I saw in my own eyes. Abbas said I could read his seal on that day reading, I saw the seal of prophecy between his two shoulders, and I kept it secret, and this hadith and I forgot it until I became a Muslim that Messenger of God to reminded  it to me, "Peace be upon him".

https://hadith.inoor.ir/search.aspx?SearchPhrase=وَ مَعَهُ طَسْتٌ مِنْ ذَهَبٍ مَضْرُوبٍ مِنْ زُمُرُّدٍ وَ مُشْطٌ مِنْ ذَهَبٍ فَشَقَّ بَطْنَهُ شَقّاً ثُمَّ أَخْرَجَ قَلْبَهُ فَشَقَّهُ فَأَخْرَجَ مِنْهُ نُكْتَةً سَوْدَاءَ فَرَمَى بِهَا&SearchType=or

https://hadith.inoor.ir/hadith/439741?SourceID=0&PageType=ViewTranslate&HadithID=439741&FilterGroupID=0

[Cool 211]

5 hours ago, Jaane Rabb said:

But according to the Shi'I hadith science some of these are authentic! And so instead you reject on the basis of matn.

Actually we don't reject any of the hadith, instead, we simply grade them on the basis of the verses of Qur'an (if they contradict, they receive gradation accordingly), strength of chain of  narrators & darayah.

6 hours ago, Jaane Rabb said:

That's when your religion becomes a case of cherry picking what you like and tucking away the weird n wacky (and authenticate) hadith. Picking and choosing is not religion for me.

Who told you that ahadith are religion? 

6 hours ago, Jaane Rabb said:

Imagine the story of Yunus being swallowed up by a whale was in hadith instead of Qur'an. How many of us would find that ridiculous?

There in fact are ahadith which mention important aspects of that story. Secondly, you can make any verse of Qur'an ridiculous by a ridiculous interpretation. Like you're doing by asserting that a teacher don't have complete knowledge of the book which he is supposed to teach. That is ridiculous!!

 

 

[Muslim2010 2,875]

20 hours ago, Jaane Rabb said:

I hope you find these as funny: [From Shi'I sources]

5. Ali b. Ibrahim from his father (Ibrahim b. Hashim) from Ibn Asbat AND Muhammad b. Ahmad from Musa b. al-Qasim al-Bajali from Ali b. Asbat who said:

I said to Abi al-Hasan al-Ridha عليه السلام: may I be made your ransom - should I go by way of land or sea - for our journey is fearful and very dangerous?

So he said: go out by way of land - and there is nothing upon you (no harm upon you) that you go to the Masjid of the messenger of Allah and pray a two unit prayer in other than the time of the obligatory prayer, then you supplicate to Allah for the best option a hundred and one times, then you observe - so if Allah decides the sea for you (by casting this decision into your heart) then say what Allah the Mighty and Majestic said: “And say: embark upon it - in the name of Allah be its sailing and anchoring - verily my Lord is most forgiving the merciful” (11:41), so if the sea is tumultuous then take support (lean) on your right side and say: “in the name of Allah - be tranquil by the tranquility of Allah and be calm by the calmness of Allah and be aright (quiet down) by the will of Allah - and there is no strength nor power save by Allah”.

We said: may Allah grant you prosperity - what is the Sakina?

He said: a wind that comes from paradise - it has a face like the face of a man and good fragrance, and it is the one which descended upon Ibrahim so it began revolving around the pillars of the House (Ka’ba) while he was setting up the beams .

It was said to him: is it the one about which Allah the Mighty and Majestic said: “In it - a Sakina - from your lord and remnants [relics] from that which was left by the family of Musa and the family of Harun” (2:248)?

He said: that is the Sakina of the ark (of the covenant), and in it (I.e. the ark) was a basin in which was washed the hearts of the Prophets, and the ark used to move around in Bani Israil only among the Prophets.

Then he turned to us and said: what is your ark?

We said: the weapons (of the messenger of Allah)

He said: you have spoken the truth - it is your ark.

And if you go by way of land [on the back of an animal] then say that which was said by Allah the Mighty and Majestic: “Praised be the one who has made this submissive to us and we could not have otherwise subdued it and to our lord are we to return” (43:13) for there is not a slave who says it whence he climbs on (and begins a journey) and then goes on to fall off his camel or animal and gets hurt - by the will of Allah.

Then he said: and when you leave your house say: “In the name of Allah, I have believed in Allah, I have depended on Allah, there is no strength nor power save by Allah” for the angels beat the faces of the devils and they say: he (the man) has named Allah, and believed in Allah, and depended upon Allah, and said: there is no strength nor power save by Allah. (Muwathaq - Translated by Islamic Salvation)

Source:
al-Kulayni, al-Kafi, vol. 3, pg. 471-472, hadith # 5
 

 

ثُمَّ إِنَّ جَبْرَائِيلَ ع أَلْقَى رَسُولَ اللَّهِ ص عَلَى قَفَاهُ وَ رَفَعَ أَثْوَابَهُ فَقَالَ لَهُ النَّبِيُّ ص مَا تُرِيدُ تَصْنَعُ يَا أَخِي جَبْرَائِيلُ فَقَالَ جَبْرَائِيلُ لَا بَأْسَ عَلَيْكَ فَأَخْرَجَ جَنَاحَهُ‏ «3» وَ شَقَّ بَطْنَ النَّبِيِّ ص وَ أَدْخَلَ جَنَاحَهُ فِي بَطْنِهِ وَ خَرَقَ قَلْبَهُ‏ وَ شَقَّ المقلبة وَ أَظْهَرَ نُكْتَةً سَوْدَاءَ فَأَخَذَهَا جَبْرَائِيلُ ع فَغَسَلَهَا وَ مِيكَائِيلُ يَصُبُّ الْمَاءَ عَلَيْهِ فَنَادَى مُنَادٍ مِنَ السَّمَاءِ يَقُولُ يَا جَبْرَائِيلُ لَا تَقْشِرْ قَلْبَ‏ مُحَمَّدٍ ص فَتُوجِعَهُ وَ لَكِنِ اغْسِلْهُ بِزَغَبِكَ وَ الزَّغَبُ هُوَ الرِّيشُ الَّذِي تَحْتَ الْجَنَاحِ فَأَخَذَ جَبْرَئِيلُ زَغَبَةً وَ غَسَلَ بِهَا قَلْبَ‏ مُحَمَّدٍ ص ثُمَّ رَدَّ المقلبة إِلَى الْقَلْبِ‏ وَ الْقَلْبَ‏ إِلَى الصَّدْرِ

Then Jibra'eel met the Messenger of Allah, and he stopped him and lifted his ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) shirt. The Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) said to him (Jibra'eel), 'What are you intending to do, O my brother Jibra'eel?' Jibra'eel said: 'There is no problem upon you, and he took his win and split the chest of the Prophet, and he (Jibra'eel) entered his wing in his ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) chest, and penetrating his ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) heart, split it and turned it (?) and it revealed a black spot, so he (Jibra'eel) took it and washed it, and Mika'eel was pouring water on it, then a call from a caller in the heavens says: 'O Jibra'eel, do not peel the heart of Muhammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)), for it pains him,but wash it with your fluffy (feathers), the fluffy (feathers) is the feather which is under the wing. So Jibra'eel took the fluffy (feathers) and he washed with it the heart of Muhammad, then returned turn (?) to the heart and the Earth to the chest

Source:
Ibn Shaadhaan al-Qummi, Fadaa'il (Qom: Radi Publications, 1405), pg. 34

al-Majlisi, Bihaar al-Anwar, vol. 15, ch. 4, hadith # 13, pg. 356
 

The above two hadith address the Prophet saww cleaning of heart.

