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Muslim2010

Hadith Rejectors - Muslim, Hypocrites, etc

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20 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

Ayatullah Tabatabai also discussed beautifully on these verses. 

Have not read his discussion, would be nice if you could put that up as well . 

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5 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

Qur'an mentioned one who has knowledge of the book and he is the witness of prophethood of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). Qur'an also mentions the giving of zakat in the state of ruku' without naming anyone. Qur'an has also mentioned those when calamity befalls upon them them say "inna lillahe wa inna elaihe raje'oon" without naming anyone. And we know very well who is the person in these three examples. 

 

Ok so what? This is a Shia forum. Most of us believe in Ali's status, his noble role in establishing Islam,  and he was the Prophet's right hand man. But im not going to worship him, I'm not going to call out his name for help.

Im not going to lie about him or give him divine attributes. 

 

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2 minutes ago, Fink said:

 

Ok so what? This is a Shia forum. Most of us believe in Ali's status, his noble role in establishing Islam,  and he was the Prophet's right hand man. But im not going to worship him, I'm not going to call out his name for help.

Im not going to lie about him or give him divine attributes. 

 

:hahaha: who told you to worship him or give him divine attributes?

Surah Al-Maeda, Verse 55: إِنَّمَا وَلِيُّكُمُ اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا الَّذِينَ يُقِيمُونَ الصَّلَاةَ وَيُؤْتُونَ الزَّكَاةَ وَهُمْ رَاكِعُونَ Only Allah is your Vali and His Apostle and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow. (English - Shakir) 

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Just now, Salsabeel said:

:hahaha: who told you to worship him or give him divine attributes?

Surah Al-Maeda, Verse 55: إِنَّمَا وَلِيُّكُمُ اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا الَّذِينَ يُقِيمُونَ الصَّلَاةَ وَيُؤْتُونَ الزَّكَاةَ وَهُمْ رَاكِعُونَ Only Allah is your Vali and His Apostle and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow. (English - Shakir) 

Ok good I'm glad we agree :D

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2 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

Another reference from Qur'an is the verse of chapter 18:

فَوَجَدَا عَبْدًا مِّنْ عِبَادِنَا آتَيْنَاهُ رَحْمَةً مِنْ عِندِنَا وَعَلَّمْنَاهُ مِن لَّدُنَّا عِلْمًا
18:65

In this story, the point is when Hazrat Khidr is mentioning the ta'veel of his actions to Prophet Musa ((عليه السلام)) and said the following words in the end:

رَحْمَةً مِّن رَّبِّكَ وَمَا فَعَلْتُهُ عَنْ أَمْرِي
18:82

How he has said that he has not done anything on his own accord? He did hole in the boat, killed a child, repaired a wall, for making hole in the boat he used the word فَأَرَدْتُ (I wished), for killing of child he used the word فَأَرَدْنَا (we desired) and for repairing of wall he used the word فَأَرَادَ رَبُّكَ (Your Lord desired). This is the most interesting event, how the unity in the desires of servant, servant & Lord , and Lord appeared from this blessed verse. And how this divine knowledge helping him to maintain communication with his Lord, that Prophet like Musa ((عليه السلام)) Kaleemullah did not even knew and unable to get smell of it. 

 

Interesting observation with the I, we, He (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)

 

It also demonstrates that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) gives knowledge to whom He (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) wills, when He (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) wills and however much He (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) wills.

It shows Musa's [a] nature in that:

a] He [a] was overcome hence kept breaking the pact of patience

b] He [a] doesn't have ilm-e-ghaib, only that which Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) had given and was yet to give

 

They are all just Allah's (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) abds who must act as or within what has been commanded:

[72:26] The Knower of the unseen! so He does not reveal His secrets to any,

[72:27] Except to him whom He chooses as a messenger; for surely He makes a guard to march before him and after him,

[72:28] So that He may know that they have truly delivered the messages of their Lord, and He encompasses what is with them and He records the number of all things.

