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Hadith Rejectors - Muslim, Hypocrites, etc

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2 hours ago, Fink said:

No dude 6 people were not all caught having sex in the open in Mecca all seen by 4 witnesses. Just no. 

And on top of that they were quite a variety, a dhimmi, a bachelor, a married man, a slave, an insane and one caught by accident (whatever that means). 

And mashallah they were all men, where's the women? 

This is a good example of how wicked hadiths are. 

Even in today's western societies this doesn't happen lol

Quote

Sounds oddly like the religion of the Arabs before Islam.

@786:)same as it happens for women by ISIS soldiers under supervision & verifying Saudi moftis under names of Jihad Nikah & etc that they were raping a woman in one night as a group  that it was a norm between them ,so when it happens in our time it can be happens by by people that were still new to Islam &  had strong connection to  infidelity time , the ISIS members revived all banned pre-Islamic actions by taking fatwas from wahabi moftis specially Saudi moftis but you closed your eyes to their actions & blame us same as  their language & calling everything shirk & blasphemy 

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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2 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

Am I proving infallibility??? Where you got this idea from??? 

Whatever u are trying to prove relies on a extra quranic source so it's open to scrutiny and interpretation 

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1 minute ago, Panzerwaffe said:

Whatever u are trying to prove relies on a extra quranic source so it's open to scrutiny and interpretation 

Without knowing what I am saying, how can you do scrutiny? 

I have just said that there is a person other than Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) & His Porphet (S) who possess the knowledge of the book (ilmul kitab) and for that I have presented before you a verse. And I have said that the one who possess "some" knowledge of the book are capable of performing supernatural things, and for that I have provided the verse of Qur'an. 

I don't know what happened to you :D after I took the name of Ali ibn Abi Talib (asws). 

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50 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

Without knowing what I am saying, how can you do scrutiny? 

I have just said that there is a person other than Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) & His Porphet (S) who possess the knowledge of the book (ilmul kitab) and for that I have presented before you a verse. And I have said that the one who possess "some" knowledge of the book are capable of performing supernatural things, and for that I have provided the verse of Qur'an. 

I don't know what happened to you :D after I took the name of Ali ibn Abi Talib (asws). 

Until it's not established how much knowledge the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) himself had in light of the Quranic verses posted in https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235060985-Prophets-knowledge-of-the-Qur'an/ - it's pointless trying to prove how much the Ahlul Bayt knew. One thing is for sure, the Ahlul Bayt couldn't have known more than the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

It's also becoming apparent that verses that supposedly meet your beliefs are to be taken at face value, but any other verses (even clear ones) need interpretation via extraneous sources. This is unfair behaviour; One that would fit the Qur'an to one's belief when it should be the other way round.

Fi Amanillah

 

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13 minutes ago, Jaane Ya Ali said:

Until it's not established how much knowledge the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) himself had in light of the Quranic verses posted in https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235060985-Prophets-knowledge-of-the-Qur'an/ - it's pointless trying to prove how much the Ahlul Bayt knew

lol, the same line of reasoning, did Asif bin Barqiyah who have "some knowledge of the book" (ilmun min alkitab) brought the throne within blink of an eye or not? 

The person who have "complete knowledge of the book" (ilm ulkitab) can do supernatural things or not? 

:D What has happened!!!! @Jaane Ya Ali, have you picked wrong name for yourself or are you unable to hide behind that name?
 

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49 minutes ago, Jaane Ya Ali said:

One thing is for sure, the Ahlul Bayt couldn't have known more than the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

it's true & every body agrees to it but only way to reach his knowledge is through Imam Ali(عليه السلام) that Prophet Muhammad (pbu) said " I'm city of knowledge & Ali is it's door (gate)" that completely accepted by Sunni sources & Imam Ali (عليه السلام) confirmed in Nahjul balagha that he learnt everything from Prophet Muhammad (pbu) that in the end was saw / hear what he was Prophet was saw & hear and that knowledges leads to learning further knowledges but source of all of his knowledges was Prophet (pbu) that he was taken it from Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) through angel Jibraeil (عليه السلام)   but later Sunni sources tried to relate 2 caliphs with forging that they are roof & wall of city of knowledge .

