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In the Name of God بسم الله

Sufism, poetry and fisq/kufr

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So I was researching online and I saw that there are some poems - particularly from the Sufi crowd - which contain poetry which promote wine-drinking, s*xual deviance including homo stuff, and other t

The Poems are not based on Aqeedah but spiritual experience. When they talk about Love is love for Allah. The "homo" poems as OP described Is referring to Allah. You're not supposed to take the poems

15 minutes ago, power said:

their Lord shall make them drink a pure drink (sharaban tahoora).

What was the point that you were making with the above verse?

The Arabic word "sharab" which is also present in Urdu & Persian and whisky or wine is called "sharab" in Urdu & Persian.

But if the poet has used the word "sharab" with reference to this verse and with reference to its Arabic meanings, then it does not mean wine, it would be a translation error.

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8 minutes ago, power said:

 Is this his created signs his mercy, sovereignty, glory etc that one see through his heart?

It is said that perfect awlias see both attributes of majesty and beauty. But others see either attributes of majesty and grandeur or beauty and jamal. 

It all depends how much one has dissociated from other than Allah and focused heart towards Allah. 

Definition of Wali or acquiring station willayah is where one achieves dissociation from everything and his whole existance is directed and occupied by only Allah. 

What they really see neither they can convey nor we sinners cant comprehend the real meaning of figurative words. 

There is other things like heart witnessing the action and names of Allah and then union with Allah. But in reality all this means Allah knows best or those awlias and Arifs. 

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5 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

:) Here are few more paragraphs from the same link:

"Ash-Shaykh Abu Ja‘far, may Allah have mercy upon him, says: "Allah wills (sha’a) and intends (arada), and He does not like (to be disobeyed) and He does not approve (of it); it is His will that nothing should take place except that of which He has knowledge, and His intention is the same.

Ash-Shaykh al-Mufid, may Allah have mercy upon him, comments that what has been mentioned by Abu Ja‘far, may Allah have mercy upon him, in this respect is not clear and leads to error and confusion, because he relied on the apparent meaning of divergent traditions (ahadith mukhtalifah)1 and following the transmitters without critical insight."

 

"As for Allah's saying:

And if thy Lord had willed, whoever is in the earth would have believed, all of them, all together [10:99],

it was only to stress His Omnipotence and that He is able if He wills – to constrain them to believe by coercion and compulsion, but it is His will that they should believe freely and by choice.

The rest of the verse makes this (i.e., what we have said) plain: Will you then constrain men to become believers? [ibid]. He is able to constrain them to believe if He wills, but He does not, even though it would be an easy task for Him if He willed. All the other verses which they adduce in support of their opinion are to be interpreted in the same way."

Who are Mujabbirah?

"As for the Predestinarians (Mujabbirah) they avoid asserting that Allah wills that He should be disobeyed or denied and that His saints should be killed and His friends abused, by saying that everything should be in accordance with His fore-knowledge, and He intends that disobedience to Him should be a sin and absolutely forbidden."

From my which comment, you have assumed that I am in favor of the ideology of Jabr? And said that I am in disagreement with Sheikh Mufid (a.r)?

It seems to me you are misunderstanding my brother. You are also contradicting yourself. :)

Al-Mufid (rah) say: The fact of the matter is that Allah wills only good acts and intends only those that are seemly (becoming), and He does not will base actions, and does not intend sins.

While you read what Al-Rumi said, and he said that it was Allah's act Himself that was the killing of Imam Ali (as). So according to Al-Rumi, Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى does not will only good acts, but wills bad acts. Do you now see the problem with Al-Rumi's poem? :)

I will make this even simpler:

We believe (me and you): Allah only wills good actions

We believe (me and you): killing of Imam Ali is an evil action

Rumi believes: Allah's will is for Ibn Muljim to kill Imam Ali and therefore Allah wills evil

Where you are in disagreement with Shaykh Al-Mufid is that you said Allah's Will is everywhere, which made me think you also believe Allah wills sins. If I have misunderstood then I apologise for that.

But what do you say about Rumi now?

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19 hours ago, E.L King said:

And why would someone like Al-Majlisi say that Masnavi contains deviant beliefs?

To be fair, Muhammad-Taqi Majlisi was reputedly a Sufi and Allama al-Majlisi did attempt to disassociate that reputation from his father. This could be another instance of that attempt at disassociation.

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4 hours ago, E.L King said:

Where you are in disagreement with Shaykh Al-Mufid is that you said Allah's Will is everywhere, which made me think you also believe Allah wills sins

To me, one thing is sure i.e., Allah do not will and do not command evil. He is the Owner & Bestower of "Kull-e-Khayr".