 

In the end, All praise is due to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) only.

Fi Amanillah

Edited by Jaane Ya Ali

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On 11/5/2017 at 2:30 PM, power said:

And this verse is very important verse 75:19 Then it will be for us to explain it.

Muhammad does not explain it. Allah explains.

See verses 55:1-2.

Where does it say bring Allah's hadith. When Allah's hadith is Qur'an ?

 

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27 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

Muhammad does not explain it. Allah explains.

See verses 55:1-2.

Where does it say bring Allah's hadith. When Allah's hadith is Qur'an ?

 

I concur Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) explained the holy Qur'an to Prophet Muhammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)@hf) And Rasulillah mission was to explain the divine book to his ummah, in explanation and practicality.  Furthermore, I also agree the holy Qur'an is Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) hadith I do not object to this term, some will say its a book of guidance (2:185) but either way it's fine. 

Now, here is where you and I differ when the issue of hadith concept is discussed.  You disagree with this concept, because your view is; guidance can only can come from the divine book which is true,  However, ill will give you an simple example why hadiths has importance as well. The Qur'an mentions Rasulillah was an excellent role model verse  (33:22) Shia and Sunnis have reliable narration of his conduct which is not illustrated in the holy Qur'an, the purpose of hadiths is to give us a better understanding. 

 

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3 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

Where does it say bring Allah's hadith. When Allah's hadith is Qur'an

It calls Hadith Qudsi that comes from Allah but not mentioned in Qur'an but explained by Prophet Muhammad (pbu)

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11 minutes ago, power said:

The Qur'an mentions Rasulillah was an excellent role model verse  (33:22) Shia and Sunnis have reliable narration of his conduct which is not illustrated in the holy Qur'an, the purpose of hadiths is to give us a better understanding. 

Of course he's an excellent  role model.

That doesn't mean he's the ONLY role model.

That doesn't mean follow his example or else you're forever lost and misguided.

 

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3 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

Of course he's an excellent  role model.

That doesn't mean he's the ONLY role model.

That doesn't mean follow his example or else you're forever lost and misguided.

 

You cannot say, if I followed ONLY Rasulillah excellent conduct that I'll be damned. 

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28 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

That doesn't mean he's the ONLY role model

There are only two personalities whose uswah is mentioned as uswatun hasanah:

1. Prophet Ibrahim (عليه السلام)

2. Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

These two are infact two sides of one coin. How & why? Lets see the uswah of Prophet Ibrahim, what he was asking in his prayers:

Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 129:
رَبَّنَا وَابْعَثْ فِيهِمْ رَسُولًا مِّنْهُمْ يَتْلُو عَلَيْهِمْ آيَاتِكَ وَيُعَلِّمُهُمُ الْكِتَابَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ وَيُزَكِّيهِمْ إِنَّكَ أَنتَ الْعَزِيزُ الْحَكِيمُ

Our Lord! And raise up in them an Apostle from among them who shall recite to them Thy communications and teach them the Book and the wisdom, and purify them; surely Thou art the Mighty, the Wise.
(English - Shakir)

You cannot in anyway, escape from knowing the commands & directives of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), because you have to obey him. How can you obey him when don’t even know his commands & directives?

 

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58 minutes ago, Cool said:

You cannot in anyway, escape from knowing the commands & directives of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), because you have to obey him. How can you obey him when don’t even know his commands & directives

The command and directive to us is to follow Allah's message is it not?

The verse you quoted..tells that we are to be taught the book, and the verses after that talk about those who turn away.

Verse after:

And who would be averse to the religion of Abraham except one who makes a fool of himself. And We had chosen him in this world, and indeed he, in the Hereafter, will be among the righteous

why does Allah give reward to Christians and Jews In Qur'an? They don't follow Sunnah of Muhammad or pray like him. 

Respectfully brother,  you're not answering my question.

the Prophet did not give us a command to follow his sunnah and example nor did the Qur'an.

obeying the Prophets command is NOT the same as being commanded to follow his example.

