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In the Name of God بسم الله
just a muslim

question again

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54 minutes ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

Ah ok, shukran.

Read this 34:47-53, what are your thoughts?

I'll start from 34:45 then to 53  if that's okay

Those that were before them also cried lies, yet they reached not a tenth of what We gave them; they cried lies to My Messengers, and how was My horror!

45--Say (Muhammad): 'I give you but one admonition, that you stand unto God, two by two and one by one, and then reflect: no madness is in your comrade. He is naught but a warner unto you, before a terrible chastisement.'

Say: 'I have asked no wage of you; that shall be yours. My wage falls only upon God; and He is witness over everything.'

Say: 'My Lord hurls the truth -- the Knower of the Unseen.'

Say. 'Truth has come; falsehood originates not, nor brings again.'

Say: 'If I go astray, I go astray only to my own loss; if I am guided, it is by what my Lord reveals to me. He is All-hearing, Ever-nigh.'

Ah, if thou couldst see when they are terrified, and there is no escape, and they are seized from a place near at hand,

and they say, 'We believe in it'; but how can they reach from a place far away,

53--seeing they disbelieved in it before, guessing at the Unseen from a place far away?

At first glance I see Allah is addressing Muhammad SAW.  It also appears Allah is describing the Unseen of when it was too late for the disbelievers, claiming they believe in the message, but it was too late for their words to matter/reach.   The beginning part of these passages referred to prior people whom God's message was being delivered to, they barely received 1/10th of the message and doubted/accused the messengers of the past of revealing lies.  In response, God commands Muhammad to say,  that Muhammad isn't asking personal wage, for Allah is who rewards, who knows the truth of the Unseen, and that he is Truth, where no falsehoods originate nor can be brought in place of truth.  And then for Muhammad to tell them if he's gone astray, it is because of his own personal loss, but if he is guided, it is because of what Allah reveals.

Edited by wmehar2
grammar

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3 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

This is in reply to verse 43. It does not mean that the Holy Prophet ever erred, because Quran expressively says in Najm: 2 to 4: "Errs not your companion, nor is he led astray, nor he speaks of (his own) desire. It is naught but a revelation revealed (unto him)." It means the prophet was infallible. In several other places the Quran asserts that the Holy Prophet only followed the divine revelation under every circumstance. 

Surah Al-Anaam, Verse 161:

قُلْ إِنَّنِي هَدَانِي رَبِّي إِلَىٰ صِرَاطٍ مُّسْتَقِيمٍ دِينًا قِيَمًا مِّلَّةَ إِبْرَاهِيمَ حَنِيفًا وَمَا كَانَ مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ

Say: Surely, (as for) me, my Lord has guided me to the right path; (to) a most right religion, the faith of Ibrahim the upright one, and he was not of the polytheists.

(English - Shakir)

Surah Al-Anaam, Verse 162:

قُلْ إِنَّ صَلَاتِي وَنُسُكِي وَمَحْيَايَ وَمَمَاتِي لِلَّهِ رَبِّ الْعَالَمِينَ

Say. Surely my prayer and my sacrifice and my life and my death are (all) for Allah, the Lord of the worlds;

(English - Shakir)

His every action/deed was for lillahe Rabbul Aalameen. 

I'm not sure if you see the circle.  If the Messenger does not speak from his own desire,  then what does it matter if he is personally infallible or not, if he is not in control or using his desire?  If Allah took control of some other person's voice and limbs, then they become too infallible in whatever Allah does through them.  Allah guided Muhammad to right path, as in 161 of Anaam,  You're supporting my and @Gaius I. Caesar point that Muhammad's character and intentions can be argued as infallible in term of virtue and what he wished.  Everything Muhammad did intentionally was for Allah's sake.

But it doesn't extend to execution of his daily life, activities outside of delivering the message. 

9:43

God pardon thee (Muhammad)! Why gavest thou them leave, till it was clear to thee which of them spoke the truth, and thou knewest the liars?

Did Muhammad err before Quran?  Ignoring  Basharun mithlukum and its meaning discussion,  below it says Muhammad had to be revealed the fact that there was no God but One God, was Muhammad in error before revelation?  Or is he blameless for his mistaken belief because he was unknowing of the Oneness of Allah?  Intention wise Muhammad is still infallible arguably in this case, but as a mistake prone human, he is not infallible.

18:110

Say: 'I am only a mortal the like of you; it is revealed to me that your God is One God. So let him, who hopes for the encounter with his Lord, work righteousness, and not associate with his Lord's service anyone.

[Say], "Then is it other than Allah I should seek as judge while it is He who has revealed to you the Book explained in detail?" And those to whom We [previously] gave the Scripture know that it is sent down from your Lord in truth, so never be among the doubters. 6:114

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24 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

was Muhammad in error before revelation?  Or is he blameless for his mistaken belief because he was unknowing of the Oneness of Allah? 

No, he may have had pagan relatives but there is no proof that he was ever a pagan or idol worshipper long before the revelation of the Quran. I don't know where you get this idea from.

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15 minutes ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

No, he may have had pagan relatives but there is no proof that he was ever a pagan or idol worshipper long before the revelation of the Quran. I don't know where you get this idea from.

I'm not insinuating whether he was a polytheist or not, I'm driving the point that it was not until it was revealed to Muhammad that god is one, that he knew God was one.

To Muhammad he may have suspected but never known or just never cared to believe in idols, whatever the truth may be,  it stands in Quran Allah revealed to Muhammad and messengers before him that He is one.

That Allah guided Muhammad, and Muhammad on his own was lacking and insubstantial. 

Quran 93:6-8

Did He not find you an orphan and give you shelter?

And find you lost (that is, unrecognized by men) and guide (them to you)?

And find you in want and make you to be free from want?

 

and:

 

Quran 10:35-36

Say: Is there any of your associates who guides to the truth? Say: Allah guides to the truth. Is He then Who guides to the truth more worthy to be followed, or he who himself does not go aright unless he is guided? What then is the matter with you; how do you judge?

Muhammad constitutes the latter,  he who himself is not aright until he is guided.  So follow Allah, by following the messenger/obeying the message only <-

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2 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

But it doesn't extend to execution of his daily life, activities outside of delivering the message

9:43

God pardon thee (Muhammad)! Why gavest thou them leave, till it was clear to thee which of them spoke the truth, and thou knewest the liars?

Did Muhammad err before Quran?  Ignoring  Basharun mithlukum and its meaning discussion,  below it says Muhammad had to be revealed the fact that there was no God but One God, was Muhammad in error before revelation?  Or is he blameless for his mistaken belief because he was unknowing of the Oneness of Allah?  Intention wise Muhammad is still infallible arguably in this case, but as a mistake prone human, he is not infallible.

18:110

Say: 'I am only a mortal the like of you; it is revealed to me that your God is One God. So let him, who hopes for the encounter with his Lord, work righteousness, and not associate with his Lord's service anyone.

[Say], "Then is it other than Allah I should seek as judge while it is He who has revealed to you the Book explained in detail?" And those to whom We [previously] gave the Scripture know that it is sent down from your Lord in truth, so never be among the doubters. 6:114

Do you think he remain absent from the sight of Allah in the matters related to his daily life or in activities outside of delivering the

message?

فَاسْتَقِمْ كَمَا أُمِرْتَ وَمَن تَابَ مَعَكَ وَلاَ تَطْغَوْاْ إِنَّهُ بِمَا تَعْمَلُونَ بَصِيرٌ
11:112 Continue then in the right way as you are commanded, as also he who has turned (to Allah) with you, and be not inordinate (O men!), surely He sees what you do.

As for 9:43, Like verse 2 of Fat-h, the companions are addressed here through the Holy Prophet. The manner, mode and trend of expression is the same as in verse 1 of Tahrim or verse 68 of Anfal. The Holy Prophet had the option of giving permission (Nur: 62), and there was no prohibitory order prior to his action. He did not want to expose the hypocrites on his own, unless Allah condemns them as He does here and in other places. So what you are doing is trying your best to produce contradictions in the verses of Quran.

Quote: "but as a mistake prone human, he is not infallible"

(15:39-42)


قَالَ رَبِّ بِمَا أَغْوَيْتَنِي لَأُزَيِّنَنَّ لَهُمْ فِي الْأَرْضِ وَلَأُغْوِيَنَّهُمْ أَجْمَعِينَ
إِلَّا عِبَادَكَ مِنْهُمُ الْمُخْلَصِينَ
قَالَ هَٰذَا صِرَاطٌ عَلَيَّ مُسْتَقِيمٌ
إِنَّ عِبَادِي لَيْسَ لَكَ عَلَيْهِمْ سُلْطَانٌ إِلَّا مَنِ اتَّبَعَكَ مِنَ الْغَاوِينَ


The Holy Prophet and his Ahl ul Bayt are the mukhlisin. Though they were sent in this world in the progeny of Adam, they are altogether a separate class of beings created of light and endowed with special divine attributes, therefore the other children of Adam, whom he deceives without effort, cannot be compared to them. From cradle to grave the mukhlisin remained free from every kind of sin, pollution or shortcomings. They were the perfect models of godliness who always manifested divine attributes for the guidance of mankind in every age (see an-amta alayhim in al Fatihah: 7). Being the thoroughly purified souls, free from any evil influence, they were beyond the reach of devilish allurements. When a soul attains such excellence Allah takes it under His mercy and grace which protect it under all circumstances. 

The word "Ghaveen" in 15:42 can explain you the extension of the word "Ghava" mentioned in 53:2,

مَا ضَلَّ صَاحِبُكُمْ وَمَا غَوَى


Now 6:114:

فَلَا تَكُونَنَّ مِنَ الْمُمْتَرِينَ

Do you think Prophet (pbuh) ever doubted on Allah or on any of His command? Fact is that the people are warned here not to be among those who doubt. And the question mentioned in the start of the verse (Shall I then seek a judge other than Allah?) explains that it is the people who were addressed not the Prophet.
 

 

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2 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

To Muhammad he may have suspected but never known or just never cared to believe in idols, whatever the truth may be,  it stands in Quran Allah revealed to Muhammad and messengers before him that He is one.

That Allah guided Muhammad, and Muhammad on his own was lacking and insubstantial. 

That I agree with you and I know that you are not implying that he was a pagan or idol worshipper. However, the Shia perspective and mine is that he was born to monotheists (hanifs) and he was considered "unusual" and " different " from a young age by those who knew or met him.

On his own, he was not what Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى intended for him to be before He revealed the Quran to Muhammad (saws) but he was already a monotheist. His role was preordained from the beginning, long before the revelation...

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1 hour ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

That I agree with you and I know that you are not implying that he was a pagan or idol worshipper. However, the Shia perspective and mine is that he was born to monotheists (hanifs) and he was considered "unusual" and " different " from a young age by those who knew or met him.

On his own, he was not what Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى intended for him to be before He revealed the Quran to Muhammad (saws) but he was already a monotheist. His role was preordained from the beginning, long before the revelation...

