Jesus and society

[Journal1 3]

Jesus does not require women to wear a hijab but requires our hearts to be pure, modest, and full of him. Why in Islam women wear hijab and think that they are close to God when in fact it does mean anything because I know women who wear hijab and tons of makeup and flirt with men. Is Islam misleading women by requiring them to wear hijab? or is this rule just for men to better control themselves. I do not understand. And if it is for men why should I be responsible for another person's lust or desires? As a woman in Middle East country I noticed because I do not wear Hijab, muslim men think they have more "right" to look at me? They stare, in Western countries men are more respectful of women. Middle Eastern men seem to think women are for them and if they do not wear hijab they are trying to show off. Is this the effect of Islam on society? I feel the Western society is better because I am not stared at like here in Middle East.

[monad 1,413]

you are confusing behavior of a cultural group with the teachings of religion.

You are assuming if a nation declares a particular type or religion, therefore the adherence should be the direct reflection of it. That never happens or has happened.

Is it possible to be of pure heart, modest, while walking around in a bikini?. if YES, define the purpose of a bikini?. Would the choice of a bikini type differ that from a slim woman?. Yes? why?, What is the motive?

Why do women in the summer feel the need to dress less then men?. No woman has ever answered this correctly?. A man can wear a suit, shirt or trousers, jeans, yet a women needs to dress in a skirt or dress, with cleavage showing?. What is the motive?.

In western nations, men are not more respectful, they have more accessibility to women without Hijab, however, a good looking woman will always get the higher look count then a female that isn't. I observe this everyday.

In the east, you have or had an ethical dress code, but with the advent of western movies, showing how loose women are in those, what do you think occurs to the psychology of those young men, when they see, either western clad women or imitation of such dress code?. They associate either behavior or appearance with that off, what they see in the television box.

Your claim of being starred at his hypocritical. You are a female, and it is natural for females to love attention, the current attention is nothing short of projecting fears or associating ill ideas to a particular group. If you did not get any attention, you would claim, that those groups hate and look down on women.

http://nietzsche.holtof.com/Nietzsche_human_all_too_human/sect7_Woman_and_child.htm

https://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/s/schopenhauer/arthur/essays/chapter5.html

 

[Qa'im 10,766]

Jesus (as) indeed came to reform the inner practice of the Children of Israel. But that does not mean that the outer practice must be destroyed or replaced, the two can work simultaneous with one another.

What you call the hijab is actually just the headscarf. Hijab is a holistic concept that cannot be limited to one garment. It is a spiritual and social practice, alongside its physical practice. A headscarf on its own, without the proper intention (niyya) and proper practice, is not going to mean much.

The reason for hijab is mentioned in 33:59 of the Noble Quran, in which Allah says,

"O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to bring down over themselves [part] of their outer garments. That is more suitable that they will be recognized and not be abused. And ever is Allah Forgiving and Merciful." (33:59)

33:59 provides two explicit reasons:

(1) So that they may be recognized. Clothing is a source of identification, and when a woman wears a khimar, we know what her rights are. There are specific laws in Islam pertaining to ritual purity, food, marriage, charity, testimonies, status, and crime where the religion of a person matters - so the khimar allows people to recognize her religion without bothering her. Part of this recognition may also be a way to raise society's moral standards, identifying the ideal muhajjiba as a free, respectful, trustworthy woman who should not tolerate injustice or base degeneracy in her surroundings. It is also a means for da`wa - many people use the khimar as a conversation ice-breaker.

(2) So that they may not be harassed. Of course covered sisters still face harassment, catcalling, and even rape, all of which is reprehensible. Of course, no woman should be harassed because of their clothing. But we know that clothing has communicative intent; it is a means by which many people explicitly or subtly broadcast their sexuality. In the same way we dress a certain way to a job interview to give a certain impression, your clothing is a message and a presentation. So in a society where women dress promiscuously, and expect men to also "make the first move" and be "confident and assertive", they will absolutely attract looks, stares, comments, awkward conversations, sleazy pick-up artists, DM slides, and other forms of unwanted attention. It really isn't rocket science - many women will attest that what they wear effects how people react to them in public.

The purpose of clothing in the Quran is to project elegance and cover shame and nakedness (7:26). In all instances, the hijab protects something sensitive from those who have not demonstrated a sincere connection to it. It prevents both intentional and accidental harm from coming to the object of value. Only those who have demonstrated a sincerity to the gem beyond the barrier can access its excellence. The precious pearl hides inside the oyster's mysterious shell. 

Likewise, even the hijab (both physical and social) of a woman from a stranger protects her from complete objectification. The only ones that can access her feminine energy, her motherhood, her personality, and her physical beauty are (1) her direct relatives, or (2) a man who has sought her expressed consent, the permission of her guardian, and has devoted himself to her sustenance. Once that sincerity is established, the barriers are gradually removed, one after the other.

The highest form of hijab is Allah’s. The hijab of Allah is Light. Allah’s Light is simultaneously both guidance to Him and a barrier between the creation and His Essence. On the Day of Mi`raj, Allah raised His Prophet (s) beyond the seven veils, nearer than two bow lengths to His divine presence (53:9), passed the Light that Jibra’il could not permeate, all the way up to Sidrat al-Muntaha. The mi`raj was the ultimate unveiling to the sincerest servant of the divine.

[father 85]

8 hours ago, Journal1 said:

I feel the Western society is better because I am not stared at like here in Middle East.

 this is what wonderlist is showing 3 years ago

8 Canada

It is an Amercing continent and the total reported cases of rape in this country are 2,516,918. These are only six percent of the total rape cases. It is reported that over one in three women had experienced a sexual assault and that only 6% of sexual assaults were reported to the police. According to Justice Institute of British Columbia, one out of every 17 women is raped, 62% of rape victims were physically injured, 9% were beaten or disfigured.