 

the Prophets example was to follow what was revealed to him per the Quranic verses. The Prophet ONLY followed what was revealed to him ...which is Qur'an.

so the Prophets example sunnah, is... following Qur'an.  

the Prophet gave direction and commands to those who we alive in his time  and some to to a all of us after (see ashtiname of Muhammad) which are specific and preserved as they were written down and singed with his hand. 

However the hadith I don’t have such security  of commands to us who come after the Ansar.

 

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1 hour ago, power said:

You cannot say, if I followed ONLY Rasulillah excellent conduct that I'll be damned. 

Never did.

But if you followed something that has been misrepresented as his example or commands .. yes. There is an issue.

There is a risk hadith are not from the Prophet or are but missing  vital context.

If we see something contradict Qur'an we know there is an issue .   Hadith shouldn't have to explain contradictions that other hadith  have with Qur'an

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Quote

Ayatullah Brujerdi (Taraif al-Maqal 2:380):
To believe in the authenticity of the narrations reported by the Muhammads is impossible, especially with the reports of weak narrators among them. Rather, the weak are far more (than the authentic), whereas the authentic ones in those books are like the white hair on a black cow.

Hurr al-Amili states in Wasa’il ash-Shia:
1) The science of rijal (men) should not be used.
2) The science of rijal in shi’ism was a recent innovation, and elsewhere he states that it was invented because of the Ahlus-Sunnah’s continual criticism of the Shias for not having and following a system for deriving laws from ahadith.
3) If the system was actually applied, very few, if any, Shia ahadith would prove to be sahih (authentic), Hasan (good) or muwathaq (trusted) – and the entire Shia collection of hadith would prove to be weak.

Al-Kulayni in Al-Kafi states:
Nobody can resolve any of the disparities in the traditions of the Imams – may God’s peace be upon them – using his own opinion. Rather [these can only be resolved] according to the methods stated by one of the knowledgeable Imams – may God’s peace be upon him – when he said “Compare them to the book of God. Take whichever of them concurs with the book of God – almighty is he and sublime – and reject whichever of them contradicts the book of God;” and when he said “Abandon whatever concurs with the majority [I.e., Sunnis], for guidance is found in opposing them;” and when he said “Take what is unanimously agreed upon, for there is no [room to] doubt in what is unanimously agreed upon”. However, [despite these methods] we only know a few instances where true resolution is possible. Thus, we find no path more prudent, or easier than to refer the knowledge of all this back to the knowledgeable Imam of our time – may God’s peace be upon him – and to accept the freedom of choice that he gave to us when he said “Any one [hadith] that you act on out of submission is fine”

Ja’far al-Subhani says in al-Rasael al-Arba’ah:
When we read the two books (of Hadith): Wasael al-Shia and Mustadrak al-Wasael for example, we see that there is no chapter or Fiqhi section which is free from conflicting narrations, this has caused some of those who converted to the Imami Madhab to leave it.

The teacher of Shaikh Tusi is said to have left Shiaism as reported in Rasael fi Dirayat al-Hadith by Abu al-Fadl al-Babili and Tahtheeb al-Ahkam:
Then he (al-Tusi) mentions about his teacher Abu al-Hassan al-Harouni al-‘Alawi that he used to believe in the truth (Shia Madhab), and that he took Imamah as his religion, but he left it when he became confused because of the conflicting narrations, and he abandoned the Madhab.

Yusuf al-Bahrani says in al-Hadaeq al-Nadirah:
Only a small amount of the rulings of the religion were known for sure, because their narrations were mixed with the narrations of Taqqiyah, as was admitted by Thiqat al-Islam Muhammad bin Ya’aqoub al-Kulayni may Allah fill his grave with light in his collection al-Kafi.