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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1 hour ago, Salsabeel said:

lol, the same line of reasoning, did Asif bin Barqiyah who have "some knowledge of the book" (ilmun min alkitab) brought the throne within blink of an eye or not? 

The person who have "complete knowledge of the book" (ilm ulkitab) can do supernatural things or not? 

:D What has happened!!!! @Jaane Ya Ali, have you picked wrong name for yourself or are you unable to hide behind that name?
 

We can discuss who had complete knowledge of the Qur'an and when in the thread already linked.

My views have shifted since account creation. I seek the ultimate truth, whatever that may be, through critique, reflection and the Qur'an; The criteria [furkaan]. I am not satisfied with beliefs through assumption. Everyone who is spoon fed a religion grow up believing it to be the truth. That is unacceptable for me.

Alas, I await a reply from the mods as to my username change request. InshaAllah soon you won't have to speculate as to my hiding/hypocrisy :)

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1 hour ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

it's true & every body agrees to it but only way to reach his knowledge is through Imam Ali(عليه السلام) that Prophet Muhammad (pbu) said " I'm city of knowledge & Ali is it's door (gate)" that completely accepted by Sunni sources & Imam Ali (عليه السلام) confirmed in Nahjul balagha that he learnt everything from Prophet Muhammad (pbu) that in the end was saw / hear what he was Prophet was saw & hear and that knowledges leads to learning further knowledges but source of all of his knowledges was Prophet (pbu) that he was taken it from Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) through angel Jibraeil (عليه السلام)   but later Sunni sources tried to relate 2 caliphs with forging that they are roof & wall of city of knowledge .

I agree with this brother. That the Prophet (S) got his knowledge through revelation brought by Gibrael [and maybe even through inspiration] and Imam Ali learnt this knowledge from the Prophet (S). This view is also compatible with the Quranic verses.

Yet you'll find some Shi'I claim that the Prophet (S) and Imam Ali have complete knowledge of the Qur'an since birth. They reach as far as saying that Imam Ali recited the Qur'an the day he was born. Do you believe this?

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5 minutes ago, Jaane Ya Ali said:

Yet you'll find some Shi'I claim that the Prophet (S) and Imam Ali have complete knowledge of the Qur'an since birth. They reach as far as saying that Imam Ali recited the Qur'an the day he was born. Do you believe this?

 I read about it & I can it's possible 

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3 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

Without knowing what I am saying, how can you do scrutiny? 

I have just said that there is a person other than Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) & His Porphet (S) who possess the knowledge of the book (ilmul kitab) and for that I have presented before you a verse. And I have said that the one who possess "some" knowledge of the book are capable of performing supernatural things, and for that I have provided the verse of Qur'an. 

I don't know what happened to you :D after I took the name of Ali ibn Abi Talib (asws). 

How did you determine it was Ali based on the quranic verse? Please clarify 

But wait u just admitted it's based on tafsir and hadith , so quranic verse proves clear identity of that name based on verse alone 

I took a nap it's like 6 am here in Chicago 

Edited by Panzerwaffe

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6 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

أَإِلَهٌ مَّعَ اللَّهِ قَلِيلًا مَّا تَذَكَّرُونَ

27:62 Could there be any divine power besides God? How seldom do you keep this in mind!

There is no ilah except Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), and this is the limit taught to us by Ma'someen (asws). 

An Imam can be a razzaq but there is One Al-Razzaq. An Imam can be a khaliq but Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is Al-Khaliq & Ahsan ul Khliqeen. 

We all are waseelah, when I distribute salaries to my staff,I offer thank to Allah that He has choosen me as wasilah.

Salam alaykum, 

You only refer here possibility, but what goes out the boundaries? 