7. France

Rape was not a crime in France until 1980. Laws reinforcing women’s rights and safety are relatively recent in France. The law making rape a crime dates back only to 1980. Earlier decrees were based on 19th century moral codes. A law on sexual-harassment was approved in 1992 and one on moral harassment was passed in 2002. The last bill to fight violence against women was passed last year. Government studies show there are 75,000 rapes a year in the country. Only about 10 percent of the victims filed complaints. France is at the 7th position with the total reported crime of 3,771,850.

6. Germany

An estimate of 240,000 women and girls has died up till now in Germany because of this crime. Germany is on the number six in the highest rape crime with the figures of 6,507,394 in this year which is really a big figure. German Catholics have allowed the morning-after pills for the victims. The country moving forward in technology is actually moving really backward in humanity.

5. United Kingdom

Many people wish to live or even visit UK as it is one of the most developed countries. But they surely must not be aware that this country is also involved badly in the crime of rape. In January 2013, the Ministry of Justice (MoJ), Office for National Statistics (ONS) and Home Office released its first ever joint Official Statistics bulletin on sexual violence, entitled An Overview of Sexual Offending in England and Wales. According to report: Approximately 85,000 women are raped on average in England and Wales every year. Over 400,000 women are sexually assaulted each year. One in 5 women (aged 16 – 59) has experienced some form of sexual violence since the age of 16.

4. India

India is the place where sexual assault is rapidly increasing. Rape in India is one of India’s most common crimes against women. According to the National Crime Records Bureau 24,923 rape cases were reported across India in 2012, but experts agree that the number of unreported cases of sexual assault brings the total much higher. Out of these, 24,470 were committed by parents/family, relatives, neighbors and other known persons implying that , men known to the victim committed 98 per cent of reported rapes. The latest estimates suggest that a new case of rape is reported every 22 minutes in India.

See also; 10 Curious Scandals of Indian Swamis.

3. Sweden

Sweden has the highest incidence of reported rapes in Europe and one of the highest in the world. One amongst every four women comes out to be the victim of rape in Sweden. By 2010, The Swedish police recorded the highest number of offences – about 63 per 100,000 inhabitants. The country has third-highest rape crime in the world. In 2009 there were 15,700 reported sexual offenses in Sweden, a rise of 8% compared to 2008, of which 5,940 were rape and sexual harassment (including exhibitionism) accounted for 7,590 reports. In April 2009, it was reported that sex crimes had increased by 58% over the previous ten years. According to a 2009 European Union study, Sweden has one of the highest rates of reported rape in Europe.

2. South Africa

The country has one of the highest rates of rape in the world, with some 65,000 rapes and other sexual assaults reported for the year 2012. The incidence of rape has led to the country being referred to as the “rape capital of the world”. One in three of the 4,000 women questioned by the Community of Information, Empowerment and Transparency said they had been raped in the past year. More than 25 per cent of South African men questioned in a survey published by the Medical Research Council (MRC) admitted to rape; of those, nearly half said they had raped more than one person. Three out of four of those who had admitted rape indicated that they had attacked for the first time during their teens. South Africa has amongst the highest incidences of child and baby rape in the world. If the rapist is convicted, his prison time would be around 2 years.

1. United States

The super power of the world is at the first position in the race of rapes. Males are majorly the rapist holding a proportion of 99%. Out of all the victims, 91% are females while 9% are males. The U.S Bureau of Justice Statistics states that 91% of rape victims are female and 9% are male, and nearly 99% of rapists are male. According to the National Violence Against Women Survey, 1 in 6 U.S. women and 1 in 33 U.S. men has experienced an attempted or completed rape in their lifetime. More than a quarter of college-age women report having experienced a rape or rape attempt since age 14. Out of all, only 16% of the total cases are reported. Outdoor rape is not common in USA rather most of the rape cases takes place inside homes.

[father 85]

8 hours ago, Journal1 said:

Is Islam misleading women by requiring them to wear hijab?

why would women be mislead by wearing hijab?

[father 85]

8 hours ago, Journal1 said:

Why in Islam women wear hijab and think that they are close to God

 

8 hours ago, Journal1 said:

or is this rule just for men to better control themselves

you have got a wrong understanding and interpertation of things, people find you different not having hijab they might than stare but they should not

[father 85]

8 hours ago, Journal1 said:

As a woman in Middle East country I noticed because I do not wear Hijab, muslim men think they have more "right" to look at me?

islam teaches both men and women to lower your gaze and guard your modesty and teaches women not to show their finery

[Journal1 3]

9 hours ago, monad said:

you are confusing behavior of a cultural group with the teachings of religion.

You are assuming if a nation declares a particular type or religion, therefore the adherence should be the direct reflection of it. That never happens or has happened.

Is it possible to be of pure heart, modest, while walking around in a bikini?. if YES, define the purpose of a bikini?. Would the choice of a bikini type differ that from a slim woman?. Yes? why?, What is the motive?

Why do women in the summer feel the need to dress less then men?. No woman has ever answered this correctly?. A man can wear a suit, shirt or trousers, jeans, yet a women needs to dress in a skirt or dress, with cleavage showing?. What is the motive?.

In western nations, men are not more respectful, they have more accessibility to women without Hijab, however, a good looking woman will always get the higher look count then a female that isn't. I observe this everyday.

In the east, you have or had an ethical dress code, but with the advent of western movies, showing how loose women are in those, what do you think occurs to the psychology of those young men, when they see, either western clad women or imitation of such dress code?. They associate either behavior or appearance with that off, what they see in the television box.