The obvious question is that if the Prophet 's heart was cleaned (by removing the black spot,) then why Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) sent the verse of purification? (last part 33:33) announcing Thy will to keep the Prophet Muhammad saww and his Ahl allbayat As clean by keeping the rijs away?

Do we find any such cleaning for the Ahl albayat ie progeny of the Prophet Muhammad saww? Since they all were covered under the cloak when the verse of purification was revealed.

The answer is no so making it clear that the hadith (for removing the black spot,) seem contradictory to the verse of purification.

wasalam

Edited September 17 by Muslim2010

[Jaane Rabb 209]

10 hours ago, Logic1234 said:

Salamun Alaikum, 

Would you please tell me what is that "Haqq" towards which Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) guide? He Himself is Al-Haqq. 

Can you tell me how can anyone "follow" (do itteba' of) Allah? 

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is absolute guide (Al-Hadi), no doubt about it. But how actually He guides? Is there any system of guidance in place? If yes, what is that & what are its components? 

Now lets back to the topic, whether Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) possess the knowledge of the book (I.e., Qur'an) or not? Yes of course he do possess the complete knowledge of the book. Otherwise there would be contradictions everywhere and I do mention few here:
 
*A teacher appointed by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) who don't have the complete knowledge of the verses which he recites.  
*A guide who is not fully guided by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), yet He has commanded us to do the itteba' of that person who is not perfectly guided and still in need of guidance specifically about the book which was revealed on his heart.

Wa'alaykum Assalaam

Allah is the ultimate Truth.

The Truth Allah guides towards is to believe in La Ilaaha IllAllah - There is no God but The-God - and to submit to Him. Then to believe in the Book, Prophets, Angels, Last day, etc.

To guide mankind, He has sent warners to deliver the message. The Scripture they bring is a source of guidance. Allah can also inspire. These are the forms of guidance I'm aware of.

As for the warners - the Messengers, the Prophets - we must follow them as commanded by Allah. However, these Prophets were under trial and observation themselves. For long as a Prophet obeys the command of Allah, we must follow that Prophet in order to follow Allah. Allah says:

[72:26-28]
[He is] Knower of the unseen, and He does not disclose His [knowledge of the] unseen to anyone
Except whom He has approved of messengers, and indeed, He sends before each messenger and behind him observers
That he may know that they have conveyed the messages of their Lord; and He has encompassed whatever is with them and has enumerated all things in number.

And:

[69:43-45]
[It is] a revelation from the Lord of the worlds.
And if he [Muhammad] had made up about Us some [false] sayings,
We would have seized him by the right hand;

They are all servants of Allah that must act as or within what has been commanded. That's not to downplay the honour of being a Messenger of Allah, to be a deliverer of the divine message.

Now, we all know what Yunus did:

[37:139-144]
And indeed, Jonah was among the messengers.
[Mention] when he ran away to the laden ship.
And he drew lots and was among the losers.
Then the fish swallowed him, while he was blameworthy.
And had he not been of those who exalt Allah,
He would have remained inside its belly until the Day they are resurrected.

And:

[21:87-88]
And [mention] the man of the fish, when he went off in anger and thought that We would not decree [anything] upon him. And he called out within the darknesses, "There is no deity except You; exalted are You. Indeed, I have been of the wrongdoers."
So We responded to him and saved him from the distress. And thus do We save the believers.

Allah says to Muhammad:

[68:48-49]
Then be patient for the decision of your Lord, [O Muhammad], and be not like the companion of the fish when he called out while he was distressed.
If not that a favor from his Lord overtook him, he would have been thrown onto the naked shore while he was censured.

Instead, Allah tells Muhammad to:

[16:123] Then We revealed to you, [O Muhammad], to follow the religion of Abraham, inclining toward truth; and he was not of those who associate with Allah.

I don't believe all Prophets are born as one and that they have all the knowledge since birth for their Prophetic mission. I think for one to become a Prophet, one has to fulfil certain conditions and/or have certain qualities, which leads to their destiny to become one. Muhammad's [saw] conduct could be what had him be the chosen one. In addition to the evidence above, here's more evidences on the matter:

[93:7] And He found you lost and guided [you]

[45:18] Then We put you, [O Muhammad], on an ordained way concerning the matter [of religion]; so follow it and do not follow the inclinations of those who do not know.

[28:86] And you were not expecting that the Book would be conveyed to you, but [it is] a mercy from your Lord. So do not be an assistant to the disbelievers.

[42:52] And thus We have revealed to you an inspiration of Our command. You did not know what is the Book or [what is] faith, but We have made it a light by which We guide whom We will of Our servants. And indeed, [O Muhammad], you guide to a straight path -

[2:285] The Messenger has believed in what was revealed to him from his Lord, and [so have] the believers. All of them have believed in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers, [saying], "We make no distinction between any of His messengers." And they say, "We hear and we obey. [We seek] Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the [final] destination."

[6:50] Say, [O Muhammad], "I do not tell you that I have the depositories [containing the provision] of Allah or that I know the unseen, nor do I tell you that I am an angel. I only follow what is revealed to me." Say, "Is the blind equivalent to the seeing? Then will you not give thought?"

[6:106] Follow, [O Muhammad], what has been revealed to you from your Lord - there is no deity except Him - and turn away from those who associate others with Allah.

[6:14] Say, "Is it other than Allah I should take as a protector, Creator of the heavens and the Earth, while it is He who feeds and is not fed?" Say, [O Muhammad], "Indeed, I have been commanded to be the first [among you] who submit [to Allah] and [was commanded], 'Do not ever be of the polytheists.'"

[27:91] [Say, O Muhammad], "I have only been commanded to worship the Lord of this city, who made it sacred and to whom [belongs] all things. And I am commanded to be of the Muslims [those who submit to Allah]

The same can be said about Musa, who clearly says he attained Prophethood later in life:

[26:16-22]
Go to Pharaoh and say, 'We are the messengers of the Lord of the worlds,
[Commanded to say], "Send with us the Children of Israel."'"
[Pharaoh] said, "Did we not raise you among us as a child, and you remained among us for years of your life?
And [then] you did your deed which you did, and you were of the ungrateful."
[Moses] said, "I did it, then, while I was of those astray.
So I fled from you when I feared you. Then my Lord granted me wisdom and prophethood and appointed me [as one] of the messengers.
And is this a favor of which you remind me - that you have enslaved the Children of Israel?"

