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31 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

Are you asking me to show you the limits of created beings?

If anyone claims to be a creator of this whole universe, he cannot do it except with the and by the powers & permission granted to him by the One who is Supreme in knowledge & power. 

There is a line between sound and ghulat belief. What is the definition that make people to cross to the ghulat side. When it comes to Imams (عليه السلام) history show there have been many people who went too far in their belief of Imams and such belief can be found in our narrations. So which one you think its too far and which one is not. 

To say that it is possible is not really beneficial answer. 

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19 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

Six persons, accused of adultery, were produced before the then caliph, Umar bin Khattab. At once he sentenced them to flogging, each of them with a hundred stripes. When Ali pointed out to him that his judgement was in contravention of the divine law, Umar requested him to give his own judgement.

Ali said:

Execute the first.

Stone to death the second.

Punish the third with a hundred stripes.

Punish the fourth with fifty stripes. Warn the fifth and set him free.

Set the sixth free without any penalty.

All wondered as to why Ali gave a different verdict for each of the 6 persons tried for the same crime.

Ali explained:

The first is a dhimmi, a disbeliever under the protection of the Muslim state, who committed the crime of adultery with a believing woman, and having violated the law of Islam has ceased to be a dhimmi, therefore he must be executed.

The second is a married man whose punishment is stoning to death.

The third is to be flogged with a hundred stripes because he is a bachelor.

The fourth is a slave, so fifty stripes is his punishment .

The fifth has only been warned because he was caught in the crime inadvertently.

The sixth is insane, so the law cannot be applied on him.

Then Umar said:

"Had there not been Ali, Umar would have perished."

Apparently 6 people all  decided to have a fun night out all at once in Mecca. And mashallah they brought an insane person, a dhimmi, a married one , a bachelor and a slave along. 

Do people contemplate what these hadiths are actually saying?

Edited by Fink

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1 minute ago, Abu Nur said:

So which one you think its too far and which one is not. 

To say that it is possible is not really beneficial answer. 

أَإِلَهٌ مَّعَ اللَّهِ قَلِيلًا مَّا تَذَكَّرُونَ

27:62 Could there be any divine power besides God? How seldom do you keep this in mind!

There is no ilah except Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), and this is the limit taught to us by Ma'someen (asws). 

An Imam can be a razzaq but there is One Al-Razzaq. An Imam can be a khaliq but Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is Al-Khaliq & Ahsan ul Khliqeen. 

We all are waseelah, when I distribute salaries to my staff,I offer thank to Allah that He has choosen me as wasilah.

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3 minutes ago, Fink said:

Apparently 6 people all  decided to have a fun night out all at once in Mecca. And mashallah they brought an insane person, a dhimmi, a married one , a bachelor and a slave along. 

Do people contemplate what these hadiths are actually saying?

I think you are not well aware of Islamic history, its full of fun. 

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8 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

أَإِلَهٌ مَّعَ اللَّهِ قَلِيلًا مَّا تَذَكَّرُونَ

27:62 Could there be any divine power besides God? How seldom do you keep this in mind!

There is no ilah except Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), and this is the limit taught to us by Ma'someen (asws). 

An Imam can be a razzaq but there is One Al-Razzaq. An Imam can be a khaliq but Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is Al-Khaliq & Ahsan ul Khliqeen. 

We all are waseelah, when I distribute salaries to my staff,I offer thank to Allah that He has choosen me as wasilah.

Sounds oddly like the religion of the Arabs before Islam.

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20 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

I think you are not well aware of Islamic history, its full of fun. 

No dude 6 people were not all caught having sex in the open in Mecca all seen by 4 witnesses. Just no. 

And on top of that they were quite a variety, a dhimmi, a bachelor, a married man, a slave, an insane and one caught by accident (whatever that means). 

And mashallah they were all men, where's the women? 

This is a good example of how wicked hadiths are. 

Even in today's western societies this doesn't happen lol

Edited by Fink

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1 hour ago, 786:) said:

Sounds oddly like the religion of the Arabs before Islam.

:) There were pure muwahhid existed in Arabs before Islam who never ever worshiped any idol and among them were those about whom people like you claim that they are in hell. I am well aware of your e-marjaa reformist :party:

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2 hours ago, Fink said:

No dude 6 people were not all caught having sex in the open in Mecca all seen by 4 witnesses. Just no. 

And on top of that they were quite a variety, a dhimmi, a bachelor, a married man, a slave, an insane and one caught by accident (whatever that means). 

And mashallah they were all men, where's the women? 

This is a good example of how wicked hadiths are. 

Even in today's western societies this doesn't happen lol

Quote

Sounds oddly like the religion of the Arabs before Islam.

@786:)same as it happens for women by ISIS soldiers under supervision & verifying Saudi moftis under names of Jihad Nikah & etc that they were raping a woman in one night as a group  that it was a norm between them ,so when it happens in our time it can be happens by by people that were still new to Islam &  had strong connection to  infidelity time , the ISIS members revived all banned pre-Islamic actions by taking fatwas from wahabi moftis specially Saudi moftis but you closed your eyes to their actions & blame us same as  their language & calling everything shirk & blasphemy 

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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2 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

Am I proving infallibility??? Where you got this idea from??? 

