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18 minutes ago, 786:) said:

Then you can say the Prophet taught it to the Imams--sure.

No difference at all. As we know about Prophet (S):

"Wama yantiqo anil hawa"

18 minutes ago, 786:) said:

And with that knowledge the Prophet/Imams can control the universe? No, this is blasphemy. I would show you clear cut verses but apparently they do not do much for you

:) You have been fixed reformist!!

I will quote the verses, perhaps you forgot the person who brought the throne of Queen. 

Don't try to confine the divine grace my dear. Mulkan Azeema & Mulkan Kabira, have been granted to Ahlul Bayt (asws).

18 minutes ago, 786:) said:

And, "By the permission of Allah" Is just a formality to make it sound nice and acceptable.

Yes, it is formality because it would be hard for you to understand that Ahlul Bayt's wills only what Allah wills. 

 

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5 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

I will quote the verses, perhaps you forgot the person who brought the throne of Queen. 

Don't try to confine the divine grace my dear. Mulkan Azeema & Mulkan Kabira, have been granted to Ahlul Bayt (asws).

Yes, it is formality because it would be hard for you to understand that Ahlul Bayt's wills only what Allah wills. 

 

Please share the verses. Cannot wait to read the gymnastics of yours to prove that Imam Ali gives rizq and Imam Hussain gives children. I also want an itemized excel sheet that states which personality gives what? You know kind of like the Hindus...:hahaha:

While you are at it, also share what is the difference between Allah and Ahlul Bayt. Are you the ghulluw that believe only difference is Allah is the creator and Ahlul Bayt is the created?

Edited by 786:)

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32 minutes ago, 786:) said:

And with that knowledge the Prophet/Imams can control the universe? No, this is blasphemy. I would show you clear cut verses but apparently they do not do much for you. You invest your trust in dubious hadith to put off the Qur'an because your narrative is more established in the hadith literature than Qur'an.

There's no denying that the follower of Solomon brought the throne of Sheba/Bilquis in a twinkle of an eye [27:40]. But there's also no denying that there's no bounds with some 12er groups and their extreme beliefs. One such as calling Hazrat Abbas as babul hawaij and directly invoking only his name and asking to be blessed with a child.

Edited by Jaane Ya Ali

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7 minutes ago, Jaane Ya Ali said:

One such as calling Hazrat Abbas as babul hawaij and directly invoking only his name and asking to be blessed with a child.

If you don't believe that then you are "denying his rights" and are a hater of Ahlul Bayt lol. Its amusing how Hazrat Hamza doesn't have these powers when he is on the same grounds as Hazrat Abbas--if not higher.

Edited by 786:)

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2 minutes ago, 786:) said:

Cannot wait to read the gymnastics of yours to prove that Imam Ali gives rizq and Imam Hussain gives children. I also want an itemized excel sheet that states which personality gives what?

So you believe that no one can control the universe except Allah? There is not Izara'il, Meeka'il etc, no junood of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

You believe that non can bring the dead back to life, none can speak with birds or trees, none can bring back the sun from its setting point etc. 

:D that's great Reformist. You chief reformist would get angry on you now.

 

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8 minutes ago, Jaane Ya Ali said:

There's no denying that the follower of Solomon brought the throne of Sheba/Bilquis In a twinkle of an eye [27:40]

I just want you to limit to this. Because I am not discussing wasilah at the moment.

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3 minutes ago, 786:) said:

Its amusing how Hazrat Hamza doesn't have these powers when he is on the same grounds as Hazrat Abbas--if not higher.

I am leaving this matter between you and Hazrat Abbas ((عليه السلام)). You have started to ridicule the ones I love and I cannot tolerate this.

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2 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

I am leaving this matter between you and Hazrat Abbas ((عليه السلام)). You have started to ridicule the ones I love and I cannot tolerate this.

How did I ridicule anyone? If you think comparing him to Hazrat Hamza is ridiculing then that’s speaks for itself. 

Edited by 786:)

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30 minutes ago, Jaane Ya Ali said:

There's no denying that the follower of Solomon brought the throne of Sheba/Bilquis in a twinkle of an eye [27:40]. But there's also no denying that there's no bounds with some 12er groups and their extreme beliefs. One such as calling Hazrat Abbas as babul hawaij and directly invoking only his name and asking to be blessed with a child.

I agree and that's basically shirk. The problem I've found with ithna ashirya is that some aspects flirt with shirk. It draws you in unknowingly with thoughts of ghuluu and then you're staring at the edge of tawheed. 

But for me to see the Imams as preferred people of knowledge makes more sense. Some were more pivotal than others, Imam Ali as played a major role in Islam's defence and establishment. 

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1 minute ago, Fink said:

I agree and that's basically shirk. The problem I've found with ithna ashirya is that some aspects flirt with shirk. It draws you in unknowingly with thoughts of ghuluu and then you're staring at the edge of tawheed. 

But for me to see the Imams as preferred people of knowledge makes more sense. Some were more pivotal than others, Imam Ali as played a major role in Islam's defence and establishment. 

Watch out brother, you are ridiculing Hazrat Abbas by calling that shirk.

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1 hour ago, Salsabeel said:

Are you sure that there is no verse in Qur'an which supports the idea that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has taught/granted knowledge of the book to Imams. And with that knowledge of the book they can, by the permission of Allah, do supernatural things? 

That is fine, but where is the limit? Can we go really this far: http://www.shahadat-e-salisa.com/home/wilayat-e-ahlebait/wilayat-e-taqweeni

Quote

ونحن صنائع ربنا، والخلق بعد صنائعنا

“We are the Work (Creations) of Allah and rest  of the creations are our Work".