Our position is this matter (Predestination & Freewill) is sensitive because we neither believe in complete "Jabr" (Compulsion) nor believe in complete "Ikhtiyar" (freedom), we take the middle way.

We need to see where we stand on the matter of "Jabr-e-Mashi'at"? What is our concept of life & death? We need to see if there is "Jabr-e-Mashi'at" in this sphere or not, as Roomi discussing the death of Imam Ali (a.s) in his mathnawi.

It was the strike of Ibn-e-Muljim (L) that injured Imam Ali (a.s) & that was one of the cause of his martyrdom. The crime committed by Ibn-e-Muljim, not by Allah, so I am not going to defend Roomi for literal meanings of words he has used in mathnawi. But what I feel is that he has said all this in context to verse 4:78 while what you're saying is in accordance with verse 4:79.  

Lets see what he is saying:

"The Prophet said in the ear of my servant that one day he would sever this head of mine from my neck.

The Prophet by (Divine) inspiration informed my friend that in the end my destruction would be (wrought) by his hand. He (my friend) says, ‘Kill me first, in order that this hateful crime may not proceed from me.’
I say, ‘Since my death is (to come) from you, how can I seek to evade the destiny (of God)?’
 
He falls before me, saying, ‘O generous man, for God's sake cleave me in twain,"


"He that knows how to sew (together) knows how to tear (asunder); whatsoever
 
He sells, He buys (something) better (in exchange).
 
He lays the house in ruins, upside down; then in one moment He makes it more habitable (than it was before).
 
If He sever one head from the body, He at once raises up hundreds of thousands of heads (for the beheaded person). If He had not ordained a retaliation upon the guilty, or if He had not said, “In retaliation there is (for you) a life,”
Who would have the stomach (would dare) of himself (on his own responsibility) to wield (draw) a sword against him that is a thrall to the decree of God?—"


Lets see the verse 4:78 once again:

Wherever you are, death will overtake you, though you are in lofty towers, and if a benefit comes to them the say: This is from Allah; and if a misfortune befalls them, they say: This is from you. Say: All is from Allah, but what is the matter with these people that they do not make approach to understanding what is told (them)?


How can you explain "Say: All is from Allah" (whether a benefit or misfortune)? And how can you explain the following statement of Sheikh Mufid keeping in view the verse 4:78?
 
5 hours ago, E.L King said:

Al-Mufid (rah) say: The fact of the matter is that Allah wills only good acts and intends only those that are seemly (becoming), and He does not will base actions, and does not intend sins.

 

 
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12 hours ago, power said:

Seeing Allah physically?

Imam ‘Ali was asked by one of his companions, Tha΄lab al-Yamani whether he had seen his Lord. Imam ‘Ali replied, “How can I worship something that I do not see?” When asked how he saw Him, Imam ‘Ali replied, “Eyes do not reach Him with physical sight, but the hearts reach Him with the realities of belief.”- Nahjul Balagha

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On ‎03‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 5:07 AM, E.L King said:

This has nothing to do with halal or haram. Has everything to do with is this a good way to worship Allah, by ascribing intoxication and wine drinking. Just answer the question and stop beating around the bush. 

There's wine in Paradise...

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The Poems are not based on Aqeedah but spiritual experience. When they talk about Love is love for Allah. The "homo" poems as OP described Is referring to Allah. You're not supposed to take the poems as creed but to feel it. You feel with the heart. This is the problem. Aql is not solely intellect of the mind but also the intellect of the heart. That's why we call Atheists stupid because they try to perceive everything with the head but they forget that the heart also have a intellect.

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54 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

To me, one thing is sure i.e., Allah do not will and do not command evil. He is the Owner & Bestower of "Kull-e-Khayr".

Our position is this matter (Predestination & Freewill) is sensitive because we neither believe in complete "Jabr" (Compulsion) nor believe in complete "Ikhtiyar" (freedom), we take the middle way.

We need to see where we stand on the matter of "Jabr-e-Mashi'at"? What is our concept of life & death? We need to see if there is "Jabr-e-Mashi'at" in this sphere or not, as Roomi discussing the death of Imam Ali (a.s) in his mathnawi.

It was the strike of Ibn-e-Muljim (L) that injured Imam Ali (a.s) & that was one of the cause of his martyrdom. The crime committed by Ibn-e-Muljim, not by Allah, so I am not going to defend Roomi for literal meanings of words he has used in mathnawi. But what I feel is that he has said all this in context to verse 4:78 while what you're saying is in accordance with verse 4:79.  

Lets see what he is saying:

"The Prophet said in the ear of my servant that one day he would sever this head of mine from my neck.

The Prophet by (Divine) inspiration informed my friend that in the end my destruction would be (wrought) by his hand. He (my friend) says, ‘Kill me first, in order that this hateful crime may not proceed from me.’
I say, ‘Since my death is (to come) from you, how can I seek to evade the destiny (of God)?’
 