[28:14] And when he attained his full strength and was [mentally] mature, We bestowed upon him judgement and knowledge. And thus do We reward the doers of good.

So, did Musa have "complete knowledge" as per the above verse and your understanding? Clearly not, as proved by the events surrounding Musa and Khidr.

These coupled with the arguments mentioned before:

Quote

Makes zero sense for someone who already has knowledge of the book, to then be receiving revelation through Gibrael.

Other verses such as 11:49, 12:3, 4:164, also make clear that the Prophet didn't have complete knowledge but acquired whilst into the Prophetic mission. e.g.

"That is from the news of the unseen which We reveal to you, [O Muhammad]. You knew it not, neither you nor your people, before this."

Is reason enough to have the belief that the Prophet certainly didn't have "complete knowledge" of the book since birth. Instead, he was taught and guided whilst teaching and guiding humanity. The evidences are many and strong.

Fi Amanillah

[Jaane Rabb 209]

5 hours ago, Cool said:

Actually we don't reject any of the hadith, instead, we simply grade them on the basis of the verses of Qur'an (if they contradict, they receive gradation accordingly), strength of chain of  narrators & darayah.

Who told you that ahadith are religion? 

There in fact are ahadith which mention important aspects of that story. Secondly, you can make any verse of Qur'an ridiculous by a ridiculous interpretation. Like you're doing by asserting that a teacher don't have complete knowledge of the book which he is supposed to teach. That is ridiculous!!

Sahih hadith can be rejected on the basis of matn alone. Some of the times when this happens the scholar attributes it to taqiyyah.

You use hadith to shape your religious beliefs and practices.

Please see evidences provided above.

[Jaane Rabb 209]

Brothers @Ashvazdanghe @Muslim2010 

I'm not here to make an argument regarding the ahadith of heart cleansing. I don't actually care for its validity. Simply just making a point to someone else regarding principles.

Thanks

[Cool 211]

7 hours ago, Jaane Rabb said:

You use hadith to shape your religious beliefs and practices.

Religion itself is perfect, reached to "kamal" by the blessings of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and it really does not require to be shaped by any way. It is perfect.

7 hours ago, Jaane Rabb said:

Please see evidences provided above.

 

7 hours ago, Jaane Rabb said:

 

[72:26-28]
[He is] Knower of the unseen, and He does not disclose His [knowledge of the] unseen to anyone
Except whom He has approved of messengers, and indeed, He sends before each messenger and behind him observers
That he may know that they have conveyed the messages of their Lord; and He has encompassed whatever is with them and has enumerated all things in number.

And:

[69:43-45]
[It is] a revelation from the Lord of the worlds.
And if he [Muhammad] had made up about Us some [false] sayings,
We would have seized him by the right hand;

They are all servants of Allah that must act as or within what has been commanded. That's not to downplay the honour of being a Messenger of Allah, to be a deliverer of the divine message.

Now, we all know what Yunus did:

[37:139-144]
And indeed, Jonah was among the messengers.
[Mention] when he ran away to the laden ship.
And he drew lots and was among the losers.
Then the fish swallowed him, while he was blameworthy.
And had he not been of those who exalt Allah,
He would have remained inside its belly until the Day they are resurrected.

And:

[21:87-88]
And [mention] the man of the fish, when he went off in anger and thought that We would not decree [anything] upon him. And he called out within the darknesses, "There is no deity except You; exalted are You. Indeed, I have been of the wrongdoers."
So We responded to him and saved him from the distress. And thus do We save the believers.

Allah says to Muhammad:

[68:48-49]
Then be patient for the decision of your Lord, [O Muhammad], and be not like the companion of the fish when he called out while he was distressed.
If not that a favor from his Lord overtook him, he would have been thrown onto the naked shore while he was censured.

Instead, Allah tells Muhammad to:

[16:123] Then We revealed to you, [O Muhammad], to follow the religion of Abraham, inclining toward truth; and he was not of those who associate with Allah.

I don't believe all Prophets are born as one and that they have all the knowledge since birth for their Prophetic mission. I think for one to become a Prophet, one has to fulfil certain conditions and/or have certain qualities, which leads to their destiny to become one. Muhammad's [saw] conduct could be what had him be the chosen one. In addition to the evidence above, here's more evidences on the matter:

[93:7] And He found you lost and guided [you]

[45:18] Then We put you, [O Muhammad], on an ordained way concerning the matter [of religion]; so follow it and do not follow the inclinations of those who do not know.

[28:86] And you were not expecting that the Book would be conveyed to you, but [it is] a mercy from your Lord. So do not be an assistant to the disbelievers.

[42:52] And thus We have revealed to you an inspiration of Our command. You did not know what is the Book or [what is] faith, but We have made it a light by which We guide whom We will of Our servants. And indeed, [O Muhammad], you guide to a straight path -

[2:285] The Messenger has believed in what was revealed to him from his Lord, and [so have] the believers. All of them have believed in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers, [saying], "We make no distinction between any of His messengers." And they say, "We hear and we obey. [We seek] Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the [final] destination."

[6:50] Say, [O Muhammad], "I do not tell you that I have the depositories [containing the provision] of Allah or that I know the unseen, nor do I tell you that I am an angel. I only follow what is revealed to me." Say, "Is the blind equivalent to the seeing? Then will you not give thought?"

[6:106] Follow, [O Muhammad], what has been revealed to you from your Lord - there is no deity except Him - and turn away from those who associate others with Allah.

[6:14] Say, "Is it other than Allah I should take as a protector, Creator of the heavens and the Earth, while it is He who feeds and is not fed?" Say, [O Muhammad], "Indeed, I have been commanded to be the first [among you] who submit [to Allah] and [was commanded], 'Do not ever be of the polytheists.'"

[27:91] [Say, O Muhammad], "I have only been commanded to worship the Lord of this city, who made it sacred and to whom [belongs] all things. And I am commanded to be of the Muslims [those who submit to Allah]

The same can be said about Musa, who clearly says he attained Prophethood later in life:

[26:16-22]
Go to Pharaoh and say, 'We are the messengers of the Lord of the worlds,
[Commanded to say], "Send with us the Children of Israel."'"
[Pharaoh] said, "Did we not raise you among us as a child, and you remained among us for years of your life?
And [then] you did your deed which you did, and you were of the ungrateful."
[Moses] said, "I did it, then, while I was of those astray.
So I fled from you when I feared you. Then my Lord granted me wisdom and prophethood and appointed me [as one] of the messengers.
And is this a favor of which you remind me - that you have enslaved the Children of Israel?"