Your claim of being starred at his hypocritical. You are a female, and it is natural for females to love attention, the current attention is nothing short of projecting fears or associating ill ideas to a particular group. If you did not get any attention, you would claim, that those groups hate and look down on women.

http://nietzsche.holtof.com/Nietzsche_human_all_too_human/sect7_Woman_and_child.htm

https://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/s/schopenhauer/arthur/essays/chapter5.html

 

Thank you for your insight and response. You offer great insight. You hit on great points as far as the bikini goes and even the way women dress in the summer. However I feel the need to clarify my question. I am asking the question for women like myself who navigate the world consciously, who wear long sleeve shirts in the summer (suffer when its hot as I see men here in the Middle East living life with T-Shirts, fresh cut beard, and free and comfortable as can be), the shirt is loose and long to go below my waist. I go as far to wear a scarf around my neck to further cover myself, and yet I walk down the street and see groups of men will just stare me down. This to me was culture shock! Everywhere I look someone's eyes in a crowded place met mine. I tried to connect with the other females in this country by looking at them and noticed they have tunnel vision and look straight ahead. They have developed this because they live in a society where they too, even with their hijab are stared at. I began to understand after time here why women wear the hijab and cover their face even. No one that respects themselves sexually wants to be a piece of meat for another person. I myself have to have tunnel vision when in public because I don't want someone to get the wrong message. The superiority that men hold over women is real. I learned my new place in society when I came to live here. I have even asked my male colleague to come with me sometimes because I know when I am with him, I have his superior status of manhood attached to me and I would not get disrespectfully stared at walking in this streets.

It seems women are reduced for their sexuality. This hijab itself sends a message to society that women are sexual objects that must be covered because of their sexuality. I feel their is a heightened sexuality here in the Middle East. For instance in the West, I can walk around (modest as I do) and I am respected enough where mobs of men do not all at once stare at me when I walk by. Men in the West see women only as a sexual object who clearly are placing themselves as a sexual object. (bikini or cleavage). If I am not doing that why do I receive the treatment I do, because I do not where a hijab?

Yes you are right that females naturally love attention and want to be adored but you are mistaken to think that all females would want this type of attention that is nothing but lust, a cheap sexual desire to use another person for its own gratification. This is actually disgusting and degrading to any man or woman that has it inflicted upon them. Women are human beings who like any person want to be loved and adored for who they are not the sum of their parts or what they possess. 

To understand for yourself, would you want all the love and attention from the world for having a lot of wealth or would you want to be loved and cared for by one person for who you were? The same with women, we do not want to be loved for our beauty or parts, but loved for our souls and inner beauty. Outer beauty fades, and in the mans example wealth fades as well.

In conclusion, I want to say not EVERY man here is like this, it is just a overall experience of the society that I have had. I wonder if the religious dedication to wearing the hijab is creating these heightened sexual conditions that are here. I even have drawn the conclusion that it could be because the population is homogenous and therefore more sexually attracted to each other and stimulated. (In the United States, especially my city, it is so ethnically diverse most men and women are not attracted to each other. Me, being a Latina, maybe only Latinos are attracted to me but I am around Asians, Whites, Islanders, Blacks so we do not view each other in reproductive ways Same goes for a man in the West who is maybe only attracted to women of his ethnicity. I mention this so the reader can see I am not picking on the "hijab" but am  also considering other factors of why this society is so different is like this.)

 

[Journal1 3]

8 hours ago, Qa'im said:

Jesus (as) indeed came to reform the inner practice of the Children of Israel. But that does not mean that the outer practice must be destroyed or replaced, the two can work simultaneous with one another.

What you call the hijab is actually just the headscarf. Hijab is a holistic concept that cannot be limited to one garment. It is a spiritual and social practice, alongside its physical practice. A headscarf on its own, without the proper intention (niyya) and proper practice, is not going to mean much.

The reason for hijab is mentioned in 33:59 of the Noble Quran, in which Allah says,

"O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to bring down over themselves [part] of their outer garments. That is more suitable that they will be recognized and not be abused. And ever is Allah Forgiving and Merciful." (33:59)

33:59 provides two explicit reasons:

(1) So that they may be recognized. Clothing is a source of identification, and when a woman wears a khimar, we know what her rights are. There are specific laws in Islam pertaining to ritual purity, food, marriage, charity, testimonies, status, and crime where the religion of a person matters - so the khimar allows people to recognize her religion without bothering her. Part of this recognition may also be a way to raise society's moral standards, identifying the ideal muhajjiba as a free, respectful, trustworthy woman who should not tolerate injustice or base degeneracy in her surroundings. It is also a means for da`wa - many people use the khimar as a conversation ice-breaker.

(2) So that they may not be harassed. Of course covered sisters still face harassment, catcalling, and even rape, all of which is reprehensible. Of course, no woman should be harassed because of their clothing. But we know that clothing has communicative intent; it is a means by which many people explicitly or subtly broadcast their sexuality. In the same way we dress a certain way to a job interview to give a certain impression, your clothing is a message and a presentation. So in a society where women dress promiscuously, and expect men to also "make the first move" and be "confident and assertive", they will absolutely attract looks, stares, comments, awkward conversations, sleazy pick-up artists, DM slides, and other forms of unwanted attention. It really isn't rocket science - many women will attest that what they wear effects how people react to them in public.

The purpose of clothing in the Quran is to project elegance and cover shame and nakedness (7:26). In all instances, the hijab protects something sensitive from those who have not demonstrated a sincere connection to it. It prevents both intentional and accidental harm from coming to the object of value. Only those who have demonstrated a sincerity to the gem beyond the barrier can access its excellence. The precious pearl hides inside the oyster's mysterious shell. 

Likewise, even the hijab (both physical and social) of a woman from a stranger protects her from complete objectification. The only ones that can access her feminine energy, her motherhood, her personality, and her physical beauty are (1) her direct relatives, or (2) a man who has sought her expressed consent, the permission of her guardian, and has devoted himself to her sustenance. Once that sincerity is established, the barriers are gradually removed, one after the other.

