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In the Name of God بسم الله
Urwatul Wuthqa

28:68 & Saqifah

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4 hours ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

68] Your Lord creates whatever He wills; and chooses (for His work whomever He pleases). To choose is not for them. Allah is Pure and Exalted far above the shirk that these people commit.

69] Your Lord knows what they hide in their hearts and what they reveal.

70] He is Allah, the One: none but He is worthy of worship: to Him is all praise due, both in this world and in the Hereafter: Sovereignty is His, and to Him shall all of you be returned.

71] O Prophet, say to them, "Have you ever considered that if Allah should make the night perpetual for you, till the Day of Resurrection, which deity, besides Allah, would bring you light? Don't you hear anything?"

72] Ask them, "Have you ever considered that if Allah should make the day perpetual for you, till the Day of Resurrection, which deity, besides Allah, would bring you the night so that you may have rest in it? Don't you see anything?"
73] It is His Mercy that He has made the night and the day for you so that you may have rest (in the night) and seek your Lord's bounty (in the day); maybe that you are grateful.

Again jumping here & there :)... why? 

What was the status of Abu Bakr? Khalifatullah or Kalifatunnas or Khalifatul muslimeen?

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8 hours ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

Verse 28:68 is about mushrikeen makkah's beliefs about false gods, prophets, angels. This verse is talking about shirk. Dont single out verses just because it suits you.

[68-73] Your Lord creates whatever He wills; and chooses (for His work whomever He pleases). To choose is not for them. Allah is Pure and Exalted far above the shirk that these people commit. Your Lord knows what they hide in their hearts and what they reveal. He is Allah, the One: none but He is worthy of worship: to Him is all praise due, both in this world and in the Hereafter: Sovereignty is His, and to Him shall all of you be returned. O Prophet, say to them, "Have you ever considered that if Allah should make the night perpetual for you, till the Day of Resurrection, which deity, besides Allah, would bring you light? Don't you hear anything?" Ask them, "Have you ever considered that if Allah should make the day perpetual for you, till the Day of Resurrection, which deity, besides Allah, would bring you the night so that you may have rest in it? Don't you see anything?" It is His Mercy that He has made the night and the day for you so that you may have rest (in the night) and seek your Lord's bounty (in the day); maybe that you are grateful.

The verse quoted above has certainly no proof for the people chosen caliph and it denies the sunni phenomenon of man made caliphate. Rather it again denies thue sunni concept of peole chosen caliph that it is right of Allah swt

wasalam 

 

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18 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

Please quote any verse of Quran from which you can support what happened in Saqifa. The verse 68 of Qasas clearly says the opposite of what companions did in Saqifa. So there is no need to run zigzag and try to derail the thread. I suggest you to quote any single verse of Quran which can support what happened in Saqifa.

Verse 68 is talking about shirk. Read it properly within the context. 

22 hours ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

Verse 28:68 is about mushrikeen makkah's beliefs about false gods, prophets, angels. This verse is talking about shirk. Dont single out verses just because it suits you.

[68-73] Your Lord creates whatever He wills; and chooses (for His work whomever He pleases). To choose is not for them. Allah is Pure and Exalted far above the shirk that these people commit. Your Lord knows what they hide in their hearts and what they reveal. He is Allah, the One: none but He is worthy of worship: to Him is all praise due, both in this world and in the Hereafter: Sovereignty is His, and to Him shall all of you be returned. O Prophet, say to them, "Have you ever considered that if Allah should make the night perpetual for you, till the Day of Resurrection, which deity, besides Allah, would bring you light? Don't you hear anything?" Ask them, "Have you ever considered that if Allah should make the day perpetual for you, till the Day of Resurrection, which deity, besides Allah, would bring you the night so that you may have rest in it? Don't you see anything?" It is His Mercy that He has made the night and the day for you so that you may have rest (in the night) and seek your Lord's bounty (in the day); maybe that you are grateful.