Muhammad was Muhammad before the Quran and after the Quran. Peace and blessings be upon him and his beloved and blessed AhlulBayt. 

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وَأَوْحَيْنَا إِلَىٰ أُمِّ مُوسَىٰ أَنْ أَرْضِعِيهِ ۖ فَإِذَا خِفْتِ عَلَيْهِ فَأَلْقِيهِ فِي الْيَمِّ وَلَا تَخَافِي وَلَا تَحْزَنِي ۖ إِنَّا رَادُّوهُ إِلَيْكِ وَجَاعِلُوهُ مِنَ الْمُرْسَلِينَ {7}

[Pickthal 28:7] And We inspired the mother of Moses, saying: Suckle him and, when thou fearest for him, then cast him into the river and fear not nor grieve. Lo! We shall bring him back unto thee and shall make him (one) of Our messengers.

*****

إِذْ قَالَ يُوسُفُ لِأَبِيهِ يَا أَبَتِ إِنِّي رَأَيْتُ أَحَدَ عَشَرَ كَوْكَبًا وَالشَّمْسَ وَالْقَمَرَ رَأَيْتُهُمْ لِي سَاجِدِينَ 4}

[Pickthal 12:4] When Joseph said unto his father: O my father! Lo! I saw in a dream eleven planets and the sun and the moon, I saw them prostrating themselves unto me.

*****

يَا زَكَرِيَّا إِنَّا نُبَشِّرُكَ بِغُلَامٍ اسْمُهُ يَحْيَىٰ لَمْ نَجْعَلْ لَهُ مِنْ قَبْلُ سَمِيًّا {7}

[Pickthal 19:7] (It was said unto him): O Zachariah! Lo! We bring thee tidings of a son whose name is John; we have given the same name to none before (him).


 

يَا يَحْيَىٰ خُذِ الْكِتَابَ بِقُوَّةٍ ۖ وَآتَيْنَاهُ الْحُكْمَ صَبِيًّا {12}

[Pickthal 19:12] (And it was said unto his son): O John! Hold fast the Scripture. And we gave him wisdom when a child,

وَحَنَانًا مِنْ لَدُنَّا وَزَكَاةً ۖ وَكَانَ تَقِيًّا {13}

[Pickthal 19:13] And compassion from Our presence, and purity; and he was devout,

وَبَرًّا بِوَالِدَيْهِ وَلَمْ يَكُنْ جَبَّارًا عَصِيًّا {14}

[Pickthal 19:14] And dutiful toward his parents. And he was not arrogant, rebellious.

وَسَلَامٌ عَلَيْهِ يَوْمَ وُلِدَ وَيَوْمَ يَمُوتُ وَيَوْمَ يُبْعَثُ حَيًّا {15}

[Pickthal 19:15] Peace on him the day he was born, and the day he dieth and the day he shall be raised alive!

 

*****

قَالَ إِنَّمَا أَنَا رَسُولُ رَبِّكِ لِأَهَبَ لَكِ غُلَامًا زَكِيًّا {19}

[Pickthal 19:19] He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.

 

فَأَشَارَتْ إِلَيْهِ ۖ قَالُوا كَيْفَ نُكَلِّمُ مَنْ كَانَ فِي الْمَهْدِ صَبِيًّا {29}

[Pickthal 19:29] Then she pointed to him. They said: How can we talk to one who is in the cradle, a young boy?

قَالَ إِنِّي عَبْدُ اللَّهِ آتَانِيَ الْكِتَابَ وَجَعَلَنِي نَبِيًّا {30}

[Pickthal 19:30] He spake: Lo! I am the slave of Allah. He hath given me the Scripture and hath appointed me a Prophet,

وَجَعَلَنِي مُبَارَكًا أَيْنَ مَا كُنْتُ وَأَوْصَانِي بِالصَّلَاةِ وَالزَّكَاةِ مَا دُمْتُ حَيًّا {31}

[Pickthal 19:31] And hath made me blessed wheresoever I may be, and hath enjoined upon me prayer and almsgiving so long as I remain alive,

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9 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

Do you think he remain absent from the sight of Allah in the matters related to his daily life or in activities outside of delivering the

message?

فَاسْتَقِمْ كَمَا أُمِرْتَ وَمَن تَابَ مَعَكَ وَلاَ تَطْغَوْاْ إِنَّهُ بِمَا تَعْمَلُونَ بَصِيرٌ
11:112 Continue then in the right way as you are commanded, as also he who has turned (to Allah) with you, and be not inordinate (O men!), surely He sees what you do.

As for 9:43, Like verse 2 of Fat-h, the companions are addressed here through the Holy Prophet. The manner, mode and trend of expression is the same as in verse 1 of Tahrim or verse 68 of Anfal. The Holy Prophet had the option of giving permission (Nur: 62), and there was no prohibitory order prior to his action. He did not want to expose the hypocrites on his own, unless Allah condemns them as He does here and in other places. So what you are doing is trying your best to produce contradictions in the verses of Quran.

Quote: "but as a mistake prone human, he is not infallible"

(15:39-42)


قَالَ رَبِّ بِمَا أَغْوَيْتَنِي لَأُزَيِّنَنَّ لَهُمْ فِي الْأَرْضِ وَلَأُغْوِيَنَّهُمْ أَجْمَعِينَ
إِلَّا عِبَادَكَ مِنْهُمُ الْمُخْلَصِينَ
قَالَ هَٰذَا صِرَاطٌ عَلَيَّ مُسْتَقِيمٌ
إِنَّ عِبَادِي لَيْسَ لَكَ عَلَيْهِمْ سُلْطَانٌ إِلَّا مَنِ اتَّبَعَكَ مِنَ الْغَاوِينَ


The Holy Prophet and his Ahl ul Bayt are the mukhlisin. Though they were sent in this world in the progeny of Adam, they are altogether a separate class of beings created of light and endowed with special divine attributes, therefore the other children of Adam, whom he deceives without effort, cannot be compared to them. From cradle to grave the mukhlisin remained free from every kind of sin, pollution or shortcomings. They were the perfect models of godliness who always manifested divine attributes for the guidance of mankind in every age (see an-amta alayhim in al Fatihah: 7). Being the thoroughly purified souls, free from any evil influence, they were beyond the reach of devilish allurements. When a soul attains such excellence Allah takes it under His mercy and grace which protect it under all circumstances. 

The word "Ghaveen" in 15:42 can explain you the extension of the word "Ghava" mentioned in 53:2,

مَا ضَلَّ صَاحِبُكُمْ وَمَا غَوَى


Now 6:114:

فَلَا تَكُونَنَّ مِنَ الْمُمْتَرِينَ

Do you think Prophet (pbuh) ever doubted on Allah or on any of His command? Fact is that the people are warned here not to be among those who doubt. And the question mentioned in the start of the verse (Shall I then seek a judge other than Allah?) explains that it is the people who were addressed not the Prophet.
 

 

From how I read these verses and your argument, I disagree.

I do not say they are absent in sight of Allah.  I say Muhammad is a person like you and me, according to Quran, albeit a special person, but a person.

Also, when Allah addresses or refers to his servants, he's referring to all muslims in submission and obedience to him.  Not just messengers, prophets, and Ahlul Bayt, AS on them all. 

25:63

And the servants of the Most Merciful are those who walk upon the earth easily, and when the ignorant address them [harshly], they say [words of] peace

In response to your  15:39-42,  mistakes prone does not mean sin/shaytaan prone necessarily.   At least from my perspective. 

In regards to revealing Quran and reciting the message of Allah, there is no fallibilty on Muhammad, I also cant speak to Muhammad as I only know what Quran tells me of him.

Quran tells us Isa ibn Mariam AS  is a servant and Muhammad SAW is a servant.

39:53

Say, "O My servants who have transgressed against themselves [by sinning], do not despair of the mercy of Allah . Indeed, Allah forgives all sins. Indeed, it is He who is the Forgiving, the Merciful."

Muhammad and Isa ibn Mariam, and Ahlul Bayt, are included in the above and muslims who submit to Allah.

9:104

Do they not know that it is Allah who accepts repentance from His servants and receives charities and that it is Allah who is the Accepting of repentance, the Merciful?

Add 39:10 as well.

I don't see mukhlisin argument for the Prophet Muhammad and his Ahlul Bayt.

Allah commands Muhammad to tell us in Quran that he is not special among any other messengers, including Adam AS,  This idea of mukhlisin you're  introducing  brings contradiction , because yes they are comparable beings according to quran.

46:9

Say: 'I am not an innovation among the Messengers, and I know not what shall be done with me or with you. I only follow what is revealed to me; I am only a clear warner.'

This verse deconstructs your argument.

 

It seems the idea of mukhlisin and these infallible beings of light being made before Adam AS and all that, are being forced/brought into the religion that just doesn't fit in Quran. 

human beings include muhammad, angels are light.

Verily We created man from a product of wet earth; then placed him as a drop (of seed) in a safe lodging; then We fashioned the drop into a clot, then We fashioned the clot into a little lump, then We fashioned the little lump into bones, then clothed the bones with flesh, and then produced it another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of Creators!” [23:12-14]

18:110 and other verses Allah tells Muhammad to tell us he is a man. A man.

Men are made the same as every other man.

Muhammad and Ahlul Bayt are not light, this is clear contradiction.

QED.

 

Edited by wmehar2

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"The Infallibility of the Last Prophet (The Prophet of Islam)"

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235049289-imams-and-infallibility/?page=17&tab=comments#comment-3059985

*****

قَالَ مَا مَنَعَكَ أَلَّا تَسْجُدَ إِذْ أَمَرْتُكَ ۖ قَالَ أَنَا خَيْرٌ مِنْهُ خَلَقْتَنِي مِنْ نَارٍ وَخَلَقْتَهُ مِنْ طِينٍ {12}

[Pickthal 7:12] He said: What hindered thee that thou didst not fall prostrate when I bade thee? (Iblis) said: I am better than him. Thou createdst me of fire while him Thou didst create of mud.

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19 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

 

Muhammad and Ahlul Bayt are not light, this is clear contradiction.