Hadith = doubts

Qur'an = certainty

Edited by Jaane Rabb

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1 hour ago, Jaane Rabb said:

Hadith = doubts

Qur'an = certainty

هُوَ الَّذِي أَنزَلَ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ مِنْهُ آيَاتٌ مُّحْكَمَاتٌ هُنَّ أُمُّ الْكِتَابِ وَأُخَرُ مُتَشَابِهَاتٌ ۖ فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ فِي قُلُوبِهِمْ زَيْغٌ فَيَتَّبِعُونَ مَا تَشَابَهَ مِنْهُ ابْتِغَاءَ الْفِتْنَةِ وَابْتِغَاءَ تَأْوِيلِهِ ۗ وَمَا يَعْلَمُ تَأْوِيلَهُ إِلَّا اللَّهُ ۗ وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ يَقُولُونَ آمَنَّا بِهِ كُلٌّ مِّنْ عِندِ رَبِّنَا ۗ وَمَا يَذَّكَّرُ إِلَّا أُولُو الْأَلْبَابِ

Shakir

He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding. (3:7)

The above verse necessitates to get the guidance from those who are firmly rooted in knowledge for understanding of the verses of Qur'an. Thus the interpretation of firmly rooted is necessary in addition to the verses of Qur'an. They include the knowledgeable Imams from ahl labaayt (عليه السلام) of the Prophet s.a.aw  after him. Thus the importance of written down sunna, sayings and actions of the Prophet for this interpretation for verses of Qur'an cannot be neglected.

Edited by Muslim2010

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5 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding. (3:7)

The above verse necessitates to get the guidance from those who are firmly rooted in knowledge for understanding of the verses of Qur'an.

But it doesn't? You've only made it seem that way by incorrectly putting the emphasis on a part of the statement. Even clear verses are being distorted to fit a belief, forget about ambiguous ones! The verse is clear:

Allah has revealed the book
Some verses are clear which is the foundation of the book
Other are ambiguous which are used to mislead
Only Allah knows the interpretation of the ambiguous
The firm in knowledge SAY they believe all of it

No where does it say that the firmly rooted know the interpretation of the ambiguous.

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36 minutes ago, Jaane Rabb said:

No where does it say that the firmly rooted know the interpretation of the ambiguous.

هُوَ الَّذِي أَنزَلَ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ مِنْهُ آيَاتٌ مُّحْكَمَاتٌ هُنَّ أُمُّ الْكِتَابِ وَأُخَرُ مُتَشَابِهَاتٌ ۖ فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ فِي قُلُوبِهِمْ زَيْغٌ فَيَتَّبِعُونَ مَا تَشَابَهَ مِنْهُ ابْتِغَاءَ الْفِتْنَةِ وَابْتِغَاءَ تَأْوِيلِهِ ۗ وَمَا يَعْلَمُ تَأْوِيلَهُ إِلَّا اللَّهُ ۗ وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ يَقُولُونَ آمَنَّا بِهِ كُلٌّ مِّنْ عِندِ رَبِّنَا ۗ وَمَا يَذَّكَّرُ إِلَّا أُولُو الْأَلْبَابِ

He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding. (3:7)

The picture is clear in the verse as mentioned below:

"but none knows its interpretation except Allah and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge...."

wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010

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11 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

"but none knows its interpretation except Allah and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge...."

Why are you putting a full stop after "knowledge"? Why are you also enjoining the firmly rooted with Allah when there is a pause between the two statements?

Maybe this will help in aiding a better understanding:

https://www.islamawakened.com/Qur'an/3/7/default.htm

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11 minutes ago, Jaane Rabb said:

Why are you putting a full stop after "knowledge"? Why are you also enjoining the firmly rooted with Allah when there is a pause between the two statements?

You are misunderstood here I have just put the dots inside the quotes to mark the continuation of the verse translation please.

The verse translation is continued as there are knowledgeable Prophets and Imams from Ahl alabayt of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) who are firmly rooted in the knowledge. We do have the city of knowledge and gate to the city of knowledge mentioned in history of Islam to confirm the presence of these firmly rooted in knowledge personalities who know the interpretation of verses.

