question again

**Gaius I. Caesar** · October 30, 2017

1 minute ago, wmehar2 said:

@Gaius I. Caesar

I'm so sorry, I apologize. I must have made mistake when compiling that long response.

34:50

If I err, I err only against my own soul, and if I follow a right direction, it is because of what my Lord reveals to me; surely He is Hearing, Nigh.

Ah ok, shukran.

Read this 34:47-53, what are your thoughts?

Urwatul Wuthqa · October 30, 2017

13 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

34:50

If I err, I err only against my own soul, and if I follow a right direction, it is because of what my Lord reveals to me; surely He is Hearing, Nigh.

This is in reply to verse 43. It does not mean that the Holy Prophet ever erred, because Quran expressively says in Najm: 2 to 4: "Errs not your companion, nor is he led astray, nor he speaks of (his own) desire. It is naught but a revelation revealed (unto him)." It means the prophet was infallible. In several other places the Quran asserts that the Holy Prophet only followed the divine revelation under every circumstance.

Surah Al-Anaam, Verse 161:

قُلْ إِنَّنِي هَدَانِي رَبِّي إِلَىٰ صِرَاطٍ مُّسْتَقِيمٍ دِينًا قِيَمًا مِّلَّةَ إِبْرَاهِيمَ حَنِيفًا وَمَا كَانَ مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ

Say: Surely, (as for) me, my Lord has guided me to the right path; (to) a most right religion, the faith of Ibrahim the upright one, and he was not of the polytheists.

(English - Shakir)

Surah Al-Anaam, Verse 162:

قُلْ إِنَّ صَلَاتِي وَنُسُكِي وَمَحْيَايَ وَمَمَاتِي لِلَّهِ رَبِّ الْعَالَمِينَ

Say. Surely my prayer and my sacrifice and my life and my death are (all) for Allah, the Lord of the worlds;

(English - Shakir)

His every action/deed was for lillahe Rabbul Aalameen.

wmehar2 · October 30, 2017

54 minutes ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

Ah ok, shukran.

Read this 34:47-53, what are your thoughts?

I'll start from 34:45 then to 53 if that's okay

Those that were before them also cried lies, yet they reached not a tenth of what We gave them; they cried lies to My Messengers, and how was My horror!

45--Say (Muhammad): 'I give you but one admonition, that you stand unto God, two by two and one by one, and then reflect: no madness is in your comrade. He is naught but a warner unto you, before a terrible chastisement.'

Say: 'I have asked no wage of you; that shall be yours. My wage falls only upon God; and He is witness over everything.'

Say: 'My Lord hurls the truth -- the Knower of the Unseen.'

Say. 'Truth has come; falsehood originates not, nor brings again.'

Say: 'If I go astray, I go astray only to my own loss; if I am guided, it is by what my Lord reveals to me. He is All-hearing, Ever-nigh.'

Ah, if thou couldst see when they are terrified, and there is no escape, and they are seized from a place near at hand,

and they say, 'We believe in it'; but how can they reach from a place far away,

53--seeing they disbelieved in it before, guessing at the Unseen from a place far away?

At first glance I see Allah is addressing Muhammad SAW. It also appears Allah is describing the Unseen of when it was too late for the disbelievers, claiming they believe in the message, but it was too late for their words to matter/reach. The beginning part of these passages referred to prior people whom God's message was being delivered to, they barely received 1/10th of the message and doubted/accused the messengers of the past of revealing lies. In response, God commands Muhammad to say, that Muhammad isn't asking personal wage, for Allah is who rewards, who knows the truth of the Unseen, and that he is Truth, where no falsehoods originate nor can be brought in place of truth. And then for Muhammad to tell them if he's gone astray, it is because of his own personal loss, but if he is guided, it is because of what Allah reveals.

Edited October 30, 2017 by wmehar2
grammar

wmehar2 · October 30, 2017

3 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

This is in reply to verse 43. It does not mean that the Holy Prophet ever erred, because Quran expressively says in Najm: 2 to 4: "Errs not your companion, nor is he led astray, nor he speaks of (his own) desire. It is naught but a revelation revealed (unto him)." It means the prophet was infallible. In several other places the Quran asserts that the Holy Prophet only followed the divine revelation under every circumstance.

Surah Al-Anaam, Verse 161:

قُلْ إِنَّنِي هَدَانِي رَبِّي إِلَىٰ صِرَاطٍ مُّسْتَقِيمٍ دِينًا قِيَمًا مِّلَّةَ إِبْرَاهِيمَ حَنِيفًا وَمَا كَانَ مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ

Say: Surely, (as for) me, my Lord has guided me to the right path; (to) a most right religion, the faith of Ibrahim the upright one, and he was not of the polytheists.

(English - Shakir)

Surah Al-Anaam, Verse 162:

قُلْ إِنَّ صَلَاتِي وَنُسُكِي وَمَحْيَايَ وَمَمَاتِي لِلَّهِ رَبِّ الْعَالَمِينَ

Say. Surely my prayer and my sacrifice and my life and my death are (all) for Allah, the Lord of the worlds;

(English - Shakir)

His every action/deed was for lillahe Rabbul Aalameen.

I'm not sure if you see the circle. If the Messenger does not speak from his own desire, then what does it matter if he is personally infallible or not, if he is not in control or using his desire? If Allah took control of some other person's voice and limbs, then they become too infallible in whatever Allah does through them. Allah guided Muhammad to right path, as in 161 of Anaam, You're supporting my and @Gaius I. Caesar point that Muhammad's character and intentions can be argued as infallible in term of virtue and what he wished. Everything Muhammad did intentionally was for Allah's sake.

But it doesn't extend to execution of his daily life, activities outside of delivering the message.

9:43

God pardon thee (Muhammad)! Why gavest thou them leave, till it was clear to thee which of them spoke the truth, and thou knewest the liars?

Did Muhammad err before Quran? Ignoring Basharun mithlukum and its meaning discussion, below it says Muhammad had to be revealed the fact that there was no God but One God, was Muhammad in error before revelation? Or is he blameless for his mistaken belief because he was unknowing of the Oneness of Allah? Intention wise Muhammad is still infallible arguably in this case, but as a mistake prone human, he is not infallible.

18:110

Say: 'I am only a mortal the like of you; it is revealed to me that your God is One God. So let him, who hopes for the encounter with his Lord, work righteousness, and not associate with his Lord's service anyone.

[Say], "Then is it other than Allah I should seek as judge while it is He who has revealed to you the Book explained in detail?" And those to whom We [previously] gave the Scripture know that it is sent down from your Lord in truth, so never be among the doubters. 6:114

**Gaius I. Caesar** · October 30, 2017

24 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

was Muhammad in error before revelation? Or is he blameless for his mistaken belief because he was unknowing of the Oneness of Allah?