اللَّهُ نُورُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ ۚ مَثَلُ نُورِهِ كَمِشْكَاةٍ فِيهَا مِصْبَاحٌ ۖ الْمِصْبَاحُ فِي زُجَاجَةٍ ۖ الزُّجَاجَةُ كَأَنَّهَا كَوْكَبٌ دُرِّيٌّ يُوقَدُ مِنْ شَجَرَةٍ مُبَارَكَةٍ زَيْتُونَةٍ لَا شَرْقِيَّةٍ وَلَا غَرْبِيَّةٍ يَكَادُ زَيْتُهَا يُضِيءُ وَلَوْ لَمْ تَمْسَسْهُ نَارٌ ۚ نُورٌ عَلَىٰ نُورٍ ۗ يَهْدِي اللَّهُ لِنُورِهِ مَنْ يَشَاءُ ۚ وَيَضْرِبُ اللَّهُ الْأَمْثَالَ لِلنَّاسِ ۗ وَاللَّهُ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمٌ {35}

[Pickthal 24:35] Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The similitude of His light is as a niche wherein is a lamp. The lamp is in a glass. The glass is as it were a shining star. (This lamp is) kindled from a blessed tree, an olive neither of the East nor of the West, whose oil would almost glow forth (of itself) though no fire touched it. Light upon light. Allah guideth unto His light whom He will. And Allah speaketh to mankind in allegories, for Allah is Knower of all things.
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 24:35]

The great mystery of existence, its eternal origin and infinite permanence is described in the most comprehensive and eloquent parable of light, which contains layer upon layer of allegorical comparisons to make apparent to man the purpose of the great author of the universe. The physical light is but a reflection of the true light in the realm of reality, and that true light is Allah. The performance of light is to manifest. It is Allah who manifests the universe. The human beings can only think of the factors of the spiritual world in terms of the phenomenal experience obtainable through physical senses; and in the phenomenal world light is the purest thing known to man. Due to the limitations of human experience man cannot see the real light but perceive only the lighted objects. So the physical experience is an illusion, because physical light has drawbacks incidental to its physical nature. It is dependent upon some source external to itself; it is a passing phenomenon; if it is taken to be a form of motion or energy it is unstable, like all physical phenomena; and it is dependent on space and time. The perfect light of Allah is free from any such defects. It prevails everywhere. It envelops everything. It is independent of time and space. The niche (mishkat) is the recess in the wall, high from the ground in the house. The divine light, according to the parable, is placed high above everything, all that which has been created, the whole universe. The lamp is the core of the real illumination. It is placed inside a glass which protects it from any outside interference or disturbance (refer to Saff: 8). The illumination shines bright like a star. In this world, governed by the laws of cause and effect, it becomes natural to know what makes the lamp burn, as no lamp burns without oil. So to give man the idea of causative factor of the generation of light, it is said that the oil of the blessed tree of olive keeps the lamp alive. It is said that after the great flood, the olive tree was the first to grow on the earth. This mystic olive is not localised. It is neither of the east nor of the west. It is universal like the light of Allah.

 

The light of wisdom (the Quran) in the heart of the Holy Prophet is as protected as the lamp in the glass. Verses 77 to 79 of al Waqi-ah clearly state that the Quran is a protected book; and no one can touch it save the thoroughly purified, the Ahl ul Bayt, according to the verse 33 of Ahzab. Therefore the true interpretation of "light upon light" is the Holy Prophet and his Ahl ul Bayt. It is further made clear in the next verse.

 

For "Allah guides whom He wills to His light" see the commentary of al Baqarah: 256 and 257-he who believes in Allah, indeed, has taken hold of the firmest handhold (or rope) which will not break off. Allah brings them out of the darkness into light-It is obvious that those who are guided unto His light are the thoroughly purified ones. They alone are the manifestations of the real light. Those who follow these reflection of the divine light receive guidance from the grace of Allah to the extend or degree of their sincere attachment to them. Salman was the only companion of the Holy Prophet who achieved the distinction of becoming one of the Ahl ul Bayt.

 

The Holy Prophet said:

 

"My Ahl ul Bayt are like the ark of Nuh. Whosoever sails on it is safe, and whosoever holds back shall perish."

 

Nubuwwah and imamah, jointly or separately, are the most perfect guidance unto the light of Allah. Allah Himself chooses and appoints the guide, but His choice is not arbitrary. There are conditions which have to be fulfilled. Refer to the commentary of al Baqarah: 124. When Allah appointed Ibrahim as an Imam after testing his faith and awareness, for the whole mankind, he requested Allah to continue this august office in his progeny. Allah agreed to do so, but "it is a covenant which shall not reach the unjust (zalim)" was added. According to verse 13 of Luqman polytheism is the greatest injustice (zulm), therefore as explained in detail in the commentary of al Baqarah: 124 the Ahl ul Bayt of the Holy Prophet was the only group which never worshipped any ghayrallah. Those who had worshipped idols at any time in their lives could not be chosen as Imams at all, but after becoming Muslims if they had accepted the Imams of the Ahl ul Bayt as their guides, and followed them, then, according to the degree of their sincerity and awareness, they are entitled to occupy suitable position in the journey towards the enlightenment available from the light of Allah. Mere verbal profession of faith in Allah without attachment to the Ahl ul Bayt is as bad as hypocrisy.

 

The existence of the supreme being has been compared to light in order to make human intellect understand a great attribute of Allah, otherwise He is the inconceivable absolute who has created the light. Light is His manifestation. It is not His being.

 

Aqa Mahdi Puya says:

 

To know the proper application of ayah al Nur the following points should be kept in view:

 

(i) It is a parable.

 

(ii) A parable implies several applications corresponding to various aspects.

 

(iii) The light should be understood in its widest sense, as a self-evident being which is evident by itself, and through which other beings become evident.

 

(iv) The light emanating from a source may pass through transparent or opaque mediums. Generally it is not serviceable when it passes through an opaque medium but is profitable when it goes through a transparent medium.

 

Transparent mediums have different degrees of transparency. Better conductivity depends on the degree of refinement and purification of the medium.

 

There may be a source or cause which produces the light. It may also be self-illuminating .

 

(vii) Usually light proceeding from a source illuminates a particular area, leaving other areas unlighted.

 

(viii) The source of the light, in this verse, is not localised. It is neither of the east nor the west-not any particular area or direction. See my note in Maryam: 16 to 40.

 

(ix) The parable is applicable to the process of creation as well as to guidance and also to legislation in order to regulate human behaviour both as an individual and as a member of society.

 

(x) Light as a symbol of guidance is one of the attributes of Allah. It is manifested in both the realms of creation and legislation.

 

Allah is the light through which every created being comes into evidence, and every being is guided toward the destination where it should reach. To reach to the destination of salvation, bliss and satisfaction it has to do that which guidance points out.

 

In every realm and sphere there is a point in which the light of creation or guidance manifests itself originally, and then illuminates the surroundings. Niche {mishtat) refers to this "point" as the exalted holy place chosen for the manifestation of Allah's name and attributes. There should be an entity whose cognitive self becomes the focus of light. Such entities have been pointed out clearly in Ahzab: 33 and Ali Imran: 61 as the first and the foremost in receiving the light of existence in the arc of descent and the-last in the arc of ascent. In the realm of creation they are the best entities or "points" in which the light of creation manifested itself originally. In the realm of legislation and guidance too they are the best models.

 

If applied to any individual the niche is the power of expression and the "house" (in which the niche is situated) is the body.

 

If applied to the group of the Ahl ul Bayt and the prophets, the niche in the house is the Holy Prophet.

 

The divine light passed through the purest transparent chain of prophets, without any detour, and manifested itself in its full glory in the Holy Prophet, to illuminate the human society for ever.

 

All the mediums-lamp, glass etcetera-which are the various stages between the original source and the final spreading of the light should be of the highest transparency so as not to affect the purity of light passing through them. It implies that the minds, hearts, loins and wombs of the ancestors of the Holy Prophet were free from the dirt of polytheism.

 

The house in which the niche always remained is described in verse 36. There always exists a group of persons whose hearts and minds are fully occupied with the remembrance of Allah.

 

The niche is the source of light, and the oil of the blessed tree is a pure "light above light". There is not a slightest trace of darkness. Darkness or evil exists outside the sphere of the houses in which the niche is located and cannot enter into it.

 

Also refer to the commentary of al Baqarah: 275; Nisa: 175 ; Ma-idah: 1 5 and Yunus: 87.

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35 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

 

 

It seems the idea of mukhlisin and these infallible beings of light being made before Adam AS and all that, are being forced/brought into the religion that just doesn't fit in Quran. 

 


"

The verse of Almighty Allah:

أَنبِئُونِي بِأَسْمَاء هَؤُلاء إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِين

Tell me the names of those if you are right.28

has a lot of wisdom hidden in it. One of them is that He gave a capability to Adam to teach the names of Imams to the angels. Also, He made angels capable enough to learn the meanings from Adam. Thus the Almighty Allah taught them to Adam and the latter taught them to the angels. Thus Adam is like a knowledgeable teacher and angels are like knowledge-seeking students. This meaning is explained by Holy Quran.>

https://www.al-islam.org/kamaaluddin-wa-tamaamun-nima-vol-1-shaykh-saduq/introduction#why-almighty-Allah-ordered-angels-prostrate-adam

"

Why the Almighty Allah ordered angels to prostrate before Adam (a.s.)?

The Almighty Allah ordered His angels to prostrate to Adam as a mark of his respect while the latter was not visible to them. He ordered the angles to prostrate to Adam when he had made the souls of his proofs enter his loins. Thus, that prostration was like Allah’s worship, Adam’s obedience and as a mark of honor for those souls which were present in the loin of Adam. Iblees refused to prostrate to Adam out of jealousy because Allah had made the loins of Adam a source of His proofs and did not do so to Shaitan’s loins.

Hence, he treaded on the way of infidelity because of his jealousy and moved away from the way of obedience of his Lord. Hence he was banished from the neighborhood of the Lord. He was cursed and was given the title of rajeem (the accursed one) because he denied occultation and put forward this excuse of not prostrating before Adam:

أَنَاْ خَيْرٌ مِّنْهُ خَلَقْتَنِي مِن نَّارٍ وَخَلَقْتَهُ مِن طِينٍ

I am better than he: Thou hast created me of fire, while him Thou didst create of dust.23

Thus he denied what he could not see. He made the physical body of Adam an excuse for denial of those who were present in his loins. He did not accept the fact that Adam was made only the Qibla and angels were ordered to prostrate before him so that the personalities present in his loins are honored. Therefore, a person who has faith in the Qaim in his occultation is like the angels of that time who prostrated before Adam and obeyed Allah in this way.

Whereas a person who does not have faith in the Qaim in his occultation is like Shaitan who refused to prostrate to Adam..."

Edited by S.M.H.A.

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45 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

Say, "O My servants who have transgressed against themselves [by sinning], do not despair of the mercy of Allah . Indeed, Allah forgives all sins. Indeed, it is He who is the Forgiving, the Merciful."

Muhammad and Isa ibn Mariam, and Ahlul Bayt, are included in the above and muslims who submit to Allah.

The one who has been sent by Allah as "Rehmatan lil aalameen", addressed by Allah in words like "la taqnatu min Rehmatillah", are you really serious? 

وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَاكَ إِلَّا رَحْمَةً لِّلْعَالَمِينَ

21:107

45 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

46:9

Say: 'I am not an innovation among the Messengers, and I know not what shall be done with me or with you. I only follow what is revealed to me; I am only a clear warner.'

This verse deconstructs your argument.

 

Surah Al-Ahqaf, Verse 9:

قُلْ مَا كُنتُ بِدْعًا مِّنَ الرُّسُلِ وَمَا أَدْرِي مَا يُفْعَلُ بِي وَلَا بِكُمْ إِنْ أَتَّبِعُ إِلَّا مَا يُوحَىٰ إِلَيَّ وَمَا أَنَا إِلَّا نَذِيرٌ مُّبِينٌ

Say: I am not the first of the apostles, and I do not know what will be done with me or with you: I do not follow anything but that which is revealed to me, and I am nothing but a plain warner.

