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Hadith Rejectors - Muslim, Hypocrites, etc

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4 hours ago, Warilla said:

Either you agree with us or are a hypocrite is a 12er narrative.

Tbf that was originally a Khawarij narrative. If anything they went further because such a person is deemed out of the fold and their killing is justified.

Pretty sure this is more synonymous with Salafis in contemporary times.

Edited by Propaganda_of_the_Deed

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1 hour ago, 786:) said:

There is no verse that supports Allah has given the control of every atom to the Imams. You may have hadith that support it, but don’t attribute lies on the Qur'an.

Are you sure that there is no verse in Qur'an which supports the idea that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has taught/granted knowledge of the book to Imams. And with that knowledge of the book they can, by the permission of Allah, do supernatural things? 

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3 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

Are you sure that there is no verse in Qur'an which supports the idea that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has taught/granted knowledge of the book to Imams. And with that knowledge of the book they can, by the permission of Allah, do supernatural things? 

He has taught to the Imams? Cannot say there is evidence for that. Taught to the Prophet? Yes there is evidence. Then you can say the Prophet taught it to the Imams--sure.

And with that knowledge the Prophet/Imams can control the universe? No, this is blasphemy. I would show you clear cut verses but apparently they do not do much for you. You invest your trust in dubious hadith to put off the Qur'an because your narrative is more established in the hadith literature than Qur'an.

And, "By the permission of Allah" is just a formality to make it sound nice and acceptable. No where in the Qur'an does Allah say Imam Ali gives rizq or Imam Hussain gives children etc. Rather Allah says he is the one who does such. So I do not care for any hadith that says otherwise. Basic hadith science principle is to reject if it contradicts the Qur'an and this to me is a blatant contradiction.

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I am mind blown that you are creating matters of aqeeda based on "could he not?" arguments. This is dangerous. Could Allah not make Donald Trump the 13th Imam? Could Donald Trump not control the entire universe by the permission of Allah?

Edited by 786:)

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18 minutes ago, 786:) said:

Then you can say the Prophet taught it to the Imams--sure.

No difference at all. As we know about Prophet (S):

"Wama yantiqo anil hawa"

18 minutes ago, 786:) said:

And with that knowledge the Prophet/Imams can control the universe? No, this is blasphemy. I would show you clear cut verses but apparently they do not do much for you

:) You have been fixed reformist!!

I will quote the verses, perhaps you forgot the person who brought the throne of Queen. 

Don't try to confine the divine grace my dear. Mulkan Azeema & Mulkan Kabira, have been granted to Ahlul Bayt (asws).

18 minutes ago, 786:) said:

And, "By the permission of Allah" Is just a formality to make it sound nice and acceptable.

Yes, it is formality because it would be hard for you to understand that Ahlul Bayt's wills only what Allah wills. 

 

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5 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

I will quote the verses, perhaps you forgot the person who brought the throne of Queen. 

Don't try to confine the divine grace my dear. Mulkan Azeema & Mulkan Kabira, have been granted to Ahlul Bayt (asws).

Yes, it is formality because it would be hard for you to understand that Ahlul Bayt's wills only what Allah wills. 

 

Please share the verses. Cannot wait to read the gymnastics of yours to prove that Imam Ali gives rizq and Imam Hussain gives children. I also want an itemized excel sheet that states which personality gives what? You know kind of like the Hindus...:hahaha:

While you are at it, also share what is the difference between Allah and Ahlul Bayt. Are you the ghulluw that believe only difference is Allah is the creator and Ahlul Bayt is the created?

Edited by 786:)

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32 minutes ago, 786:) said:

And with that knowledge the Prophet/Imams can control the universe? No, this is blasphemy. I would show you clear cut verses but apparently they do not do much for you. You invest your trust in dubious hadith to put off the Qur'an because your narrative is more established in the hadith literature than Qur'an.

There's no denying that the follower of Solomon brought the throne of Sheba/Bilquis in a twinkle of an eye [27:40]. But there's also no denying that there's no bounds with some 12er groups and their extreme beliefs. One such as calling Hazrat Abbas as babul hawaij and directly invoking only his name and asking to be blessed with a child.