Edited by Muslim2010

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33 minutes ago, Jaane Rabb said:

I may like to quote the following verse as evidence before I come to respond any further on translations regarding those who are firmly rooted in knowledge for interpretation of the verses of Qur'an:

وَيَقُولُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا لَسْتَ مُرْسَلًا ۚ قُلْ كَفَىٰ بِاللَّهِ شَهِيدًا بَيْنِي وَبَيْنَكُمْ وَمَنْ عِندَهُ عِلْمُ الْكِتَابِ

And those who disbelieve say: You are not a messenger. Say: Allah is sufficient as a witness between me and you and whoever has knowledge of the Book. (13:42)

The one who has knowledge of complete book certainly knows the interpretation of verses of Qur'an  so the view that firmly rooted in knowledge do not know the interpretation of verses of Qur'an is rejected.

Edited by Muslim2010

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23 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

You are misunderstood here I have just put the dots inside the quotes to mark the continuation of the verse translation please

No brother, you have omitted, truncated, cut-out, part of the verse which is what is giving it a different meaning.

Quote

And those who disbelieve say: You are not a messenger. Say: Allah is sufficient as a witness between me and you and whoever has knowledge of the Book

This will derail on to other extensive areas. For example, you will say Imam Ali had the complete knowledge of the Book. But I don't even believe the Prophet had complete knowledge of the Book as demonstrated by numerous verses in the Qur'an. So please, let's not discuss this.

 

Edited by Jaane Rabb

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35 minutes ago, Jaane Rabb said:

. So please, let's not discuss this.

The verse of firm;y rooted in knowledge translation is continued as there are knowledgeable Prophets and Imams from Ahl alabayt of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) who are firmly rooted in the knowledge. We do have the city of knowledge and gate to the city of knowledge mentioned in history of Islam to confirm the presence of these firmly rooted in knowledge personalities who know the interpretation of verses.

the second verse of Qur'an mentions the presence of those who has the knowledge of complete book. their presence confirms that firmly rooted in knowledge and those who have complete knowledge of book certainly know the interpretation of verses.

Just to conclude my words the above is added. thanks for your responses

wasalam

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16 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

Never did.

But if you followed something that has been misrepresented as his example or commands .. yes. There is an issue.

There is a risk hadith are not from the Prophet or are but missing  vital context.

If we see something contradict Qur'an we know there is an issue .   Hadith shouldn't have to explain contradictions that other hadith  have with Qur'an

 Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) in his infinite knowledge was aware of Misrepresentation  that was going to occur in Islam, therefore, it was incumbent upon Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to have guides to guide  his ummah.

Look at what occurred after the death of Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)@hf) it was a calamity, it was the bloodiest event in the history of Islam. Then within 200 years there appeared many different sects who were claiming they are the saved sect.

So having hadith literature gives Muslims a better perspective of true Islam in my humble understanding. 

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3 minutes ago, power said:

 Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) in his infinite knowledge was aware of Misrepresentation  that was going to occur in Islam, therefore, it was incumbent upon Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to have guides to guide  his ummah.

Look at what occurred after the death of Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)@hf) it was a calamity, it was the bloodiest event in the history of Islam. Then within 200 years there appeared many different sects who were claiming they are the saved sect.

So having hadith literature gives Muslims a better perspective of true Islam in my humble understanding. 

I argue those who understand that even among Muslims that have differing interpretations  ..regardless don’t  call themselves or the other group ..."the saved" or "damned" sect, and protect each other knowing Allah will settle their dispute. And act as one,  that those are among  those of possesed minds:

 

It is He who sent down upon thee the Book, wherein are verses clear that are the Essence of the Book, and others ambiguous. As for those in whose hearts is swerving, they follow the ambiguous part, desiring dissension, and desiring its interpretation; and none knows its interpretation, save only God. And those firmly rooted in knowledge say, 'We believe in it; all is from our Lord'; yet none remembers, but men possessed of minds.

 

That these are Muslims.