(English - Shakir)

"I follow not anything but that which is revealed to me" confirms that every word and deed of the Holy Prophet was in strict compliance of Allah's will. That makes him infallible and that is confirming my argument. 

Please note that not every revelation is a verse of Quran, not every revelation need to be disclosed or presented before people, not every revelation requires the arrival or presence of Jibra'il e.g., 

Surah An-Najm, Verse 10:

فَأَوْحَىٰ إِلَىٰ عَبْدِهِ مَا أَوْحَىٰ

And He revealed to His servant what He revealed.

(English - Shakir)

What is that "ma awha"? Do you know anything about that revelation? If yes, let me know about it and your source as well.

51 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

Men are made the same as every other man.

Muhammad and Ahlul Bayt are not light, this is clear contradiction.

Hmm so let me know about these verses:

Surah Al-Araf, Verse 172:

وَإِذْ أَخَذَ رَبُّكَ مِن بَنِي آدَمَ مِن ظُهُورِهِمْ ذُرِّيَّتَهُمْ وَأَشْهَدَهُمْ عَلَىٰ أَنفُسِهِمْ أَلَسْتُ بِرَبِّكُمْ قَالُوا بَلَىٰ شَهِدْنَا أَن تَقُولُوا يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ إِنَّا كُنَّا عَنْ هَٰذَا غَافِلِينَ

And when your Lord brought forth from the children of Adam, from their backs, their descendants, and made them bear witness against their own souls: Am I not your Lord? They said: Yes! we bear witness. Lest you should say on the day of resurrection: Surely we were heedless of this.

(English - Shakir)

What was that place & what was the shape of those humans?

Surah Aal-e-Imran, Verse 81:

وَإِذْ أَخَذَ اللَّهُ مِيثَاقَ النَّبِيِّينَ لَمَا آتَيْتُكُم مِّن كِتَابٍ وَحِكْمَةٍ ثُمَّ جَاءَكُمْ رَسُولٌ مُّصَدِّقٌ لِّمَا مَعَكُمْ لَتُؤْمِنُنَّ بِهِ وَلَتَنصُرُنَّهُ قَالَ أَأَقْرَرْتُمْ وَأَخَذْتُمْ عَلَىٰ ذَٰلِكُمْ إِصْرِي قَالُوا أَقْرَرْنَا قَالَ فَاشْهَدُوا وَأَنَا مَعَكُم مِّنَ الشَّاهِدِينَ

And when Allah made a covenant through the prophets: Certainly what I have given you of Book and wisdom-- then an apostle comes to you verifying that which is with you, you must believe in him, and you must aid him. He said: Do you affirm and accept My compact in this (matter)? They said: We do affirm. He said: Then bear witness, and I (too) am of the bearers of witness with you.

(English - Shakir)

Again the same question, the place where Allah took covenant and the shape of these Prophets?

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On 10/28/2017 at 8:46 AM, just a muslim said:

you guys do not understand. i am not saying i am sunni so i believe sunni hadith. i am saying i have good reason to believe the sunni books of rijal/men, and zero reason to believe the shia books of rijal/men. and one of you is trying to say i am wrong by assuming the shia hadith to be true. while the other one is using historical accounts, whos authenticity no one knows, to prove a point while doubting the authenticity of hadith, which have been verified to a much higher extent than historical records.

You are saying you believe in Sunni hadith because some of them became scientifically proven not more than 50 years ago. You mentioned fasting specifically. That is the only reason for you to trust Sunni literature.

Using your 'criteria', I provided a link about the importance of fasting in shia narrations. Based on that, you should trust shia sources just as much.

You are yet to provide a 'good' reason for believing Sunni hadith over shia hadith.

On 10/28/2017 at 8:46 AM, just a muslim said:

to put it simply, and let's just assume for the sake of this discussion and simplicity that i do not trust sunni narrators either, i will say this:

i do not know who those people who narrated the shia hadith were. and those who said how those people were, good or bad, i dont know them either. and i have no reason to trust them. and that is why i asked, why the shias trust them? can you answer this question @shiaman14?

you don't know the people who narrated Sunni hadith either. Everything you know about anyone in Sunni hadith is also a narration from someone else.

Every single argument you have against Shia literature can be used against you on Sunni literature.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Salsabeel said:

The one who has been sent by Allah as "Rehmatan lil aalameen", addressed by Allah in words like "la taqnatu min Rehmatillah", are you really serious? 

The Quran uses 3abd  directly for my servant/servants for Jesus ibn Mariam and Muhammad in Quran.  I could find them for you if you'd like.

1 hour ago, Salsabeel said:

"I follow not anything but that which is revealed to me" confirms that every word and deed of the Holy Prophet was in strict compliance of Allah's will. That makes him infallible and that is confirming my argument. 

It also means the Prophet Followed only Quran.   Also --->"Follow" here is  in present tense,  If I told you I follow Islam or followed Islam, you would say that I was a muslim but that does not insinuate infallibility on me.  I could take several excerpts from the Quran that refer to fallible individuals in the same way you're tying infallibility to this verse as a proof.  The logic just does not follow.

We all intend to follow Gods will and may trip up along the way, we are still followers.  If one person makes one sin, while following a religion (let's say a small sin, or not even a heavy sin) does that mean they're instantly no longer followers?  Have we become Takfiri now?

1 hour ago, Salsabeel said:

Surah Al-Araf, Verse 172:

وَإِذْ أَخَذَ رَبُّكَ مِن بَنِي آدَمَ مِن ظُهُورِهِمْ ذُرِّيَّتَهُمْ وَأَشْهَدَهُمْ عَلَىٰ أَنفُسِهِمْ أَلَسْتُ بِرَبِّكُمْ قَالُوا بَلَىٰ شَهِدْنَا أَن تَقُولُوا يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ إِنَّا كُنَّا عَنْ هَٰذَا غَافِلِينَ

And when your Lord brought forth from the children of Adam, from their backs, their descendants, and made them bear witness against their own souls: Am I not your Lord? They said: Yes! we bear witness. Lest you should say on the day of resurrection: Surely we were heedless of this.

(English - Shakir)

What was that place & what was the shape of those humans?

Surah Aal-e-Imran, Verse 81:

وَإِذْ أَخَذَ اللَّهُ مِيثَاقَ النَّبِيِّينَ لَمَا آتَيْتُكُم مِّن كِتَابٍ وَحِكْمَةٍ ثُمَّ جَاءَكُمْ رَسُولٌ مُّصَدِّقٌ لِّمَا مَعَكُمْ لَتُؤْمِنُنَّ بِهِ وَلَتَنصُرُنَّهُ قَالَ أَأَقْرَرْتُمْ وَأَخَذْتُمْ عَلَىٰ ذَٰلِكُمْ إِصْرِي قَالُوا أَقْرَرْنَا قَالَ فَاشْهَدُوا وَأَنَا مَعَكُم مِّنَ الشَّاهِدِينَ

And when Allah made a covenant through the prophets: Certainly what I have given you of Book and wisdom-- then an apostle comes to you verifying that which is with you, you must believe in him, and you must aid him. He said: Do you affirm and accept My compact in this (matter)? They said: We do affirm. He said: Then bear witness, and I (too) am of the bearers of witness with you.

(English - Shakir)

Again the same question, the place where Allah took covenant and the shape of these Prophets?

If Muhammad came before Adam, then he is not a Son of Adam, yet we are all called children of Adam.  You're turning Muhammad into something that is not Human.  Is Muhammad human or not?   We are all Children of Adam, including the Mother of Muhammad and Father of Muhammad.

I will answer your question regardless.  You asked what place and what shape were those humans referred to in 172 of al Araf? 

7:168-176

And We cut them up into nations in the earth, some of them righteous, and some of them otherwise; and We tried them with good things and evil, that haply they should return.

And there succeeded after them a succession who inherited the Book, taking the chance goods of this lower world, and saying, 'It will be forgiven us'; and if chance goods the like of them come to them, they will take them. Has not the compact of the Book been taken touching them, that they should say concerning God nothing but the truth? And they have studied what is in it; and the Last Abode is better for those who are godfearing. Do you not understand?

And those who hold fast to the Book, and perform the prayer -- surely We leave not to waste the wage of those who set aright.

And when We shook the mountain above them as if it were a canopy, and they supposed it was about to fall on them: 'Take forcefully what We have given you, and remember what is in it; haply you will be godfearing.'

And when thy Lord took from the Children of Adam, from their loins, their seed, and made them testify touching themselves, 'Am I not your Lord?' They said, 'Yes, we testify'-- lest you should say on the Day of Resurrection, 'As for us, we were heedless of this,'

or lest you say, 'Our fathers were idolaters aforetime, and we were seed after them. What, wilt Thou then destroy us for the deeds of the vain-doers?'

So We distinguish the signs; and haply they will return.

And recite to them the tiding of him to whom We gave Our signs, but he cast them off; and Satan followed after him, and he became one of the perverts.

There is a lot.. ALOT going on here.  Either way I'm attempting to answer your question;  it says"  WHEN thy Lord took from Children of Adam from "Their"  loins.  The first thing I noticed is that "their" is being used possessively, in speech.  Plainly, Allah takes from children of Adam (not adam himself), then from the children's loins their seed, and made them testify touching upon themselves in oath that Allah is their Lord.  So that they don't claim they were heedless/oblivious/blind etc., and also so that they don't say their victims to what their forefathers taught them.  So Allah/They distinguished the Signs of Allah so they will return.   Allah tells Muhammad to recite of a time where a man existed whom Allah gave signs but discarded them and became victim of Satan's perversion.

The shape is not determinable, nor is the place yet, to your question.

If Allah took all the Seeds of Adam, at the same time for this oath, All those to have ever lived/will live, it would just say directly Allah took the seeds of Adam/descendants at that time,  But it does not.  Instead it says,  When.... from Children of Adam, from their loins,  their seed....    seems to IMPLY (I'm assuming this from reading) that this event did not occur just once.  It's something that has recurred over, and over, from generation to generation this oath taken place.

 

3:79-85

It belongs not to any mortal that God should give him the Book, the Judgment, the Prophethood, then he should say to men, 'Be you servants to me apart from God.' Rather, 'Be you masters in that you know the Book, and in that you study.'

He would never order you to take the angels and the Prophets as Lords; what, would He order you to disbelieve, after you have surrendered?  [Keep in mind obeying Muhammad as man, his every action/command would mean you're taking Muhammad as a Lord, but Obeying Muhammad the messenger as he delivers the message, is obeying Allah - This Is why Allah made it distinct in Quran,  Why else Would Allah mention this?   If messengers were to be obeyed unquestioningly etc. etc. why mention this verse?  So Allah ensures you follow Him and not his prophets/men] @Gaius I. Caesar

And when God took compact with the Prophets: 'That I have given (past tense) you of Book and Wisdom; then there shall come to you a Messenger confirming what is with you -- you shall believe in him and you shall help him; do you agree?' He said. 'And do you take My load on you on that condition?' They said, 'We do agree.' God said, 'Bear witness so, and I shall be with you among the witnesses.'