[28:14] And when he attained his full strength and was [mentally] mature, We bestowed upon him judgement and knowledge. And thus do We reward the doers of good.

So, did Musa have "complete knowledge" as per the above verse and your understanding? Clearly not, as proved by the events surrounding Musa and Khidr.

Which of the above verse says Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) do not possess the complete knowledge of the book? Its a challenge for you to bring a verse to prove what you're saying.

7 hours ago, Jaane Rabb said:

Is reason enough to have the belief that the Prophet certainly didn't have "complete knowledge" of the book since birth. Instead, he was taught and guided whilst teaching and guiding humanity. The evidences are many and strong.

Fi Amanillah

Don't put the clause "since birth" at the moment because you don't accept ahadith. 

Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) have knowledge of the book or not? A simple question.

Furthermore, here are few verses for you:

Surah Maryam, Verse 7:
يَا زَكَرِيَّا إِنَّا نُبَشِّرُكَ بِغُلَامٍ اسْمُهُ يَحْيَىٰ لَمْ نَجْعَل لَّهُ مِن قَبْلُ سَمِيًّا

O Zakariya! surely We give you good news of a boy whose name shall be Yahya: We have not made before anyone his equal.
(English - Shakir)

Surah Maryam, Verse 12:
يَا يَحْيَىٰ خُذِ الْكِتَابَ بِقُوَّةٍ وَآتَيْنَاهُ الْحُكْمَ صَبِيًّا

O Yahya! take hold of the Book with strength, and We granted him wisdom while yet a child
(English - Shakir)

Surah Maryam, Verse 30:
قَالَ إِنِّي عَبْدُ اللَّهِ آتَانِيَ الْكِتَابَ وَجَعَلَنِي نَبِيًّا

He said: Surely I am a servant of Allah; He has given me the Book and made me a Prophet;
(English - Shakir)

Surah Al-Qasas, Verse 7:
وَأَوْحَيْنَا إِلَىٰ أُمِّ مُوسَىٰ أَنْ أَرْضِعِيهِ فَإِذَا خِفْتِ عَلَيْهِ فَأَلْقِيهِ فِي الْيَمِّ وَلَا تَخَافِي وَلَا تَحْزَنِي إِنَّا رَادُّوهُ إِلَيْكِ وَجَاعِلُوهُ مِنَ الْمُرْسَلِينَ

And We revealed to Musa's mothers, saying: Give him suck, then when you fear for him, cast him into the river and do not fear nor grieve; surely We will bring him back to you and make him one of the apostles.
(English - Shakir)

Surah Al-Kahf, Verse 65:
فَوَجَدَا عَبْدًا مِّنْ عِبَادِنَا آتَيْنَاهُ رَحْمَةً مِّنْ عِندِنَا وَعَلَّمْنَاهُ مِن لَّدُنَّا عِلْمًا

Then they found one from among Our servants whom We had granted mercy from Us and whom We had taught knowledge from Ourselves.
(English - Shakir)

Surah Yusuf, Verse 6:
وَكَذَٰلِكَ يَجْتَبِيكَ رَبُّكَ وَيُعَلِّمُكَ مِن تَأْوِيلِ الْأَحَادِيثِ وَيُتِمُّ نِعْمَتَهُ عَلَيْكَ وَعَلَىٰ آلِ يَعْقُوبَ كَمَا أَتَمَّهَا عَلَىٰ أَبَوَيْكَ مِن قَبْلُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَإِسْحَاقَ إِنَّ رَبَّكَ عَلِيمٌ حَكِيمٌ

And thus will your Lord choose you and teach you the interpretation of sayings and make His favor complete to you and to the children of Yaqoub, as He made it complete before to your fathers, Ibrahim and Ishaq; surely your Lord is Knowing, Wise.
(English - Shakir)

Surah An-Naml, Verse 40:
قَالَ الَّذِي عِندَهُ عِلْمٌ مِّنَ الْكِتَابِ أَنَا آتِيكَ بِهِ قَبْلَ أَن يَرْتَدَّ إِلَيْكَ طَرْفُكَ فَلَمَّا رَآهُ مُسْتَقِرًّا عِندَهُ قَالَ هَٰذَا مِن فَضْلِ رَبِّي لِيَبْلُوَنِي أَأَشْكُرُ أَمْ أَكْفُرُ وَمَن شَكَرَ فَإِنَّمَا يَشْكُرُ لِنَفْسِهِ وَمَن كَفَرَ فَإِنَّ رَبِّي غَنِيٌّ كَرِيمٌ

One who had the knowledge of the Book said: I will bring it to you in the twinkling of an eye. Then when he saw it settled beside him, he said: This is of the grace of my Lord that He may try me whether I am grateful or ungrateful; and whoever is grateful, he is grateful only for his own soul, and whoever is ungrateful, then surely my Lord is Self-sufficient, Honored.
(English - Shakir)

Surah Ar-Rad, Verse 43:
وَيَقُولُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا لَسْتَ مُرْسَلًا قُلْ كَفَىٰ بِاللَّهِ شَهِيدًا بَيْنِي وَبَيْنَكُمْ وَمَنْ عِندَهُ عِلْمُ الْكِتَابِ

And those who disbelieve say: You are not a messenger. Say: Allah is sufficient as a witness between me and you and whoever has knowledge of the Book.
(English - Shakir)

And in the end the last verse, which should be sufficient:

Surah Taha, Verse 114:
فَتَعَالَى اللَّهُ الْمَلِكُ الْحَقُّ وَلَا تَعْجَلْ بِالْقُرْآنِ مِن قَبْلِ أَن يُقْضَىٰ إِلَيْكَ وَحْيُهُ وَقُل رَّبِّ زِدْنِي عِلْمًا

Supremely exalted is therefore Allah, the King, the Truth, and do not make haste with the Qur'an before its revelation is made complete to you and say: O my Lord! increase me in knowledge.
(English - Shakir)

How can he who don't have any prior knowledge of the book, make haste before its complete revelation? A question for you to ponder.

 

[Ashvazdanghe 6,147]

9 hours ago, Jaane Rabb said:

Brothers @Ashvazdanghe @Muslim2010 

I'm not here to make an argument regarding the ahadith of heart cleansing. I don't actually care for its validity. Simply just making a point to someone else regarding principles.

Thanks

someone that has a building fro glass doesn't throw stone to house of his neighbors if we want to make fun of Sunni narration we have more resources than you to ruin So called Sahih books 

10 hours ago, Jaane Rabb said:

Is reason enough to have the belief that the Prophet certainly didn't have "complete knowledge" of the book since birth. Instead, he was taught and guided whilst teaching and guiding humanity. The evidences are many and strong.