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19 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

The command and directive to us is to follow Allah's message is it not?

Who would interpret, explain & teach the divine message? 

The verse quoted clearly mentions Prophetic mission as:

1. Recite the verses

2. Teach book & wisdom

3. Purify us

Now you continue to insist whatever you believe in just to reject ahadith.

19 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

why does Allah give reward to Christians and Jews In Qur'an? They don't follow Sunnah of Muhammad or pray like him. 

Respectfully brother,  you're not answering my question.

Reward will be given to every Christian or Jew? Or will it be given only to those who followed the teachings of Prophet Musa (عليه السلام) & Jesus (عليه السلام) in true letter & spirit? 

Your this question itself mentioning the significance of teachings of Prophets.

19 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

the Prophet did not give us a command to follow his sunnah and example nor did the Qur'an.

How can you know what Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) commanded while you reject every hadith?  Should I quote ahadith in which he has commanded us to follow what and to cling to what after him? 

About Qur'an the following verses are sufficient:

Surah Aal-e-Imran, Verse 31:
قُلْ إِن كُنتُمْ تُحِبُّونَ اللَّهَ فَاتَّبِعُونِي يُحْبِبْكُمُ اللَّهُ وَيَغْفِرْ لَكُمْ ذُنُوبَكُمْ وَاللَّهُ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ

Say: If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
(English - Shakir)

59:7) وَمَا آتَاكُمُ الرَّسُولُ فَخُذُوهُ وَمَا نَهَاكُمْ عَنْهُ فَانتَهُوا 

(And whatever Prophet gives you, accept it, and from whatever he forbids you, keep back)

The above verse alone is sufficient for understanding the need to know the commands & directives of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). what actually he gave to us or recommended for us & what he forbid.

Again proved that you cannot escape from knowing the commands & directives of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

19 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

the Prophet gave direction and commands to those who we alive in his time  and some to to a all of us after (see ashtiname of Muhammad) which are specific and preserved as they were written down and singed with his hand. 

He gave command in ghadeer "man kunto mowla fahatha Aliyyun mowla" , he also said (read these directives in light of verse 59:7 as well as 3:31) " inni tarikun fekumththaqalayn, kitab Allahe wa itrate Ahle bayti". He also said the example of my Ahlul Bayt is like the arc of Noah.... etc. 

All these ahadith are mutawatir, reached to us through solid chain of narrators, narrated by those who have listened these words directly from Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). 

How can you and I ignore these commands & directives? 

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2 hours ago, Cool said:

How can you know what Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) commanded while you reject every hadith?  Should I quote ahadith in which he has commanded us to follow what and to cling to what after him? 

Because these hadith cannot be proven 100% 

It is assumption to follow them.

Anything that contradicts Qur'an cannot be good hadith.

The Qur'an explicitly states what source /HADITH  using the literal word hadith, will you take after mine?  My Hadith is best!

 

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6 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

Anything that contradicts Qur'an cannot be good hadith.

Anything that contradicts Qur'an, cannot be a hadith at all according to our belief.

6 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

The Qur'an explicitly states what source /HADITH  using the literal word hadith, will you take after mine?  My Hadith is best!

The focal person of that Hadith is Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) himself. With his lips, the divine message reached to us. 

8 hours ago, Cool said:

And whatever Prophet gives you, accept it, and from whatever he forbids you, keep back)

This as well as that:

Surah An-Najm, Verse 3:
وَمَا يَنطِقُ عَنِ الْهَوَىٰ

Nor does he speak out of desire.
(English - Shakir)

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12 hours ago, Jaane Rabb said:

Why are you putting a full stop after "knowledge"? Why are you also enjoining the firmly rooted with Allah when there is a pause between the two statements?

Maybe this will help in aiding a better understanding:

https://www.islamawakened.com/Qur'an/3/7/default.htm

@Muslim2010

"Those of understanding" I feel we are differing here guys. 

@Jaane Rabb and I need to know how do you know who those people of understanding are.  He and I are reading with the same perspective yet completely align oN what we think it means without 3rd reference. 