No, he may have had pagan relatives but there is no proof that he was ever a pagan or idol worshipper long before the revelation of the Quran. I don't know where you get this idea from.

wmehar2 · October 30, 2017

15 minutes ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

No, he may have had pagan relatives but there is no proof that he was ever a pagan or idol worshipper long before the revelation of the Quran. I don't know where you get this idea from.

I'm not insinuating whether he was a polytheist or not, I'm driving the point that it was not until it was revealed to Muhammad that god is one, that he knew God was one.

To Muhammad he may have suspected but never known or just never cared to believe in idols, whatever the truth may be, it stands in Quran Allah revealed to Muhammad and messengers before him that He is one.

That Allah guided Muhammad, and Muhammad on his own was lacking and insubstantial.

Quran 93:6-8

Did He not find you an orphan and give you shelter?

And find you lost (that is, unrecognized by men) and guide (them to you)?

And find you in want and make you to be free from want?

and:

Quran 10:35-36

Say: Is there any of your associates who guides to the truth? Say: Allah guides to the truth. Is He then Who guides to the truth more worthy to be followed, or he who himself does not go aright unless he is guided? What then is the matter with you; how do you judge?

Muhammad constitutes the latter, he who himself is not aright until he is guided. So follow Allah, by following the messenger/obeying the message only <-

Urwatul Wuthqa · October 30, 2017

2 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

But it doesn't extend to execution of his daily life, activities outside of delivering the message.

9:43

God pardon thee (Muhammad)! Why gavest thou them leave, till it was clear to thee which of them spoke the truth, and thou knewest the liars?

Did Muhammad err before Quran? Ignoring Basharun mithlukum and its meaning discussion, below it says Muhammad had to be revealed the fact that there was no God but One God, was Muhammad in error before revelation? Or is he blameless for his mistaken belief because he was unknowing of the Oneness of Allah? Intention wise Muhammad is still infallible arguably in this case, but as a mistake prone human, he is not infallible.

18:110

Say: 'I am only a mortal the like of you; it is revealed to me that your God is One God. So let him, who hopes for the encounter with his Lord, work righteousness, and not associate with his Lord's service anyone.

[Say], "Then is it other than Allah I should seek as judge while it is He who has revealed to you the Book explained in detail?" And those to whom We [previously] gave the Scripture know that it is sent down from your Lord in truth, so never be among the doubters. 6:114

Do you think he remain absent from the sight of Allah in the matters related to his daily life or in activities outside of delivering the

message?

فَاسْتَقِمْ كَمَا أُمِرْتَ وَمَن تَابَ مَعَكَ وَلاَ تَطْغَوْاْ إِنَّهُ بِمَا تَعْمَلُونَ بَصِيرٌ
11:112 Continue then in the right way as you are commanded, as also he who has turned (to Allah) with you, and be not inordinate (O men!), surely He sees what you do.

As for 9:43, Like verse 2 of Fat-h, the companions are addressed here through the Holy Prophet. The manner, mode and trend of expression is the same as in verse 1 of Tahrim or verse 68 of Anfal. The Holy Prophet had the option of giving permission (Nur: 62), and there was no prohibitory order prior to his action. He did not want to expose the hypocrites on his own, unless Allah condemns them as He does here and in other places. So what you are doing is trying your best to produce contradictions in the verses of Quran.

Quote: "but as a mistake prone human, he is not infallible"

(15:39-42)

قَالَ رَبِّ بِمَا أَغْوَيْتَنِي لَأُزَيِّنَنَّ لَهُمْ فِي الْأَرْضِ وَلَأُغْوِيَنَّهُمْ أَجْمَعِينَ
إِلَّا عِبَادَكَ مِنْهُمُ الْمُخْلَصِينَ
قَالَ هَٰذَا صِرَاطٌ عَلَيَّ مُسْتَقِيمٌ
إِنَّ عِبَادِي لَيْسَ لَكَ عَلَيْهِمْ سُلْطَانٌ إِلَّا مَنِ اتَّبَعَكَ مِنَ الْغَاوِينَ

The Holy Prophet and his Ahl ul Bayt are the mukhlisin. Though they were sent in this world in the progeny of Adam, they are altogether a separate class of beings created of light and endowed with special divine attributes, therefore the other children of Adam, whom he deceives without effort, cannot be compared to them. From cradle to grave the mukhlisin remained free from every kind of sin, pollution or shortcomings. They were the perfect models of godliness who always manifested divine attributes for the guidance of mankind in every age (see an-amta alayhim in al Fatihah: 7). Being the thoroughly purified souls, free from any evil influence, they were beyond the reach of devilish allurements. When a soul attains such excellence Allah takes it under His mercy and grace which protect it under all circumstances.

The word "Ghaveen" in 15:42 can explain you the extension of the word "Ghava" mentioned in 53:2,

مَا ضَلَّ صَاحِبُكُمْ وَمَا غَوَى

Now 6:114:

فَلَا تَكُونَنَّ مِنَ الْمُمْتَرِينَ

Do you think Prophet (pbuh) ever doubted on Allah or on any of His command? Fact is that the people are warned here not to be among those who doubt. And the question mentioned in the start of the verse (Shall I then seek a judge other than Allah?) explains that it is the people who were addressed not the Prophet.

**Gaius I. Caesar** · October 30, 2017

2 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

To Muhammad he may have suspected but never known or just never cared to believe in idols, whatever the truth may be, it stands in Quran Allah revealed to Muhammad and messengers before him that He is one.

That Allah guided Muhammad, and Muhammad on his own was lacking and insubstantial.

That I agree with you and I know that you are not implying that he was a pagan or idol worshipper. However, the Shia perspective and mine is that he was born to monotheists (hanifs) and he was considered "unusual" and " different " from a young age by those who knew or met him.

On his own, he was not what Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى intended for him to be before He revealed the Quran to Muhammad (saws) but he was already a monotheist. His role was preordained from the beginning, long before the revelation...

MohammadAli1993 · October 30, 2017

1 hour ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

That I agree with you and I know that you are not implying that he was a pagan or idol worshipper. However, the Shia perspective and mine is that he was born to monotheists (hanifs) and he was considered "unusual" and " different " from a young age by those who knew or met him.

On his own, he was not what Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى intended for him to be before He revealed the Quran to Muhammad (saws) but he was already a monotheist. His role was preordained from the beginning, long before the revelation...

Muhammad was Muhammad before the Quran and after the Quran. Peace and blessings be upon him and his beloved and blessed AhlulBayt.