Edited by Jaane Ya Ali

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7 minutes ago, Jaane Ya Ali said:

One such as calling Hazrat Abbas as babul hawaij and directly invoking only his name and asking to be blessed with a child.

If you don't believe that then you are "denying his rights" and are a hater of Ahlul Bayt lol. Its amusing how Hazrat Hamza doesn't have these powers when he is on the same grounds as Hazrat Abbas--if not higher.

Edited by 786:)

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2 minutes ago, 786:) said:

Cannot wait to read the gymnastics of yours to prove that Imam Ali gives rizq and Imam Hussain gives children. I also want an itemized excel sheet that states which personality gives what?

So you believe that no one can control the universe except Allah? There is not Izara'il, Meeka'il etc, no junood of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

You believe that non can bring the dead back to life, none can speak with birds or trees, none can bring back the sun from its setting point etc. 

:D that's great Reformist. You chief reformist would get angry on you now.

 

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8 minutes ago, Jaane Ya Ali said:

There's no denying that the follower of Solomon brought the throne of Sheba/Bilquis In a twinkle of an eye [27:40]

I just want you to limit to this. Because I am not discussing wasilah at the moment.

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3 minutes ago, 786:) said:

Its amusing how Hazrat Hamza doesn't have these powers when he is on the same grounds as Hazrat Abbas--if not higher.

I am leaving this matter between you and Hazrat Abbas ((عليه السلام)). You have started to ridicule the ones I love and I cannot tolerate this.

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2 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

I am leaving this matter between you and Hazrat Abbas ((عليه السلام)). You have started to ridicule the ones I love and I cannot tolerate this.

How did I ridicule anyone? If you think comparing him to Hazrat Hamza is ridiculing then that’s speaks for itself. 

Edited by 786:)

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30 minutes ago, Jaane Ya Ali said:

There's no denying that the follower of Solomon brought the throne of Sheba/Bilquis in a twinkle of an eye [27:40]. But there's also no denying that there's no bounds with some 12er groups and their extreme beliefs. One such as calling Hazrat Abbas as babul hawaij and directly invoking only his name and asking to be blessed with a child.

I agree and that's basically shirk. The problem I've found with ithna ashirya is that some aspects flirt with shirk. It draws you in unknowingly with thoughts of ghuluu and then you're staring at the edge of tawheed. 

But for me to see the Imams as preferred people of knowledge makes more sense. Some were more pivotal than others, Imam Ali as played a major role in Islam's defence and establishment. 

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1 minute ago, Fink said:

I agree and that's basically shirk. The problem I've found with ithna ashirya is that some aspects flirt with shirk. It draws you in unknowingly with thoughts of ghuluu and then you're staring at the edge of tawheed. 

But for me to see the Imams as preferred people of knowledge makes more sense. Some were more pivotal than others, Imam Ali as played a major role in Islam's defence and establishment. 

Watch out brother, you are ridiculing Hazrat Abbas by calling that shirk.

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1 hour ago, Salsabeel said:

Are you sure that there is no verse in Qur'an which supports the idea that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has taught/granted knowledge of the book to Imams. And with that knowledge of the book they can, by the permission of Allah, do supernatural things? 

That is fine, but where is the limit? Can we go really this far: http://www.shahadat-e-salisa.com/home/wilayat-e-ahlebait/wilayat-e-taqweeni

Quote

ونحن صنائع ربنا، والخلق بعد صنائعنا

“We are the Work (Creations) of Allah and rest  of the creations are our Work".

[Ref:  Al Gaibah - Sheikh Tusi, Ahtejaj Tabrisi and Bihar ul Anwar]

See this Hadees Online: http://www.al-Shia.org/html/ara/books/lib-hadis/qiba_tusi/a15.html 

So Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) the 'Best Creator - أَحْسَنَ الْخَالِقِينَ’  created the Best of All creations I.e. Muhammad (saww) & his Progeny (عليه السلام). And the AhleBait (عليه السلام) created the rest.

Alhamdulillah this Hadees is verified by not one but Many Ayahs of the Holy Qur'an.

 

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2 hours ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

Tbf that was originally a Khawarij narrative. .

Pretty sure this is more synonymous with Salafis in contemporary times.

It's true khawarij were the first. They also initially called them selves Shia of Ali but we're unhappy with his desicion on Muawiya.