Fi Amanillah

Salam your conclusion  is complety wrong in Qur'an says that Prophet Isa (عليه السلام) declared himself as Prophet after birth when he was in cradle that by your conclusion you put level of Prophet Muhammad lesser than Prophet Isa (عليه السلام) 

COMEDY - THE WATERMELON REFUSED THE WILAYAH!- WATCH TILL THE END  - Part 11

 

COMEDY - THE WATER REFUSED THE WILAYAH  - Part 12

 

Edited September 18 by Ashvazdanghe

[Logic1234 250]

11 hours ago, Jaane Rabb said:

The Truth Allah guides towards is to believe in La Ilaaha IllAllah - There is no God but The-God - and to submit to Him. Then to believe in the Book, Prophets, Angels, Last day, etc.

To guide mankind, He has sent warners to deliver the message. The Scripture they bring is a source of guidance. Allah can also inspire. These are the forms of guidance I'm aware of.

As for the warners - the Messengers, the Prophets - we must follow them as commanded by Allah. However, these Prophets were under trial and observation themselves. For long as a Prophet obeys the command of Allah, we must follow that Prophet in order to follow Allah.

Salam,

Can a Prophet really disobey the "command" of Allah? A chosen one, a guided one cannot be His disobedient servant . Can you show me this clause anywhere in Qur'an which says that "as long as Prophet obey Me, you obey him" otherwise you are set free to disobey him? 
 

[Jaane Rabb 209]

8 hours ago, Cool said:

Which of the above verse says Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) do not possess the complete knowledge of the book? Its a challenge for you to bring a verse to prove what you're saying.

Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) have knowledge of the book or not? A simple question.

Still waiting for an answer to:

1. Why Gibrael kept bringing wahi to Muhammad (S) if he already had complete knowledge?

2. Surah Hud is part of Qur'an, yes or no?

[11:49] That is from the news of the unseen which We reveal to you, [O Muhammad]. You knew it not, neither you nor your people, before this. So be patient; indeed, the [best] outcome is for the righteous.

3. Surah Yusuf is part of Qur'an, yes or no?

[12:3] We relate to you, [O Muhammad], the best of stories in what We have revealed to you of this Qur'an although you were, before it, among the unaware.

4. Surah Nisa: [Clearly only given limited knowledge]

[4:164] And [We sent] messengers about whom We have related [their stories] to you before and messengers about whom We have not related to you. And Allah spoke to Moses with [direct] speech.

4. Surah Ghafir: [Again, limited knowledge]

[40:78] And We have already sent messengers before you. Among them are those [whose stories] We have related to you, and among them are those [whose stories] We have not related to you. And it was not for any messenger to bring a sign [or verse] except by permission of Allah. So when the command of Allah comes, it will be concluded in truth, and the falsifiers will thereupon lose [all].

So no, Prophet didn't have complete knowledge based on these verses. And the fact he had to rely on Gibrael for revelation is sufficient proof that he didn't have complete knowledge of the Qur'an. On thing we agree on is the Qur'an cannot have contradiction. So you must make it work with all these verses in mind.

 

Quote

Furthermore, here are few verses for you:

Surah Al-Qasas, Verse 7:
وَأَوْحَيْنَا إِلَىٰ أُمِّ مُوسَىٰ أَنْ أَرْضِعِيهِ فَإِذَا خِفْتِ عَلَيْهِ فَأَلْقِيهِ فِي الْيَمِّ وَلَا تَخَافِي وَلَا تَحْزَنِي إِنَّا رَادُّوهُ إِلَيْكِ وَجَاعِلُوهُ مِنَ الْمُرْسَلِينَ

And We revealed to Musa's mothers, saying: Give him suck, then when you fear for him, cast him into the river and do not fear nor grieve; surely We will bring him back to you and make him one of the apostles.
(English - Shakir)

None of those verses addressed the issue. Those verses that said "taught knowledge", "has knowledge", etc I don't take as being having complete knowledge. As stated before in reference to Musa:

[28:14] And when he attained his full strength and was [mentally] mature, We bestowed upon him judgement and knowledge. And thus do We reward the doers of good.

So, did Musa have "complete knowledge" as per the above verse and your understanding? Clearly not, as proved by the events surrounding Musa and Khidr. Musa was STILL LEARNING whilst on the Prophet Mission. Allah gives however much He wills, when He wills.

As for the other verse you quoted shown above [Qasas:7], I forgot to mention that. It CLEARLY says "[We will] make him one of the apostles". So Musa wasn't a Prophet since birth and attained at a later stage, though it was destined for him [maybe because of his qualities, etc etc as mentioned before].

The same for Muhammad (S) as shown in many verses previously [16:123, 93:7, 28:86, 42:52, 2:285, etc]

 

Quote

And in the end the last verse, which should be sufficient:

Surah Taha, Verse 114:
فَتَعَالَى اللَّهُ الْمَلِكُ الْحَقُّ وَلَا تَعْجَلْ بِالْقُرْآنِ مِن قَبْلِ أَن يُقْضَىٰ إِلَيْكَ وَحْيُهُ وَقُل رَّبِّ زِدْنِي عِلْمًا

Supremely exalted is therefore Allah, the King, the Truth, and do not make haste with the Qur'an before its revelation is made complete to you and say: O my Lord! increase me in knowledge.
(English - Shakir)

How can he who don't have any prior knowledge of the book, make haste before its complete revelation? A question for you to ponder.

Simple, Allah is telling Muhammad (S) to listen to the complete verse first before he repeats it opposed to repeating on a word by word basis.

1. Why Muhammad (S) has to wait to receive revelation when he already has the complete knowledge??

2. Why would someone with complete knowledge ask for an increase in knowledge??

These are proofs against your belief...

 

5 hours ago, Logic1234 said:

Salam,

Can a Prophet really disobey the "command" of Allah? A chosen one, a guided one cannot be His disobedient servant . Can you show me this clause anywhere in Qur'an which says that "as long as Prophet obey Me, you obey him" otherwise you are set free to disobey him? 

Wassalaam,

Please read the verses quoted in regards to Yunus again. Allah says "he went off in anger and thought that We would not decree [anything] upon him".

Then Allah says to Muhammad (S) "be not like the companion of the fish".

As Allah says, Messengers are under observation themselves and had Muhammad said anything other than that was commanded we would've seized him. You think Allah would want us to follow suit if such a thing was to happen?

Let's please not respond for the sake of argument but ponder on the evidences. It's clear that the Muhammad (S) of the hadith is different from the Muhammad (S) in the Qur'an - something that knocked me for six as well. These are evidences from the Qur'an. Forget about responding to me, pick up the Qur'an, and read again and again with an inquisitive mind as opposed to trying to fit the Qur'an to your sectarian beliefs.

I don't have anything else to say so might not be responding anymore. Please, don't believe me. But believe the Qur'an. Read what it says.

May Allah guide us all.

Fi Amanillah.

[Jaane Rabb 209]

7 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

someone that has a building fro glass doesn't throw stone to house of his neighbors if we want to make fun of Sunni narration we have more resources than you to ruin So called Sahih books

Brother, I have many other hadith from Shia books which are filth. This isn't about throwing stones, etc it's about being truthful and sincere. It should never be about trying to argue for the sake of sect dominance. It should always be for the Truth. My book is only Qur'an and no Muslim can throw a stone at that.