Whatever u are trying to prove relies on a extra quranic source so it's open to scrutiny and interpretation 

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1 minute ago, Panzerwaffe said:

Whatever u are trying to prove relies on a extra quranic source so it's open to scrutiny and interpretation 

Without knowing what I am saying, how can you do scrutiny? 

I have just said that there is a person other than Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) & His Porphet (S) who possess the knowledge of the book (ilmul kitab) and for that I have presented before you a verse. And I have said that the one who possess "some" knowledge of the book are capable of performing supernatural things, and for that I have provided the verse of Qur'an. 

I don't know what happened to you :D after I took the name of Ali ibn Abi Talib (asws). 

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50 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

Without knowing what I am saying, how can you do scrutiny? 

I have just said that there is a person other than Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) & His Porphet (S) who possess the knowledge of the book (ilmul kitab) and for that I have presented before you a verse. And I have said that the one who possess "some" knowledge of the book are capable of performing supernatural things, and for that I have provided the verse of Qur'an. 

I don't know what happened to you :D after I took the name of Ali ibn Abi Talib (asws). 

Until it's not established how much knowledge the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) himself had in light of the Quranic verses posted in https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235060985-Prophets-knowledge-of-the-Qur'an/ - it's pointless trying to prove how much the Ahlul Bayt knew. One thing is for sure, the Ahlul Bayt couldn't have known more than the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

It's also becoming apparent that verses that supposedly meet your beliefs are to be taken at face value, but any other verses (even clear ones) need interpretation via extraneous sources. This is unfair behaviour; One that would fit the Qur'an to one's belief when it should be the other way round.

Fi Amanillah

 

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13 minutes ago, Jaane Ya Ali said:

Until it's not established how much knowledge the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) himself had in light of the Quranic verses posted in https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235060985-Prophets-knowledge-of-the-Qur'an/ - it's pointless trying to prove how much the Ahlul Bayt knew

lol, the same line of reasoning, did Asif bin Barqiyah who have "some knowledge of the book" (ilmun min alkitab) brought the throne within blink of an eye or not? 

The person who have "complete knowledge of the book" (ilm ulkitab) can do supernatural things or not? 

:D What has happened!!!! @Jaane Ya Ali, have you picked wrong name for yourself or are you unable to hide behind that name?
 

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49 minutes ago, Jaane Ya Ali said:

One thing is for sure, the Ahlul Bayt couldn't have known more than the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

it's true & every body agrees to it but only way to reach his knowledge is through Imam Ali(عليه السلام) that Prophet Muhammad (pbu) said " I'm city of knowledge & Ali is it's door (gate)" that completely accepted by Sunni sources & Imam Ali (عليه السلام) confirmed in Nahjul balagha that he learnt everything from Prophet Muhammad (pbu) that in the end was saw / hear what he was Prophet was saw & hear and that knowledges leads to learning further knowledges but source of all of his knowledges was Prophet (pbu) that he was taken it from Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) through angel Jibraeil (عليه السلام)   but later Sunni sources tried to relate 2 caliphs with forging that they are roof & wall of city of knowledge .

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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1 hour ago, Salsabeel said:

lol, the same line of reasoning, did Asif bin Barqiyah who have "some knowledge of the book" (ilmun min alkitab) brought the throne within blink of an eye or not? 

The person who have "complete knowledge of the book" (ilm ulkitab) can do supernatural things or not? 

:D What has happened!!!! @Jaane Ya Ali, have you picked wrong name for yourself or are you unable to hide behind that name?
 

We can discuss who had complete knowledge of the Qur'an and when in the thread already linked.

My views have shifted since account creation. I seek the ultimate truth, whatever that may be, through critique, reflection and the Qur'an; The criteria [furkaan]. I am not satisfied with beliefs through assumption. Everyone who is spoon fed a religion grow up believing it to be the truth. That is unacceptable for me.

Alas, I await a reply from the mods as to my username change request. InshaAllah soon you won't have to speculate as to my hiding/hypocrisy :)

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1 hour ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

it's true & every body agrees to it but only way to reach his knowledge is through Imam Ali(عليه السلام) that Prophet Muhammad (pbu) said " I'm city of knowledge & Ali is it's door (gate)" that completely accepted by Sunni sources & Imam Ali (عليه السلام) confirmed in Nahjul balagha that he learnt everything from Prophet Muhammad (pbu) that in the end was saw / hear what he was Prophet was saw & hear and that knowledges leads to learning further knowledges but source of all of his knowledges was Prophet (pbu) that he was taken it from Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) through angel Jibraeil (عليه السلام)   but later Sunni sources tried to relate 2 caliphs with forging that they are roof & wall of city of knowledge .

I agree with this brother. That the Prophet (S) got his knowledge through revelation brought by Gibrael [and maybe even through inspiration] and Imam Ali learnt this knowledge from the Prophet (S). This view is also compatible with the Quranic verses.

Yet you'll find some Shi'I claim that the Prophet (S) and Imam Ali have complete knowledge of the Qur'an since birth. They reach as far as saying that Imam Ali recited the Qur'an the day he was born. Do you believe this?

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