S.M.H.A. · October 30, 2017

وَأَوْحَيْنَا إِلَىٰ أُمِّ مُوسَىٰ أَنْ أَرْضِعِيهِ ۖ فَإِذَا خِفْتِ عَلَيْهِ فَأَلْقِيهِ فِي الْيَمِّ وَلَا تَخَافِي وَلَا تَحْزَنِي ۖ إِنَّا رَادُّوهُ إِلَيْكِ وَجَاعِلُوهُ مِنَ الْمُرْسَلِينَ {7}

[Pickthal 28:7] And We inspired the mother of Moses, saying: Suckle him and, when thou fearest for him, then cast him into the river and fear not nor grieve. Lo! We shall bring him back unto thee and shall make him (one) of Our messengers.

*****

إِذْ قَالَ يُوسُفُ لِأَبِيهِ يَا أَبَتِ إِنِّي رَأَيْتُ أَحَدَ عَشَرَ كَوْكَبًا وَالشَّمْسَ وَالْقَمَرَ رَأَيْتُهُمْ لِي سَاجِدِينَ 4}

[Pickthal 12:4] When Joseph said unto his father: O my father! Lo! I saw in a dream eleven planets and the sun and the moon, I saw them prostrating themselves unto me.

*****

يَا زَكَرِيَّا إِنَّا نُبَشِّرُكَ بِغُلَامٍ اسْمُهُ يَحْيَىٰ لَمْ نَجْعَلْ لَهُ مِنْ قَبْلُ سَمِيًّا {7}

[Pickthal 19:7] (It was said unto him): O Zachariah! Lo! We bring thee tidings of a son whose name is John; we have given the same name to none before (him).

يَا يَحْيَىٰ خُذِ الْكِتَابَ بِقُوَّةٍ ۖ وَآتَيْنَاهُ الْحُكْمَ صَبِيًّا {12}

[Pickthal 19:12] (And it was said unto his son): O John! Hold fast the Scripture. And we gave him wisdom when a child,

وَحَنَانًا مِنْ لَدُنَّا وَزَكَاةً ۖ وَكَانَ تَقِيًّا {13}

[Pickthal 19:13] And compassion from Our presence, and purity; and he was devout,

وَبَرًّا بِوَالِدَيْهِ وَلَمْ يَكُنْ جَبَّارًا عَصِيًّا {14}

[Pickthal 19:14] And dutiful toward his parents. And he was not arrogant, rebellious.

وَسَلَامٌ عَلَيْهِ يَوْمَ وُلِدَ وَيَوْمَ يَمُوتُ وَيَوْمَ يُبْعَثُ حَيًّا {15}

[Pickthal 19:15] Peace on him the day he was born, and the day he dieth and the day he shall be raised alive!

*****

قَالَ إِنَّمَا أَنَا رَسُولُ رَبِّكِ لِأَهَبَ لَكِ غُلَامًا زَكِيًّا {19}

[Pickthal 19:19] He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.

فَأَشَارَتْ إِلَيْهِ ۖ قَالُوا كَيْفَ نُكَلِّمُ مَنْ كَانَ فِي الْمَهْدِ صَبِيًّا {29}

[Pickthal 19:29] Then she pointed to him. They said: How can we talk to one who is in the cradle, a young boy?

قَالَ إِنِّي عَبْدُ اللَّهِ آتَانِيَ الْكِتَابَ وَجَعَلَنِي نَبِيًّا {30}

[Pickthal 19:30] He spake: Lo! I am the slave of Allah. He hath given me the Scripture and hath appointed me a Prophet,

وَجَعَلَنِي مُبَارَكًا أَيْنَ مَا كُنْتُ وَأَوْصَانِي بِالصَّلَاةِ وَالزَّكَاةِ مَا دُمْتُ حَيًّا {31}

[Pickthal 19:31] And hath made me blessed wheresoever I may be, and hath enjoined upon me prayer and almsgiving so long as I remain alive,

wmehar2 · October 30, 2017

9 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

Do you think he remain absent from the sight of Allah in the matters related to his daily life or in activities outside of delivering the

message?

فَاسْتَقِمْ كَمَا أُمِرْتَ وَمَن تَابَ مَعَكَ وَلاَ تَطْغَوْاْ إِنَّهُ بِمَا تَعْمَلُونَ بَصِيرٌ
11:112 Continue then in the right way as you are commanded, as also he who has turned (to Allah) with you, and be not inordinate (O men!), surely He sees what you do.

As for 9:43, Like verse 2 of Fat-h, the companions are addressed here through the Holy Prophet. The manner, mode and trend of expression is the same as in verse 1 of Tahrim or verse 68 of Anfal. The Holy Prophet had the option of giving permission (Nur: 62), and there was no prohibitory order prior to his action. He did not want to expose the hypocrites on his own, unless Allah condemns them as He does here and in other places. So what you are doing is trying your best to produce contradictions in the verses of Quran.

Quote: "but as a mistake prone human, he is not infallible"

(15:39-42)

قَالَ رَبِّ بِمَا أَغْوَيْتَنِي لَأُزَيِّنَنَّ لَهُمْ فِي الْأَرْضِ وَلَأُغْوِيَنَّهُمْ أَجْمَعِينَ
إِلَّا عِبَادَكَ مِنْهُمُ الْمُخْلَصِينَ
قَالَ هَٰذَا صِرَاطٌ عَلَيَّ مُسْتَقِيمٌ
إِنَّ عِبَادِي لَيْسَ لَكَ عَلَيْهِمْ سُلْطَانٌ إِلَّا مَنِ اتَّبَعَكَ مِنَ الْغَاوِينَ

The Holy Prophet and his Ahl ul Bayt are the mukhlisin. Though they were sent in this world in the progeny of Adam, they are altogether a separate class of beings created of light and endowed with special divine attributes, therefore the other children of Adam, whom he deceives without effort, cannot be compared to them. From cradle to grave the mukhlisin remained free from every kind of sin, pollution or shortcomings. They were the perfect models of godliness who always manifested divine attributes for the guidance of mankind in every age (see an-amta alayhim in al Fatihah: 7). Being the thoroughly purified souls, free from any evil influence, they were beyond the reach of devilish allurements. When a soul attains such excellence Allah takes it under His mercy and grace which protect it under all circumstances.

The word "Ghaveen" in 15:42 can explain you the extension of the word "Ghava" mentioned in 53:2,

مَا ضَلَّ صَاحِبُكُمْ وَمَا غَوَى

Now 6:114:

فَلَا تَكُونَنَّ مِنَ الْمُمْتَرِينَ

Do you think Prophet (pbuh) ever doubted on Allah or on any of His command? Fact is that the people are warned here not to be among those who doubt. And the question mentioned in the start of the verse (Shall I then seek a judge other than Allah?) explains that it is the people who were addressed not the Prophet.

From how I read these verses and your argument, I disagree.