The highest form of hijab is Allah’s. The hijab of Allah is Light. Allah’s Light is simultaneously both guidance to Him and a barrier between the creation and His Essence. On the Day of Mi`raj, Allah raised His Prophet (s) beyond the seven veils, nearer than two bow lengths to His divine presence (53:9), passed the Light that Jibra’il could not permeate, all the way up to Sidrat al-Muntaha. The mi`raj was the ultimate unveiling to the sincerest servant of the divine.

Thank you for your insight. I enjoyed reading it and learned a lot. I always agree that modesty to me is so beautiful, that's why I wear it. I do not wear a hijab, but I wear modesty, and I set and example for my niece and young girls who look up to me.

I agree with 1) and 2), of course. However I would like to peer closer into your statement where you reference the woman as being "the object of value/ gem/ barrier/ access its excellence" you even go as far to say "The precious pearl hides inside the oyster's mysterious shell" . Correct me if I am wrong but these references all seem to be referring to women's sexuality. I began to be critical if you are again objectifying woman and devaluing them to a merely "sexual" value. Then as I read further I see you mention that the hijab is a protection against this objectification. And name the things of value being her "feminine energy, motherhood, PERSONALITY (there goes a winner), and physical beauty. Of all these things you mention the only one I see as being one of acknowledging the woman beyond the identity of "sexuality" is personality. A notable way in which women express their personality is through hair style so I see how the Hijab does hide that. 

Despite my critique of the Hijab, I personally see it as beautiful because modesty to me is beautiful. I just wonder at the expense of what, at the expense of freedom? I wonder if I wear a Hijab how I would no longer be me. I would be covered and stigmatized. I believe I can be modestly beautiful without wearing a scarf around my hair, and even more so because I feel the wind in my hair and have the smile of freedom on my face. However if Jesus asked me right now to wear a hijab I would. If Jesus asked me to shave my head bald for his sake I would. Maybe one day he will ask me something hard, I would do it. As for now it is not compulsory for Christian women to wear Hijab, so we will continue being modestly beautiful! (hopefully lol, some sisters in my faith are still learning, as we all are learning more about what God desires of us. And keep in mind many women are lost seeking love in the world and think lust is love, but when they discover God's love they no longer have to seek this kind of attention.)

May we as believers continue to seek God's ways and let him lead and guide us into all truth and may we please him in everything we do. Amen.

 

[Journal1 3]

3 hours ago, father said:

 this is what wonderlist is showing 3 years ago

8 Canada

It is an Amercing continent and the total reported cases of rape in this country are 2,516,918. These are only six percent of the total rape cases. It is reported that over one in three women had experienced a sexual assault and that only 6% of sexual assaults were reported to the police. According to Justice Institute of British Columbia, one out of every 17 women is raped, 62% of rape victims were physically injured, 9% were beaten or disfigured.

7. France

Rape was not a crime in France until 1980. Laws reinforcing women’s rights and safety are relatively recent in France. The law making rape a crime dates back only to 1980. Earlier decrees were based on 19th century moral codes. A law on sexual-harassment was approved in 1992 and one on moral harassment was passed in 2002. The last bill to fight violence against women was passed last year. Government studies show there are 75,000 rapes a year in the country. Only about 10 percent of the victims filed complaints. France is at the 7th position with the total reported crime of 3,771,850.

6. Germany

An estimate of 240,000 women and girls has died up till now in Germany because of this crime. Germany is on the number six in the highest rape crime with the figures of 6,507,394 in this year which is really a big figure. German Catholics have allowed the morning-after pills for the victims. The country moving forward in technology is actually moving really backward in humanity.

5. United Kingdom

Many people wish to live or even visit UK as it is one of the most developed countries. But they surely must not be aware that this country is also involved badly in the crime of rape. In January 2013, the Ministry of Justice (MoJ), Office for National Statistics (ONS) and Home Office released its first ever joint Official Statistics bulletin on sexual violence, entitled An Overview of Sexual Offending in England and Wales. According to report: Approximately 85,000 women are raped on average in England and Wales every year. Over 400,000 women are sexually assaulted each year. One in 5 women (aged 16 – 59) has experienced some form of sexual violence since the age of 16.

4. India

India is the place where sexual assault is rapidly increasing. Rape in India is one of India’s most common crimes against women. According to the National Crime Records Bureau 24,923 rape cases were reported across India in 2012, but experts agree that the number of unreported cases of sexual assault brings the total much higher. Out of these, 24,470 were committed by parents/family, relatives, neighbors and other known persons implying that , men known to the victim committed 98 per cent of reported rapes. The latest estimates suggest that a new case of rape is reported every 22 minutes in India.

See also; 10 Curious Scandals of Indian Swamis.

3. Sweden

Sweden has the highest incidence of reported rapes in Europe and one of the highest in the world. One amongst every four women comes out to be the victim of rape in Sweden. By 2010, The Swedish police recorded the highest number of offences – about 63 per 100,000 inhabitants. The country has third-highest rape crime in the world. In 2009 there were 15,700 reported sexual offenses in Sweden, a rise of 8% compared to 2008, of which 5,940 were rape and sexual harassment (including exhibitionism) accounted for 7,590 reports. In April 2009, it was reported that sex crimes had increased by 58% over the previous ten years. According to a 2009 European Union study, Sweden has one of the highest rates of reported rape in Europe.

2. South Africa

The country has one of the highest rates of rape in the world, with some 65,000 rapes and other sexual assaults reported for the year 2012. The incidence of rape has led to the country being referred to as the “rape capital of the world”. One in three of the 4,000 women questioned by the Community of Information, Empowerment and Transparency said they had been raped in the past year. More than 25 per cent of South African men questioned in a survey published by the Medical Research Council (MRC) admitted to rape; of those, nearly half said they had raped more than one person. Three out of four of those who had admitted rape indicated that they had attacked for the first time during their teens. South Africa has amongst the highest incidences of child and baby rape in the world. If the rapist is convicted, his prison time would be around 2 years.