Quote

Salam your conclusion  is complety wrong in Qur'an says that Prophet Isa (عليه السلام) declared himself as Prophet after birth when he was in cradle that by your conclusion you put level of Prophet Muhammad lesser than Prophet Isa (عليه السلام)

Every Prophet has their own mission based upon the Will of Allah. Allah spoke directly to Musa, does that make Musa superior than Muhammad (S)? Why do we even have to think about Prophet superiority? Leave that for Allah my friend.

Take care.

[Cool 211]

4 minutes ago, Jaane Rabb said:

Why Gibrael kept bringing wahi to Muhammad (S) if he already had complete knowledge

First you need to tell me your understanding of these verse:

Surah Ash-Shuara, Verse 193:
نَزَلَ بِهِ الرُّوحُ الْأَمِينُ

The Faithful Spirit has descended with it,
(English - Shakir)

Surah Ash-Shuara, Verse 194:
عَلَىٰ قَلْبِكَ لِتَكُونَ مِنَ الْمُنذِرِينَ

Upon your heart that you may be of the warners
(English - Shakir)

7 minutes ago, Jaane Rabb said:

Surah Hud is part of Qur'an, yes or no?

[11:49] That is from the news of the unseen which We reveal to you, [O Muhammad]. You knew it not, neither you nor your people, before this. So be patient; indeed, the [best] outcome is for the righteous

Sura hud is part of Qur'an. Therefore, you cannot present a verse from the book to show me look, Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) don't have knowledge of Qur'an. That is ridiculous!

12 minutes ago, Jaane Rabb said:

So no, Prophet didn't have complete knowledge based on these verses.

13 minutes ago, Jaane Rabb said:

Those verses that said "taught knowledge", "has knowledge", etc I don't take as being having complete knowledge. As stated before in reference to Musa:

I can only laugh on your arguments. Referring me the verses of "the book" to prove that Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) don't have complete knowledge of that book.

16 minutes ago, Jaane Rabb said:

Simple, Allah is telling Muhammad (S) to listen to the complete verse first before he repeats it opposed to repeating on a word by word basis.

You mean to say, when Gabrael recited before him (Bismillahir Rehmanir Raheem) Bismillah, Prophet hasted in repeating and said bismillah while Garael yet to pronuonce ArRehmanir Raheem? 

21 minutes ago, Jaane Rabb said:

Why Muhammad (S) has to wait to receive revelation when he already has the complete knowledge??

Surah An-Najm, Verse 3:
وَمَا يَنطِقُ عَنِ الْهَوَىٰ

Nor does he speak out of desire.
(English - Shakir)

22 minutes ago, Jaane Rabb said:

Why would someone with complete knowledge ask for an increase in knowledge??

Complete knowledge of the book. 

This dua itself is an evidence why Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) has complete knowledge of the book as well as knowledge of the ghayb. His source has been clearly mentioned in this dua.

Second thing is that knowledge itself is limit less. No one except Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) can claim that he is all-knowing. 

 

[Ashvazdanghe 6,147]

4 hours ago, Jaane Rabb said:

don't have anything else to say so might not be responding anymore. Please, don't believe me. But believe the Qur'an. Read what it says.

May Allah guide us all

You read Qur'an with wrong mindset & all of atprgument based on false understanding of Wahabists, if you can show filth in Shia Hadith , it’s a challenge for you anyway all hadiths that you mentioned are rational one of them says about a supplication that recommended by a Imam Sadiq لا حول و لا قوه ال بالله that highly recommended to recite after fajr & Maghrib Namaz & also a favorite quote by Sunni Muslims too & about cleaning of heart of Prophet it said by Ibn Abbas (رضي الله عنه) that both Shia & Sunni agree on his thrust worthy & Sunnis have more narrations from him than Shias that speaks about his dream & dream state of mother of Prophet Muhammad (pbu) the Lady Amena (sa) that people can see imaginary things but Wahabists are denying that she & father of Prophet Muhammad (pbu) were believers & say they died as unbelievers nauzubillah that your mindset is same as them in reading Qur'an .

[Logic1234 250]

20 hours ago, Jaane Rabb said:

Please read the verses quoted in regards to Yunus again. Allah says "he went off in anger and thought that We would not decree [anything] upon him".

Then Allah says to Muhammad (S) "be not like the companion of the fish".

 

It is sad to note that you have doubts about the infallibility of Prophets! 
 

Although I have strong arguments with me & can discuss this matter in full details but I am not willing to discuss it now. Because it is a chain, after Yunus (عليه السلام) you will bring the case of Adam (عليه السلام) or Musa (عليه السلام) or Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and that would make this a lengthy debate.

So in short, I believe in the infallibility of Prophets, they are the guided ones & chosen ones, they are the mukhlaseen. Thinking that they are sinners or those who make mistakes while performing their duties or that they are running away from their mission, is a sin itself for me. 
 

21 hours ago, Jaane Rabb said:

As Allah says, Messengers are under observation themselves and had Muhammad said anything other than that was commanded we would've seized him. You think Allah would want us to follow suit if such a thing was to happen?

  And you think that those messengers don't know that they're under observation of God? You think them as we common people are, who becomes "ghafil" in a moment? 

21 hours ago, Jaane Rabb said:

It's clear that the Muhammad (S) of the hadith is different from the Muhammad (S) in the Qur'an

الَّذِينَ جَعَلُوا الْقُرْآنَ عِضِينَ

You have indeed parted the Qur'an. Because you have parted the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) . 

[Jaane Rabb 209]

On 9/18/2019 at 3:01 PM, Cool said:

I can only laugh on your arguments.

Likewise, I find it ridiculous to believe that the Prophet had complete knowledge of the book, yet he had to await revelation to be received via Gibrael over the course of his mission and then had to await its recitation in full before repeating to the people. Anyway, I consider our debate finished now as it's becoming fruitless for us both.
 

On 9/18/2019 at 6:50 PM, Ashvazdanghe said:

You read Qur'an with wrong mindset & all of atprgument based on false understanding of Wahabists

I read the Qur'an with a mindset to be guided, not with a mindset that I must make it fit into my [old] sectarian beliefs.

 

12 hours ago, Logic1234 said:

It is sad to note that you have doubts about the infallibility of Prophets! 
 

Although I have strong arguments with me & can discuss this matter in full details but I am not willing to discuss it now. Because it is a chain, after Yunus (عليه السلام) you will bring the case of Adam (عليه السلام) or Musa (عليه السلام) or Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and that would make this a lengthy debate.

So in short, I believe in the infallibility of Prophets, they are the guided ones & chosen ones, they are the mukhlaseen. Thinking that they are sinners or those who make mistakes while performing their duties or that they are running away from their mission, is a sin itself for me. 
 

