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5 minutes ago, Jaane Ya Ali said:

Yet you'll find some Shi'I claim that the Prophet (S) and Imam Ali have complete knowledge of the Qur'an since birth. They reach as far as saying that Imam Ali recited the Qur'an the day he was born. Do you believe this?

 I read about it & I can it's possible 

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3 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

Without knowing what I am saying, how can you do scrutiny? 

I have just said that there is a person other than Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) & His Porphet (S) who possess the knowledge of the book (ilmul kitab) and for that I have presented before you a verse. And I have said that the one who possess "some" knowledge of the book are capable of performing supernatural things, and for that I have provided the verse of Qur'an. 

I don't know what happened to you :D after I took the name of Ali ibn Abi Talib (asws). 

How did you determine it was Ali based on the quranic verse? Please clarify 

But wait u just admitted it's based on tafsir and hadith , so quranic verse proves clear identity of that name based on verse alone 

I took a nap it's like 6 am here in Chicago 

Edited by Panzerwaffe

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6 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

أَإِلَهٌ مَّعَ اللَّهِ قَلِيلًا مَّا تَذَكَّرُونَ

27:62 Could there be any divine power besides God? How seldom do you keep this in mind!

There is no ilah except Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), and this is the limit taught to us by Ma'someen (asws). 

An Imam can be a razzaq but there is One Al-Razzaq. An Imam can be a khaliq but Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is Al-Khaliq & Ahsan ul Khliqeen. 

We all are waseelah, when I distribute salaries to my staff,I offer thank to Allah that He has choosen me as wasilah.

Salam alaykum, 

You only refer here possibility, but what goes out the boundaries? 

Edited by Abu Nur

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This is what goes out of boundaries:

وروي عن زرارة أنه قال ، قلت للصادق ـ عليه السلام ـ : ( إن رجلا من ولد عبد الله بن سبأ يقول بالتفويض.
قال ـ عليه السلام ـ : ( وما التفويض ) ؟ قلت : يقول : إن الله عزوجل خلق محمدا صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم وعليا ـ عليه السلام ـ ثم فوض الأمر  إليهما ، فخلقا ، ورزقا ، وأحييا ، وأماتا.
فقال : ( كذب عدو الله ، إذا رجعت إليه فاقرأ عليه الآية التي في سورة الرعد ( أم جعلوا لله شركاء خلقوا كخلقه فتشابه الخلق عليهم قل الله خالق كل شيء وهو الواحد القاهر ) . فانصرفت إلى رجل فأخبرته بما قال الصادق ـ عليه السلام ـ  فكأنما ألقمته حجرا ، أو قال : فكأنما خرس

And it is narrated from Zurarah that he said, I said to Imam al Sadiq (as): “Indeed a man from children of Abdullah ibn Saba professes by tafwidh.” Said [Imam] (as): “And what is tafwidh?” I said: “He says: Indeed Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) created Muhammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) and Ali (عليه السلام), then delegated the command to them, for creation, and to give rizq (sustenance), and to give life, and to give death.” So [Imam (as)] said: “Enemy of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) lied, when you go back to him then recite upon him these ayaat (verses) in Surah al Ra’d (Abdullah Yusuf Ali’s translation): [Or do they assign to God partners who have created (anything) as He has created, so that the creation seemed to them similar? Say: “God is the Creator of all things: He is the One, the Supreme and Irresistible.”] So I turned (went back) to (that) man, then informed him by what Imam al Sadiq (عليه السلام) had said, so it (his reaction) was as if he had swallowed a stone or had become mute/dumb.”

Similarly, Shia Shiekh Sadooq in his, Uyun Akhbar al Redha, Volume 1, Page 219, stated:

حدثنا محمد بن علي ماجيلويه (ره) قال: حدثنا علي بن إبراهيم بن هاشم عن أبيه عن ياسر الخادم قال: قلت للرضا عليه السلام ما تقول في التفويض؟ فقال: إن الله تبارك وتعالى فوض إلى نبيه (ص) أمر دينه فقال: (ما آتيكم الرسول فخذوه وما نهيكم عنه فانتهوا)  فاما الخلق والرزق فلا، ثم قال عليه السلام: إن الله عز وجل يقول: (الله خالق كل شئ) وهو يقول: (الله الذي خلقكم ثم رزقكم ثم يميتكم ثم يحييكم قل هل من شركائكم يفعل من ذلكم من شئ سبحانه وتعالى عما يشركون

Told us Muhammad b. Ali Majiloweh (رضي الله عنه) who said: Told us Ali b. Ibrahim b. Hashim from his father from Yasser the servant who said: I said to Imam al Redha (as): “What do you say about al tafwidh (the belief that Allah has delegated the affairs of creation to His chosen people)?” So [Imam (as)] said: “Indeed Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) delegated to His (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) Prophet command of His (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) religion.” Then [Imam (as)] said: “So take what the Messenger assigns to you, and deny yourselves that which he withholds from you.” (Al Qur’an 59:7), as for the creation and the sustenance, then no.” Then [Imam (as)] said: “Indeed Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) says (in al Qur’an 13:16): “Allah is the Creator of all things”, and He (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) says (in al Qur’an 30:40): “It is God Who has created you: further, He has provided for your sustenance; then He will cause you to die; and again He will give you life. Are there any of your (false) “Partners” who can do any single one of these things? Glory to Him! and high is He above the partners they attribute (to him)!”