He falls before me, saying, ‘O generous man, for God's sake cleave me in twain,"


"He that knows how to sew (together) knows how to tear (asunder); whatsoever
 
He sells, He buys (something) better (in exchange).
 
He lays the house in ruins, upside down; then in one moment He makes it more habitable (than it was before).
 
If He sever one head from the body, He at once raises up hundreds of thousands of heads (for the beheaded person). If He had not ordained a retaliation upon the guilty, or if He had not said, “In retaliation there is (for you) a life,”
Who would have the stomach (would dare) of himself (on his own responsibility) to wield (draw) a sword against him that is a thrall to the decree of God?—"


Lets see the verse 4:78 once again:

Wherever you are, death will overtake you, though you are in lofty towers, and if a benefit comes to them the say: This is from Allah; and if a misfortune befalls them, they say: This is from you. Say: All is from Allah, but what is the matter with these people that they do not make approach to understanding what is told (them)?


How can you explain "Say: All is from Allah" (whether a benefit or misfortune)? And how can you explain the following statement of Sheikh Mufid keeping in view the verse 4:78?
 

 

 

So it seems you do disagree with Shaykh Al-Mufid (rah) then. I have seen commentary of this Verse, and what I have seen is that they say this is related to misfortune (sickness, poverty, drought etc..) not things like murder and fornication.

 Have you changed your opinion now, do you now think Allah wills evil?

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@E.L King, in continuation of my previous post & reference of verse 4:78 & 4:79, I found this in the tafseer of Agha Mehdi Poya:

"This verse throws light on the doctrines of determinism and free-will, a controversial issue in philosophy, theology, ethics and jurisprudence. The act of obedience and seeking help prove that human being exercise freedom of choice, and, therefore, are responsible for their actions, because they are not passive targets of Allah's activity, but have been given free-will by Allah to make their own decisions and act upon them. Their free-will and its outcome are conditioned by Allah's will, order and providence. The will of Allah does not directly determine the deeds of creatures, making the creatures' will entirely ineffective, in which case they would not be responsible for their actions, as the determinists say. It is true that the creatures cannot exercise absolute free-will because their actions and judgements have to abide by the laws created and enforced by the will of Allah as explained earlier while making clear the meaning of the word taqdir. As Imam Muhammad bin Ali al Baqir has said there is no predetermination as far as the activity of the created beings is concerned but every action is conditioned by the laws, made by Allah, operating the creation, so there can be no unbridled use of freedom. It is a conciliation between freedom of action and complying with the will of Allah.

In the Quran the predominance of Allah's will is mentioned to point out the overall supremacy of the laws made and enforced by Allah; and also the freedom of choice granted to man is confirmed to make it clear that although living beings have the freedom to do what they will, shouldering the responsibility of their actions, they cannot do away with the will of Allah. In common terminology it is a via media. Allah's activity can be described as "action", and the activity of the creature as "reaction". There cannot be a "reaction" without an "action". And if there is no "reaction" the action would be considered unproductive. In this sense Allah's action operates in the realm of creation to which the creatures, consciously or unconsciously, willingly or unwillingly, react. The action is conditioned by the nature of the "actor". The divine action, the outcome of Allah's boundless grace, can be nothing but pure good, but the reaction of the finite creature may take a different course and produce evil for which the bad receptivity of the finite creature should be held responsible. The Quran says:

Whatever good befalls you (O man) it is from Allah, and whatever of evil befalls you, it is from yourself; (NISA: 79) "

I think this will help you to understand why I was saying the will of Allah must be there for any action (which is basically a reaction of creation) to happen. And with this, we can understand why Allama Majlisi has criticized Roomi.

2 minutes ago, E.L King said:

Have you changed your opinion now, do you now think Allah wills evil?

No I have not changed my mind. I believe He is Owner & Bestower of "Kull Khayr". 

I am thankful to you that with this discussions, I got the chance to review my opinion about predestination & free will. 
What I am pleased to see is that my personal opinion which you have mentioned as "disagreement with Sheikh" i.e., every happening requires the will of Allah (as mentioned in above red underline words), is correct and I am not in any disagreement with that great scholar.  

 

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4 minutes ago, E.L King said:

So it seems you do disagree with Shaykh Al-Mufid (rah) then. I have seen commentary of this Verse, and what I have seen is that they say this is related to misfortune (sickness, poverty, drought etc..) not things like murder and fornication.

 Have you changed your opinion now, do you now think Allah wills evil?

This is implying Allah can be described with the attributes of oppression. Such thing is ascribing a weakness to Him.