Edited by Abu Nur

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This is what goes out of boundaries:

وروي عن زرارة أنه قال ، قلت للصادق ـ عليه السلام ـ : ( إن رجلا من ولد عبد الله بن سبأ يقول بالتفويض.
قال ـ عليه السلام ـ : ( وما التفويض ) ؟ قلت : يقول : إن الله عزوجل خلق محمدا صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم وعليا ـ عليه السلام ـ ثم فوض الأمر  إليهما ، فخلقا ، ورزقا ، وأحييا ، وأماتا.
فقال : ( كذب عدو الله ، إذا رجعت إليه فاقرأ عليه الآية التي في سورة الرعد ( أم جعلوا لله شركاء خلقوا كخلقه فتشابه الخلق عليهم قل الله خالق كل شيء وهو الواحد القاهر ) . فانصرفت إلى رجل فأخبرته بما قال الصادق ـ عليه السلام ـ  فكأنما ألقمته حجرا ، أو قال : فكأنما خرس

And it is narrated from Zurarah that he said, I said to Imam al Sadiq (as): “Indeed a man from children of Abdullah ibn Saba professes by tafwidh.” Said [Imam] (as): “And what is tafwidh?” I said: “He says: Indeed Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) created Muhammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) and Ali (عليه السلام), then delegated the command to them, for creation, and to give rizq (sustenance), and to give life, and to give death.” So [Imam (as)] said: “Enemy of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) lied, when you go back to him then recite upon him these ayaat (verses) in Surah al Ra’d (Abdullah Yusuf Ali’s translation): [Or do they assign to God partners who have created (anything) as He has created, so that the creation seemed to them similar? Say: “God is the Creator of all things: He is the One, the Supreme and Irresistible.”] So I turned (went back) to (that) man, then informed him by what Imam al Sadiq (عليه السلام) had said, so it (his reaction) was as if he had swallowed a stone or had become mute/dumb.”

Similarly, Shia Shiekh Sadooq in his, Uyun Akhbar al Redha, Volume 1, Page 219, stated:

حدثنا محمد بن علي ماجيلويه (ره) قال: حدثنا علي بن إبراهيم بن هاشم عن أبيه عن ياسر الخادم قال: قلت للرضا عليه السلام ما تقول في التفويض؟ فقال: إن الله تبارك وتعالى فوض إلى نبيه (ص) أمر دينه فقال: (ما آتيكم الرسول فخذوه وما نهيكم عنه فانتهوا)  فاما الخلق والرزق فلا، ثم قال عليه السلام: إن الله عز وجل يقول: (الله خالق كل شئ) وهو يقول: (الله الذي خلقكم ثم رزقكم ثم يميتكم ثم يحييكم قل هل من شركائكم يفعل من ذلكم من شئ سبحانه وتعالى عما يشركون

Told us Muhammad b. Ali Majiloweh (رضي الله عنه) who said: Told us Ali b. Ibrahim b. Hashim from his father from Yasser the servant who said: I said to Imam al Redha (as): “What do you say about al tafwidh (the belief that Allah has delegated the affairs of creation to His chosen people)?” So [Imam (as)] said: “Indeed Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) delegated to His (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) Prophet command of His (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) religion.” Then [Imam (as)] said: “So take what the Messenger assigns to you, and deny yourselves that which he withholds from you.” (Al Qur’an 59:7), as for the creation and the sustenance, then no.” Then [Imam (as)] said: “Indeed Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) says (in al Qur’an 13:16): “Allah is the Creator of all things”, and He (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) says (in al Qur’an 30:40): “It is God Who has created you: further, He has provided for your sustenance; then He will cause you to die; and again He will give you life. Are there any of your (false) “Partners” who can do any single one of these things? Glory to Him! and high is He above the partners they attribute (to him)!”