I do not say they are absent in sight of Allah. I say Muhammad is a person like you and me, according to Quran, albeit a special person, but a person.

Also, when Allah addresses or refers to his servants, he's referring to all muslims in submission and obedience to him. Not just messengers, prophets, and Ahlul Bayt, AS on them all.

25:63

And the servants of the Most Merciful are those who walk upon the earth easily, and when the ignorant address them [harshly], they say [words of] peace

In response to your 15:39-42, mistakes prone does not mean sin/shaytaan prone necessarily. At least from my perspective.

In regards to revealing Quran and reciting the message of Allah, there is no fallibilty on Muhammad, I also cant speak to Muhammad as I only know what Quran tells me of him.

Quran tells us Isa ibn Mariam AS is a servant and Muhammad SAW is a servant.

39:53

Say, "O My servants who have transgressed against themselves [by sinning], do not despair of the mercy of Allah . Indeed, Allah forgives all sins. Indeed, it is He who is the Forgiving, the Merciful."

Muhammad and Isa ibn Mariam, and Ahlul Bayt, are included in the above and muslims who submit to Allah.

9:104

Do they not know that it is Allah who accepts repentance from His servants and receives charities and that it is Allah who is the Accepting of repentance, the Merciful?

Add 39:10 as well.

I don't see mukhlisin argument for the Prophet Muhammad and his Ahlul Bayt.

Allah commands Muhammad to tell us in Quran that he is not special among any other messengers, including Adam AS, This idea of mukhlisin you're introducing brings contradiction , because yes they are comparable beings according to quran.

46:9

Say: 'I am not an innovation among the Messengers, and I know not what shall be done with me or with you. I only follow what is revealed to me; I am only a clear warner.'

This verse deconstructs your argument.

It seems the idea of mukhlisin and these infallible beings of light being made before Adam AS and all that, are being forced/brought into the religion that just doesn't fit in Quran.

human beings include muhammad, angels are light.

Verily We created man from a product of wet earth; then placed him as a drop (of seed) in a safe lodging; then We fashioned the drop into a clot, then We fashioned the clot into a little lump, then We fashioned the little lump into bones, then clothed the bones with flesh, and then produced it another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of Creators!” [23:12-14]

18:110 and other verses Allah tells Muhammad to tell us he is a man. A man.

Men are made the same as every other man.

Muhammad and Ahlul Bayt are not light, this is clear contradiction.

QED.

Edited October 30, 2017 by wmehar2

S.M.H.A. · October 30, 2017

"The Infallibility of the Last Prophet (The Prophet of Islam)"

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235049289-imams-and-infallibility/?page=17&tab=comments#comment-3059985

*****

قَالَ مَا مَنَعَكَ أَلَّا تَسْجُدَ إِذْ أَمَرْتُكَ ۖ قَالَ أَنَا خَيْرٌ مِنْهُ خَلَقْتَنِي مِنْ نَارٍ وَخَلَقْتَهُ مِنْ طِينٍ {12}

[Pickthal 7:12] He said: What hindered thee that thou didst not fall prostrate when I bade thee? (Iblis) said: I am better than him. Thou createdst me of fire while him Thou didst create of mud.

S.M.H.A. · October 30, 2017

19 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

Muhammad and Ahlul Bayt are not light, this is clear contradiction.

اللَّهُ نُورُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ ۚ مَثَلُ نُورِهِ كَمِشْكَاةٍ فِيهَا مِصْبَاحٌ ۖ الْمِصْبَاحُ فِي زُجَاجَةٍ ۖ الزُّجَاجَةُ كَأَنَّهَا كَوْكَبٌ دُرِّيٌّ يُوقَدُ مِنْ شَجَرَةٍ مُبَارَكَةٍ زَيْتُونَةٍ لَا شَرْقِيَّةٍ وَلَا غَرْبِيَّةٍ يَكَادُ زَيْتُهَا يُضِيءُ وَلَوْ لَمْ تَمْسَسْهُ نَارٌ ۚ نُورٌ عَلَىٰ نُورٍ ۗ يَهْدِي اللَّهُ لِنُورِهِ مَنْ يَشَاءُ ۚ وَيَضْرِبُ اللَّهُ الْأَمْثَالَ لِلنَّاسِ ۗ وَاللَّهُ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمٌ {35}

[Pickthal 24:35] Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The similitude of His light is as a niche wherein is a lamp. The lamp is in a glass. The glass is as it were a shining star. (This lamp is) kindled from a blessed tree, an olive neither of the East nor of the West, whose oil would almost glow forth (of itself) though no fire touched it. Light upon light. Allah guideth unto His light whom He will. And Allah speaketh to mankind in allegories, for Allah is Knower of all things.
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 24:35]

The great mystery of existence, its eternal origin and infinite permanence is described in the most comprehensive and eloquent parable of light, which contains layer upon layer of allegorical comparisons to make apparent to man the purpose of the great author of the universe. The physical light is but a reflection of the true light in the realm of reality, and that true light is Allah. The performance of light is to manifest. It is Allah who manifests the universe. The human beings can only think of the factors of the spiritual world in terms of the phenomenal experience obtainable through physical senses; and in the phenomenal world light is the purest thing known to man. Due to the limitations of human experience man cannot see the real light but perceive only the lighted objects. So the physical experience is an illusion, because physical light has drawbacks incidental to its physical nature. It is dependent upon some source external to itself; it is a passing phenomenon; if it is taken to be a form of motion or energy it is unstable, like all physical phenomena; and it is dependent on space and time. The perfect light of Allah is free from any such defects. It prevails everywhere. It envelops everything. It is independent of time and space. The niche (mishkat) is the recess in the wall, high from the ground in the house. The divine light, according to the parable, is placed high above everything, all that which has been created, the whole universe. The lamp is the core of the real illumination. It is placed inside a glass which protects it from any outside interference or disturbance (refer to Saff: 8). The illumination shines bright like a star. In this world, governed by the laws of cause and effect, it becomes natural to know what makes the lamp burn, as no lamp burns without oil. So to give man the idea of causative factor of the generation of light, it is said that the oil of the blessed tree of olive keeps the lamp alive. It is said that after the great flood, the olive tree was the first to grow on the earth. This mystic olive is not localised. It is neither of the east nor of the west. It is universal like the light of Allah.

The light of wisdom (the Quran) in the heart of the Holy Prophet is as protected as the lamp in the glass. Verses 77 to 79 of al Waqi-ah clearly state that the Quran is a protected book; and no one can touch it save the thoroughly purified, the Ahl ul Bayt, according to the verse 33 of Ahzab. Therefore the true interpretation of "light upon light" is the Holy Prophet and his Ahl ul Bayt. It is further made clear in the next verse.