Salafi are extreme Sunni. I think 12er reflect this as extreme Shia. Look at classic 12er literature and attitude to the caliphs, Prophets wives and other sects. Only contemporary 12er Maraja/scholars are trying to reform this. And even then are getting backlash from parts of the Shia community.

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1 hour ago, 786:) said:

I am mind blown that you are creating matters of aqeeda based on "could he not?" arguments. This is dangerous. Could Allah not make Donald Trump the 13th Imam? Could Donald Trump not control the entire universe by the permission of Allah?

And his rise has already been foretold by Simpsons 

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5 minutes ago, 786:) said:

Yeah he will eventually have Wilayah Taqwiniyya. Then he will grant us kids (by abolishing Planned Parenthood) and rizq (lowering taxes).

Hes probably better than the Aswad messiah before him who was born a slave toiled for yrs and eventually became president 

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10 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

That is fine, but where is the limit?

Are you asking me to show you the limits of created beings?

If anyone claims to be a creator of this whole universe, he cannot do it except with the and by the powers & permission granted to him by the One who is Supreme in knowledge & power. 

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9 hours ago, Panzerwaffe said:

Everything is bad personsible yes but did the Imams claim to do that?

If they did was this important enough to be an article of faith ?

It is not necessary that a person who keeps the knowledge of the book claim anything. 

It is established fact in the light of the verses of Qur'an that those who possess knowledge of the book can do supernatural things.

Surah Ar-Rad, Verse 43:

وَيَقُولُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا لَسْتَ مُرْسَلًا قُلْ كَفَىٰ بِاللَّهِ شَهِيدًا بَيْنِي وَبَيْنَكُمْ وَمَنْ عِندَهُ عِلْمُ الْكِتَابِ

And those who disbelieve say: You are not a messenger. Say: Allah is sufficient as a witness between me and you and whoever has knowledge of the Book. (English - Shakir) 

And I am not talking about sectarianism, I have just challenged the claim of a reformist through the verse of Qur'an.

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10 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

It is not necessary that a person who keeps the knowledge of the book claim anything. 

It is established fact in the light of the verses of Qur'an that those who possess knowledge of the book can do supernatural things.

Surah Ar-Rad, Verse 43:

وَيَقُولُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا لَسْتَ مُرْسَلًا قُلْ كَفَىٰ بِاللَّهِ شَهِيدًا بَيْنِي وَبَيْنَكُمْ وَمَنْ عِندَهُ عِلْمُ الْكِتَابِ

And those who disbelieve say: You are not a messenger. Say: Allah is sufficient as a witness between me and you and whoever has knowledge of the Book. (English - Shakir) 

And I am not talking about sectarianism, I have just challenged the claim of a reformist through the verse of Qur'an.

Who can perform supernatural things per this verse ? Prophet and who else ?

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Just now, Panzerwaffe said:

Who can perform supernatural things per this verse ? Prophet and who else ?

This verse is mentioning the existence of person having knowledge of the book (ilmul kitab) and this is Ali ibn Abi Talib (asws).

Now lets see the capacity of a person who has some knowledge of the book (ilmun min alkitab):

Surah An-Naml, Verse 40:

قَالَ الَّذِي عِندَهُ عِلْمٌ مِّنَ الْكِتَابِ أَنَا آتِيكَ بِهِ قَبْلَ أَن يَرْتَدَّ إِلَيْكَ طَرْفُكَ فَلَمَّا رَآهُ مُسْتَقِرًّا عِندَهُ قَالَ هَٰذَا مِن فَضْلِ رَبِّي لِيَبْلُوَنِي أَأَشْكُرُ أَمْ أَكْفُرُ وَمَن شَكَرَ فَإِنَّمَا يَشْكُرُ لِنَفْسِهِ وَمَن كَفَرَ فَإِنَّ رَبِّي غَنِيٌّ كَرِيمٌ

One who had the knowledge of the Book said: I will bring it to you in the twinkling of an eye. Then when he saw it settled beside him, he said: This is of the grace of my Lord that He may try me whether I am grateful or ungrateful; and whoever is grateful, he is grateful only for his own soul, and whoever is ungrateful, then surely my Lord is Self-sufficient, Honored. (English - Shakir) 

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31 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

Are you asking me to show you the limits of created beings?