1. United States

The super power of the world is at the first position in the race of rapes. Males are majorly the rapist holding a proportion of 99%. Out of all the victims, 91% are females while 9% are males. The U.S Bureau of Justice Statistics states that 91% of rape victims are female and 9% are male, and nearly 99% of rapists are male. According to the National Violence Against Women Survey, 1 in 6 U.S. women and 1 in 33 U.S. men has experienced an attempted or completed rape in their lifetime. More than a quarter of college-age women report having experienced a rape or rape attempt since age 14. Out of all, only 16% of the total cases are reported. Outdoor rape is not common in USA rather most of the rape cases takes place inside homes.

I heard here in the Middle East rape is never reported or even molestation because the women will be the one shamed, her family shamed and dishonored so they do not report it. Do you know if this is true?

[Qa'im 10,766]

1 minute ago, Journal1 said:

I agree with 1) and 2), of course. However I would like to peer closer into your statement where you reference the woman as being "the object of value/ gem/ barrier/ access its excellence" you even go as far to say "The precious pearl hides inside the oyster's mysterious shell" . Correct me if I am wrong but these references all seem to be referring to women's sexuality. I began to be critical if you are again objectifying woman and devaluing them to a merely "sexual" value. Then as I read further I see you mention that the hijab is a protection against this objectification. And name the things of value being her "feminine energy, motherhood, PERSONALITY (there goes a winner), and physical beauty. Of all these things you mention the only one I see as being one of acknowledging the woman beyond the identity of "sexuality" is personality. A notable way in which women express their personality is through hair style so I see how the Hijab does hide that. 

Since you're a Christian, I don't expect you to don the headscarf, that is fine. Though in many Orthodox churches, women cover their hair, and in every picture of Mary, her hair is covered. Nuns cover their hair. Also, in 1 Corinthians, it says  "For if a woman does not cover her head, she might as well have her hair cut off; but if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should cover her head." Similarly, we see hair coverings in Judaism and other religions. Ever wonder why this was? Hair has always been a symbol of a woman's beauty, just look at how many hair products are out there.

So just one specific correction - I don't see hijab as just the protection of a woman's sexuality. A woman's hijab is both physical and social. On one dimension, yes, it does cover her physical beauty, and for men, visual stimulus is very powerful. But there's more to a woman than her shape - her personality, her voice, her energy, her nurturing ability, all of that is protected by a proper hijab as well. A social hijab means that she is not touching men, not flirting with men, and not having boyfriends. The only man that can go beyond her veils is a man who marries her - ie, a man that has devoted himself to her well-being.

Think of it like this. Have you ever blocked someone on social media? Or have you ever hid your pictures? Or have you ever kept a strict privacy system? Well hijab is not too different from that. You're limiting the access of others.

[Journal1 3]

3 hours ago, father said:

why would women be mislead by wearing hijab?

I thought that maybe they are mislead to believe that wearing a Hijab is what God wants and they think if they wear a hijab they are performing a duty of Allah, but really Allah could care less about if they wear a scarf on their head but he is more concerned with the character of our hearts, and if we love people, if we live in love with him, if we put others before ourselves. There are some people mislead by these traditions. For example I know a person who believes because they go to church they will go to heaven or because they give money to the church they will go to heaven. But yet, the rest of the day they sit in front of the television and ask God blame God for all the problems of the world. People can have it all right, the nicest beard, wear the niqab and the Hijab, go to every religious service, wear the religious clothing, even me, I can go to church, I can give all I possess to the poor, I can speak all these languages, but If I do not have love, the bible says I am nothing. (I Corinthians 13) So I raise the question that: Are these traditions that focus on outward displays of faith misleading people, because really it is about our hearts. Jesus accused the religious leaders of his day saying, "You clean the outside of the cup but inside you are dirty" he also said "It is not what goes into a mans mouth that makes him unclean but what comes out of his mouth that makes him unclean because what comes out is from his heart." This is why as Christians, there is not food we call unclean. But pride, jealousy, etc. these are the things that spring form our heart that we are paying attention not to give way to. 

God is good and perfect, and for someone to blame God for the problems of the world and not lift a finger to help, they are far from God if they think God does not care or that God is the cause of the world's suffering. God loves people and desires our hearts and it grieves God that man kind has done the things we have done. He is so merciful and forgiving. I pray God would lead that person to know his heart. His heart is kind and loving. ( I know I went off on a tangent but the discussion I had with that person was weighing on me)

[Journal1 3]

7 minutes ago, Qa'im said:

Since you're a Christian, I don't expect you to don the headscarf, that is fine. Though in many Orthodox churches, women cover their hair, and in every picture of Mary, her hair is covered. Nuns cover their hair. Also, in 1 Corinthians, it says  "For if a woman does not cover her head, she might as well have her hair cut off; but if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should cover her head." Similarly, we see hair coverings in Judaism and other religions. Ever wonder why this was? Hair has always been a symbol of a woman's beauty, just look at how many hair products are out there.

So just one specific correction - I don't see hijab as just the protection of a woman's sexuality. A woman's hijab is both physical and social. On one dimension, yes, it does cover her physical beauty, and for men, visual stimulus is very powerful. But there's more to a woman than her shape - her personality, her voice, her energy, her nurturing ability, all of that is protected by a proper hijab as well. A social hijab means that she is not touching men, not flirting with men, and not having boyfriends. The only man that can go beyond her veils is a man who marries her - ie, a man that has devoted himself to her well-being.

Think of it like this. Have you ever blocked someone on social media? Or have you ever hid your pictures? Or have you ever kept a strict privacy system? Well hijab is not too different from that. You're limiting the access of others.