---

Now We have a hadith telling us Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) created the Imams (عليه السلام) and the Imams created rest of creation, is that not a delegation? Do you not see that people are playing with fire when it comes to these beliefs:

إِنَّهُ مَنْ يُشْرِكْ بِاللَّهِ فَقَدْ حَرَّمَ اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ الْجَنَّةَ وَمَأْوَاهُ النَّارُ
Surely whoever associates (others) with Allah, then Allah has forbidden to him the garden, and his abode is the fire
  

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6 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

You have this for almost every hadith and almost every authentic historical record. I know whom you want to protect by refusing this historical account. 

If it doesn't make sense,  it most likely didn't happen 

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19 hours ago, Fink said:

I agree and that's basically shirk. The problem I've found with ithna ashirya is that some aspects flirt with shirk. It draws you in unknowingly with thoughts of ghuluu and then you're staring at the edge of tawheed.

Indeed.

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) said:

هُوَ الَّذِى خَلَقَكُمْ مِّنْ نَّفْسٍ وٰحِدَةٍ وَجَعَلَ مِنْهَا زَوْجَهَا لِيَسْكُنَ إِلَيْهَا  ۖ  فَلَمَّا تَغَشّٰىهَا حَمَلَتْ حَمْلًا خَفِيفًا فَمَرَّتْ بِهِۦ  ۖ  فَلَمَّآ أَثْقَلَت دَّعَوَا اللَّهَ رَبَّهُمَا لَئِنْ ءَاتَيْتَنَا صٰلِحًا لَّنَكُونَنَّ مِنَ الشّٰكِرِينَ
"It is He who created you from one soul and created from it its mate that he might dwell in security with her. And when he covers her, she carries a light burden and continues therein. And when it becomes heavy, they both invoke Allah, their Lord, If You should give us a good [child], we will surely be among the grateful."
(QS. Al-A'raaf 7: Verse 189)

فَلَمَّآ ءَاتٰىهُمَا صٰلِحًا جَعَلَا لَهُۥ شُرَكَآءَ فِيمَآ ءَاتٰىهُمَا  ۚ  فَتَعٰلَى اللَّهُ عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ
"But when He gives them a good [child], they ascribe partners to Him concerning that which He has given them. Exalted is Allah above what they associate with Him."
(QS. Al-A'raaf 7: Verse 190)

أَيُشْرِكُونَ مَا لَا يَخْلُقُ شَيْئًا وَهُمْ يُخْلَقُونَ
"Do they associate with Him those who create nothing and they are [themselves] created?"
(QS. Al-A'raaf 7: Verse 191)

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^hes going to say this only applies to the pagans of 7th century Arabia. There is no such thing as shirk when it comes to Ahlul Bayt. Allah and Ahlul Bayt are one. How do you draw lines with those who drew them.

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9 hours ago, Fink said:

Apparently 6 people all  decided to have a fun night out all at once in Mecca. And mashallah they brought an insane person, a dhimmi, a married one , a bachelor and a slave along. 

Do people contemplate what these hadiths are actually saying?

They may have been awaiting judgment. Heads of state are busy. So it would make sense to address the same case at once. As for the differences of each individual. These cases were probably judged all the time. This one was recorded because it stood out. If the hadith is mass transmitted by different chains it most likely did happen. Regardless of our own subjective opinion. Even if it might not have, it's best to take, as the message is sound and there is no objective evidence against it. 

If we apply our "rational" mind to everything then why would Allah tell Noah build a giant boat. We believe it because Qur'an is authentic not because it makes "sense"

Edited by Warilla

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1 hour ago, Abu Nur said:

 

إِنَّهُ مَنْ يُشْرِكْ بِاللَّهِ فَقَدْ حَرَّمَ اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ الْجَنَّةَ وَمَأْوَاهُ النَّارُ
Surely whoever associates (others) with Allah, then Allah has forbidden to him the garden, and his abode is the fire
  

So from "ilmun kitab" & "ilmun min alkitab", you have connected this matter with tafweed.

Brother, What do you say to a dead person who was brought back to life by Prophet Essa ((عليه السلام))? Do you deny that Jesus ((عليه السلام)) gave him the life by the permission of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)? 

Similarly, rad ash-shams was a miracle of Prophet & Imam Ali (peace & blessings of Allah be upon them), shaqq al qamar etc. Would you deny that Prophet or Imam Ali did that?

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1 minute ago, Salsabeel said:

So from "ilmun kitab" & "ilmun min alkitab", you have connected this matter with tafweed.

Brother, What do you say to a dead person who was brought back to life by Prophet Essa ((عليه السلام))? Do you deny that Jesus ((عليه السلام)) gave him the life by the permission of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)? 

Similarly, rad ash-shams was a miracle of Prophet & Imam Ali (peace & blessings of Allah be upon them), shaqq al qamar etc. Would you deny that Prophet or Imam Ali did that?