If anyone claims to be a creator of this whole universe, he cannot do it except with the and by the powers & permission granted to him by the One who is Supreme in knowledge & power. 

There is a line between sound and ghulat belief. What is the definition that make people to cross to the ghulat side. When it comes to Imams (عليه السلام) history show there have been many people who went too far in their belief of Imams and such belief can be found in our narrations. So which one you think its too far and which one is not. 

To say that it is possible is not really beneficial answer. 

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19 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

Six persons, accused of adultery, were produced before the then caliph, Umar bin Khattab. At once he sentenced them to flogging, each of them with a hundred stripes. When Ali pointed out to him that his judgement was in contravention of the divine law, Umar requested him to give his own judgement.

Ali said:

Execute the first.

Stone to death the second.

Punish the third with a hundred stripes.

Punish the fourth with fifty stripes. Warn the fifth and set him free.

Set the sixth free without any penalty.

All wondered as to why Ali gave a different verdict for each of the 6 persons tried for the same crime.

Ali explained:

The first is a dhimmi, a disbeliever under the protection of the Muslim state, who committed the crime of adultery with a believing woman, and having violated the law of Islam has ceased to be a dhimmi, therefore he must be executed.

The second is a married man whose punishment is stoning to death.

The third is to be flogged with a hundred stripes because he is a bachelor.

The fourth is a slave, so fifty stripes is his punishment .

The fifth has only been warned because he was caught in the crime inadvertently.

The sixth is insane, so the law cannot be applied on him.

Then Umar said:

"Had there not been Ali, Umar would have perished."

Apparently 6 people all  decided to have a fun night out all at once in Mecca. And mashallah they brought an insane person, a dhimmi, a married one , a bachelor and a slave along. 

Do people contemplate what these hadiths are actually saying?

Edited by Fink

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1 minute ago, Abu Nur said:

So which one you think its too far and which one is not. 

To say that it is possible is not really beneficial answer. 

أَإِلَهٌ مَّعَ اللَّهِ قَلِيلًا مَّا تَذَكَّرُونَ

27:62 Could there be any divine power besides God? How seldom do you keep this in mind!

There is no ilah except Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), and this is the limit taught to us by Ma'someen (asws). 

An Imam can be a razzaq but there is One Al-Razzaq. An Imam can be a khaliq but Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is Al-Khaliq & Ahsan ul Khliqeen. 

We all are waseelah, when I distribute salaries to my staff,I offer thank to Allah that He has choosen me as wasilah.

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3 minutes ago, Fink said:

Apparently 6 people all  decided to have a fun night out all at once in Mecca. And mashallah they brought an insane person, a dhimmi, a married one , a bachelor and a slave along. 

Do people contemplate what these hadiths are actually saying?

I think you are not well aware of Islamic history, its full of fun. 

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8 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

أَإِلَهٌ مَّعَ اللَّهِ قَلِيلًا مَّا تَذَكَّرُونَ

27:62 Could there be any divine power besides God? How seldom do you keep this in mind!

There is no ilah except Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), and this is the limit taught to us by Ma'someen (asws). 

An Imam can be a razzaq but there is One Al-Razzaq. An Imam can be a khaliq but Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is Al-Khaliq & Ahsan ul Khliqeen. 

We all are waseelah, when I distribute salaries to my staff,I offer thank to Allah that He has choosen me as wasilah.

Sounds oddly like the religion of the Arabs before Islam.

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20 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

I think you are not well aware of Islamic history, its full of fun. 

No dude 6 people were not all caught having sex in the open in Mecca all seen by 4 witnesses. Just no. 

And on top of that they were quite a variety, a dhimmi, a bachelor, a married man, a slave, an insane and one caught by accident (whatever that means). 

And mashallah they were all men, where's the women? 

This is a good example of how wicked hadiths are. 

Even in today's western societies this doesn't happen lol

Edited by Fink

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1 hour ago, 786:) said:

Sounds oddly like the religion of the Arabs before Islam.

:) There were pure muwahhid existed in Arabs before Islam who never ever worshiped any idol and among them were those about whom people like you claim that they are in hell. I am well aware of your e-marjaa reformist :party:

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