---

Now We have a hadith telling us Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) created the Imams (عليه السلام) and the Imams created rest of creation, is that not a delegation? Do you not see that people are playing with fire when it comes to these beliefs:

إِنَّهُ مَنْ يُشْرِكْ بِاللَّهِ فَقَدْ حَرَّمَ اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ الْجَنَّةَ وَمَأْوَاهُ النَّارُ
Surely whoever associates (others) with Allah, then Allah has forbidden to him the garden, and his abode is the fire
  

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6 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

You have this for almost every hadith and almost every authentic historical record. I know whom you want to protect by refusing this historical account. 

If it doesn't make sense,  it most likely didn't happen 

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19 hours ago, Fink said:

I agree and that's basically shirk. The problem I've found with ithna ashirya is that some aspects flirt with shirk. It draws you in unknowingly with thoughts of ghuluu and then you're staring at the edge of tawheed.

Indeed.

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) said:

هُوَ الَّذِى خَلَقَكُمْ مِّنْ نَّفْسٍ وٰحِدَةٍ وَجَعَلَ مِنْهَا زَوْجَهَا لِيَسْكُنَ إِلَيْهَا  ۖ  فَلَمَّا تَغَشّٰىهَا حَمَلَتْ حَمْلًا خَفِيفًا فَمَرَّتْ بِهِۦ  ۖ  فَلَمَّآ أَثْقَلَت دَّعَوَا اللَّهَ رَبَّهُمَا لَئِنْ ءَاتَيْتَنَا صٰلِحًا لَّنَكُونَنَّ مِنَ الشّٰكِرِينَ
"It is He who created you from one soul and created from it its mate that he might dwell in security with her. And when he covers her, she carries a light burden and continues therein. And when it becomes heavy, they both invoke Allah, their Lord, If You should give us a good [child], we will surely be among the grateful."
(QS. Al-A'raaf 7: Verse 189)

فَلَمَّآ ءَاتٰىهُمَا صٰلِحًا جَعَلَا لَهُۥ شُرَكَآءَ فِيمَآ ءَاتٰىهُمَا  ۚ  فَتَعٰلَى اللَّهُ عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ
"But when He gives them a good [child], they ascribe partners to Him concerning that which He has given them. Exalted is Allah above what they associate with Him."
(QS. Al-A'raaf 7: Verse 190)

أَيُشْرِكُونَ مَا لَا يَخْلُقُ شَيْئًا وَهُمْ يُخْلَقُونَ
"Do they associate with Him those who create nothing and they are [themselves] created?"
(QS. Al-A'raaf 7: Verse 191)

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^hes going to say this only applies to the pagans of 7th century Arabia. There is no such thing as shirk when it comes to Ahlul Bayt. Allah and Ahlul Bayt are one. How do you draw lines with those who drew them.

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9 hours ago, Fink said:

Apparently 6 people all  decided to have a fun night out all at once in Mecca. And mashallah they brought an insane person, a dhimmi, a married one , a bachelor and a slave along. 

Do people contemplate what these hadiths are actually saying?

They may have been awaiting judgment. Heads of state are busy. So it would make sense to address the same case at once. As for the differences of each individual. These cases were probably judged all the time. This one was recorded because it stood out. If the hadith is mass transmitted by different chains it most likely did happen. Regardless of our own subjective opinion. Even if it might not have, it's best to take, as the message is sound and there is no objective evidence against it. 

If we apply our "rational" mind to everything then why would Allah tell Noah build a giant boat. We believe it because Qur'an is authentic not because it makes "sense"

Edited by Warilla

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1 hour ago, Abu Nur said:

 

إِنَّهُ مَنْ يُشْرِكْ بِاللَّهِ فَقَدْ حَرَّمَ اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ الْجَنَّةَ وَمَأْوَاهُ النَّارُ
Surely whoever associates (others) with Allah, then Allah has forbidden to him the garden, and his abode is the fire
  

So from "ilmun kitab" & "ilmun min alkitab", you have connected this matter with tafweed.