Mary was Middle Eastern Jewish so I imagine she is wearing a scarf maybe because the head scarf is a very middle eastern tradition(from my perspective). Some Orthodox Christians (not the ones in Egypt I spent time with, the only ones I seen were older Russian ladies) do wear head scarves (God bless them) and give them power. But giving these examples does not at all give a conclusive picture that head scarves are compulsorily for Christians. I know this scripture and it refers to woman and gives the command concerning prayer. Many women when they pray put a scarf over their head. 

 

The main difference between Christianity and Islam in this regard is that Islam seems to focus on the outer methods and system to create a more perfect society. (This is probably why we see Islam being not only a religious construct, but HIGHLY political construct, because it lays these standards for society as a whole.)

Christianity on the other hand seems to focus more on the heart and what is unseen, and the individual choice in their relationship to God. 

Just having this conversation is tiring because here we are talking about the meaning and power of a cloth. I look forward to the day where all this talk will be behind us and we will fully know God, even as we are fully known. God bless you in your pursuit of righteousness and truth.

And yes I have limited access of others in my life, but I also have given my life to so many others. Not different from what you are doing here, sharing your time, insight, and wisdom to others on this online tool. Is not this what God calls us to do as believers? To give our lives to others for his sake, that others might know him or believe in him. So as I give my life to God, I find that he uses it for the sake of others, to bring them to him, which he is the greatest blessing to have in one's life. (This of course is a righteous access, not a deviant one, as "access" was slightly connotated with deviance)

[Haydar Husayn 9,677]

Women in Jesus' society covered their hair, so there would be no reason for him to explicitly mention it. Rather, if it was something women shouldn't be doing, then you would expect him to tell them to take their head coverings off. However, he did say such things as:

7 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’[e] 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

Wearing hijab makes it more difficult for men to look at women lustfully. This doesn't absolve men from their duty to avoid staring at women, but it's part of the system that leads to a modest society. Traditionally, women in Christian countries usually covered their hair in public, and it's only as society became more secular that this practice ceased, and many Churches no longer emphasised it (although many still require women to cover their hair in church).

With regards to the way some men in Middle Eastern countries stare at women who don't wear hijab, then consider the fact that it's due to the context. Most men in the West wouldn't (blatantly) stare at a women wearing a bikini if she was on a beach, but a women would certainly get stares if she turned up to work at her office in a bikini. This is because we understand that there are appropriate ways of dressing depending on the context we find ourselves in. In the much of the Middle East, it is assumed that in public women should have their hair covered, and hence any women that doesn't will draw attention to herself. The fact that this may not happen in the West is simply a reflection of the different cultural mores.

[Journal1 3]

7 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

Women in Jesus' society covered their hair, so there would be no reason for him to explicitly mention it. Rather, if it was something women shouldn't be doing, then you would expect him to tell them to take their head coverings off. However, he did say such things as:

7 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’[e] 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

Wearing hijab makes it more difficult for men to look at women lustfully. This doesn't absolve men from their duty to avoid staring at women, but it's part of the system that leads to a modest society. Traditionally, women in Christian countries usually covered their hair in public, and it's only as society became more secular that this practice ceased, and many Churches no longer emphasised it (although many still require women to cover their hair in church).

With regards to the way some men in Middle Eastern countries stare at women who don't wear hijab, then consider the fact that it's due to the context. Most men in the West wouldn't (blatantly) stare at a women wearing a bikini if she was on a beach, but a women would certainly get stares if she turned up to work at her office in a bikini. This is because we understand that there are appropriate ways of dressing depending on the context we find ourselves in. In the much of the Middle East, it is assumed that in public women should have their hair covered, and hence any women that doesn't will draw attention to herself. The fact that this may not happen in the West is simply a reflection of the different cultural mores.

Honestly, very good response. It gives me a greater understanding. This is so true what Jesus said. You know, I hope this is perceived on your end with the purest intentions of how I intend it, but you know what keeps me from wearing a hijab?

This: I love God so much, I believe he is the greatest and most wonderful, and the one worth living for, dying for, putting my desires last for. Like I truly believe in God and want people to see him when they see me and ultimately live a life that brings people to him. I sincerely believe in Jesus, his life, death, and resurrection. I believe that his death on the cross and blood he shed was the for my sins and the sins of the world. Like, I believe THE BIBLE. So what keeps me from wearing the Hijab is that it is exclusively Muslim. I feel by wearing it I would promoting Islam, not Jesus. And I would never want to promote another thing other than the one who saved me, whom I love. 

I hope this came out in the way I meant it. The issue now in the current times is that the head scarf now seems to be something copy righted and trademarked by the religion of Islam. It would be wrong of me to wear one as a Christian. It is exclusively Islamic. I feel a strong conviction about this and would never want to promote something that teaches against the truth of who I believe Jesus to be. As beautiful as I see modesty to be, the hijab is no longer just a symbol of modesty but the symbol of Islam. Does this makes sense?

 

[Haydar Husayn 9,677]

6 minutes ago, Journal1 said:

Honestly, very good response. It gives me a greater understanding. This is so true what Jesus said. You know, I hope this is perceived on your end with the purest intentions of how I intend it, but you know what keeps me from wearing a hijab?

This: I love God so much, I believe he is the greatest and most wonderful, and the one worth living for, dying for, putting my desires last for. Like I truly believe in God and want people to see him when they see me and ultimately live a life that brings people to him. I sincerely believe in Jesus, his life, death, and resurrection. I believe that his death on the cross and blood he shed was the for my sins and the sins of the world. Like, I believe THE BIBLE. So what keeps me from wearing the Hijab is that it is exclusively Muslim. I feel by wearing it I would promoting Islam, not Jesus. And I would never want to promote another thing other than the one who saved me, whom I love. 