Read the next Verse: (4:79) Whatever good happens to you is from Allah; and whatever misfortune smites you is because of your own action. We have sent you to mankind (O Muhammad!) as a Messenger, and Allah is sufficient as a witness.

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1 minute ago, SunniBrother said:

This is implying Allah can be described with the attributes of oppression. Such thing is ascribing a weakness to Him.

Read the next Verse: (4:79) Whatever good happens to you is from Allah; and whatever misfortune smites you is because of your own action. We have sent you to mankind (O Muhammad!) as a Messenger, and Allah is sufficient as a witness.

It seems you have misunderstood this conversation. I am arguing that evil and oppression cannot be attributed to Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى, not the opposite.

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5 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

@E.L King, in continuation of my previous post & reference of verse 4:78 & 4:79, I found this in the tafseer of Agha Mehdi Poya:

"This verse throws light on the doctrines of determinism and free-will, a controversial issue in philosophy, theology, ethics and jurisprudence. The act of obedience and seeking help prove that human being exercise freedom of choice, and, therefore, are responsible for their actions, because they are not passive targets of Allah's activity, but have been given free-will by Allah to make their own decisions and act upon them. Their free-will and its outcome are conditioned by Allah's will, order and providence. The will of Allah does not directly determine the deeds of creatures, making the creatures' will entirely ineffective, in which case they would not be responsible for their actions, as the determinists say. It is true that the creatures cannot exercise absolute free-will because their actions and judgements have to abide by the laws created and enforced by the will of Allah as explained earlier while making clear the meaning of the word taqdir. As Imam Muhammad bin Ali al Baqir has said there is no predetermination as far as the activity of the created beings is concerned but every action is conditioned by the laws, made by Allah, operating the creation, so there can be no unbridled use of freedom. It is a conciliation between freedom of action and complying with the will of Allah.

In the Quran the predominance of Allah's will is mentioned to point out the overall supremacy of the laws made and enforced by Allah; and also the freedom of choice granted to man is confirmed to make it clear that although living beings have the freedom to do what they will, shouldering the responsibility of their actions, they cannot do away with the will of Allah. In common terminology it is a via media. Allah's activity can be described as "action", and the activity of the creature as "reaction". There cannot be a "reaction" without an "action". And if there is no "reaction" the action would be considered unproductive. In this sense Allah's action operates in the realm of creation to which the creatures, consciously or unconsciously, willingly or unwillingly, react. The action is conditioned by the nature of the "actor". The divine action, the outcome of Allah's boundless grace, can be nothing but pure good, but the reaction of the finite creature may take a different course and produce evil for which the bad receptivity of the finite creature should be held responsible. The Quran says:

Whatever good befalls you (O man) it is from Allah, and whatever of evil befalls you, it is from yourself; (NISA: 79) "

I think this will help you to understand why I was saying the will of Allah must be there for any action (which is basically a reaction of creation) to happen. And with this, we can understand why Allama Majlisi has criticized Roomi.

No I have not changed my mind. I believe He is Owner & Bestower of "Kull Khayr". 

I am thankful to you that with this discussions, I got the chance to review my opinion about predestination & free will. 
What I am pleased to see is that my personal opinion which you have mentioned as "disagreement with Sheikh" i.e., every happening requires the will of Allah (as mentioned in above red underline words), is correct and I am not in any disagreement with that great scholar.  

 

Thank you for this discussion as well brother. I really enjoy discussing with my mu'min brothers and sisters but sometimes I get passionate about my opinions so if I insulted you or attacked you in any personal manner I beg you to forgive me.

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Just now, E.L King said:

Thank you for this discussion as well brother. I really enjoy discussing with my mu'min brothers and sisters but sometimes I get passionate about my opinions so if I insulted you or attacked you in any personal manner I beg you to forgive me.

I have not taken it as insult, brother.

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Imam Al Sadiq And Discussion With Sufis

http://www.sibtayn.com/en/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5835:imam-al-sadiq-and-discussion-with-sufis&catid=565&Itemid=649

This will surely make you near to Allah and take you away from ignorance. Leave unenlightenment to its people, for the people of ignorance are too many while the people of knowledge are too little. Allah said: Over every knowledgeable person is one more knowing. (Holy Qur'an 12:76).

Reference:Tuhaf al-Uqool

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9 hours ago, SunniBrother said:

Imam ‘Ali was asked by one of his companions, Tha΄lab al-Yamani whether he had seen his Lord. Imam ‘Ali replied, “How can I worship something that I do not see?” When asked how he saw Him, Imam ‘Ali replied, “Eyes do not reach Him with physical sight, but the hearts reach Him with the realities of belief.”- Nahjul Balagha

But the hearts reach Him with the REALITIES OF BELIEF 

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