  And you think that those messengers don't know that they're under observation of God? You think them as we common people are, who becomes "ghafil" in a moment? 

الَّذِينَ جَعَلُوا الْقُرْآنَ عِضِينَ

You have indeed parted the Qur'an. Because you have parted the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) . 

I do not believe infallibility. I only believe Allah is infallible. I used to believe exactly as you do, considering I was a devout Shia for most of my life. Things have changed.

Regarding mukhlaseen. I take this to mean sincere/purified ones and I don't believe it refers to Prophets only, but also to those that will be granted paradise. They are mentioned about five times in Surah As-Saffat. Feel free to check it out when you have a moment spare.

Sure, the Messengers do know that they are under trial, but they are human and not robots. They have to control their nafs as we do. Muhammad (S) said, "I am only a man like you, to whom has been revealed that your God is one God." 18:110, 41:6.

In any case, I agree about not discussing further.

 

@Cool @Logic1234 @Ashvazdanghe @Muslim2010

It's been a pleasure discussing brothers. Fi Amanillah.

[Cool 211]

4 hours ago, Jaane Rabb said:

yet he had to await revelation to be received via Gibrael over the course of his mission and then had to await its recitation in full before repeating to the people

I need to edit this comment as I am tagging you to a different thread to discuss the revelation of Qur'an.

Edited September 20 by Cool

[aaaz1618 1,746]

@Jaane Rabb keep up with your contribution to the forum, you make some valid points. Don't be discouraged.

[Logic1234 250]

7 hours ago, Jaane Rabb said:

I do not believe infallibility. I only believe Allah is infallible.

The bold part shows that you don't know what we mean by infallibility (ismah). 
 

7 hours ago, Jaane Rabb said:

t's been a pleasure discussing brothers. Fi Amanillah

Same here brother!

[Ashvazdanghe 6,147]

7 hours ago, aaaz1618 said:

@Jaane Rabb keep up with your contribution to the forum, you make some valid points. Don't be discouraged.

Salam he just provides Wahabi points in that you can find in all forums like as Islamqa & etc 

Edited September 20 by Ashvazdanghe

[wmehar2 633]

On 9/16/2019 at 2:01 PM, Jaane Rabb said:

And with him (Jibra’eel) was a tray of gold and it was studded with emeralds, and (he had) a comb of gold. So he (Jibra’eel) split his chest, then he took his heart and split it and took out from it a black spot, and he casted it out

Source:
al-Saduq, al-Amali, majlis #45, pg. 264, hadith # 2

al-Saduq, Kamal al-Deen, vol. 1, ch. 12, pg. 176, hadith # 33

Is this not a contradiction to other hadith?    If the Prophet had black spots of impurity in his heart , how could he have been created and born with infallibility and knowledge,  before even Adam. Who knew the message/book since birth? And was a perfect being and believer before revelation? 

 

How do you reconcile this contradiction? @Cool @Muslim2010 @Logic1234

[wmehar2 633]

On 9/18/2019 at 10:01 AM, Cool said:

On 9/18/2019 at 9:32 AM, Jaane Rabb said:

Surah Hud is part of Qur'an, yes or no?

[11:49] That is from the news of the unseen which We reveal to you, [O Muhammad]. You knew it not, neither you nor your people, before this. So be patient; indeed, the [best] outcome is for the righteous

Sura hud is part of Qur'an. Therefore, you cannot present a verse from the book to show me look, Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) don't have knowledge of Qur'an. That is ridiculous!

So how do you understand the verse where it says, "this is news of unseen" revealed to Prophet, that he and people did not know it before the verse was revealed. 

What is your understanding,  or tafsir if you don't have personal understanding ?

Qur'an is message and guidance from Allah and is truth.

The verse plainly explains Muhammad knew not the news of ghayb. And now and the rest of people know upon learning the verse.

..... if Muhammad didnt know before the verse was revealed then he could not have known before it was revealed.  Otherwise a contradiction exists and the Qur'an is relegated  as an invention of man and to be discarded nauzubillah.

41:42

falsehood comes not to it from before it nor from behind it; a sending down from One All-wise, All-laudable.

 

Edited September 24 by wmehar2

[Cool 211]

24 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

So how do you understand the verse where it says, "this is news of unseen" revealed to Prophet, that he and people did not know it before the verse was revealed. 

What are the types of revelation & when actually Qur'an revealed? In laylatul qadr or in a period of 23 years? Where and upon whom it was revealed in laylatul qadr? 

Qur'an itself also mentions its pre-revealed existence. It is preserved in kitabin maknoon and none can get access to it except the mutahharoon. Who are the mutahharoon according to Qur'an? 

Try to search the answers in Qur'an.

[wmehar2 633]

1 hour ago, Cool said:

What are the types of revelation & when actually Qur'an revealed? In laylatul qadr or in a period of 23 years? Where and upon whom it was revealed in laylatul qadr? 

Qur'an itself also mentions its pre-revealed existence. It is preserved in kitabin maknoon and none can get access to it except the mutahharoon. Who are the mutahharoon according to Qur'an? 

Try to search the answers in Qur'an.

It could not have been in one night, we know this from Qur'an

25:32

The unbelievers say, 'Why has the Koran not been sent down upon him all at once?' Even so, that We may strengthen thy heart thereby, and We have chanted it very distinctly.

I believe Allah would have defended a

gainst this lie and told us in the verse that it was ALL sent down all at once. But it wasn't so. 

I do not dispute the books preexistance..

In the 97th chapter,   it begins

Behold, We sent it down on the Night of Power;

Unfortunately this verse alone doesn't provide details to the extent if the entire Qur'an was provided or the first revealed verses.  

I'm not against the idea that it all could have been revealed but if that happened Muhammad did not memorize/absorb it all in that one night. Otherwise we'll have contradiction with 11:49

Please answer my question I really want to understand you here. 

17:106

and a Koran We have divided, for thee to recite it to mankind at intervals, and We have sent it down successively

this verse is also pretty concrete in determining that it came in pieces. 

 

there is also 

24:11

Those who came with the slander are a band of you; do not reckon it evil for you; rather it is good for you. Every man of them shall have the sin that he has earned charged to him; and whosoever of them took upon himself the greater part of it, him there awaits a mighty chastisement.

 

We're not the Prophet and the people waiting for this verse to be revealed about Aisha?

 

evidence seems overwhelming to indicate it was sent in pieces/revealed in peices. 

Edited September 24 by wmehar2

[Cool 211]

26 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

Unfortunately this verse alone doesn't provide details to the extent if the entire Qur'an was provided or the first revealed verses.  