For "Allah guides whom He wills to His light" see the commentary of al Baqarah: 256 and 257-he who believes in Allah, indeed, has taken hold of the firmest handhold (or rope) which will not break off. Allah brings them out of the darkness into light-It is obvious that those who are guided unto His light are the thoroughly purified ones. They alone are the manifestations of the real light. Those who follow these reflection of the divine light receive guidance from the grace of Allah to the extend or degree of their sincere attachment to them. Salman was the only companion of the Holy Prophet who achieved the distinction of becoming one of the Ahl ul Bayt.

The Holy Prophet said:

"My Ahl ul Bayt are like the ark of Nuh. Whosoever sails on it is safe, and whosoever holds back shall perish."

Nubuwwah and imamah, jointly or separately, are the most perfect guidance unto the light of Allah. Allah Himself chooses and appoints the guide, but His choice is not arbitrary. There are conditions which have to be fulfilled. Refer to the commentary of al Baqarah: 124. When Allah appointed Ibrahim as an Imam after testing his faith and awareness, for the whole mankind, he requested Allah to continue this august office in his progeny. Allah agreed to do so, but "it is a covenant which shall not reach the unjust (zalim)" was added. According to verse 13 of Luqman polytheism is the greatest injustice (zulm), therefore as explained in detail in the commentary of al Baqarah: 124 the Ahl ul Bayt of the Holy Prophet was the only group which never worshipped any ghayrallah. Those who had worshipped idols at any time in their lives could not be chosen as Imams at all, but after becoming Muslims if they had accepted the Imams of the Ahl ul Bayt as their guides, and followed them, then, according to the degree of their sincerity and awareness, they are entitled to occupy suitable position in the journey towards the enlightenment available from the light of Allah. Mere verbal profession of faith in Allah without attachment to the Ahl ul Bayt is as bad as hypocrisy.

The existence of the supreme being has been compared to light in order to make human intellect understand a great attribute of Allah, otherwise He is the inconceivable absolute who has created the light. Light is His manifestation. It is not His being.

Aqa Mahdi Puya says:

To know the proper application of ayah al Nur the following points should be kept in view:

(i) It is a parable.

(ii) A parable implies several applications corresponding to various aspects.

(iii) The light should be understood in its widest sense, as a self-evident being which is evident by itself, and through which other beings become evident.

(iv) The light emanating from a source may pass through transparent or opaque mediums. Generally it is not serviceable when it passes through an opaque medium but is profitable when it goes through a transparent medium.

Transparent mediums have different degrees of transparency. Better conductivity depends on the degree of refinement and purification of the medium.

There may be a source or cause which produces the light. It may also be self-illuminating .

(vii) Usually light proceeding from a source illuminates a particular area, leaving other areas unlighted.

(viii) The source of the light, in this verse, is not localised. It is neither of the east nor the west-not any particular area or direction. See my note in Maryam: 16 to 40.

(ix) The parable is applicable to the process of creation as well as to guidance and also to legislation in order to regulate human behaviour both as an individual and as a member of society.

(x) Light as a symbol of guidance is one of the attributes of Allah. It is manifested in both the realms of creation and legislation.

Allah is the light through which every created being comes into evidence, and every being is guided toward the destination where it should reach. To reach to the destination of salvation, bliss and satisfaction it has to do that which guidance points out.

In every realm and sphere there is a point in which the light of creation or guidance manifests itself originally, and then illuminates the surroundings. Niche {mishtat) refers to this "point" as the exalted holy place chosen for the manifestation of Allah's name and attributes. There should be an entity whose cognitive self becomes the focus of light. Such entities have been pointed out clearly in Ahzab: 33 and Ali Imran: 61 as the first and the foremost in receiving the light of existence in the arc of descent and the-last in the arc of ascent. In the realm of creation they are the best entities or "points" in which the light of creation manifested itself originally. In the realm of legislation and guidance too they are the best models.

If applied to any individual the niche is the power of expression and the "house" (in which the niche is situated) is the body.

If applied to the group of the Ahl ul Bayt and the prophets, the niche in the house is the Holy Prophet.

The divine light passed through the purest transparent chain of prophets, without any detour, and manifested itself in its full glory in the Holy Prophet, to illuminate the human society for ever.

All the mediums-lamp, glass etcetera-which are the various stages between the original source and the final spreading of the light should be of the highest transparency so as not to affect the purity of light passing through them. It implies that the minds, hearts, loins and wombs of the ancestors of the Holy Prophet were free from the dirt of polytheism.

The house in which the niche always remained is described in verse 36. There always exists a group of persons whose hearts and minds are fully occupied with the remembrance of Allah.

The niche is the source of light, and the oil of the blessed tree is a pure "light above light". There is not a slightest trace of darkness. Darkness or evil exists outside the sphere of the houses in which the niche is located and cannot enter into it.

Also refer to the commentary of al Baqarah: 275; Nisa: 175 ; Ma-idah: 1 5 and Yunus: 87.

S.M.H.A. · October 30, 2017

35 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

It seems the idea of mukhlisin and these infallible beings of light being made before Adam AS and all that, are being forced/brought into the religion that just doesn't fit in Quran.

"

The verse of Almighty Allah:

أَنبِئُونِي بِأَسْمَاء هَؤُلاء إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِين

Tell me the names of those if you are right.28

has a lot of wisdom hidden in it. One of them is that He gave a capability to Adam to teach the names of Imams to the angels. Also, He made angels capable enough to learn the meanings from Adam. Thus the Almighty Allah taught them to Adam and the latter taught them to the angels. Thus Adam is like a knowledgeable teacher and angels are like knowledge-seeking students. This meaning is explained by Holy Quran.>

https://www.al-islam.org/kamaaluddin-wa-tamaamun-nima-vol-1-shaykh-saduq/introduction#why-almighty-Allah-ordered-angels-prostrate-adam

"

Why the Almighty Allah ordered angels to prostrate before Adam (a.s.)?

The Almighty Allah ordered His angels to prostrate to Adam as a mark of his respect while the latter was not visible to them. He ordered the angles to prostrate to Adam when he had made the souls of his proofs enter his loins. Thus, that prostration was like Allah’s worship, Adam’s obedience and as a mark of honor for those souls which were present in the loin of Adam. Iblees refused to prostrate to Adam out of jealousy because Allah had made the loins of Adam a source of His proofs and did not do so to Shaitan’s loins.