 

As for saqifa and caliphate is concerned Imam Ali (as) had clearly said this responsibilty is confined to muhajirun and anssar and their choice is with pleasure of Allah. If yopu are not accepting then I can not do anything. Muawiya also did not accept Imam Ali's words. Currently you, other twelvers and muawiya are on same page in this matter.

On 11/7/2017 at 11:50 AM, Munzir Ahmed said:

Verily, those who swore allegiance to Abu Bakr, `Umar and `Uthman have sworn allegiance 1 to me on the same basis on which they swore allegiance to them. (On this basis) he who was present has no choice (to consider), and he who was absent has no right to reject; and consultation is confined to the muhajirun and the ansar. If they agree on an individual and take him to be Caliph it will be deemed to mean Allah's pleasure.

Bold part is the most important one. That Allah's pleasure is with the one who is chosen by muhajirun and ansaar. Strong words. In other words after the finality of prophethood Allah's pleasure means which is agreed upon by muhajirun and ansaar. Same group fought against the apostates and the false prophets during the time of Abu bakr, and the same group also fought against the rebellions during the time of Ali. 

 

18 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

"1. When all the people of Medina unanimously swore allegiance to Amir al-mu`minin, Mu`awiyah refused to acquiesce apprehending danger for his own power, and in order to contest Amir al-mu'minin's caliphate he concocted the excuse that it had not been agreed to unaulmously and that there fore after cancelling it there should be another general election, although the caliphate from which (the process of) election was started was the result of a timely situation. There was no question of the common vote therein so that it could be called the result of the people's election. However, it was imposed on the people and assumed to be their verdict. From then it became a principle that whomever the nobles of Medina elected would be deemed to represent the entire world of Islam and no person would be allowed to question it, whether he was present at the time of election or not. In any case, after the establishment of the principle, Mu`awiyah had no right to propose a re-election nor to refuse allegiance when he had in practice recognized these caliphates which, it was alleged, had been settled by the important people of Medina. That is why when he held this election to be invalid and refused allegiance,
Amir al-mu'minin pointed out to him the (recognized) way of election and demolished his argument. It was a method known as arguing with the adversary on the basis of his wrong premises so as to demolish his argument, since Amir al-mu'minin never at any state regarded consultation (with chiefs) or the common vote to be the criterion of validity of the caliphate. Otherwise, in connection with the caliphate about which it is alleged that they were based on the unanimity of the muhajirun and the ansar, he would have regarded that unanimity of vote as a good authority and held them as valid; but his refusal for allegiance in the very first period, which cannot be denied by anyone, is a proof of the fact that he did not regard these self-concocted methods as the criterion of (validity of) the caliphate. That is why at all times he continued pressing his own case for the caliphate, which was also established on the basis of the Prophet's saying and deeds. However, to place it before Mu`awiyah meant opening the door to questions and answers. He therefore attempted to convince him with his own premises and beliefs so that there could be no scope for interpretation or for confusing the matter, in fact Mu'awiyah's real aim was to prolong the matter so that at some point his own authority might get support."

 

 

This part make this assumed explanation irrelevant.

and consultation is confined to the muhajirun and the ansar. If they agree on an individual and take him to be Caliph it will be deemed to mean Allah's pleasure.

Why you have problem in matters where there is Allah's pleasure? Why are you behaving like muawiya here?

 

18 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

Same group has fought against each other in the battle of Jamal, same group has fought against each other in battle of Siffin, Nehrwan....Muhajirun & Ansar killed each other in these battles... If we assume your meaning i.e., Allah's pleasure means which is agreed upon by muhajirun & ansaar, that would mean Allah has not showed us the right way. There is no sirat and there is no Allah's pleasure from last hundreds of years as there are no muhajirun or ansaar.

No. Not same group. By same group it means people of madina (muhajirun and ansaar). Only a few (very small number) fought in those battles from rebellions side. Majority of ahle madina was on Imam Ali's side. Some were also neutral. Most of rebellions were either people of basra or people of syria.