Brother, What do you say to a dead person who was brought back to life by Prophet Essa ((عليه السلام))? Do you deny that Jesus ((عليه السلام)) gave him the life by the permission of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)? 

Similarly, rad ash-shams was a miracle of Prophet & Imam Ali (peace & blessings of Allah be upon them), shaqq al qamar etc. Would you deny that Prophet or Imam Ali did that?

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1 minute ago, Salsabeel said:

So from "ilmun kitab" & "ilmun min alkitab", you have connected this matter with tafweed.

Brother, What do you say to a dead person who was brought back to life by Prophet Essa ((عليه السلام))? Do you deny that Jesus ((عليه السلام)) gave him the life by the permission of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)? 

Similarly, rad ash-shams was a miracle of Prophet & Imam Ali (peace & blessings of Allah be upon them), shaqq al qamar etc. Would you deny that Prophet or Imam Ali did that?

Christians believe in the miracles of Isa too. However Allah outlines in the Qur'an that they erred by attributing to Isa what was Allah’s. They took Isa as the creator, the sustainer, the all-knowing. Similar to what you believe of the Imams.

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2 hours ago, Panzerwaffe said:

How did you determine it was Ali based on the quranic verse? Please clarify 

Search the historical records, you will find only two names:

1. Imam Ali (asws)

2. Abdullah bin Salam

The second one was nominated by nawasibs to get rid of the fazeelat of Imam Ali (asws)

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2 minutes ago, 786:) said:

Christians believe in the miracles of Isa too. However Allah outlines in the Qur'an that they erred by attributing to Isa what was Allah’s.

I know what Qur'an says about them. It seems to me you need to know a lot.

Surah Aal-e-Imran, Verse 49:

وَرَسُولًا إِلَىٰ بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ أَنِّي قَدْ جِئْتُكُم بِآيَةٍ مِّن رَّبِّكُمْ أَنِّي أَخْلُقُ لَكُم مِّنَ الطِّينِ كَهَيْئَةِ الطَّيْرِ فَأَنفُخُ فِيهِ فَيَكُونُ طَيْرًا بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ وَأُبْرِئُ الْأَكْمَهَ وَالْأَبْرَصَ وَأُحْيِي الْمَوْتَىٰ بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ وَأُنَبِّئُكُم بِمَا تَأْكُلُونَ وَمَا تَدَّخِرُونَ فِي بُيُوتِكُمْ إِنَّ فِي ذَٰلِكَ لَآيَةً لَّكُمْ إِن كُنتُم مُّؤْمِنِينَ

And (make him) an apostle to the children of Israel: That I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, that I determine for you out of dust like the form of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird with Allah's permission and I heal the blind and the leprous, and bring the dead to life with Allah's permission and I inform you of what you should eat and what you should store in your houses; most surely there is a sign in this for you, if you are believers. (English - Shakir) 

"I determine for you" (anni akhluqo lakum)

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12 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

I know what Qur'an says about them. It seems to me you need to know a lot.

Surah Aal-e-Imran, Verse 49:

وَرَسُولًا إِلَىٰ بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ أَنِّي قَدْ جِئْتُكُم بِآيَةٍ مِّن رَّبِّكُمْ أَنِّي أَخْلُقُ لَكُم مِّنَ الطِّينِ كَهَيْئَةِ الطَّيْرِ فَأَنفُخُ فِيهِ فَيَكُونُ طَيْرًا بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ وَأُبْرِئُ الْأَكْمَهَ وَالْأَبْرَصَ وَأُحْيِي الْمَوْتَىٰ بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ وَأُنَبِّئُكُم بِمَا تَأْكُلُونَ وَمَا تَدَّخِرُونَ فِي بُيُوتِكُمْ إِنَّ فِي ذَٰلِكَ لَآيَةً لَّكُمْ إِن كُنتُم مُّؤْمِنِينَ

And (make him) an apostle to the children of Israel: That I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, that I determine for you out of dust like the form of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird with Allah's permission and I heal the blind and the leprous, and bring the dead to life with Allah's permission and I inform you of what you should eat and what you should store in your houses; most surely there is a sign in this for you, if you are believers. (English - Shakir) 

"I determine for you" (anni akhluqo lakum)

Not sure what this proves. No where does it say that Isa was the creator or sustainer. I am looking for Quranic proof that you or I were created by one of the Imams and they give us rizq like you said earlier.