Hence, he treaded on the way of infidelity because of his jealousy and moved away from the way of obedience of his Lord. Hence he was banished from the neighborhood of the Lord. He was cursed and was given the title of rajeem (the accursed one) because he denied occultation and put forward this excuse of not prostrating before Adam:

أَنَاْ خَيْرٌ مِّنْهُ خَلَقْتَنِي مِن نَّارٍ وَخَلَقْتَهُ مِن طِينٍ

I am better than he: Thou hast created me of fire, while him Thou didst create of dust.23

Thus he denied what he could not see. He made the physical body of Adam an excuse for denial of those who were present in his loins. He did not accept the fact that Adam was made only the Qibla and angels were ordered to prostrate before him so that the personalities present in his loins are honored. Therefore, a person who has faith in the Qaim in his occultation is like the angels of that time who prostrated before Adam and obeyed Allah in this way.

Whereas a person who does not have faith in the Qaim in his occultation is like Shaitan who refused to prostrate to Adam..."

Edited October 30, 2017 by S.M.H.A.

Urwatul Wuthqa · October 30, 2017

45 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

Say, "O My servants who have transgressed against themselves [by sinning], do not despair of the mercy of Allah . Indeed, Allah forgives all sins. Indeed, it is He who is the Forgiving, the Merciful."

Muhammad and Isa ibn Mariam, and Ahlul Bayt, are included in the above and muslims who submit to Allah.

The one who has been sent by Allah as "Rehmatan lil aalameen", addressed by Allah in words like "la taqnatu min Rehmatillah", are you really serious?

وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَاكَ إِلَّا رَحْمَةً لِّلْعَالَمِينَ

21:107

45 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

46:9

Say: 'I am not an innovation among the Messengers, and I know not what shall be done with me or with you. I only follow what is revealed to me; I am only a clear warner.'

This verse deconstructs your argument.

Surah Al-Ahqaf, Verse 9:

قُلْ مَا كُنتُ بِدْعًا مِّنَ الرُّسُلِ وَمَا أَدْرِي مَا يُفْعَلُ بِي وَلَا بِكُمْ إِنْ أَتَّبِعُ إِلَّا مَا يُوحَىٰ إِلَيَّ وَمَا أَنَا إِلَّا نَذِيرٌ مُّبِينٌ

Say: I am not the first of the apostles, and I do not know what will be done with me or with you: I do not follow anything but that which is revealed to me, and I am nothing but a plain warner.

(English - Shakir)

"I follow not anything but that which is revealed to me" confirms that every word and deed of the Holy Prophet was in strict compliance of Allah's will. That makes him infallible and that is confirming my argument.

Please note that not every revelation is a verse of Quran, not every revelation need to be disclosed or presented before people, not every revelation requires the arrival or presence of Jibra'il e.g.,

Surah An-Najm, Verse 10:

فَأَوْحَىٰ إِلَىٰ عَبْدِهِ مَا أَوْحَىٰ

And He revealed to His servant what He revealed.

(English - Shakir)

What is that "ma awha"? Do you know anything about that revelation? If yes, let me know about it and your source as well.

51 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

Men are made the same as every other man.

Muhammad and Ahlul Bayt are not light, this is clear contradiction.

Hmm so let me know about these verses:

Surah Al-Araf, Verse 172:

وَإِذْ أَخَذَ رَبُّكَ مِن بَنِي آدَمَ مِن ظُهُورِهِمْ ذُرِّيَّتَهُمْ وَأَشْهَدَهُمْ عَلَىٰ أَنفُسِهِمْ أَلَسْتُ بِرَبِّكُمْ قَالُوا بَلَىٰ شَهِدْنَا أَن تَقُولُوا يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ إِنَّا كُنَّا عَنْ هَٰذَا غَافِلِينَ

And when your Lord brought forth from the children of Adam, from their backs, their descendants, and made them bear witness against their own souls: Am I not your Lord? They said: Yes! we bear witness. Lest you should say on the day of resurrection: Surely we were heedless of this.

(English - Shakir)

What was that place & what was the shape of those humans?

Surah Aal-e-Imran, Verse 81:

وَإِذْ أَخَذَ اللَّهُ مِيثَاقَ النَّبِيِّينَ لَمَا آتَيْتُكُم مِّن كِتَابٍ وَحِكْمَةٍ ثُمَّ جَاءَكُمْ رَسُولٌ مُّصَدِّقٌ لِّمَا مَعَكُمْ لَتُؤْمِنُنَّ بِهِ وَلَتَنصُرُنَّهُ قَالَ أَأَقْرَرْتُمْ وَأَخَذْتُمْ عَلَىٰ ذَٰلِكُمْ إِصْرِي قَالُوا أَقْرَرْنَا قَالَ فَاشْهَدُوا وَأَنَا مَعَكُم مِّنَ الشَّاهِدِينَ

And when Allah made a covenant through the prophets: Certainly what I have given you of Book and wisdom-- then an apostle comes to you verifying that which is with you, you must believe in him, and you must aid him. He said: Do you affirm and accept My compact in this (matter)? They said: We do affirm. He said: Then bear witness, and I (too) am of the bearers of witness with you.

(English - Shakir)

Again the same question, the place where Allah took covenant and the shape of these Prophets?

**ShiaMan14** · October 30, 2017

On 10/28/2017 at 8:46 AM, just a muslim said:

you guys do not understand. i am not saying i am sunni so i believe sunni hadith. i am saying i have good reason to believe the sunni books of rijal/men, and zero reason to believe the shia books of rijal/men. and one of you is trying to say i am wrong by assuming the shia hadith to be true. while the other one is using historical accounts, whos authenticity no one knows, to prove a point while doubting the authenticity of hadith, which have been verified to a much higher extent than historical records.

You are saying you believe in Sunni hadith because some of them became scientifically proven not more than 50 years ago. You mentioned fasting specifically. That is the only reason for you to trust Sunni literature.

Using your 'criteria', I provided a link about the importance of fasting in shia narrations. Based on that, you should trust shia sources just as much.

You are yet to provide a 'good' reason for believing Sunni hadith over shia hadith.

On 10/28/2017 at 8:46 AM, just a muslim said:

to put it simply, and let's just assume for the sake of this discussion and simplicity that i do not trust sunni narrators either, i will say this:

i do not know who those people who narrated the shia hadith were. and those who said how those people were, good or bad, i dont know them either. and i have no reason to trust them. and that is why i asked, why the shias trust them? can you answer this question @shiaman14?

you don't know the people who narrated Sunni hadith either. Everything you know about anyone in Sunni hadith is also a narration from someone else.

Every single argument you have against Shia literature can be used against you on Sunni literature.

wmehar2 · October 30, 2017

1 hour ago, Salsabeel said:

The one who has been sent by Allah as "Rehmatan lil aalameen", addressed by Allah in words like "la taqnatu min Rehmatillah", are you really serious?

The Quran uses 3abd directly for my servant/servants for Jesus ibn Mariam and Muhammad in Quran. I could find them for you if you'd like.

1 hour ago, Salsabeel said:

"I follow not anything but that which is revealed to me" confirms that every word and deed of the Holy Prophet was in strict compliance of Allah's will. That makes him infallible and that is confirming my argument.