And whoever turned away after that - they were the defiantly disobedient.

So is it other than the religion of Allah they desire, while to Him have submitted [all] those within the heavens and earth, willingly or by compulsion, and to Him they will be returned? [two types of submitters, willingly and by compulsion,  very important to note, because it begs the question if the Prophet's were compelled or willing servants]

Say, "We have believed in Allah and in what was revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Descendants, and in what was given to Moses and Jesus and to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [submitting] to Him."  [If Muhammad @Salsabeel was distinct (not a child of Adam, or a separate entity alive/cognizant of the time of Adam) messenger apart from the messenger, why verses like this and others? -- Why Does Allah want us to say this, why not Mention Imam Ali  AS like Shia's do, or Sahaba even?]

Say, "We have believed in Allah and in what was revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Descendants, and in what was given to Moses and Jesus and to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [submitting] to Him."

You asked the place where the covenant and shape of these prophets, they were definitely shapes of humans at this time, place, is somewhere on earth now.  If I'm reading these properly. So these events transpired independently at different places in the realm, presumably.   Allah uses "given" in the verse 3:81, meaning this is after the time of Adam.  An Angel /Messenger will come and verify/confirm the book/message with the prophet(s). These are also independent events exclusive to each prophet, sort of similarly to the children of adam reference above.

So far, I'm only seeing you stretch and stretch and stretch even more connecting dots that aren't meant to be connected.  It seems you're exploiting vague instances/reference and loosely tying in something that was not said explicitly. Though I'm seeming to learn more and more we discuss and think about things.

You probably realize this but the only way you read and tie the things you say to me the way you are, are from what you've learned in Hadith/narrative's that make up Shiism theology.

You're not reading this Qur'an with a blank fresh mind as I'm attempting to (dispelling whatever Sunni theologies/hadith in my mind to reconcile the verses).

2 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

Please note that not every revelation is a verse of Quran, not every revelation need to be disclosed or presented before people, not every revelation requires the arrival or presence of Jibra'il e.g., 

 

According to Qu'ran, Allah ONLY spoke to Musa AS.  I've proven this already in the link to the prior thread where we discussed.  See below pasted excerpt.

42:51-52

And it is not for any human being that Allah should speak to him except by revelation or from behind a partition or that He sends a messenger to reveal, by His permission, what He wills. Indeed, He is Most High and Wise.

*Yukalima, is typically understood to mean communicate/speak, though in it's actual form, it means "give word" This is fundamentally different from actual talking/saying things with a voice. Note this distinction**  Also note the ORDER these are in. 

---From the above, we understand there are 3 ways for Allah to converse with humans.  Revelation, from behind a veil/partition, or sends a messenger to reveal.---------

And thus We have revealed to you an inspiration of Our command. You did not know what is the Book or [what is] faith, but We have made it a light by which We guide whom We will of Our servants. And indeed, [O Muhammad], you guide to a straight path -

--How did Allah according to Quran "give words"/communicate to Muhammad?

One thing that we know, from Qu'ran, is that Allah TALKED with Musa AS. --

4:163-164

We have revealed to thee as We revealed to Noah, and the Prophets after him, and We revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, Jesus and Job, Jonah and Aaron and Solomon, and We gave to David Psalms,

And (We sent) messengers We have mentioned to you before and messengers we have not mentioned to you; and to Musa, Allah addressed His Word, speaking (to him):

--Allah communicated to Musa AS by speaking directly to him?  Let's see.--

20:11-12, 17-18

So when he came to it, a voice was uttered: O Musa:

Surely I am your Lord, therefore put off your shoes; surely you are in the sacred valley, Tuwa,

-Allah is speaking in first person. No angel is saying this to Musa.--

And what is this in your right hand, O Musa?

He said: This is my staff: I recline on it and I beat the leaves with it to make them fall upon my sheep, and I have other uses for it.

--Allah, is literally talking with Musa AS.  In the first person.  As you may be familiar with the passages, Musa AS is out in the wilderness, doing whatever it is he was doing.  And Allah is having a Dialogue/conversation with Allah.  Look at that! No one in between them, Allah and Musa AS. ** This is PRIOR to Musa AS receiving Revelation ***

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16 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

I'll start from 34:45 then to 53  if that's okay

Those that were before them also cried lies, yet they reached not a tenth of what We gave them; they cried lies to My Messengers, and how was My horror!

45--Say (Muhammad): 'I give you but one admonition, that you stand unto God, two by two and one by one, and then reflect: no madness is in your comrade. He is naught but a warner unto you, before a terrible chastisement.'

At first glance I see Allah is addressing Muhammad SAW.  It also appears Allah is describing the Unseen of when it was too late for the disbelievers, claiming they believe in the message, but it was too late for their words to matter/reach.   The beginning part of these passages referred to prior people whom God's message was being delivered to, they barely received 1/10th of the message and doubted/accused the messengers of the past of revealing lies.  In response, God commands Muhammad to say,  that Muhammad isn't asking personal wage, for Allah is who rewards, who knows the truth of the Unseen, and that he is Truth, where no falsehoods originate nor can be brought in place of truth.  And then for Muhammad to tell them if he's gone astray, it is because of his own personal loss, but if he is guided, it is because of what Allah reveals.

The above is a misunderstanding. In this verse, Allah is speaking to the people and telling them the Prophet is a warner.

16 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

9:43

God pardon thee (Muhammad)! Why gavest thou them leave, till it was clear to thee which of them spoke the truth, and thou knewest the liars?

 

[Shakir 9:43] Allah pardon you! Why did you give them leave until those who spoke the truth had become manifest to you and you had known the liars?
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 9:43]

Aqa Mahdi Puya says:

Like verse 2 of Fat-h, the companions are addressed here through the Holy Prophet. The manner, mode and trend of expression is the same as in verse 1 of Tahrim or verse 68 of Anfal. The Holy Prophet had the option of giving permission (Nur: 62), and there was no prohibitory order prior to his action. He did not want to expose the hypocrites on his own, unless Allah condemns them as He does here and in other places.

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2 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

The above is a misunderstanding. In this verse, Allah is speaking to the people and telling them the Prophet is a warner.

[Shakir 9:43] Allah pardon you! Why did you give them leave until those who spoke the truth had become manifest to you and you had known the liars?
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 9:43]

Aqa Mahdi Puya says:

Like verse 2 of Fat-h, the companions are addressed here through the Holy Prophet. The manner, mode and trend of expression is the same as in verse 1 of Tahrim or verse 68 of Anfal. The Holy Prophet had the option of giving permission (Nur: 62), and there was no prohibitory order prior to his action. He did not want to expose the hypocrites on his own, unless Allah condemns them as He does here and in other places.

Could you help me understand the misunderstanding in my laymen/breakdown of the verses specifically?  I seem to agree Allah is having Muhammad SAW  tell the people he's a warner, in addition to the rest I noted.

As for 9:43, I disagree with Aqa Mahdi Puya's explanation here.  Because of what follows /precedes:

9:38

O believers, what is amiss with you, that when it is said to you, 'Go forth in the way of God,' you sink down heavily to the ground? Are you so content with this present life, rather than the world to come? Yet the enjoyment of this present life, compared with the world to come, is a little thing.

Seem's directly Allah is talking to believers (does that include Muhammad too?, I don't have answer to that question yet)

9:39

If you go not forth, He will chastise you with a painful chastisement, and instead of you He will substitute another people; and you will not hurt Him anything, for God is powerful over everything.

9:40

If you do not help him, yet God has helped him already, when the unbelievers drove him forth the second of two, when the two were in the Cave, when he said to his companion, 'Sorrow not; surely God is with us.' Then God sent down on him His Shechina, and confirmed him with legions you did not see; and He made the word of the unbelievers the lowest; and God's word is the uppermost; God is All-mighty, All-wise.

Now I have answer to that question, they're talking directly to believers other than Muhammad SAW.

9:41

Go forth, light and heavy! Struggle in God's way with your possessions and your selves; that is better for you, did you know.

9:42

Were it a gain near at hand, and an easy journey, they would have followed thee; but the distance was too far for them. Still they will swear by God, 'Had we been able, we would have gone out with you,' so destroying their souls; and God knows that they are truly liars.

God is now talking to Muhammad, about them/believers following thee  (Muhammad), there is no way I can see it any other way than that.  NEVER anywhere in the Qu'ran does this silent juxtaposition transition to a companion/sahaba exist, it  would have been explicit. 

9:43

God pardon thee! Why gavest thou them leave, till it was clear to thee which of them spoke the truth, and thou knewest the liars?

The tone is the same here, directly to Muhammad..., Allah asks why one person gives plural "THEM LEAVE",  Why would a companion in the lifetime of the Prophet have this level of authority, especially when Shia's think of some of these companions as unworthy?  [Quran 9:101] Among the Aarabs around you, there are hypocrites. Also, among the city dwellers, there are those who are accustomed to hypocrisy. You do not know them, but we know them. We will double the retribution for them, then they end up committed to a terrible retribution. "   <--  It is quite possible that Muhammad did not know who the individuals who are hypocrites who stayed behind, it is in alignment with 9:43.

9:44

Those who believe in Allah and the Last Day would not ask permission of you to be excused from striving with their wealth and their lives. And Allah is Knowing of those who fear Him.

^^^  Why would Allah be talking about about companions such as Umar, Abu Bakr, Salman, etc. etc.?  Why would they ask Sahaba leave and not Muhammad?

I'm sorry @shiaman14, I cannot read it another way at this point.

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5 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

You are saying you believe in Sunni hadith because some of them became scientifically proven not more than 50 years ago. You mentioned fasting specifically. That is the only reason for you to trust Sunni literature.

Using your 'criteria', I provided a link about the importance of fasting in shia narrations. Based on that, you should trust shia sources just as much.You are yet to provide a 'good' reason for believing Sunni hadith over shia hadith.

1. i already said let's assume for the sake of simplicity that i dont believe in sunni hadith either.

2. i gave you hadith that mentioned the fast of daud a.s. being the best, which was the every other day fasting. then i gave you a list of articles telling how and why the every other day fasting was the best. my point was not to say that voluntary fasts are a sunnah, and fasting is beneficial scientifically. hence the hadith must be true. my point was, fasting e.o.d(every other day) is the best fasting according to hadith and science has proved it now. 

3. this is not the only reason. and i hope you understand this part of my "criteria" now as mentioned in point 2 above. and i understand that you dont find it a "good" reason, but i think that was because you misunderstood me point. which i explained in point 2.

4. if you could provide an equally "ungood" reason for me to believe in shia hadith, i could consider the shia literature.

5 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

you don't know the people who narrated Sunni hadith either. Everything you know about anyone in Sunni hadith is also a narration from someone else.