If you can recite the opening verses of chapter 44, you come to know it is indeed the whole Qur'an which was revealed in laylatul qadr or laylatul mubarakah:

Surah Ad-Dukhan, Verse 2:
وَالْكِتَابِ الْمُبِينِ

I swear by the Book that makes manifest (the truth).
(English - Shakir)

Surah Ad-Dukhan, Verse 3:
إِنَّا أَنزَلْنَاهُ فِي لَيْلَةٍ مُّبَارَكَةٍ إِنَّا كُنَّا مُنذِرِينَ

Surely We revealed it on a blessed night surely We are ever warning--
(English - Shakir)

Surah Ad-Dukhan, Verse 4:
فِيهَا يُفْرَقُ كُلُّ أَمْرٍ حَكِيمٍ

Therein every wise affair is made distinct,
(English - Shakir)

26 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

Please answer my question I really want to understand you here. 

 

1 hour ago, wmehar2 said:

So how do you understand the verse where it says, "this is news of unseen" revealed to Prophet

It was indeed the news of the unseen revealed to Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). But question is when did it revealed? 

It doesn't matter whether Prophet knew it or not, because that very revelation has these clauses too:

Surah Al-Qiyama, Verse 16:
لَا تُحَرِّكْ بِهِ لِسَانَكَ لِتَعْجَلَ بِهِ

Do not move your tongue with it to make haste with it,
(English - Shakir)

Surah Al-Qiyama, Verse 17:
إِنَّ عَلَيْنَا جَمْعَهُ وَقُرْآنَهُ

Surely on Us (devolves) the collecting of it and the reciting of it.
(English - Shakir)

Surah Al-Qiyama, Verse 18:
فَإِذَا قَرَأْنَاهُ فَاتَّبِعْ قُرْآنَهُ

Therefore when We have recited it, follow its recitation.
(English - Shakir)

1 hour ago, wmehar2 said:

if Muhammad didnt know before the verse was revealed then he could not have known before it was revealed. 

I am questioning when it was revealed. Who taught him the Qur'an? Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) or Angel? 

Surah An-Najm, Verse 3:
وَمَا يَنطِقُ عَنِ الْهَوَىٰ

Nor does he speak out of desire.
(English - Shakir)

Surah An-Najm, Verse 4:
إِنْ هُوَ إِلَّا وَحْيٌ يُوحَىٰ

It is naught but revelation that is revealed,
(English - Shakir)

Surah An-Najm, Verse 5:
عَلَّمَهُ شَدِيدُ الْقُوَىٰ

The Lord of Mighty Power has taught him,
(English - Shakir)

[wmehar2 633]

1 hour ago, Cool said:

If you can recite the opening verses of chapter 44, you come to know it is indeed the whole Qur'an which was revealed in laylatul qadr or laylatul mubarakah:

Surah Ad-Dukhan, Verse 2:
وَالْكِتَابِ الْمُبِينِ

I swear by the Book that makes manifest (the truth).
(English - Shakir)

Surah Ad-Dukhan, Verse 3:
إِنَّا أَنزَلْنَاهُ فِي لَيْلَةٍ مُّبَارَكَةٍ إِنَّا كُنَّا مُنذِرِينَ

Surely We revealed it on a blessed night surely We are ever warning--
(English - Shakir)

Surah Ad-Dukhan, Verse 4:
فِيهَا يُفْرَقُ كُلُّ أَمْرٍ حَكِيمٍ

Therein every wise affair is made distinct,
(English - Shakir)

We interpret these different brother. I would also include verse 5.  The plain word by word translation :

44: 2-5

-----------

By the book, the clear

Indeed We revealed it in a night blessed

Indeed We are warning

Therein is made distinct every affair wise

a command from us

Indeed We are sending *******

-----------

I have pondered over this before...... I think I've reasoned it was possible but not likely that it was all revealed all in one night, (which is not really a conclusio) .    But if so it was not absorbed completely.  Ill show you why I think as such.

Firstly I'm not seeing direct statement here ..that it was all revealed in one night.

It begins by saying by the " Book , the clear !"  Like your translation I see that as swearing by it.

Indeed we revealed it on a blessed night (can mean parts or all of it)

Indeed We are warning 

***Therein is made distinct every affair wise a command from us Indeed We are sending ***

I read this as a part of completing the first statement,  "  I swear by the clear book that was revealed on blessed night "  that in the Book is every wise affair/command made distinct .

Simply : Guidance for all affairs distinct,  which are also a command (to obey ).... 

Then... "Indeed we are sending"

Why Is it not "indeed we have sent ?" Why not "indeed we have warned?"

My only conclusion could be the qurans existence was revealed to Muhammad, with the initial verses he recieved. The verses continue to be sent and continue to be as warning. 

 The Qur'an/book preexisted Muhammad, but Muhammad had no knowledge of it per other Qur'an verses.

Along with other verses mentioned here.

If Muhammad was for example, revealed the Qur'an before he was born or when he was born, the statement that "it was not known to me " becomes redundant and unnecessary. So why did Allah command him to say that ?

Therefore , these reasons are sufficient to me that Qur'an was not entirely revealed to Muhammad until the final verse towards end of 23 years.  

Edited September 24 by wmehar2

[Cool 211]

2 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

evidence seems overwhelming to indicate it was sent in pieces/revealed in peices. 

No one can deny its revelation in parts. But no one can deny either its complete revelation in laylatul qadr or laylatul mubarakah.

2 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

24:11

Those who came with the slander are a band of you; do not reckon it evil for you; rather it is good for you. Every man of them shall have the sin that he has earned charged to him; and whosoever of them took upon himself the greater part of it, him there awaits a mighty chastisement.

There is no name of Aisha mentioned in this verse, but you knew it because the history says it was revealed on a specific event. Lets see a verse now:

Surah Al-Furqan, Verse 27:
وَيَوْمَ يَعَضُّ الظَّالِمُ عَلَىٰ يَدَيْهِ يَقُولُ يَا لَيْتَنِي اتَّخَذْتُ مَعَ الرَّسُولِ سَبِيلًا

And the day when the unjust one shall bite his hands saying: O! would that I had taken a way with the Apostle
(English - Shakir)

What do you think, is it in the knowledge of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) who this zalim is? And who is his friend?

Surah Al-Furqan, Verse 28:
يَا وَيْلَتَىٰ لَيْتَنِي لَمْ أَتَّخِذْ فُلَانًا خَلِيلًا

O woe is me! would that I had not taken such a one for a friend!
(English - Shakir)

If your answer is "no", you believe that he don't have knowledge of the book even after its revelation in parts.

 

[wmehar2 633]

5 minutes ago, Cool said:

No one can deny its revelation in parts. But no one can deny either its complete revelation in laylatul qadr or laylatul mubarakah.

Well I'm not entirely opposed.  I reasoned it's either revealed only in stages to Muhammad or ummah, or revealed all on night of al qadr and revealed again in stages but not absorbed all by Muhammad that night.

I cannot find absolutely explicit detail concerning amount revealed on laylatulqadr.

"Indeed we are sending" indicates  present tense not past tense (sent). From chapter 44, so I lean towards only revealed in stages during Muhammad's life.