It also means the Prophet Followed only Quran. Also --->"Follow" here is in present tense, If I told you I follow Islam or followed Islam, you would say that I was a muslim but that does not insinuate infallibility on me. I could take several excerpts from the Quran that refer to fallible individuals in the same way you're tying infallibility to this verse as a proof. The logic just does not follow.

We all intend to follow Gods will and may trip up along the way, we are still followers. If one person makes one sin, while following a religion (let's say a small sin, or not even a heavy sin) does that mean they're instantly no longer followers? Have we become Takfiri now?

1 hour ago, Salsabeel said:

Surah Al-Araf, Verse 172:

وَإِذْ أَخَذَ رَبُّكَ مِن بَنِي آدَمَ مِن ظُهُورِهِمْ ذُرِّيَّتَهُمْ وَأَشْهَدَهُمْ عَلَىٰ أَنفُسِهِمْ أَلَسْتُ بِرَبِّكُمْ قَالُوا بَلَىٰ شَهِدْنَا أَن تَقُولُوا يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ إِنَّا كُنَّا عَنْ هَٰذَا غَافِلِينَ

And when your Lord brought forth from the children of Adam, from their backs, their descendants, and made them bear witness against their own souls: Am I not your Lord? They said: Yes! we bear witness. Lest you should say on the day of resurrection: Surely we were heedless of this.

(English - Shakir)

What was that place & what was the shape of those humans?

Surah Aal-e-Imran, Verse 81:

وَإِذْ أَخَذَ اللَّهُ مِيثَاقَ النَّبِيِّينَ لَمَا آتَيْتُكُم مِّن كِتَابٍ وَحِكْمَةٍ ثُمَّ جَاءَكُمْ رَسُولٌ مُّصَدِّقٌ لِّمَا مَعَكُمْ لَتُؤْمِنُنَّ بِهِ وَلَتَنصُرُنَّهُ قَالَ أَأَقْرَرْتُمْ وَأَخَذْتُمْ عَلَىٰ ذَٰلِكُمْ إِصْرِي قَالُوا أَقْرَرْنَا قَالَ فَاشْهَدُوا وَأَنَا مَعَكُم مِّنَ الشَّاهِدِينَ

And when Allah made a covenant through the prophets: Certainly what I have given you of Book and wisdom-- then an apostle comes to you verifying that which is with you, you must believe in him, and you must aid him. He said: Do you affirm and accept My compact in this (matter)? They said: We do affirm. He said: Then bear witness, and I (too) am of the bearers of witness with you.

(English - Shakir)

Again the same question, the place where Allah took covenant and the shape of these Prophets?

If Muhammad came before Adam, then he is not a Son of Adam, yet we are all called children of Adam. You're turning Muhammad into something that is not Human. Is Muhammad human or not? We are all Children of Adam, including the Mother of Muhammad and Father of Muhammad.

I will answer your question regardless. You asked what place and what shape were those humans referred to in 172 of al Araf?

7:168-176

And We cut them up into nations in the earth, some of them righteous, and some of them otherwise; and We tried them with good things and evil, that haply they should return.

And there succeeded after them a succession who inherited the Book, taking the chance goods of this lower world, and saying, 'It will be forgiven us'; and if chance goods the like of them come to them, they will take them. Has not the compact of the Book been taken touching them, that they should say concerning God nothing but the truth? And they have studied what is in it; and the Last Abode is better for those who are godfearing. Do you not understand?

And those who hold fast to the Book, and perform the prayer -- surely We leave not to waste the wage of those who set aright.

And when We shook the mountain above them as if it were a canopy, and they supposed it was about to fall on them: 'Take forcefully what We have given you, and remember what is in it; haply you will be godfearing.'

And when thy Lord took from the Children of Adam, from their loins, their seed, and made them testify touching themselves, 'Am I not your Lord?' They said, 'Yes, we testify'-- lest you should say on the Day of Resurrection, 'As for us, we were heedless of this,'

or lest you say, 'Our fathers were idolaters aforetime, and we were seed after them. What, wilt Thou then destroy us for the deeds of the vain-doers?'

So We distinguish the signs; and haply they will return.

And recite to them the tiding of him to whom We gave Our signs, but he cast them off; and Satan followed after him, and he became one of the perverts.

There is a lot.. ALOT going on here. Either way I'm attempting to answer your question; it says" WHEN thy Lord took from Children of Adam from "Their" loins. The first thing I noticed is that "their" is being used possessively, in speech. Plainly, Allah takes from children of Adam (not adam himself), then from the children's loins their seed, and made them testify touching upon themselves in oath that Allah is their Lord. So that they don't claim they were heedless/oblivious/blind etc., and also so that they don't say their victims to what their forefathers taught them. So Allah/They distinguished the Signs of Allah so they will return. Allah tells Muhammad to recite of a time where a man existed whom Allah gave signs but discarded them and became victim of Satan's perversion.

The shape is not determinable, nor is the place yet, to your question.

If Allah took all the Seeds of Adam, at the same time for this oath, All those to have ever lived/will live, it would just say directly Allah took the seeds of Adam/descendants at that time, But it does not. Instead it says, When.... from Children of Adam, from their loins, their seed.... seems to IMPLY (I'm assuming this from reading) that this event did not occur just once. It's something that has recurred over, and over, from generation to generation this oath taken place.

3:79-85

It belongs not to any mortal that God should give him the Book, the Judgment, the Prophethood, then he should say to men, 'Be you servants to me apart from God.' Rather, 'Be you masters in that you know the Book, and in that you study.'

He would never order you to take the angels and the Prophets as Lords; what, would He order you to disbelieve, after you have surrendered? [Keep in mind obeying Muhammad as man, his every action/command would mean you're taking Muhammad as a Lord, but Obeying Muhammad the messenger as he delivers the message, is obeying Allah - This Is why Allah made it distinct in Quran, Why else Would Allah mention this? If messengers were to be obeyed unquestioningly etc. etc. why mention this verse? So Allah ensures you follow Him and not his prophets/men] @Gaius I. Caesar

And when God took compact with the Prophets: 'That I have given (past tense) you of Book and Wisdom; then there shall come to you a Messenger confirming what is with you -- you shall believe in him and you shall help him; do you agree?' He said. 'And do you take My load on you on that condition?' They said, 'We do agree.' God said, 'Bear witness so, and I shall be with you among the witnesses.'

And whoever turned away after that - they were the defiantly disobedient.