Every single argument you have against Shia literature can be used against you on Sunni literature.

having said all that above, my reason for believing the sunni hadith is not entirely the explicit authenticity of hadith. my reason for believing in sunni hadith is because i believe the sunni rijal books. and my reason for believing the sunni rijal books is that if i dont, then the quran which has been transmitted to us and we have today, i will have no reason to trust it. and i want to trust the quran and dont want to be a kafir/disbeliever, which obv non of us wants. this is because the quran has been transmitted by people who according to sunni rijal books are authentic, while according to shia rijal books are unknown, generally speaking.

i only explained everything above for the sake of explanation, not to get a response. because as i said, you can assume that i dont believe in sunni rijal or books or hadith. that i only believe in the quran. the question i asked initially was why YOU believe in SHIA hadith. do you have ANY logical reason for believing the shia narrators and hence shia hadith?

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5 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

Seem's directly Allah is talking to believers (does that include Muhammad too?, I don't have answer to that question yet)

let's say, u r the messenger from king salman, with the message:-

1. "O people of the kingdom, obey king salman dan obey his messenger".

or

2. "O people of the kingdom, Obey king salman and his messenger".

r u included inside "O people of the kingdom?".

it make sense to me, even before the proclamation of these 2 commands, u r already obeying king salman, otherwise he won't appoint u as his messenger.

can i ask u something?

9:36 [sahih internationa]

Indeed, the number of months with Allah is twelve [lunar] months in the register of Allah [from] the day He created the heavens and the earth; of these, four are sacred. That is the correct religion....

using the Quran alone,

1. what are these 4 months?

2. how does knowing these 12 months, will correct your religion?

 

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3 hours ago, hoskot said:

let's say, u r the messenger from king salman, with the message:-

1. "O people of the kingdom, obey king salman dan obey his messenger".

or

2. "O people of the kingdom, Obey king salman and his messenger".

r u included inside "O people of the kingdom?".

it make sense to me, even before the proclamation of these 2 commands, u r already obeying king salman, otherwise he won't appoint u as his messenger.

On this we agree, (If you read further, you will see where the Prophet was then known to not be addressed in my response, though), The Quran already has examples of obey being used once, twice in the same context with no special/explicit difference.

3 hours ago, hoskot said:

9:36 [sahih internationa]

Indeed, the number of months with Allah is twelve [lunar] months in the register of Allah [from] the day He created the heavens and the earth; of these, four are sacred. That is the correct religion....

using the Quran alone,

1. what are these 4 months?

2. how does knowing these 12 months, will correct your religion?

You bring up a very good point, one I have not considered before.

Using Qu'ran alone, I could not give you the name of these 12 months, at least not now to my ability.

However I'm not sure if knowing these months will or will  not correct my religion necessarily.

Qu'ran already tells us we should never fight someone unless they wage war with us or fight us, stipulating peace. We should not be the aggressor.

2:190

And fight in the way of God with those; who fight with you, but aggress not: God loves not the aggressors.

9:36-37 :

The number of the months, with God, is twelve in the Book of God, the day that He created the heavens and the earth; four of them are sacred. That is the right religion. So wrong not each other during them. And fight the unbelievers totally even as they fight you totally and know that God is with the godfearing.

The month postponed is an increase of unbelief whereby the unbelievers go astray; one year they make it profane, and hallow it another, to agree with the number that God has hallowed, and so profane what God has hallowed. Decked out fair to them are their evil deeds; and God guides not the people of the unbelievers.

It seems even if I don't know which of the 4 are sacred, I'm not in bad shape... I'm not suppose to fight anyone unless they fight me anyway...?   We can fight the unbelievers totally when they fight us (instigate, aggress us first) during these 4 months, but of course not begin hostilities with them.

But honestly, I may not even be reading this correctly, still.

It says do not wrong each other, during sacred months.   Does wrong mean to fight?  When it says  don't wrong each other, does it mean each other as in among muslims/believers not just unbelievers and muslims, or is it speaking to all humans?   So do not wrong which could mean steal, hurt, be unjust to anyone etc...  Then again, we shouldn't be wronging anyone nor being unjust with them regardless what month it is, which conveys that perhaps especially these four months are particularly important of mention..  Could implicate a more severe punishment?  Not sure.

Perhaps these 4 months are part of 3:7,  [It is He who sent down upon thee the Book, wherein are verses clear that are the Essence of the Book, and others ambiguous. As for those in whose hearts is swerving, they follow the ambiguous part, desiring dissension, and desiring its interpretation; and none knows its interpretation, save only God. And those firmly rooted in knowledge say, 'We believe in it; all is from our Lord'; yet none remembers, but men possessed of minds.]

I do have a question back for you, do you think it's possible that 9:36 has verses ambiguous referred to in 3:7, and that those who kept changing the months are those who were trying to follow the ambiguous part of the Qu'ran @hoskot?  Are the postponers the ones in 9:37 the same  in 3:7?  Perhaps the months were unspecified for a reason, that muslims just keep four months, or use four months and the test was that humans be consistent with them and not change them.

(I'm being funny here)  Or maybe Allah doesn't want to tell us the four months, to keep us on our toes to never wrong anyone, just in case it is one of the four months! (lol)

I have a lot to think about here man.  Great point; Thanks for this!

Edited by wmehar2

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9 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

The Quran uses 3abd  directly for my servant/servants for Jesus ibn Mariam and Muhammad in Quran.  I could find them for you if you'd like.

Off course they are His true servants. Am I denying that? I have already quoted you the verse:
15:42
إِنَّ عِبَادِي لَيْسَ لَكَ عَلَيْهِمْ سُلْطَانٌ إِلاَّ مَنِ اتَّبَعَكَ مِنَ الْغَاوِينَ

What I was pointing you is the difference between "Inna Ibadi" & "Ya Ibadiyalladhina asrafu". You would have not included Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in the list of verse 39:58 if you kept in mind the command of Allah mentioned in the verse 7:31
وَلاَ تُسْرِفُواْ إِنَّهُ لاَ يُحِبُّ الْمُسْرِفِينَ

At one hand you are continuously saying that Prophet followed the revelation and on the other hand you are making him a musrif (nauzobillah).

9 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

It also means the Prophet Followed only Quran.

I don't know what you mean by this "ONLY". Allah's communication with His messenger is not limited in any sense. The verse does not say "only Quran". It says إِنْ أَتَّبِعُ إِلَّا مَا يُوحَىٰ إِلَيَّ , every revelation to Prophet was not necessarily part of Quran or a verse of Quran.

 

9 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

We all intend to follow Gods will and may trip up along the way, we are still followers.  If one person makes one sin, while following a religion (let's say a small sin, or not even a heavy sin) does that mean they're instantly no longer followers?  Have we become Takfiri now?

:) This is the difference, a sin makes a person "sinner". The command of Allah is this:

وَلَا تُطِعْ مِنْهُمْ آثِمًا أَوْ كَفُورًا
76:24 And obey not from among them a sinner or an ungrateful one.

That's why I want to have your understanding of "Basharun Mithlokum". We comman human being are sinners, but not the Prophet. He is protected one, he is the purified one, he is the mercy of Allah for the whole worlds, he is the best of creation etc. How can we compare his blessed personality with ours.

9 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

So far, I'm only seeing you stretch and stretch and stretch even more connecting dots that aren't meant to be connected.

That was a willful & purposeful stretch, to show you that you need of "rasikhoona fil ilm", "madinatul ilm and baab-e-madinatul ilm", the "sadiqeen", who can correctly interpret these verses.  What you and me can do is to do guess work (dhan), which is not allowed to interpret the verses of Quran. إَنَّ الظَّنَّ لاَ يُغْنِي مِنَ الْحَقِّ شَيْئًا


 


 

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10 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

Look at that! No one in between them, Allah and Musa AS.

To understand kallamallahu (Allah spoke) it is necessary to refer to verse 51 of al Shura:

"It is not to any mortal (man) that Allah should speak to him except by inspiration or through (from behind) a veil,"

Allah does not speak in the sense attributed to the created beings who use the mouth and the tongue to produce sound. The veil can be anything which can be caused to produce sound.
 

10 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

--How did Allah according to Quran "give words"/communicate to Muhammad?

He gave noor (words) to Noor-e-Muhammad (peace & blessings of Allah be upon him & his pure progeny)

42:52

وَكَذَلِكَ أَوْحَيْنَا إِلَيْكَ رُوحًا مِّنْ أَمْرِنَا مَا كُنتَ تَدْرِي مَا الْكِتَابُ وَلَا الْإِيمَانُ وَلَكِن جَعَلْنَاهُ نُورًا نَّهْدِي بِهِ مَنْ نَّشَاء مِنْ عِبَادِنَا وَإِنَّكَ لَتَهْدِي إِلَى صِرَاطٍ مُّسْتَقِيمٍ

 

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5 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

On this we agree, (If you read further, you will see where the Prophet was then known to not be addressed in my response, though), The Quran already has examples of obey being used once, twice in the same context with no special/explicit difference.

You bring up a very good point, one I have not considered before.

Using Qu'ran alone, I could not give you the name of these 12 months, at least not now to my ability.

However I'm not sure if knowing these months will or will  not correct my religion necessarily.

Qu'ran already tells us we should never fight someone unless they wage war with us or fight us, stipulating peace. We should not be the aggressor.

2:190

And fight in the way of God with those; who fight with you, but aggress not: God loves not the aggressors.

9:36-37 :

The number of the months, with God, is twelve in the Book of God, the day that He created the heavens and the earth; four of them are sacred. That is the right religion. So wrong not each other during them. And fight the unbelievers totally even as they fight you totally and know that God is with the godfearing.

The month postponed is an increase of unbelief whereby the unbelievers go astray; one year they make it profane, and hallow it another, to agree with the number that God has hallowed, and so profane what God has hallowed. Decked out fair to them are their evil deeds; and God guides not the people of the unbelievers.

It seems even if I don't know which of the 4 are sacred, I'm not in bad shape... I'm not suppose to fight anyone unless they fight me anyway...?   We can fight the unbelievers totally when they fight us (instigate, aggress us first) during these 4 months, but of course not begin hostilities with them.

But honestly, I may not even be reading this correctly, still.

It says do not wrong each other, during sacred months.   Does wrong mean to fight?  When it says  don't wrong each other, does it mean each other as in among muslims/believers not just unbelievers and muslims, or is it speaking to all humans?   So do not wrong which could mean steal, hurt, be unjust to anyone etc...  Then again, we shouldn't be wronging anyone nor being unjust with them regardless what month it is, which conveys that perhaps especially these four months are particularly important of mention..  Could implicate a more severe punishment?  Not sure.

Perhaps these 4 months are part of 3:7,  [It is He who sent down upon thee the Book, wherein are verses clear that are the Essence of the Book, and others ambiguous. As for those in whose hearts is swerving, they follow the ambiguous part, desiring dissension, and desiring its interpretation; and none knows its interpretation, save only God. And those firmly rooted in knowledge say, 'We believe in it; all is from our Lord'; yet none remembers, but men possessed of minds.]