Please provide us from Qur'an how do we know with as little room for assumption as possible. 

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2 minutes ago, Cool said:

The focal person of that Hadith is Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) himself. With his lips, the divine message reached to us. 

8 hours ago, Cool said:

And whatever Prophet gives you, accept it, and from whatever he forbids you, keep back)

This as well as that:

Surah An-Najm, Verse 3:
وَمَا يَنطِقُ عَنِ الْهَوَىٰ

Nor does he speak out of desire.
(English - Shakir)

Of course when he speaks Qur'an!

Man were in circles here lolol.

The focal person of hadith is the transmitter and chain not the Prophet!  In all cases!  

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2 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

Man were in circles here lolol.

The focal person of hadith is the transmitter and chain not the Prophet!  In all cases!  

I was talking about Qur'an, thats why said "that hadith" which revealed to Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and reached to us through him. 

2 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

Of course when he speaks Qur'an!

Again I need to quote 59:7, there is no such clause that take from him whatever he was giving you from revelation or give you after verfication through revelation. 

2 hours ago, Cool said:

And whatever Prophet gives you, accept it, and from whatever he forbids you, keep back)

It is a clear command. So accoding to his mission, he either recite divine words, or either teach us the book & the wisdom (here teachings would include theory & practical both), or either command/ direct us towards the means of purification of self. 

Nothing else, his whole life is a role model for us. Whatever he said and whatever he did both, which can be confirmed with Qur'an or which are in line with the verses of Qur'an.

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20 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

The verse of firm;y rooted in knowledge translation is continued as there are knowledgeable Prophets and Imams from Ahl alabayt of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) who are firmly rooted in the knowledge. We do have the city of knowledge and gate to the city of knowledge mentioned in history of Islam to confirm the presence of these firmly rooted in knowledge personalities who know the interpretation of verses.

I disagree with your interpretation of that verse. You are missing key points because you stop reading the verse after the word "knowledge". This is how it should be read

Literal [word by word translation] - https://www.islamawakened.com/Qur'an/3/7/default.htm

Statement #1 "And none knows its interpretation except Allah,"

Statement #2 "And those firm in [the] knowledge, they say, "We believe in it. All (is) from near our Lord." And not will take heed except those people of intelligence."

Tabatabai also disagrees with your interpretation:

Quote

The restriction, ‘‘none . . . except’’, apparently means that the knowledge of its interpretation is restricted to Allāh. The word, ‘‘and’’, in the next words, ‘‘and those firmly rooted in knowledge’’ is to begin a new sentence; and this new sentence describes the state of the second category which is in clear contrast with the first one, ‘‘those in whose hearts there is perversity’’. People, in their acceptance of the Book, are of two categories; those who follow the ambiguous part of the Qur’ān, and those who, when coming to such a verse, say, ‘‘We believe in it, it is all from our Lord’’. And what is the basis of this difference? It is the perversity of the hearts, on one side, and firmly rooted knowledge, on the other. The word, ‘‘and’’, in ‘‘and those firmly rooted in knowledge ...’’ is not a conjunctive, that is, it does not say that ‘‘those firmly rooted in knowledge’’ know, as Allāh does, the interpretation of the ambiguous verses. Had it been so, the Apostle of Allāh ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).a.) would certainly have been one of them; rather he would be the first and foremost of them — it is unthinkable that the Qur’ān was revealed to him and he did not know what it meant! And, as mentioned in volume 4 (Eng. transl. p.320), whenever the Qur’ān mentions a group or describes the virtue of a people and the Apostle is among them, it invariably always mentions his name separately and first of all, and then the whole group is mentioned together. This protocol maintains the dignity and prestige of the Apostle.

 

Quote

the second verse of Qur'an mentions the presence of those who has the knowledge of complete book. their presence confirms that firmly rooted in knowledge and those who have complete knowledge of book certainly know the interpretation of verses.