I hope this came out in the way I meant it. The issue now in the current times is that the head scarf now seems to be something copy righted and trademarked by the religion of Islam. It would be wrong of me to wear one as a Christian. It is exclusively Islamic. I feel a strong conviction about this and would never want to promote something that teaches against the truth of who I believe Jesus to be. As beautiful as I see modesty to be, the hijab is no longer just a symbol of modesty but the symbol of Islam. Does this makes sense?

 

Yes, I perfectly understand that you wouldn't want to be seen to be imitating Muslims. In Islam, we also have a principle of not imitating unbelievers. This is a very important principle in the Old Testament, and one of the reasons for some of the laws given the Israelites that now seem so strange to us. However, I don't think this principle should override doing what you believe God wants from you. So it really depends on you, and how you see things. After all, plenty of Christians do cover their hair in a variety of ways, which don't necessarily resemble the ways in which Muslims cover their hair.

[sidnaq 1,047]

14 hours ago, Journal1 said:

Jesus does not require women to wear a hijab but requires our hearts to be pure, modest, and full of him. Why in Islam women wear hijab and think that they are close to God when in fact it does mean anything because I know women who wear hijab and tons of makeup and flirt with men. Is Islam misleading women by requiring them to wear hijab? or is this rule just for men to better control themselves. I do not understand. And if it is for men why should I be responsible for another person's lust or desires? As a woman in Middle East country I noticed because I do not wear Hijab, muslim men think they have more "right" to look at me? They stare, in Western countries men are more respectful of women. Middle Eastern men seem to think women are for them and if they do not wear hijab they are trying to show off. Is this the effect of Islam on society? I feel the Western society is better because I am not stared at like here in Middle East.

the truth is sister, the men need to lower their gaze, if theyre not doing that, well they arent following the teachings of islam.

[father 85]

6 hours ago, Journal1 said:

I thought that maybe they are mislead to believe that wearing a Hijab is what God wants and they think if they wear a hijab they are performing a duty of Allah, but really Allah could care less about if they wear a scarf on their head but he is more concerned with the character of our hearts, and if we love people, if we live in love with him, if we put others before ourselves. There are some people mislead by these traditions. For example I know a person who believes because they go to church they will go to heaven or because they give money to the church they will go to heaven. But yet, the rest of the day they sit in front of the television and ask God blame God for all the problems of the world. People can have it all right, the nicest beard, wear the niqab and the Hijab, go to every religious service, wear the religious clothing, even me, I can go to church, I can give all I possess to the poor, I can speak all these languages, but If I do not have love, the bible says I am nothing. (I Corinthians 13) So I raise the question that: Are these traditions that focus on outward displays of faith misleading people, because really it is about our hearts. Jesus accused the religious leaders of his day saying, "You clean the outside of the cup but inside you are dirty" he also said "It is not what goes into a mans mouth that makes him unclean but what comes out of his mouth that makes him unclean because what comes out is from his heart." This is why as Christians, there is not food we call unclean. But pride, jealousy, etc. these are the things that spring form our heart that we are paying attention not to give way to. 

God is good and perfect, and for someone to blame God for the problems of the world and not lift a finger to help, they are far from God if they think God does not care or that God is the cause of the world's suffering. God loves people and desires our hearts and it grieves God that man kind has done the things we have done. He is so merciful and forgiving. I pray God would lead that person to know his heart. His heart is kind and loving. ( I know I went off on a tangent but the discussion I had with that person was weighing on me)

it compels men to focus on the real personality of the woman and de-emphasizes her physical beauty. It puts the woman in control of strangers’ reaction to her.so it is better to wear it than not wearing it.for eg if you buy meat and donot cover it birds, dogs,cats will see and attack on it but when we cover, it it is better.

[Journal1 3]

6 hours ago, father said:

it compels men to focus on the real personality of the woman and de-emphasizes her physical beauty. It puts the woman in control of strangers’ reaction to her.so it is better to wear it than not wearing it.for eg if you buy meat and donot cover it birds, dogs,cats will see and attack on it but when we cover, it it is better.

But I always go back to the question, why are men excused for this irrational and animalistic behavior. Men say, "O it is natural for us to want to lust after women, it is our nature how of made us." They are blaming God for their sin and justifying themselves from the responsibility.

Men - I do not view you as a I view an animal who would attack the meat left out I respect you as a superb creation of God with the self-control and discipline capabilities to navigate in the world in a respectful manner. Maybe if you would see yourself in this way, society would be different.

 

[father 85]

1 hour ago, Journal1 said:

Men - I do not view you as a I view an animal who would attack the meat left out I respect you as a superb creation of God with the self-control and discipline capabilities to navigate in the world in a respectful manner. Maybe if you would see yourself in this way, society would be different.

lol that was just an exapmle it doesnot mean men are like animals and they donot have self control and discipline, i know many who have great self control and discipline

Edited October 23, 2017 by father

[father 85]

1 hour ago, Journal1 said:

Men say, "O it is natural for us to want to lust after women, it is our nature how of made us." They are blaming God for their sin and justifying themselves from the responsibility.

if some some does that it is very wrong our imams as order us that if a man doesnot keep his stomach and and genitals away from haram(forbidden) he is not their follower

[father 85]

1 hour ago, Journal1 said:

But I always go back to the question, why are men excused for this irrational and animalistic behavior.

“If the eyes of a female cry over a man that oppressed her, angels will curse him with every step he walks”— Imam Ali

[andres 473]

On 2017-10-22 at 11:32 AM, Journal1 said:

Jesus does not require women to wear a hijab but requires our hearts to be pure, modest, and full of him. Why in Islam women wear hijab and think that they are close to God when in fact it does mean anything because I know women who wear hijab and tons of makeup and flirt with men. Is Islam misleading women by requiring them to wear hijab? or is this rule just for men to better control themselves. I do not understand. And if it is for men why should I be responsible for another person's lust or desires? As a woman in Middle East country I noticed because I do not wear Hijab, muslim men think they have more "right" to look at me? They stare, in Western countries men are more respectful of women. Middle Eastern men seem to think women are for them and if they do not wear hijab they are trying to show off. Is this the effect of Islam on society? I feel the Western society is better because I am not stared at like here in Middle East.