No muhajirun and anssar? seriously. Where is your 12th Imam? to whom you are supposed to follow not any marja? he is absent since 260AH.  Its really too much.

Allah has clearly shown us the right way. His prophet saw has told us each and everything that will happen till qiyamah. He said first there will be a priod of rightly guided caliphs (to which Imam Ali is also saying it is pleasure of Allah), then there will be kings (good and bad), then some colonial powers will rule and there will be divisions like we have today in name of states or countires then finally rightful caliphate at hand of Imam Mahdi. Read all ahadith on this subject then reach a conclusion.

18 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

You can further ponder on this verse, what has been said in the last? Refusing to accept or rejecting the what Allah has chosen equals to shirk.

Lets see some verses:

"Surely (as for) those who return on their backs after the guidance has become manifest to them, the Shaitan has made it a light matter to them; and He gives them respite. That is because they say to those who hate what Allah has revealed: We will obey you in some of the affairs; and Allah knows their secrets." (47:25-26)

I dont pick and choose a verse or part of a verse out of context and make wrong interpretations.

If choice is not yours then why twelvers are choosing marja of their own choice. If you want to apply this verse then do it properly.

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18 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

Again jumping here & there :)... why? 

What was the status of Abu Bakr? Khalifatullah or Kalifatunnas or Khalifatul muslimeen?

Those who are picking and choosing parts of verses are jumping here and there.

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15 hours ago, skyweb1987 said:
23 hours ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

 

[68-73] Your Lord creates whatever He wills; and chooses (for His work whomever He pleases). To choose is not for them. Allah is Pure and Exalted far above the shirk that these people commit. Your Lord knows what they hide in their hearts and what they reveal. He is Allah, the One: none but He is worthy of worship: to Him is all praise due, both in this world and in the Hereafter: Sovereignty is His, and to Him shall all of you be returned. O Prophet, say to them, "Have you ever considered that if Allah should make the night perpetual for you, till the Day of Resurrection, which deity, besides Allah, would bring you light? Don't you hear anything?" Ask them, "Have you ever considered that if Allah should make the day perpetual for you, till the Day of Resurrection, which deity, besides Allah, would bring you the night so that you may have rest in it? Don't you see anything?" It is His Mercy that He has made the night and the day for you so that you may have rest (in the night) and seek your Lord's bounty (in the day); maybe that you are grateful.

The verse quoted above has certainly no proof for the people chosen caliph and it denies the sunni phenomenon of man made caliphate. Rather it again denies thue sunni concept of peole chosen caliph that it is right of Allah swt

Did I say above verses have proof for people chosen caliph? Now you are assuming too much.

What I was saying is this:

23 hours ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

Verse 28:68 is about mushrikeen makkah's beliefs about false gods, prophets, angels. This verse is talking about shirk. Dont single out verses just because it suits you.

 

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18 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

I don't know why you feel the need to discuss taqiyyah here?

Because to whom you consider divinely appointed were so powerless and cowards that they needed taqqiyah to save their lives, this also you claim. Makes no sense.

In this case people chosen caliphs were better, at least they never did taqqiyah. In other words they never misguided people.

Any example in Quran where a divienly appointed person had performed taqqiyah in matters of dawah and guiding others so much that they had no clue about who is the next guide after him?

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7 hours ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

This part make this assumed explanation irrelevant.

:) And it is provided there for people like you with proper reference to the context.

7 hours ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

and consultation is confined to the muhajirun and the ansar. If they agree on an individual and take him to be Caliph it will be deemed to mean Allah's pleasure.

This is in contradiction with 28:68, no one is authorized to chose waliullah, wasi-ur-rasoolallah, khalifatullah & hujjatullah. 

7 hours ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

Why you have problem in matters where there is Allah's pleasure? Why are you behaving like muawiya here?

Pleasure of Allah! Do you know who owns that?

Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 207:

Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 207:
وَمِنَ النَّاسِ مَن يَشْرِي نَفْسَهُ ابْتِغَاءَ مَرْضَاتِ اللَّهِ وَاللَّهُ رَءُوفٌ بِالْعِبَادِ

And among men is he who sells himself to seek the pleasure of Allah; and Allah is Affectionate to the servants.
(English - Shakir)

Again the man Ali ibn Abi Talib (asws). Talking about pleasure of Allah & avoiding to take Ali as your Mowla, that is sufficient for proving who is behaving like Muawiyah (L).

8 hours ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

If choice is not yours then why twelvers are choosing marja of their own choice. If you want to apply this verse then do it properly.

:) Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman were your marjas? In saqifa, ignorants have elected the Khalifah not the marja.

And for marja & faqih we have this verse in Quran:

Surah At-Taubah, Verse 122:
وَمَا كَانَ الْمُؤْمِنُونَ لِيَنفِرُوا كَافَّةً فَلَوْلَا نَفَرَ مِن كُلِّ فِرْقَةٍ مِّنْهُمْ طَائِفَةٌ لِّيَتَفَقَّهُوا فِي الدِّينِ وَلِيُنذِرُوا قَوْمَهُمْ إِذَا رَجَعُوا إِلَيْهِمْ لَعَلَّهُمْ يَحْذَرُونَ

And it does not beseem the believers that they should go forth all together; why should not then a company from every party from among them go forth that they may apply themselves to obtain understanding in religion, and that they may warn their people when they come back to them that they may be cautious?
(English - Shakir)

7 hours ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

Because to whom you consider divinely appointed were so powerless and cowards that they needed taqqiyah to save their lives, this also you claim. Makes no sense.

Let me tell you who were the cowards. Those who ran away from the battles of Uhad, Khandaq, Hunayn etc. Your chosen ones were running like Usayn Bolt in these battles. 

If you think taqaiyyah is the indication of cowardice, you must register your complaint to Allah why He has praised in Quran, the one who did the taqaiyyah :

Surah Ghafir, Verse 28:
وَقَالَ رَجُلٌ مُّؤْمِنٌ مِّنْ آلِ فِرْعَوْنَ يَكْتُمُ إِيمَانَهُ أَتَقْتُلُونَ رَجُلًا أَن يَقُولَ رَبِّيَ اللَّهُ وَقَدْ جَاءَكُم بِالْبَيِّنَاتِ مِن رَّبِّكُمْ وَإِن يَكُ كَاذِبًا فَعَلَيْهِ كَذِبُهُ وَإِن يَكُ صَادِقًا يُصِبْكُم بَعْضُ الَّذِي يَعِدُكُمْ إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يَهْدِي مَنْ هُوَ مُسْرِفٌ كَذَّابٌ

And a believing man of Firon's people who hid his faith said: What! will you slay a man because he says: My Lord is Allah, and indeed he has brought to you clear arguments from your Lord? And if he be a liar, on him will be his lie, and if he be truthful, there will befall you some of that which he threatens you (with); surely Allah does not guide him who is extravagant, a liar:
(English - Shakir)

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On ‎10‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 10:17 AM, Munzir Ahmed said:

No muhajirun and anssar? seriously. Where is your 12th Imam? to whom you are supposed to follow not any marja? he is absent since 260AH.  Its really too much.

LOL, What is the definition of muhajir & ansaar? Do you think he is muhajir or ansaar? That means he is the only pleasure of Allah in this time (this is correct but in the sense that he is the hujjah & Wali of Allah s.w.t ).

Do you think Imam Mehdi exited in the times of first or second Hijrah? Or do you think he existed as ansaar & received the muhajireen, tied in the relation of brotherhood with someone by Prophet?  

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Here is the verse of Quran which you are asking. Not only a verse in fact there is an entire surah with name shura (consultation), while same is not present in your case.

I am quoting here the entire passage not just a verse out of context.