I do have a question back for you, do you think it's possible that 9:36 has verses ambiguous referred to in 3:7, and that those who kept changing the months are those who were trying to follow the ambiguous part of the Qu'ran @hoskot?  Are the postponers the ones in 9:37 the same  in 3:7?  Perhaps the months were unspecified for a reason, that muslims just keep four months, or use four months and the test was that humans be consistent with them and not change them.

(I'm being funny here)  Or maybe Allah doesn't want to tell us the four months, to keep us on our toes to never wrong anyone, just in case it is one of the four months! (lol)

I have a lot to think about here man.  Great point; Thanks for this!

the jews and the mushrikeen during its' revelation certainly knew these 12 months and the 4 sacred months. but were they on the right religion? it then dawned upon me, there's more to it than what is apparent.

since i believe, "none knows its interpretation except Allah and those deeply rooted in knowledge" [Quran 3:7], i just need to find out:-

1. who are "those deeply rooted in knowledge" and

2. what they say about it's interpretation. no need to crack my head on it, so to speak.

IMO, Quran and ulil-amri are inseparable.

4:83 ".....and if they had referred it to the Rasool and to those in authority among them,

those among them who can search out the Knowledge of it would have known it".

verse 9:36 is more like "enuf light" for those who seek the truth, to me. as for verse 9:37, i read somewhere, it's the pagan arabs who were the postponers.

u r welcome.

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6 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

To understand kallamallahu (Allah spoke) it is necessary to refer to verse 51 of al Shura:

"It is not to any mortal (man) that Allah should speak to him except by inspiration or through (from behind) a veil,"

Allah does not speak in the sense attributed to the created beings who use the mouth and the tongue to produce sound. The veil can be anything which can be caused to produce sound.
 

He gave noor (words) to Noor-e-Muhammad (peace & blessings of Allah be upon him & his pure progeny)

42:52

وَكَذَلِكَ أَوْحَيْنَا إِلَيْكَ رُوحًا مِّنْ أَمْرِنَا مَا كُنتَ تَدْرِي مَا الْكِتَابُ وَلَا الْإِيمَانُ وَلَكِن جَعَلْنَاهُ نُورًا نَّهْدِي بِهِ مَنْ نَّشَاء مِنْ عِبَادِنَا وَإِنَّكَ لَتَهْدِي إِلَى صِرَاطٍ مُّسْتَقِيمٍ

 

Yes, I understand 51 of al Ashura, it was referenced in my long essay, as well as the pasted content.

However Quran says Allah only spoke to Musa AS, by which was through the veil. 

Musa AS was the only one given this type of communication. 

below is the entire pasted response:

I apologize, I'll include the whole piece about the logic I was putting together below:

I'll begin with a question, how does one Obey Allah, does one speak to him personally?  If I'm not mistaken, we do agree that obeying Allah is to obey the message brought by the Messenger.

42:51-52

And it is not for any human being that Allah should speak to him except by revelation or from behind a partition or that He sends a messenger to reveal, by His permission, what He wills. Indeed, He is Most High and Wise.

*Yukalima, is typically understood to mean communicate/speak, though in it's actual form, it means "give word" This is fundamentally different from actual talking/saying things with a voice. Note this distinction**  Also note the ORDER these are in. 

---From the above, we understand there are 3 ways for Allah to converse with humans.  Revelation, from behind a veil/partition, or sends a messenger to reveal. ---------

And thus We have revealed to you an inspiration of Our command. You did not know what is the Book or [what is] faith, but We have made it a light by which We guide whom We will of Our servants. And indeed, [O Muhammad], you guide to a straight path -

--How did Allah according to Quran "give words"/communicate to Muhammad?

One thing that we know, from Qu'ran, is that Allah TALKED with Musa AS. --

4:163-164

We have revealed to thee as We revealed to Noah, and the Prophets after him, and We revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, Jesus and Job, Jonah and Aaron and Solomon, and We gave to David Psalms,

And (We sent) messengers We have mentioned to you before and messengers we have not mentioned to you; and to Musa, Allah addressed His Word, speaking (to him):

--Allah communicated to Musa AS by speaking directly to him?  Let's see.--

20:11-12, 17-18

So when he came to it, a voice was uttered: O Musa:

Surely I am your Lord, therefore put off your shoes; surely you are in the sacred valley, Tuwa,

-Allah is speaking in first person. No angel is saying this to Musa.--

And what is this in your right hand, O Musa?

He said: This is my staff: I recline on it and I beat the leaves with it to make them fall upon my sheep, and I have other uses for it.

--Allah, is literally talking with Musa AS.  In the first person.  As you may be familiar with the passages, Musa AS is out in the wilderness, doing whatever it is he was doing.  And Allah is having a Dialogue/conversation with Allah.  Look at that! No one in between them, Allah and Musa AS. ** This is PRIOR to Musa AS receiving Revelation ***

6:91

And they do not assign to Allah the attributes due to Him when they say: Allah has not revealed anything to a mortal. Say: Who revealed the Book which Musa brought, a light and a guidance to men, which you make into scattered writings which you show while you conceal much? And you were taught what you did not know, (neither) you nor your fathers. Say: Allah then leave them sporting in their vain discourses.

--Check 7:17 too,  Here Allah uses the word "wa7ee" for reveal/ed.  This tells us clearly, when Allah wants to send the Message, he "REVEALS", if he wants to have a conversation instead, He then has direct speech/talk/dialogue with voice. Which has naught to do with Revelation (which is why we don't see this conversation in the Torah one may argue).  Musa AS has both received direct dialogue and revelation from Allah.  This constitutes the 2nd method of communication from Allah  back in 42:51, which is Allah may communicate from behind a veil. 

So back to the question, How did revelation/Quran come to Muhammad SAW?  Was he ever in dialogue with Allah according to Qu'ran?

Here we discover that angels are Messengers too!--

 

22:75

Allah chooses messengers from among the angels and from among the men; surely Allah is Hearing, Seeing.

16:2

He sends down the angels with the inspiration by His commandment on whom He pleases of His servants, saying: Give the warning that there is no god but Me, therefore be careful (of your duty) to Me.

--QUESTION,  Should these angels who are sent down with revelation, be obeyed?  Better yet,  Would this apply when Allah says "OBEY Allah and OBEY THE MESSENGER?"--

16:101-102

And when We exchange a verse in the place of another verse and God knows very well what He is sending down -- they say, 'Thou art a mere forger!' Nay, but the most of them have no knowledge.

Say: 'The Holy Spirit sent it down from thy Lord in truth, and to confirm those who believe, and to be a guidance and good tidings to those who surrender.'

--Should This Holy Spirit be Obeyed?? Would that mean Obeying Allah??--

26:192-194

And most surely this is a revelation from the Lord of the worlds.

The Faithful Spirit has descended with it,

Upon your heart that you may be of the warners

--Should the faithful Spirit be obeyed?? and does this mean Obeying Allah alone?  Perhaps its Jabril (It is) This spirit is now a "Al Alameen, Spirit"  A trustworthy or faithful spirit.  Now it seems to me, it's all one obedience.--

Quran 2:92

Say: Whoever is the enemy of Jibreel-- for surely he revealed it to your heart by Allah's command, verifying that which is before it and guidance and good news for the believers.

---Jabril revealed it but by Allah's command; he did not act independently --- WHO should be obeyed?--

Quran 81:19-21

Most surely it is the Word of an honored messenger, (You're hearing SPEECH  check Arabic word used here, Gods words , given to Jabril and speaking to Muhammad SAW)

who is honored in the presence of the Lord of the Throne,

One (to be) obeyed, and faithful in trust.

4:64

And We did not send any messenger but that he shouldbe obeyed by Allah's permission; and had they, when they were unjust to themselves, come to you and asked forgiveness of Allah and the Messenger had (also) asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah Oft-returning (to mercy), Merciful.

4:80

Whoever obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys Allah, and whoever turns back, so We have not sent you as a keeper over them.

--JABRIL WAS A MESSENGER,  MUHAMMAD SAW OBEYED HIM.  These entities are messengers/transmitters, like typing in an online messenger, or email.  Send it, then forward it, obey and transmit.  No Messenger is sent except they obeyed Allah. We KNOW Jibril revealed to Muhammad the message/book. 

 

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20 hours ago, just a muslim said:

1. i already said let's assume for the sake of simplicity that i dont believe in sunni hadith either.

2. i gave you hadith that mentioned the fast of daud a.s. being the best, which was the every other day fasting. then i gave you a list of articles telling how and why the every other day fasting was the best. my point was not to say that voluntary fasts are a sunnah, and fasting is beneficial scientifically. hence the hadith must be true. my point was, fasting e.o.d(every other day) is the best fasting according to hadith and science has proved it now. 

3. this is not the only reason. and i hope you understand this part of my "criteria" now as mentioned in point 2 above. and i understand that you dont find it a "good" reason, but i think that was because you misunderstood me point. which i explained in point 2.

4. if you could provide an equally "ungood" reason for me to believe in shia hadith, i could consider the shia literature.

having said all that above, my reason for believing the sunni hadith is not entirely the explicit authenticity of hadith. my reason for believing in sunni hadith is because i believe the sunni rijal books. and my reason for believing the sunni rijal books is that if i dont, then the quran which has been transmitted to us and we have today, i will have no reason to trust it. and i want to trust the quran and dont want to be a kafir/disbeliever, which obv non of us wants. this is because the quran has been transmitted by people who according to sunni rijal books are authentic, while according to shia rijal books are unknown, generally speaking.

i only explained everything above for the sake of explanation, not to get a response. because as i said, you can assume that i dont believe in sunni rijal or books or hadith. that i only believe in the quran. the question i asked initially was why YOU believe in SHIA hadith. do you have ANY logical reason for believing the shia narrators and hence shia hadith?

That is what I have been saying all along. Your issue is the shia vs sunni ilm-ur-rijal rather than anything else. 10 pages for what I already told you. Arrrrggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

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3 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

That is what I have been saying all along. Your issue is the shia vs sunni ilm-ur-rijal rather than anything else. 10 pages for what I already told you. Arrrrggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

i said this quite a while ago if i am not mistaken. 

so, what reason do you have for believing the shia rijal books? why do you trust them?

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13 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

However Quran says Allah only spoke to Musa AS, by which was through the veil. 

Musa AS was the only one given this type of communication. 

Have you considered Adam? How Allah communicated with him while he was up there between angels? How Allah taught him the names? How Allah communicated with him in Jannah, commanding him not to go near a tree?

The ahadith mentions that Allah spoke with Adam too.  
Allah has also spoken to Prophet Muhammad (peace & blessing of Allah be upon him & his pure progeny) during his Journey of Isra (mairaj).  