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Just close your eyes, don't read verses like these, otherwise you would become the like of mufawwadah. 

Or the others would call these verses as shirk. Everything which mentions the fazeelat of Ahlul Bayt (asws) is shirk for them.

@Abu Nur, those scholars who have written books on wilayat e takweeniyah haven't seen these ahadith? There is no universal authority of Ahlul Bayt? I request you to please clear your view point as you're a moderator here on shiachat.

 

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Just now, 786:) said:

Not sure what this proves. No where does it say that Isa was the creator or sustainer. 

Qur'an says about Christians "wala taqoolu thalatha". Their invention was the triune which is condemned by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

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2 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

Qur'an says about Christians "wala taqoolu thalatha". Their invention was the triune which is condemned by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

You are basically doing the same thing. Allah, Muhammad and Ahlul Bayt. The Islamic trinity.

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2 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

Search the historical records, you will find only two names:

1. Imam Ali (asws)

2. Abdullah bin Salam

The second one was nominated by nawasibs to get rid of the fazeelat of Imam Ali (asws)

Ok so that's the point all goes back to history tafsir hadith ..on it's own Qur'an does not directly address any such issues 

Btw ibn salam was a charlatan ex rabbi who was a uthmani

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15 hours ago, Panzerwaffe said:

on it's own Qur'an does not directly address any such issues 

Qur'an mentioned one who has knowledge of the book and he is the witness of prophethood of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). Qur'an also mentions the giving of zakat in the state of ruku' without naming anyone. Qur'an has also mentioned those when calamity befalls upon them them say "inna lillahe wa inna elaihe raje'oon" without naming anyone. And we know very well who is the person in these three examples. 

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3 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

Qur'an mentioned one who has knowledge of the book and he is the witness of prophethood of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). Qur'an also mentions the giving of zakat in the state of ruku' without naming anyone. Qur'an has also mentioned those when calamity befalls upon them them say "inna lillahe wa inna elaihe raje'oon" without naming anyone. And we know very well who is the person in these three examples. 

Yes we do thanks to ....wait for it 

Tafsir hadith and seerah / history without them it cannot be proven who thst person was 

So thats what I said a few posts back 

 

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Another reference from Qur'an is the verse of chapter 18:

فَوَجَدَا عَبْدًا مِّنْ عِبَادِنَا آتَيْنَاهُ رَحْمَةً مِنْ عِندِنَا وَعَلَّمْنَاهُ مِن لَّدُنَّا عِلْمًا
18:65

In this story, the point is when Hazrat Khidr is mentioning the ta'veel of his actions to Prophet Musa ((عليه السلام)) and said the following words in the end:

رَحْمَةً مِّن رَّبِّكَ وَمَا فَعَلْتُهُ عَنْ أَمْرِي
18:82

How he has said that he has not done anything on his own accord? He did hole in the boat, killed a child, repaired a wall, for making hole in the boat he used the word فَأَرَدْتُ (I wished), for killing of child he used the word فَأَرَدْنَا (we desired) and for repairing of wall he used the word فَأَرَادَ رَبُّكَ (Your Lord desired). This is the most interesting event, how the unity in the desires of servant, servant & Lord , and Lord appeared from this blessed verse. And how this divine knowledge helping him to maintain communication with his Lord, that Prophet like Musa ((عليه السلام)) Kaleemullah did not even knew and unable to get smell of it. 

 

Edited by Salsabeel
typo

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