[36-43] Whatever you have been given, is merely a provision for the transitory life of this world, and that which is with Allah is better as well as more lasting. That is for those who have believed and put their trust in their Lord. Who refrain from gross sins and indecencies. Who, when they are angry, forgive. Who obey their Lord, establish the Salat, and conduct their affairs by mutual consultation. Who spend out of what We have given them as sustenance. Who, when they are oppressed, help and defend themselves. The recompense of evil is a like evil, then whoever pardons and seeks reconcilement, his reward is with Allah. Allah does not like the wrongdoers. And those who avenge themselves after they have been wronged, cannot be held blameworthy, for blameworthy indeed are those who oppress others and commit excesses in the land without any right. For such people there is a painful torment. However, the one who practices patience and is forgiving. these indeed are works of great courage and resolution.

This thing has been counted here as one of the best quality of believers. Clearly an opposition to your version of choice is not yours (which you have taken out of context from quran which in fact is talking about matters related to shirk). If choice is not ours then why to do consultation. The verse says conduct your affairs with mutual consultation, caliphate is surely the biggest affair of all. In contrast to conduct the affairs of collective life without consultation is not only the way of ignorance but also a clear violation of the law prescribed by Allah. This law became violeted from the time when Yazid came into power. He was the first one who was made caliph without consultation. So blame is on wrongdoers not on the precribed rule by Allah. Ahadith also tells us that there will be both good and bad caliphs in this ummah. Imam Ali also once cursed people of kufa that may Allah give me good followers and them a bad ruler.

Now read letter 6 once again in light of this verse. Just like muawiyah this letter is also a reference to all those who reject the shura system of caliphate.

Verily, those who swore allegiance to Abu Bakr, `Umar and `Uthman have sworn allegiance 1 to me on the same basis on which they swore allegiance to them. (On this basis) he who was present has no choice (to consider), and he who was absent has no right to reject; and consultation is confined to the muhajirun and the ansar. If they agree on an individual and take him to be Caliph it will be deemed to mean Allah's pleasure.

And prophet saww also used to consult with muhajirun and ansaar and with other tribal chiefs for their collective affairs like battles, etc except in cases where direct revelation came. This consultation was also a part of revelation enjoined by Allah swt during the prophethood of prophet saww.  Thus making it an important pillar of islam.

[159-160] (O Messenger,) it is a great mercy of Allah that you are very gentle and lenient towards them: for, had you been harsh and hard hearted, they all would have broken away from you: so pardon them and implore Allah to forgive them, and take counsel with them in the conduct of the affairs; then, when once you make up your mind (to do a thing), trust in Allah (and do it). Allah likes those who trust in Him in whatever they do. If Allah helps you, no power can overcome you, and if He forsakes you, who is there, then, after Him to help you? Therefore, true believers should trust in Allah alone.

This is the system of government mentioned in quran and is described as one of the best qulaity of believers, unlike imamah. Now answer me following: Where it is mentioned in quran that believing in imams is part of faith, or there will be twelve imams in this ummah etc? Do you have any similar unambiguous verse in quran like we have for shura system? Instead of taking parts of verses from here and there show me just one clear verse showing what you claim. Dont tell me since this and that happened in bani israel so we also have the same rules. There were many things in bani israel which we dont have in final ummah.

This thread may help you http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/61569-the-concept-of-imamah-in-the-quran/

You asked for one verse and ALHAMDULILAH I found mulitple.

We ahlul sunnah believe in quranic system of government, unlike so called imamah concept which is nothing but a man made theory with confused reality. On death of every single Imam people differed badly on who is the next possible Imam. This clearly shows the absence of any nass or narrations with names of imams etc at that time. Thus even some of their sons claimed imamah for themselves, like Abdullah Aftah, son of Jafar Sadiq. For more on this confused reality refer following sources:

Book “Firaq al Shia” by Al Hassan bin Musa Abu Muhammad al Nawbakhti, also in the books al Fusoul al Mukhtarah by Muhammad bin Muhammad bin al Nu’uman known as al Mufid, Bihar al Anwar vol 47 by Muhammad Baqir al Majlisi.

w.salam

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11 minutes ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

Who obey their Lord, establish the Salat, and conduct their affairs by mutual consultation.