And Quran also mentions that in verse 2:253,

تِلْكَ الرُّسُلُ فَضَّلْنَا بَعْضَهُمْ عَلَى بَعْضٍ مِّنْهُم مَّن كَلَّمَ اللّهُ وَرَفَعَ بَعْضَهُمْ دَرَجَاتٍ
"We have made some of these apostles to excel the others among them are THEY TO WHOM Allah SPOKE, and some of them He exalted by (many degrees of) rank"

Abu Tharr may  Allaah  be  pleased  with  him said that he asked the Prophet sallallaahu  `alayhi  wa  sallam ( may  Allaah exalt his mention ) about our father Aadam: “Was he a Prophet, O Prophet of Allaah?” Thereupon, the Prophet sallallaahu  `alayhi  wa  sallam ( may  Allaah exalt his mention ) replied: “Yes, he was a Prophet to whom Allaah spoke (directly).” [Ahmad]

13 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

Allah, is literally talking with Musa AS.  In the first person.  As you may be familiar with the passages, Musa AS is out in the wilderness, doing whatever it is he was doing.  And Allah is having a Dialogue/conversation with Allah.  Look at that! No one in between them, Allah and Musa AS. ** This is PRIOR to Musa AS receiving Revelation ***

This is again validating my argument of "Ismah". You can also check that revelation was sent toward the mother of Musa (a.s),
28:7 mentions that Allah has sent revelation to Musa's mother immediate after his birth.
 وَأَوْحَيْنَا إِلَى أُمِّ مُوسَى

 

13 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

--QUESTION,  Should these angels who are sent down with revelation, be obeyed?  Better yet,  Would this apply when Allah says "OBEY Allah and OBEY THE MESSENGER?"--

When revelation itself commanding that Obey the messenger (Prophet Muhammad), why you are doubting on this clear command? The revelation itself also says that "Your companion does not err, nor does he go astray; nor does he speak out of desire" (53:2-3). 


 

Edited by Salsabeel

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14 hours ago, just a muslim said:

i said this quite a while ago if i am not mistaken. 

so, what reason do you have for believing the shia rijal books? why do you trust them?

exact reason you trust Sunni rijal books.

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8 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

Have you considered Adam? How Allah communicated with him while he was up there between angels? How Allah taught him the names? How Allah communicated with him in Jannah, commanding him not to go near a tree?

The ahadith mentions that Allah spoke with Adam too.  
Allah has also spoken to Prophet Muhammad (peace & blessing of Allah be upon him & his pure progeny) during his Journey of Isra (mairaj).  

And Quran also mentions that in verse 2:253,

تِلْكَ الرُّسُلُ فَضَّلْنَا بَعْضَهُمْ عَلَى بَعْضٍ مِّنْهُم مَّن كَلَّمَ اللّهُ وَرَفَعَ بَعْضَهُمْ دَرَجَاتٍ
"We have made some of these apostles to excel the others among them are THEY TO WHOM Allah SPOKE, and some of them He exalted by (many degrees of) rank"

Abu Tharr may  Allaah  be  pleased  with  him said that he asked the Prophet sallallaahu  `alayhi  wa  sallam ( may  Allaah exalt his mention ) about our father Aadam: “Was he a Prophet, O Prophet of Allaah?” Thereupon, the Prophet sallallaahu  `alayhi  wa  sallam ( may  Allaah exalt his mention ) replied: “Yes, he was a Prophet to whom Allaah spoke (directly).” [Ahmad]

This is again validating my argument of "Ismah". You can also check that revelation was sent toward the mother of Musa (a.s),
28:7 mentions that Allah has sent revelation to Musa's mother immediate after his birth.
 وَأَوْحَيْنَا إِلَى أُمِّ مُوسَى

 

When revelation itself commanding that Obey the messenger (Prophet Muhammad), why you are doubting on this clear command? The revelation itself also says that "Your companion does not err, nor does he go astray; nor does he speak out of desire" (53:2-3). 


 

Yet another valid point!

2:31 and 2:32 and 2:33 directly imply Allah directly communicated/interacted with Adam AS in first person.  Though I have not yet found that Allah revealed to Adam AS a book ,per se, which is intriguing.  The verses I've alluded to before, it Seems  4:163-164-  says revelation of written book(s) were provided on and after Prophet Nuh AS.

Hadith aside,  2:253 proves Prophet's other than Musa AS were spoken too, however it does not mean Allah directly communicated with Muhammad SAW, at least other than what we've reviewed here, I'm going to try and search for supporting Quran verses of this.

2:252-253 if anything, Allah is revealing through Jibril to Muhammad that he is from the messengers, and describes to him that some of the messengers this -->"Those messengers, some of them We caused to exceed others. Among them were those to whom Allah spoke, and He raised some of them in degree. And We gave Jesus, the Son of Mary, clear proofs, and We supported him with the Pure Spirit. If Allah had willed, those [generations] succeeding them would not have fought each other after the clear proofs had come to them. But they differed, and some of them believed and some of them disbelieved. And if Allah had willed, they would not have fought each other, but Allah does what He intends."

I think this is very interesting.   Some messengers we caused to exceed, and from among those messengers Allah spoke and raised some in degree.   My understanding? 

1) some messengers exceeded, 

2)the ones who exceeded He spoke 

3) from some of the ones he spoke to, some were raised in degree (I'm thinking King Davud/AS or Sulieiman AS  who were kings and that Allah directly taught per Quran, they had ranks higher than other prophet's in life that were not Kings/Sovereigns of people, Adam AS as he is the first/authority who angels bowed to)

4) It seems even with Jesus ibn Mariam AS and Muhammad SAW, the people differed/ fought each other.

28:7 Musa's AS mother  was inspired/reveled by "we" according to the verse, no direct communication as you and I have already studied that there are 3 types, it seems an Angel sent revelation.

 

As for Obey Allah and the Messenger,  the commands are clear.   Quran says Angels and men are messengers,  Allah gives message to Jibril to give to Muhammad SAW which is obeyed by Muhammad, and Muhammad gives us the revelation/message which we should obey.

Are you disagreeing with what I'm saying above?

 

 

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1 hour ago, shiaman14 said:

exact reason you trust Sunni rijal books.

the quran was transmitted to us by certain people. my reason for believing sunni rijal books is that those are the only books that tell me who the transmitters of the quran are. i.e. the sanad of the quran can only be authenticated using the sunni rijal books. 

is this applicable to shia rijal books? 

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On 10/28/2017 at 10:16 PM, aqeel321 said:

Of course you have no problem saying this is false, when it is not, because in your school, you freestyle (for the lack of a better phrase) as you go.  Precisely why the majority of the ummah do not take you seriously.  You may not have sahih books now, the original opinion towards Al-Kafi, however, was far removed from what is being said today.

To return to the topic, passing by this website a few years ago, I noticed a knowledgeable brother say the following regarding this very narration that "by the standard of 90-95% of scholars this would be classed as saheeh".  However, he too had to preface it by saying that the hadith is weak according to him. 

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235001541-imam-bukhari-is-actually-mentioned-in-the-bukhari/

How can there be sincere discussions with such insincerity?  And that undermines your scholarship because a layman and a student of knowledge can put their opinions ahead of those they take their religion from.

Clearly you didnt read the entire thread. They specifically mention the chain is broken. You can go on believing that a stone stole Prophet Musa's clothes and he beat it up. I chose to respect Prophet Musa. But then again, if the sahaba can openly insult the Prophet (saw), why can't Abu Huraira mock Prophet Musa (as).

 

 

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6 minutes ago, just a muslim said:

the quran was transmitted to us by certain people. my reason for believing sunni rijal books is that those are the only books that tell me who the transmitters of the quran are. i.e. the sanad of the quran can only be authenticated using the sunni rijal books. 

is this applicable to shia rijal books? 

The Quran needs sanad?

Our sanad is the Imams after the Prophet (saw) who recited the same Quran as we have today. Good enough for them, therefore good enough for me.

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1 hour ago, wmehar2 said:

Allah gives message to Jibril to give to Muhammad SAW which is obeyed by Muhammad, and Muhammad gives us the revelation/message which we should obey.

Are you disagreeing with what I'm saying above?

Yes, I disagree.

We are commanded by Allah to obey Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). In the battle of Uhud, prophet deputed a company of 50 men on a mountain, to guard/take care that enemy would not attack from that place.

The company when saw that Muslims are winning, disobeyed the command of Prophet & left their place to collect booty. What happened then, you can read the history. 

Quran mentions that battle in chapter 3, I am just quoting two verses from there:

Surah Aal-e-Imran, Verse 152:

وَلَقَدْ صَدَقَكُمُ اللَّهُ وَعْدَهُ إِذْ تَحُسُّونَهُم بِإِذْنِهِ حَتَّىٰ إِذَا فَشِلْتُمْ وَتَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي الْأَمْرِ وَعَصَيْتُم مِّن بَعْدِ مَا أَرَاكُم مَّا تُحِبُّونَ مِنكُم مَّن يُرِيدُ الدُّنْيَا وَمِنكُم مَّن يُرِيدُ الْآخِرَةَ ثُمَّ صَرَفَكُمْ عَنْهُمْ لِيَبْتَلِيَكُمْ وَلَقَدْ عَفَا عَنكُمْ وَاللَّهُ ذُو فَضْلٍ عَلَى الْمُؤْمِنِينَ

And certainly Allah made good to you His promise when you slew them by His permission, until when you became weak-hearted and disputed about the affair and disobeyed after He had shown you that which you loved; of you were some who desired this world and of you were some who desired the hereafter; then He turned you away from them that He might try you; and He has certainly pardoned you, and Allah is Gracious to the believers.

(English - Shakir)

The disobediance to the command of Prophet has been treated as disobediance to Allah.

Surah Aal-e-Imran, Verse 159:

فَبِمَا رَحْمَةٍ مِّنَ اللَّهِ لِنتَ لَهُمْ وَلَوْ كُنتَ فَظًّا غَلِيظَ الْقَلْبِ لَانفَضُّوا مِنْ حَوْلِكَ فَاعْفُ عَنْهُمْ وَاسْتَغْفِرْ لَهُمْ وَشَاوِرْهُمْ فِي الْأَمْرِ فَإِذَا عَزَمْتَ فَتَوَكَّلْ عَلَى اللَّهِ إِنَّ اللَّهَ يُحِبُّ الْمُتَوَكِّلِينَ

Thus it is due to mercy from Allah that you deal with them gently, and had you been rough, hard hearted, they would certainly have dispersed from around you; pardon them therefore and ask pardon for them, and take counsel with them in the affair; so when you have decided, then place your trust in Allah; surely Allah loves those who trust.

(English - Shakir)

You cannot interpret the verses of Quran like you are trying to do. You have to look into the history as well as ahadith of Masomeen (asws). 

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2 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

Allah gives message to Jibril to give to Muhammad SAW which is obeyed by Muhammad, and Muhammad gives us the revelation/message which we should obey.

Are you disagreeing with what I'm saying above?

Note: I am stressing on obeying Prophet, we have to obey the commands of Allah & among His commands is this:

Surah Aal-e-Imran, Verse 132:

وَأَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَالرَّسُولَ لَعَلَّكُمْ تُرْحَمُونَ

And obey Allah and the Apostle, that you may be shown mercy.

(English - Shakir)

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