I don't believe the Prophet himself had complete knowledge of the Book. And he is the foundation right, none can be above him from his ummah. Thus I don't believe anyone else had complete knowledge of the book either. My reasoning for such belief can be seen here:

 

Someone also mentioned "those firmly rooted" in there and their interpretation was challenged:

 

Edited by Jaane Rabb

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22 hours ago, Jaane Rabb said:

 But I don't even believe the Prophet had complete knowledge of the Book as demonstrated by numerous verses in the Qur'an. 

 

Start doing the "itteba' of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) 

 أَفَمَن يَهْدِي إِلَى الْحَقِّ أَحَقُّ أَن يُتَّبَعَ أَمَّن لاَّ يَهِدِّيَ إِلاَّ أَن يُهْدَى فَمَا لَكُمْ كَيْفَ تَحْكُمُونَ

10:35

And with this believe of yours, perhaps you believe too that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) made a mistake (nauzobillah) that He has sent one as a teacher who himself don't have the knowledge of the book. 

(وَيُعَلِّمُهُمُ الْكِتَابَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ 62:2
 

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1 hour ago, Jaane Rabb said:

"And none knows its interpretation except Allah,"

Do you claim that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) never share his knowledge of the book with any of his servant? 

الرَّحْمَٰنُ {1}

عَلَّمَ الْقُرْآنَ {2}

(A'allama Al-Qur'an) Why it is not said that allama bad al-qur'an or allama muhkamat ul qur'an? Allama Al-Qur'an means teaching of complete knowledge of the book. 
That should be enough!

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3 hours ago, Logic1234 said:

Start doing the "itteba' of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) 

 أَفَمَن يَهْدِي إِلَى الْحَقِّ أَحَقُّ أَن يُتَّبَعَ أَمَّن لاَّ يَهِدِّيَ إِلاَّ أَن يُهْدَى فَمَا لَكُمْ كَيْفَ تَحْكُمُونَ

10:35

And with this believe of yours, perhaps you believe too that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) made a mistake (nauzobillah) that He has sent one as a teacher who himself don't have the knowledge of the book. 

(وَيُعَلِّمُهُمُ الْكِتَابَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ 62:2
 

10:35: Say, "Are there of your 'partners' any who guides to the truth?" Say, "Allah guides to the truth. So is He who guides to the truth more worthy to be followed or he who guides not unless he is guided? Then what is [wrong] with you - how do you judge?"

Fail to see how this verse proves the Prophet (S) had complete knowledge of the Book. The bold part is actually very profound if one gives it much thought...

 

62:2: It is He who has sent among the unlettered a Messenger from themselves reciting to them His verses and purifying them and teaching them the Book and wisdom - although they were before in clear error -

Doesn't mean he had complete knowledge either. The Prophet taught as and when he received revelation via Gibrael and/or inspiration. Makes zero sense for someone who already has knowledge of the book, to then be receiving revelation through Gibrael.

Other verses such as 11:49, 12:3, 4:164, also make clear that the Prophet didn't have complete knowledge but acquired whilst into the Prophetic mission. e.g.

"That is from the news of the unseen which We reveal to you, [O Muhammad]. You knew it not, neither you nor your people, before this."

 

3 hours ago, Logic1234 said:

Do you claim that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) never share his knowledge of the book with any of his servant? 

No. Please comment in context of the discussion surrounding verse 3:7 which is being misconstrued through truncation of a key point.

 

Quote

(A'allama Al-Qur'an) Why it is not said that allama bad al-qur'an or allama muhkamat ul qur'an? Allama Al-Qur'an means teaching of complete knowledge of the book. 
That should be enough!

Completely ambiguous. He could have taught it to Gibrael, the one entrusted with delivering the revelation to Muhammad (S).

The Qur'an doesn't contradict. But you are contradicting clear verses above to hold the belief that the Prophet had complete knowledge of the book [since birth or before even?]. The fact that Gibrael brought revelation to the Prophet is enough to question that belief.

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