"wa amrohum shura baynahum"

Caliphate is not their amr.... 28:68 clarifies it clearly..

"And your Lord creates and chooses whom He pleases; to choose is not theirs;"

Edited by Salsabeel

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12 minutes ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

Now read letter 6 once again in light of this verse. Just like muawiyah this letter is also a reference to all those who reject the shura system of caliphate.

:) There is no shura on the matter related to the choice of Allah (s.w.t)

وَإِذْ قَالَ رَبُّكَ لِلْمَلاَئِكَةِ إِنِّي جَاعِلٌ فِي الأَرْضِ خَلِيفَةً

يَا دَاوُودُ إِنَّا جَعَلْنَاكَ خَلِيفَةً فِي الْأَرْضِ فَاحْكُم بَيْنَ النَّاسِ بِالْحَقِّ

Choosing Khalifah is not the responsibility or duty of human beings.

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On 11/10/2017 at 6:39 PM, Salsabeel said:
On 11/10/2017 at 10:17 AM, Munzir Ahmed said:

and consultation is confined to the muhajirun and the ansar. If they agree on an individual and take him to be Caliph it will be deemed to mean Allah's pleasure.

This is in contradiction with 28:68, no one is authorized to chose waliullah, wasi-ur-rasoolallah, khalifatullah & hujjatullah.

No this is exactly in accordance with the amruhum shura baynahum command of Allah. These words of Imam Ali are the practical implimentation or validation of shura command in Quran. it will be deemed to mean Allah's pleasure.

Verse of ulil amr 4:59 is consistant with verse of consultation, amruhum shuran baynahum. THus they consulted for their amr of caliphate and chose an ulil amr. Both verses do mention clearly word amr. No any assumptions. This also has support in prophetic ahadith some of which I quoted in my last posts, also in history and in words of Imam Ali letter 6 and in other sections of nahjul balagha, see here http://www.*************/2015/12/12/nahjul-balagha-contradicts-shia-teachings/.

Now coming back to your claims which are full of assumptions.

Verse 28:68 do not mention any amr let alone caliphate, its just your assumption that say its about caliphate only. In fact verse is related to shirk. So your claim as per this verse is meaningless and is invalid, hence rejected so dont repeat that again ever.

On 11/10/2017 at 6:39 PM, Salsabeel said:
On 11/10/2017 at 10:17 AM, Munzir Ahmed said:

Why you have problem in matters where there is Allah's pleasure? Why are you behaving like muawiya here?

Pleasure of Allah! Do you know who owns that?

Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 207:

Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 207:
وَمِنَ النَّاسِ مَن يَشْرِي نَفْسَهُ ابْتِغَاءَ مَرْضَاتِ اللَّهِ وَاللَّهُ رَءُوفٌ بِالْعِبَادِ

And among men is he who sells himself to seek the pleasure of Allah; and Allah is Affectionate to the servants.
(English - Shakir)

Again the man Ali ibn Abi Talib (asws). Talking about pleasure of Allah & avoiding to take Ali as your Mowla, that is sufficient for proving who is behaving like Muawiyah (L).

Those were words of Imam Ali, not mine. So basically you are teaching him the lessons. Go ahead.

Do you have any similar saying from Imam Ali justifying your claims for 28:68. Whereas as you can clearly see for consultation verse there is letter 6 from Imam Ali justifying the command of Allah and validating the shura system.

He is mawla of every believer, alhamdulilah. Difference is only of meaning. 

On 11/10/2017 at 6:39 PM, Salsabeel said:
On 11/10/2017 at 10:17 AM, Munzir Ahmed said:

If choice is not yours then why twelvers are choosing marja of their own choice. If you want to apply this verse then do it properly.

:) Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman were your marjas? In saqifa, ignorants have elected the Khalifah not the marja.

And for marja & faqih we have this verse in Quran:

Surah At-Taubah, Verse 122:
وَمَا كَانَ الْمُؤْمِنُونَ لِيَنفِرُوا كَافَّةً فَلَوْلَا نَفَرَ مِن كُلِّ فِرْقَةٍ مِّنْهُمْ طَائِفَةٌ لِّيَتَفَقَّهُوا فِي الدِّينِ وَلِيُنذِرُوا قَوْمَهُمْ إِذَا رَجَعُوا إِلَيْهِمْ لَعَلَّهُمْ يَحْذَرُونَ

And it does not beseem the believers that they should go forth all together; why should not then a company from every party from among them go forth that they may apply themselves to obtain understanding in religion, and that they may warn their people when they come back to them that they may be cautious?
(English - Shakir)

No. Neither they are caliphs today nor are marja today. They were of their time. Same applys to Imam Ali. As per your concept of Imamah your imam is 12th one not the 1st one. Remember that. 

This verse in fact reject your divine imamah concept which says for guidance there are only 12 imams/caliphs for whole world. How is this even possible. And out of 12, 11 imams for about 250 years and the last one till qiyamam and who in fact is absent from his post for over thousands years. Makes no sense. Practicallt this so called system of imamah is not practical and contain many flaws.

That is why Allah sent down the instruction that necessary steps should be taken for the integration of the Islamic Community so that it may keep pace with the immense increase in its number. Therefore some people should be brought out from every habitation and taught and trained in the requirements of Islam and these in their turn should teach and train their own people so that the whole Muslim population should understand Islam and obtain the knowledge of the limits prescribed by Allah.

On 11/10/2017 at 6:39 PM, Salsabeel said:
On 11/10/2017 at 10:33 AM, Munzir Ahmed said:

Because to whom you consider divinely appointed were so powerless and cowards that they needed taqqiyah to save their lives, this also you claim. Makes no sense.

Let me tell you who were the cowards. Those who ran away from the battles of Uhad, Khandaq, Hunayn etc. Your chosen ones were running like Usayn Bolt in these battles. 

If you think taqaiyyah is the indication of cowardice, you must register your complaint to Allah why He has praised in Quran, the one who did the taqaiyyah :

Surah Ghafir, Verse 28:
وَقَالَ رَجُلٌ مُّؤْمِنٌ مِّنْ آلِ فِرْعَوْنَ يَكْتُمُ إِيمَانَهُ أَتَقْتُلُونَ رَجُلًا أَن يَقُولَ رَبِّيَ اللَّهُ وَقَدْ جَاءَكُم بِالْبَيِّنَاتِ مِن رَّبِّكُمْ وَإِن يَكُ كَاذِبًا فَعَلَيْهِ كَذِبُهُ وَإِن يَكُ صَادِقًا يُصِبْكُم بَعْضُ الَّذِي يَعِدُكُمْ إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يَهْدِي مَنْ هُوَ مُسْرِفٌ كَذَّابٌ

And a believing man of Firon's people who hid his faith said: What! will you slay a man because he says: My Lord is Allah, and indeed he has brought to you clear arguments from your Lord? And if he be a liar, on him will be his lie, and if he be truthful, there will befall you some of that which he threatens you (with); surely Allah does not guide him who is extravagant, a liar:
(English - Shakir)

That believing man was not appointed as a divine guide as you claim for ahlebayt. He was not supposed to guide people like you claim for ahlebayt. So your example is useless here. Wrong analogy.

For detailed answer on taqqiyah is here:

 

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On 11/11/2017 at 4:25 PM, Salsabeel said:

"wa amrohum shura baynahum"

Caliphate is not their amr.... 28:68 clarifies it clearly..

"And your Lord creates and chooses whom He pleases; to choose is not theirs;"

Verse 28:68 do not mention any amr let alone caliphate, its just your assumption that its about caliphate only. In fact verse is about shirk. So your claim as per this verse is meaningless and is invalid.