Of course men not used to see women will stare. Now I suppose Arabs have dressed the way they do even before Islam. Sun is dangerous in the desert. Not like here in Scandinavia where winter is dark and the Sun often covered by clouds. Being covered here is not very healthy, we need the Sunrays. In the rainforest people almost do not dress at all. It is warm and humid. Are men staring at the almost naked women there. Dont think so, they are used to it. On Swedish beaches girls lie topless in summertime. Why stare, it is normal. A refugee from Syria would probably stare a week or so. Or at least until he has gotten used to it.

[Son of Placid 1,370]

Interesting timing on this subject. I just got back from a week on a Mexican island. 

First time in a dozen years that I've seen a lady in hijab. White hijab, black from there down. Husband in mid thigh shorts and a T. Husband took off the T to go in the waist high water, she went in full garb. I'm guessing they didn't know the waves oppose the current because she was down in no time and struggled back to shore while he somewhat helped her, but was tremendously distracted. There were probably 50 bikinis in the water and one on a paddle board parading around. I heard words of disgust around me that did not shed any good light on Islam. My thoughts were, what a horrific situation to be in. He was totally out of his element, and her stuck in such a sad situation. 

The first time I saw them walking the bridge my thoughts were they were in the wrong place, I almost wanted to tell them. Society says I'm not allowed to think that way, nor "discriminate" but honestly... I never got to meet them, and never saw them after the indecent in the water, although I don't spend a lot of time at the resort, it's the place I sleep between fishing trips.

There's no law that says you have to wear a bikini. There are many styles of modest swimwear that would have allowed her to enjoy the water without being noticed. The locals wear them. The locals are quite modest and the older women are often wearing scarfs over their hair. The place is a unique blend of Roman Catholicism and Mayan culture.  

I wonder, if this lady did wear "modest swimwear" what a picture of her in her home town would do to her. 

 

[Son of Placid 1,370]

On 10/22/2017 at 3:46 PM, Journal1 said:

It is an Amercing continent and the total reported cases of rape in this country are 2,516,918. These are only six percent of the total rape cases. It is reported that over one in three women had experienced a sexual assault and that only 6% of sexual assaults were reported to the police. According to Justice Institute of British Columbia, one out of every 17 women is raped, 62% of rape victims were physically injured, 9% were beaten or disfigured.

Think I'd be looking for a better source. 

If 2.5 mil are only 6%, then some 42 million people have been raped, this in 2003, or since the beginning of time until 2003? This suggests that every Canadian has been raped and injured, and 1/3 of those raped twice, almost 4 million disfigured. If rape has all to do with dress code, then it must have been the summer of 2003 because hijab has nothing on parkas. Someone would have made a movie. 

Edited November 17, 2017 by Son of Placid
fat fingers

[ShiaMan14 6,685]

On 10/22/2017 at 4:32 AM, Journal1 said:

Jesus does not require women to wear a hijab but requires our hearts to be pure, modest, and full of him. Why in Islam women wear hijab and think that they are close to God when in fact it does mean anything because I know women who wear hijab and tons of makeup and flirt with men. Is Islam misleading women by requiring them to wear hijab? or is this rule just for men to better control themselves. I do not understand. And if it is for men why should I be responsible for another person's lust or desires? As a woman in Middle East country I noticed because I do not wear Hijab, muslim men think they have more "right" to look at me? They stare, in Western countries men are more respectful of women. Middle Eastern men seem to think women are for them and if they do not wear hijab they are trying to show off. Is this the effect of Islam on society? I feel the Western society is better because I am not stared at like here in Middle East.

Greetings brother,

Quite contrary to what you are stating above, Jesus does require women to cover their heads:

1 Corinthians 11New International Version (NIV)

11 ¹ Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ.

On Covering the Head in Worship

² I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the traditions just as I passed them on to you. ³ But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man,^[a] and the head of Christ is God. ⁴ Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. ⁵ But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is the same as having her head shaved. ⁶ For if a woman does not cover her head, she might as well have her hair cut off; but if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should cover her head.

⁷ A man ought not to cover his head,^[b] since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. ⁸ For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; ⁹ neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. ¹⁰ It is for this reason that a woman ought to have authority over her own^[c] head, because of the angels. ¹¹ Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. ¹² For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God.

¹³ Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? ¹⁴ Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, ¹⁵ but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering. ¹⁶ If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice—nor do the churches of God.

So the real question is not why Muslim women cover their heads following biblical tradition but the real question is why do Christians not follow their own Bible?

The rest of the discussion about being a better person, etc. is irrelevant to the discussion.

[hasanhh 7,869]

@shiaman14 is Biblically correct in several translations.

A question for @Journal1: lf women's heads are not required to be covered, then why are Virgin Mary paintings, pictures and portrayals have Mary as a hijabi?

[ShiaMan14 6,685]

4 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

@shiaman14 is Biblically correct in several translations.

The 2 most used versions are (or used to be NIV and King James):

1 Corinthians 11King James Version (KJV)

11 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

² Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.

³ But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

⁴ Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.

⁵ But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

⁶ For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

⁷ For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

⁸ For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man.

⁹ Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

¹⁰ For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.

¹¹ Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.

¹² For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.

¹³ Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?

¹⁴ Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?

¹⁵ But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

¹⁶ But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

[hasanhh 7,869]

9 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

The 2 most used versions are (or used to be NIV and King James...

l also like my textbook edition of the Douay and the Young's Literal which is online.

Edited November 17, 2017 by hasanhh