[Ref:  Al Gaibah - Sheikh Tusi, Ahtejaj Tabrisi and Bihar ul Anwar]

See this Hadees Online: http://www.al-Shia.org/html/ara/books/lib-hadis/qiba_tusi/a15.html 

So Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) the 'Best Creator - أَحْسَنَ الْخَالِقِينَ’  created the Best of All creations I.e. Muhammad (saww) & his Progeny (عليه السلام). And the AhleBait (عليه السلام) created the rest.

Alhamdulillah this Hadees is verified by not one but Many Ayahs of the Holy Qur'an.

 

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2 hours ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

Tbf that was originally a Khawarij narrative. .

Pretty sure this is more synonymous with Salafis in contemporary times.

It's true khawarij were the first. They also initially called them selves Shia of Ali but we're unhappy with his desicion on Muawiya.

Salafi are extreme Sunni. I think 12er reflect this as extreme Shia. Look at classic 12er literature and attitude to the caliphs, Prophets wives and other sects. Only contemporary 12er Maraja/scholars are trying to reform this. And even then are getting backlash from parts of the Shia community.

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1 hour ago, 786:) said:

I am mind blown that you are creating matters of aqeeda based on "could he not?" arguments. This is dangerous. Could Allah not make Donald Trump the 13th Imam? Could Donald Trump not control the entire universe by the permission of Allah?

And his rise has already been foretold by Simpsons 

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1 hour ago, Salsabeel said:

Are you sure that there is no verse in Qur'an which supports the idea that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has taught/granted knowledge of the book to Imams. And with that knowledge of the book they can, by the permission of Allah, do supernatural things? 

Everything is possible yes but did the Imams claim to do that?

If they did was this important enough to be an article of faith ?

See all these answers rely on hadith narrated by fallible humans so even though we may think of our Imams as infallible our link to them is as fallible as the Sunnis link to Prophet I.e through sahaba 

In reality the sectarian dispute is not if Abu Bakr/ Umar or Ali was superior but narraters of which sect are more likely to represent the truth and are more "reliable ".Which in itself is subjective as a orthodox Sunni is likely to be unreliable for Shias and vice versa 

Edited by Panzerwaffe

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5 minutes ago, 786:) said:

Yeah he will eventually have Wilayah Taqwiniyya. Then he will grant us kids (by abolishing Planned Parenthood) and rizq (lowering taxes).

Hes probably better than the Aswad messiah before him who was born a slave toiled for yrs and eventually became president 

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10 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

That is fine, but where is the limit?

Are you asking me to show you the limits of created beings?

If anyone claims to be a creator of this whole universe, he cannot do it except with the and by the powers & permission granted to him by the One who is Supreme in knowledge & power. 

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9 hours ago, Panzerwaffe said:

Everything is bad personsible yes but did the Imams claim to do that?

If they did was this important enough to be an article of faith ?

It is not necessary that a person who keeps the knowledge of the book claim anything. 

It is established fact in the light of the verses of Qur'an that those who possess knowledge of the book can do supernatural things.

Surah Ar-Rad, Verse 43:

وَيَقُولُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا لَسْتَ مُرْسَلًا قُلْ كَفَىٰ بِاللَّهِ شَهِيدًا بَيْنِي وَبَيْنَكُمْ وَمَنْ عِندَهُ عِلْمُ الْكِتَابِ

And those who disbelieve say: You are not a messenger. Say: Allah is sufficient as a witness between me and you and whoever has knowledge of the Book. (English - Shakir) 

And I am not talking about sectarianism, I have just challenged the claim of a reformist through the verse of Qur'an.

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10 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

It is not necessary that a person who keeps the knowledge of the book claim anything. 

It is established fact in the light of the verses of Qur'an that those who possess knowledge of the book can do supernatural things.

Surah Ar-Rad, Verse 43:

وَيَقُولُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا لَسْتَ مُرْسَلًا قُلْ كَفَىٰ بِاللَّهِ شَهِيدًا بَيْنِي وَبَيْنَكُمْ وَمَنْ عِندَهُ عِلْمُ الْكِتَابِ

And those who disbelieve say: You are not a messenger. Say: Allah is sufficient as a witness between me and you and whoever has knowledge of the Book. (English - Shakir) 

And I am not talking about sectarianism, I have just challenged the claim of a reformist through the verse of Qur'an.

Who can perform supernatural things per this verse ? Prophet and who else ?

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Just now, Panzerwaffe said:

Who can perform supernatural things per this verse ? Prophet and who else ?

This verse is mentioning the existence of person having knowledge of the book (ilmul kitab) and this is Ali ibn Abi Talib (asws).

Now lets see the capacity of a person who has some knowledge of the book (ilmun min alkitab):

Surah An-Naml, Verse 40:

قَالَ الَّذِي عِندَهُ عِلْمٌ مِّنَ الْكِتَابِ أَنَا آتِيكَ بِهِ قَبْلَ أَن يَرْتَدَّ إِلَيْكَ طَرْفُكَ فَلَمَّا رَآهُ مُسْتَقِرًّا عِندَهُ قَالَ هَٰذَا مِن فَضْلِ رَبِّي لِيَبْلُوَنِي أَأَشْكُرُ أَمْ أَكْفُرُ وَمَن شَكَرَ فَإِنَّمَا يَشْكُرُ لِنَفْسِهِ وَمَن كَفَرَ فَإِنَّ رَبِّي غَنِيٌّ كَرِيمٌ

One who had the knowledge of the Book said: I will bring it to you in the twinkling of an eye. Then when he saw it settled beside him, he said: This is of the grace of my Lord that He may try me whether I am grateful or ungrateful; and whoever is grateful, he is grateful only for his own soul, and whoever is ungrateful, then surely my Lord is Self-sufficient, Honored. (English - Shakir) 

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