Verse of ulil amr 4:59 is consistant with verse of consultation, amruhum shuran baynahum. THus they consulted for their amr of caliphate and chose an ulil amr. Both verses do mention clearly word amr. No any assumptions. This also has support in prophetic ahadith some of which I quoted in my last posts, also in history and in words ofImam Ali,  in letter 6 and in other section of nahjul balagha here http://www.*************/2015/12/12/nahjul-balagha-contradicts-shia-teachings/.

w.salam

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On 11/11/2017 at 4:25 PM, Salsabeel said:

"wa amrohum shura baynahum"

Caliphate is not their amr.... 28:68 clarifies it clearly..

"And your Lord creates and chooses whom He pleases; to choose is not theirs;"

The Quran defines the chosen representatives of Allah swt include:

1.   Prophets 

2.   Imams

3.   Caliphs 

4.  Leaders 

So the verse 28:68 denies all types of  representatives to be chosen by the people but it is the right of Allah swt to choose his all representatives as mentioned above for the guidance of the people.

wasalam

Edited by skyweb1987

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3 hours ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

Those were words of Imam Ali, not mine.

Now the words of Abu Bakr & Umar are as follows:

Abu Bakr Once looked at a bird on a tree, then said,

"Well done bird ... You eat the fruits, you stand on the trees and you are not accountable to anybody nor indeed can anybody punish you. I wish I was a tree by the road, and that a camel would come along and eat me. then relieve me with his bowel evacuation ... I wish that I had been all that, rather than a human being."

[Tarikh al-Tabari Page 41]

[Al-Riyadh Al-Nadira, Vol 1 Page 134]

[Kanz al Ummal, Page 361]

[Minhaj as Sunnah, Ibn Taymiyya, Vol 3 Page 120]

Umer Said :

"I wish I was my family's sheep. They would have fattened me up to the maximum. When they were visited by friends, they would have killed me and roasted part of me, and made qadid (meat cut into strips and dried) from the other part of it, then they would have eaten me, and lastly, they would have relieved me with their bowle evacuation ... I wish I had been all that, rather than a human being."

[Minhaj as Sunnah, Ibn Taymiyya, Vol 3 Page 131]

[Hilyat al Awliya, Ibn Abi Nuaym, Vol 1 Page 52]

Those who want to give up the status of human being, give up the honor given by Allah,

were elected as leaders/caliphs. 

Allah has mentioned this in Quran:

Surah Al-Isra, Verse 70:
وَلَقَدْ كَرَّمْنَا بَنِي آدَمَ وَحَمَلْنَاهُمْ فِي الْبَرِّ وَالْبَحْرِ وَرَزَقْنَاهُم مِّنَ الطَّيِّبَاتِ وَفَضَّلْنَاهُمْ عَلَىٰ كَثِيرٍ مِّمَّنْ خَلَقْنَا تَفْضِيلًا

And surely We have honored the children of Adam, and We carry them in the land and the sea, and We have given them of the good things, and We have made them to excel by an appropriate excellence over most of those whom We have created.
(English - Shakir)

3 hours ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

Verse 28:68 do not mention any amr let alone caliphate, its just your assumption that its about caliphate only. In fact verse is about shirk. So your claim as per this verse is meaningless and is invalid.

:) chosing mushrik is Allah's job?

When you're insisting & demanding your association with Allah in choosing, the verse do point out this shirk. Now read the verse again:

Surah Al-Qasas, Verse 68:
وَرَبُّكَ يَخْلُقُ مَا يَشَاءُ وَيَخْتَارُ مَا كَانَ لَهُمُ الْخِيَرَةُ سُبْحَانَ اللَّهِ وَتَعَالَىٰ عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ

And your Lord creates and chooses whom He pleases; to choose is not theirs; glory be to Allah, and exalted be He above what they associate (with Him).
(English - Shakir)

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