Christians believe in the miracles of Isa too. However Allah outlines in the Qur'an that they erred by attributing to Isa what was Allah’s. They took Isa as the creator, the sustainer, the all-knowing. Similar to what you believe of the Imams.

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2 hours ago, Panzerwaffe said:

How did you determine it was Ali based on the quranic verse? Please clarify 

Search the historical records, you will find only two names:

1. Imam Ali (asws)

2. Abdullah bin Salam

The second one was nominated by nawasibs to get rid of the fazeelat of Imam Ali (asws)

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2 minutes ago, 786:) said:

Christians believe in the miracles of Isa too. However Allah outlines in the Qur'an that they erred by attributing to Isa what was Allah’s.

I know what Qur'an says about them. It seems to me you need to know a lot.

Surah Aal-e-Imran, Verse 49:

وَرَسُولًا إِلَىٰ بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ أَنِّي قَدْ جِئْتُكُم بِآيَةٍ مِّن رَّبِّكُمْ أَنِّي أَخْلُقُ لَكُم مِّنَ الطِّينِ كَهَيْئَةِ الطَّيْرِ فَأَنفُخُ فِيهِ فَيَكُونُ طَيْرًا بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ وَأُبْرِئُ الْأَكْمَهَ وَالْأَبْرَصَ وَأُحْيِي الْمَوْتَىٰ بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ وَأُنَبِّئُكُم بِمَا تَأْكُلُونَ وَمَا تَدَّخِرُونَ فِي بُيُوتِكُمْ إِنَّ فِي ذَٰلِكَ لَآيَةً لَّكُمْ إِن كُنتُم مُّؤْمِنِينَ

And (make him) an apostle to the children of Israel: That I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, that I determine for you out of dust like the form of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird with Allah's permission and I heal the blind and the leprous, and bring the dead to life with Allah's permission and I inform you of what you should eat and what you should store in your houses; most surely there is a sign in this for you, if you are believers. (English - Shakir) 

"I determine for you" (anni akhluqo lakum)

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12 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

I know what Qur'an says about them. It seems to me you need to know a lot.

Surah Aal-e-Imran, Verse 49:

وَرَسُولًا إِلَىٰ بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ أَنِّي قَدْ جِئْتُكُم بِآيَةٍ مِّن رَّبِّكُمْ أَنِّي أَخْلُقُ لَكُم مِّنَ الطِّينِ كَهَيْئَةِ الطَّيْرِ فَأَنفُخُ فِيهِ فَيَكُونُ طَيْرًا بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ وَأُبْرِئُ الْأَكْمَهَ وَالْأَبْرَصَ وَأُحْيِي الْمَوْتَىٰ بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ وَأُنَبِّئُكُم بِمَا تَأْكُلُونَ وَمَا تَدَّخِرُونَ فِي بُيُوتِكُمْ إِنَّ فِي ذَٰلِكَ لَآيَةً لَّكُمْ إِن كُنتُم مُّؤْمِنِينَ

And (make him) an apostle to the children of Israel: That I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, that I determine for you out of dust like the form of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird with Allah's permission and I heal the blind and the leprous, and bring the dead to life with Allah's permission and I inform you of what you should eat and what you should store in your houses; most surely there is a sign in this for you, if you are believers. (English - Shakir) 

"I determine for you" (anni akhluqo lakum)

Not sure what this proves. No where does it say that Isa was the creator or sustainer. I am looking for Quranic proof that you or I were created by one of the Imams and they give us rizq like you said earlier.

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Just close your eyes, don't read verses like these, otherwise you would become the like of mufawwadah. 

Or the others would call these verses as shirk. Everything which mentions the fazeelat of Ahlul Bayt (asws) is shirk for them.

@Abu Nur, those scholars who have written books on wilayat e takweeniyah haven't seen these ahadith? There is no universal authority of Ahlul Bayt? I request you to please clear your view point as you're a moderator here on shiachat.

 

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Just now, 786:) said:

Not sure what this proves. No where does it say that Isa was the creator or sustainer. 

Qur'an says about Christians "wala taqoolu thalatha". Their invention was the triune which is condemned by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

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2 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

Qur'an says about Christians "wala taqoolu thalatha". Their invention was the triune which is condemned by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

You are basically doing the same thing. Allah, Muhammad and Ahlul Bayt. The Islamic trinity.

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2 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

Search the historical records, you will find only two names:

1. Imam Ali (asws)

2. Abdullah bin Salam

The second one was nominated by nawasibs to get rid of the fazeelat of Imam Ali (asws)

Ok so that's the point all goes back to history tafsir hadith ..on it's own Qur'an does not directly address any such issues 

Btw ibn salam was a charlatan ex rabbi who was a uthmani

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15 hours ago, Panzerwaffe said:

on it's own Qur'an does not directly address any such issues 

Qur'an mentioned one who has knowledge of the book and he is the witness of prophethood of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). Qur'an also mentions the giving of zakat in the state of ruku' without naming anyone. Qur'an has also mentioned those when calamity befalls upon them them say "inna lillahe wa inna elaihe raje'oon" without naming anyone. And we know very well who is the person in these three examples. 

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