So is it other than the religion of Allah they desire, while to Him have submitted [all] those within the heavens and earth, willingly or by compulsion, and to Him they will be returned? [two types of submitters, willingly and by compulsion, very important to note, because it begs the question if the Prophet's were compelled or willing servants]

Say, "We have believed in Allah and in what was revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Descendants, and in what was given to Moses and Jesus and to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [submitting] to Him." [If Muhammad @Salsabeel was distinct (not a child of Adam, or a separate entity alive/cognizant of the time of Adam) messenger apart from the messenger, why verses like this and others? -- Why Does Allah want us to say this, why not Mention Imam Ali AS like Shia's do, or Sahaba even?]

Say, "We have believed in Allah and in what was revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Descendants, and in what was given to Moses and Jesus and to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [submitting] to Him."

You asked the place where the covenant and shape of these prophets, they were definitely shapes of humans at this time, place, is somewhere on earth now. If I'm reading these properly. So these events transpired independently at different places in the realm, presumably. Allah uses "given" in the verse 3:81, meaning this is after the time of Adam. An Angel /Messenger will come and verify/confirm the book/message with the prophet(s). These are also independent events exclusive to each prophet, sort of similarly to the children of adam reference above.

So far, I'm only seeing you stretch and stretch and stretch even more connecting dots that aren't meant to be connected. It seems you're exploiting vague instances/reference and loosely tying in something that was not said explicitly. Though I'm seeming to learn more and more we discuss and think about things.

You probably realize this but the only way you read and tie the things you say to me the way you are, are from what you've learned in Hadith/narrative's that make up Shiism theology.

You're not reading this Qur'an with a blank fresh mind as I'm attempting to (dispelling whatever Sunni theologies/hadith in my mind to reconcile the verses).

2 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

Please note that not every revelation is a verse of Quran, not every revelation need to be disclosed or presented before people, not every revelation requires the arrival or presence of Jibra'il e.g.,

According to Qu'ran, Allah ONLY spoke to Musa AS. I've proven this already in the link to the prior thread where we discussed. See below pasted excerpt.

42:51-52

And it is not for any human being that Allah should speak to him except by revelation or from behind a partition or that He sends a messenger to reveal, by His permission, what He wills. Indeed, He is Most High and Wise.

*Yukalima, is typically understood to mean communicate/speak, though in it's actual form, it means "give word" This is fundamentally different from actual talking/saying things with a voice. Note this distinction** Also note the ORDER these are in.

---From the above, we understand there are 3 ways for Allah to converse with humans. Revelation, from behind a veil/partition, or sends a messenger to reveal.---------

And thus We have revealed to you an inspiration of Our command. You did not know what is the Book or [what is] faith, but We have made it a light by which We guide whom We will of Our servants. And indeed, [O Muhammad], you guide to a straight path -

--How did Allah according to Quran "give words"/communicate to Muhammad?

One thing that we know, from Qu'ran, is that Allah TALKED with Musa AS. --

4:163-164

We have revealed to thee as We revealed to Noah, and the Prophets after him, and We revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, Jesus and Job, Jonah and Aaron and Solomon, and We gave to David Psalms,

And (We sent) messengers We have mentioned to you before and messengers we have not mentioned to you; and to Musa, Allah addressed His Word, speaking (to him):

--Allah communicated to Musa AS by speaking directly to him? Let's see.--

20:11-12, 17-18

So when he came to it, a voice was uttered: O Musa:

Surely I am your Lord, therefore put off your shoes; surely you are in the sacred valley, Tuwa,

-Allah is speaking in first person. No angel is saying this to Musa.--

And what is this in your right hand, O Musa?

He said: This is my staff: I recline on it and I beat the leaves with it to make them fall upon my sheep, and I have other uses for it.

--Allah, is literally talking with Musa AS. In the first person. As you may be familiar with the passages, Musa AS is out in the wilderness, doing whatever it is he was doing. And Allah is having a Dialogue/conversation with Allah. Look at that! No one in between them, Allah and Musa AS. ** This is PRIOR to Musa AS receiving Revelation ***

**ShiaMan14** · October 30, 2017

16 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

I'll start from 34:45 then to 53 if that's okay

Those that were before them also cried lies, yet they reached not a tenth of what We gave them; they cried lies to My Messengers, and how was My horror!

45--Say (Muhammad): 'I give you but one admonition, that you stand unto God, two by two and one by one, and then reflect: no madness is in your comrade. He is naught but a warner unto you, before a terrible chastisement.'

At first glance I see Allah is addressing Muhammad SAW. It also appears Allah is describing the Unseen of when it was too late for the disbelievers, claiming they believe in the message, but it was too late for their words to matter/reach. The beginning part of these passages referred to prior people whom God's message was being delivered to, they barely received 1/10th of the message and doubted/accused the messengers of the past of revealing lies. In response, God commands Muhammad to say, that Muhammad isn't asking personal wage, for Allah is who rewards, who knows the truth of the Unseen, and that he is Truth, where no falsehoods originate nor can be brought in place of truth. And then for Muhammad to tell them if he's gone astray, it is because of his own personal loss, but if he is guided, it is because of what Allah reveals.

The above is a misunderstanding. In this verse, Allah is speaking to the people and telling them the Prophet is a warner.

16 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

9:43

God pardon thee (Muhammad)! Why gavest thou them leave, till it was clear to thee which of them spoke the truth, and thou knewest the liars?

[Shakir 9:43] Allah pardon you! Why did you give them leave until those who spoke the truth had become manifest to you and you had known the liars?
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 9:43]

Aqa Mahdi Puya says:

Like verse 2 of Fat-h, the companions are addressed here through the Holy Prophet. The manner, mode and trend of expression is the same as in verse 1 of Tahrim or verse 68 of Anfal. The Holy Prophet had the option of giving permission (Nur: 62), and there was no prohibitory order prior to his action. He did not want to expose the hypocrites on his own, unless Allah condemns them as He does here and in other places.

wmehar2 · October 30, 2017

2 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

The above is a misunderstanding. In this verse, Allah is speaking to the people and telling them the Prophet is a warner.

[Shakir 9:43] Allah pardon you! Why did you give them leave until those who spoke the truth had become manifest to you and you had known the liars?
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 9:43]

Aqa Mahdi Puya says:

Like verse 2 of Fat-h, the companions are addressed here through the Holy Prophet. The manner, mode and trend of expression is the same as in verse 1 of Tahrim or verse 68 of Anfal. The Holy Prophet had the option of giving permission (Nur: 62), and there was no prohibitory order prior to his action. He did not want to expose the hypocrites on his own, unless Allah condemns them as He does here and in other places.

Could you help me understand the misunderstanding in my laymen/breakdown of the verses specifically? I seem to agree Allah is having Muhammad SAW tell the people he's a warner, in addition to the rest I noted.

As for 9:43, I disagree with Aqa Mahdi Puya's explanation here. Because of what follows /precedes: