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In the Name of God بسم الله
just a muslim

question again

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On 10/27/2017 at 12:17 AM, shiaman14 said:

I have. I problem saying this is false. We don't have Sahih books. Each hadith is validated on its own merit.

Of course you have no problem saying this is false, when it is not, because in your school, you freestyle (for the lack of a better phrase) as you go.  Precisely why the majority of the ummah do not take you seriously.  You may not have sahih books now, the original opinion towards Al-Kafi, however, was far removed from what is being said today.

To return to the topic, passing by this website a few years ago, I noticed a knowledgeable brother say the following regarding this very narration that "by the standard of 90-95% of scholars this would be classed as saheeh".  However, he too had to preface it by saying that the hadith is weak according to him. 

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235001541-imam-bukhari-is-actually-mentioned-in-the-bukhari/

How can there be sincere discussions with such insincerity?  And that undermines your scholarship because a layman and a student of knowledge can put their opinions ahead of those they take their religion from.

 

Here is the link to Hayat Al-Qaloob VOL 1 section about Hz Musa. I couldn't find the above when I skimmed through it.

https://www.al-islam.org/hayat-al-qulub-vol-1-allamah-muhammad-baqir-al-majlisi/account-musa-and-harun

Maybe Al-Islam also skimmed through and provided an abridged version.

moses-bath.gif

 

 

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قُلْ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ تُحِبُّونَ اللَّهَ فَاتَّبِعُونِي يُحْبِبْكُمُ اللَّهُ وَيَغْفِرْ لَكُمْ ذُنُوبَكُمْ ۗ وَاللَّهُ غَفُورٌ رَحِيمٌ {31}

[Shakir 3:31] Say: If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL
[Pickthal 3:31] Say, (O Muhammad, to mankind): If ye love Allah, follow me; Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
[Yusufali 3:31] Say: "If ye do love Allah, Follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 3:31]

Love of Allah is the basis and essence of Islam. Fear is not the motivating factor, because one who worships Him and obeys His commands out of fear, devoid of love for His grace, comes in the category of idolworshippers who worship the false deities to appease their anger. See the commentary of rahman and rahim in surah al Fatihah and know that the heathen syndrome has been destroyed and replaced with love, kindness and compassion by the religion of Allah, Islam. The phrase "God-fearing" actually means guarding oneself against evil with awareness of the boundaries laid down by Allah. Man must refrain from thinking or acting in a way which may hurt the feelings of the beloved whom he intensely loves, reveres and worships.

It is made clear in this verse that he who loves Allah must follow the Holy Prophet. Sincere following of the Holy Prophet in the day to day life is the only proof of the love of Allah, otherwise it is an empty claim. Allah loves the true followers of the Holy Prophet and forgives their sins.

One who loves his beloved also loves those whom his beloved loves, therefore, every sincere follower of Islam (Allah's lover) must love the Holy Prophet and those whom he loves. There are several authentic traditions reported in the books of history written by Muslim scholars, referred to in the commentary of many verses in this book, according to which the Holy Prophet had openly declared his exclusive love for Ali, Fatimah, Hasan and Husayn and their children; and in verse 23 of al Shura love of the Ahl ul Bayt has been enjoined on all the true believers. In fact those who do not love the Ahl ul Bayt are not the believers, therefore, the doctrine of tawalla is one of the fundamentals of the true faith, Islam original or Shi-aism.

Likewise, in the light of verse 28 of this surah, it is the duty of every Muslim to avoid and dislike the enemies and the allies and friends of the enemies of the Holy Prophet, because a believer cannot be a friend of those who hated and opposed the Holy Prophet and his Ahl ul Bayt. Therefore, the doctrine of tabarra is also one of the fundamentals of the true faith, Shi-aism.

The love of the Holy Prophet and his Ahl ul Bayt makes man follow in their footsteps, which, in fact, is the love of Allah. Those who oppose them and follow their enemies go against Allah and His commandments.

A true lover of Allah becomes a devotee of the Holy Prophet and his Ahl ul Bayt, and mindful of the life after death, his true love activates him to always do that which pleases Allah, the Holy Prophet and his Ahl ul Bayt, and refrain from acts of wickedness which certainly displease them; moreover, he remains attached with the Holy Prophet and his Ahl ul Bayt and refrains from going near their ungodly enemies, be they his own kith and kin.

Aqa Mahdi Puya says:

According to An-am: 50;Araf: 203;Yunus: 15; Ahqaf: 9 and Najm: 3 and 4, since the Holy Prophet only followed the divine will, therefore, following in his footsteps is the only proof of the love of Allah, which alone entitles man to receive Allah's love. Any deviation from his word or deed means the deviator not only loses Allah's love but also earns His displeasure.

Ali ibna abi Talib has said:

The words and deeds of the Holy Prophet, from the beginning to the end of his stay in this world, were the truest demonstration of the divine revelations (nothing but a revelation revealed), and I did not follow any save him.

Therefore, Ali was the beloved of Allah and His prophet because he loved Allah and His prophet.

http://quran.al-islam.org/

*****

يس {1}

[Pickthal 36:1] Ya Sin.

وَالْقُرْآنِ الْحَكِيمِ {2}

[Pickthal 36:2] By the wise Qur'an,

إِنَّكَ لَمِنَ الْمُرْسَلِينَ {3}

[Pickthal 36:3] Lo! thou art of those sent

عَلَىٰ صِرَاطٍ مُسْتَقِيمٍ {4}

[Pickthal 36:4] On a straight path,

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235053220-question-to-sunnis-kerbela/?page=5&tab=comments#comment-3089496

 

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2 hours ago, S.M.H.A. said:

http://quran.al-islam.org/

*****

يس {1}

[Pickthal 36:1] Ya Sin.

وَالْقُرْآنِ الْحَكِيمِ {2}

[Pickthal 36:2] By the wise Qur'an,

إِنَّكَ لَمِنَ الْمُرْسَلِينَ {3}

[Pickthal 36:3] Lo! thou art of those sent

عَلَىٰ صِرَاطٍ مُسْتَقِيمٍ {4}

[Pickthal 36:4] On a straight path,

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235053220-question-to-sunnis-kerbela/?page=5&tab=comments#comment-3089496

 

 

 

[Pickthal 36:2] By the wise Qur'an,

<[It says here By the wise Qur'an, not by your perfect character and wisdom, O Prophet.

Furthermore logic follows God is saying Muhammad was led straight by Quran, others should do the same>]

 

إِنَّكَ لَمِنَ الْمُرْسَلِينَ {3}

[Pickthal 36:3] Lo! thou art of those sent

عَلَىٰ صِرَاطٍ مُسْتَقِيمٍ {4}

[Pickthal 36:4] On a straight path,

 

 

3:31

Say, [O Muhammad], "If you should love Allah, then follow me, [so] Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."

 

I can't fathom the stretch here that following the Prophet means to follow him and his family.

Allah says if you love Him, follow the messenger and obey the messenger  that is obeying the message that is obeying Allah and ultimately follow Allah.

I've established earlier  that following the Prophet's message (obey the messenger, who is delivering the message, that is the content of the Quran that shall be obeyed, which = obey Allah) in the former thread where we were discussing this topic.

This is the most plain, most sensical way of reading it, to me.

My argument with Aqa Mahdi Puya is that Muhammad only followed divine will when delivering the message/reciting/revealing in accordance with the verses Ive presented in 

 

Where the Muhammad SAW was referred to in different operating capacities than messenger and admonished of his limitations as a simple fallible person.

He was only infallible when delivering revelation/the message as revealed to him to the people.

Edited by wmehar2

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4 minutes ago, just a muslim said:

i didnt ask you all this brother. i simply said, lets assume on an unrelated topic, that how do you KNOW something? general question. not related to islam.

This could get philosophical. 

Think might be worth defining what "Knowing" means.

Observation is limited by perception, and resources available to leverage in processing/synthesizing information. 

I can only make inferences using assumptions of "kind-of-known things" by using an array of collectively understood and tested observations.

But there may be a truth of something far beyond what we know at the time, this is observed as time progresses forward for mankind.

It'd be great if we were informed ahead of time by an all knowing entity, rather trip up the way we do.

24:45

Allah has created every [living] creature from water. And of them are those that move on their bellies, and of them are those that walk on two legs, and of them are those that walk on four. Allah creates what He wills. Indeed, Allah is over all things competent.

Kind of like the above.  

 

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1 hour ago, S.M.H.A. said:

A fallible can be infallible in delivering a message. 

As a messenger he is infallible, any human being is infallible when Allah gives them a message directly to give when :

53:2-4

Your friend was not misguided nor was he deceived,
nor does he speak out of personal desire.
It is but a revelation being revealed.

Muhammad's personal will is not Allah's will. QED, Proof is proven. " It "is Quran only, no confusion.  Why isn't it Muhammad's will to speak Quran out of desire ?  Because Muhammad alone isnt Quran or divine will or goodness.

Muhammad speaks hadith out of desire. but...

Muhammad does not speak Allah's words with desire. 

Clarification, Hadith =  no. Muhammad is fallible as a person. Though I've demonstrated this before directly from Quran.

We have in the following Quranic words clear evidence that the revelation mentioned in 53:3 is the Quran and nothing else:

 

Say (O Muhammad), "What thing is the greatest testimony?" Say, "God is Witness between me and you that this Quran has been revealed to me to warn you with it and whomever it reaches. Do you bear witness that there are other gods besides God?" Say, "I do not bear witness". Say, "He is but One God and I am innocent of the shirk which you commit." 6:19

The greatest testimony here is defined in Quran.

The greatest best of all testimonies  IS NOT " I testify Ali is the waliyah of Allah.",   Or not JUST..." there is no God but god and Muhammad is the messenger."

Allah says it plainly the greatest testimony. 

Hadith of Muhammad were burned, probably for this reason by his order, but that's speculation. 

Here we would differ once more in how we understand Qur'an. 

 

Say (O Muhammad), "I am not a novelty among other messengers, nor do I know what will happen to me or to you." 46:9

 

Say (O Muhammad), "I do not say to you that the treasures of God are in my possession, nor do I know the unseen, nor do I say to you that I am an angel. I only follow what is revealed to me." Say, "Is the blind and the seer the same? Do you not reflect?" 6:50

Say (O Muhammad), "No one in the heavens and the earth knows the unseen except God. They are unaware as to when they will be resurrected." 27:65

You wanna follow Muhammad and his Ahlul Bayt When Allah commanded him to say he doesn't know what will happen to himself and others?

QED once again.

@Gaius I. Caesar

Edited by wmehar2

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24 minutes ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

@wmehar2 What is QED? I am having a hard time understanding.

I picked it up as a mathematics undergraduate. 

Q.E.D. (also written QED and QED) is an initialism of the Latin phrase quod erat demonstrandum meaning "what was to be demonstrated" or "what was to be shown."[1]Some may also use a less direct translation instead: "thus it has been demonstrated." Traditionally, the phrase is placed in its abbreviated form at the end of a mathematical proof or philosophicalargument when the original proposition has been restated exactly, as the conclusion of the demonstration or completion of the proof.[2]

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3 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

He was only infallible when delivering revelation/the message as revealed to him to the people.

Brother, Why should anyone follow such a Prophet then? Who, after delivering the message, become fallible i.e., starts to err.

Surah An-Najm, Verse 2:

مَا ضَلَّ صَاحِبُكُمْ وَمَا غَوَىٰ

Your companion does not err, nor does he go astray;

(English - Shakir)

You really need to do hard work for defending this claim. 

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1 hour ago, wmehar2 said:

A fallible can be infallible in delivering a message. 

As a messenger he is infallible, any human being is infallible when Allah gives them a message directly to give when :

53:2-4

Your friend was not misguided nor was he deceived,
nor does he speak out of personal desire.
It is but a revelation being revealed.

Muhammad's personal will is not Allah's will. QED, Proof is proven. " It "is Quran only, no confusion.  Why isn't it Muhammad's will to speak Quran out of desire ?  Because Muhammad alone isnt Quran or divine will or goodness.

Muhammad speaks hadith out of desire. but...

Muhammad does not speak Allah's words with desire. 

Clarification, Hadith =  no. Muhammad is fallible as a person. Though I've demonstrated this before directly from Quran.

We have in the following Quranic words clear evidence that the revelation mentioned in 53:3 is the Quran and nothing else:

 

Say (O Muhammad), "What thing is the greatest testimony?" Say, "God is Witness between me and you that this Quran has been revealed to me to warn you with it and whomever it reaches. Do you bear witness that there are other gods besides God?" Say, "I do not bear witness". Say, "He is but One God and I am innocent of the shirk which you commit." 6:19

The greatest testimony here is defined in Quran.

The greatest best of all testimonies  IS NOT " I testify Ali is the waliyah of Allah.",   Or not JUST..." there is no God but god and Muhammad is the messenger."

Allah says it plainly the greatest testimony. 

Hadith of Muhammad were burned, probably for this reason by his order, but that's speculation. 

Here we would differ once more in how we understand Qur'an. 

 

Say (O Muhammad), "I am not a novelty among other messengers, nor do I know what will happen to me or to you." 46:9

 

Say (O Muhammad), "I do not say to you that the treasures of God are in my possession, nor do I know the unseen, nor do I say to you that I am an angel. I only follow what is revealed to me." Say, "Is the blind and the seer the same? Do you not reflect?" 6:50

Say (O Muhammad), "No one in the heavens and the earth knows the unseen except God. They are unaware as to when they will be resurrected." 27:65

You wanna follow Muhammad and his Ahlul Bayt When Allah commanded him to say he doesn't know what will happen to himself and others?

مَا ضَلَّ صَاحِبُكُمْ وَمَا غَوَىٰ - 53:2

 "Your companion [Muhammad] has not strayed, nor has he erred,"

وَمَا يَنطِقُ عَنِ الْهَوَىٰ - 53:3

Nor does he speak from [his own] inclination.

And if you look closely over here:

فَأَوْحَىٰ إِلَىٰ عَبْدِهِ مَا أَوْحَىٰ - 53:10

And He revealed to His Servant what He revealed.

مَا كَذَبَ الْفُؤَادُ مَا رَأَىٰ - 53:11

The heart did not lie [about] what it saw.

أَفَتُمَارُونَهُ عَلَىٰ مَا يَرَىٰ - 53:12

So will you dispute with him over what he saw?

 

Who are we to debate words of Muhammad (saws) and what he was revealed, when the real issue with hadith are the people reporting and recording hadith? Who are we as believers to suggest that Muhammad was a fallible human who was an infallible messenger, when the Quran says that Muhammad has not strayed or erred? The only logical conclusion to Muhammad (saws) being an infallible messenger is that he is an infallible person.

Edited by Gaius I. Caesar

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1 hour ago, Salsabeel said:

Brother, Why should anyone follow such a Prophet then? Who, after delivering the message, become fallible i.e., starts to err.

Surah An-Najm, Verse 2:

مَا ضَلَّ صَاحِبُكُمْ وَمَا غَوَىٰ

Your companion does not err, nor does he go astray;

(English - Shakir)

You really need to do hard work for defending this claim. 

It is quite trivial.   No need for hard work here.  

You're logic is a non-sequitur.   A fallible person does not err in everything that they do, it seems you're portraying.  A  person beong doesn't mean they're fallible in every conceivable dimension. 

If humankind is fallible does that mean all are astray?  God is Merciful and tells us over and over again because we'll make mistakes following His Guidance; Fallaibility as a question is not even relevant here.

53:1 By the Star when it plunges,

53:2 your comrade is not astray, neither errs

53:3 nor speaks he out of caprice.

53:4 This is naught but a revelation revealed,

53:5 taught him by one terrible in power,

literally reading this plainly in order seems to be very difficult for you. 

The comrade is not astray, erring, and not speaking out of his desire/will

"this (Quran)**  is nothing except a revelation that is revealed.  Meaning NOT words of Muhammad from his own.  Muhammad  was taught it ik frightening power. 

This verse without question is strictly talking about the mighty Quran descended/was revealed to Muhammad by Gabriel. 

Muhammad is not erring when he is not speaking from desire, recounting his experience from that night.  He is not erring when it comes the message. This is in line with every part of the Quran in its consistency, miraculously enough.   

This is not a blanket statement towards the entirety of Muhammad's character. 

Clearly you're taking it out context and are not reading plainly.

You're ignoring when Verses like 41:6

Say, O [Muhammad], "I am only a man like you to whom it has been revealed that your god is but one God; so take a straight course to Him and seek His forgiveness." And woe to those who associate others with Allah

Other wise your reading of this brings contradiction of Muhammad's  being pardoned, and approach to his wives  in Quran (which are errors/erring).

Preconception of Islam through Hadith that we grew up learning is the lense of distortion you're directly applying. 

If you cannot reconcile the contradictions being introduced by your line of thinking , then I cannot accept your counter argument.

@Gaius I. Caesar

I'm afraid we are mixing metaphors.  Muhammad had a trustworthy personality and wouldn't lead others into deception. 

He is purported to be a man, who is fallible.   in 41:6,  his character may not be fallable, that may be argued.  But man invariably make mistakes. 

Muhammad may be infallible as a character or personality who means only but well, but it doesn't detract himself as a man like Adam AS, and others who do make mistakes. 

53:3 Allah tells us Muhammad does not speak from freewill his message.  Removing Fallibility of human/mortal handling of delivering the message. 

You don't need Muhammad to be infallible or created infallible to do it.

Allah is telling you directly he can make his message delivered perfectly, because He has power over all things and makes it so.  He does not limit Himself to creating a being that is perfection.

Perfection is for Allah alone.

Edited by wmehar2

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11 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

You're ignoring when Verses like 41:6

Say, O [Muhammad], "I am only a man like you to whom it has been revealed that your god is but one God; so take a straight course to Him and seek His forgiveness." And woe to those who associate others with Allah

Other wise your reading of this brings contradiction of Muhammad's  being pardoned, and approach to his wives  in Quran (which are errors/erring).

Preconception of Islam through Hadith that we grew up learning is the lense of distortion you're directly applying. 

If you cannot reconcile the contradictions being introduced by your line of thinking , then I cannot accept your counter argument.

Hmmn, I see. I need to think about this further @wmehar2.

Edited by Heavenly_Silk
Removed name and added tag.

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28 minutes ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

Who are we to debate words of Muhammad (saws) and what he was revealed, when the real issue with hadith are the people reporting and recording hadith? Who are we as believers to suggest that Muhammad was a fallible human who was an infallible messenger, when the Quran says that Muhammad has not strayed or erred? The only logical conclusion to Muhammad (saws) being an infallible messenger is that he is an infallible person.

If Allahs words Alone aren't enough then Im afraid were underestimating Allah if we need Muhammad.

(because they're not the words of Muhammad)

 

3:144

Muhammad is naught but a Messenger; Messengers have passed away before him. Why, if he should die or is slain, will you turn about on your heels? If any man should turn about on his heels, he will not harm God in any way; and God will recompense the thankful.

this is redundant to above but it drives the pasted below' point:

 

53:3 Allah tells us Muhammad does not speak from freewill his message.  Removing Fallibility of human/mortal handling of delivering the message. 

You don't need Muhammad to be infallible or created infallible to do it.

Allah is telling you directly he can make his message delivered perfectly, because He has power over all things and makes it so.  He does not limit Himself to creating a being that is perfection.

Edited by wmehar2

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1 minute ago, wmehar2 said:

It is quite trivial.   No need for hard work here.  

You're logic is a non-sequitur.   A fallible person does no err in everything that they do, it seems you're portraying.

You need to elaborate this "everything".

A fallible person can err in "something", somewhere in his life.

10 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

This is not a blanket statement towards the entirety of Muhammad's character. 

Clearly you're taking it out context and are not reading plainly.

You're ignoring when Verses like 41:6

Say, O [Muhammad], "I am only a man like you to whom it has been revealed that your god is but one God; so take a straight course to Him and seek His forgiveness." And woe to those who associate others with Allah

لَقَدْ كَانَ لَكُمْ فِي رَسُولِ اللَّهِ أُسْوَةٌ حَسَنَةٌ لِّمَن كَانَ يَرْجُو اللَّهَ وَالْيَوْمَ الْآخِرَ وَذَكَرَ اللَّهَ كَثِيرًا

33:21

As I already advised you couple of days ago, make a new thread and discuss your understanding of phrase "basharun mithlokum". 

You cannot even compare his Qalb and the quloob of rest of humanity. 

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23 minutes ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

Hmmn, I see. I need to think about this further @wmehar2.

also cosider 32:15

The only people who truly believe in our revelations are those who fall prostrate upon hearing them. They glorify and praise their lord, without any arrogance."

They heard the verses of Allah , because of Allah's profoundness and fell upon prostration  in hearing them. it wasnt Oh Muhammads telling us, it must be true.

It was Allah's profound revelation. 

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16 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

He is purported to be a man, who is fallible.   in 41:6,  his character may not be fallable, that may be argued.  But man invariably make mistakes. 

Muhammad may be infallible as a character or personality who means only but well, but it doesn't detract himself as a man like Adam AS, and others who do make mistakes. 

According to whom? The Quran? It has been said that Prophets and Imams don't make the same mistakes as the average man.

Here is the definition of being infallible by understood by Shia:

Quote

Infallibility

By definition, the term fallible means capable of making an error. As such, the term infallible, where ‘in’ means not, means incapable of error or mistakes. By contrast, al-'Isma (of the Prophets) means that God has protected them by virtue of their pure soul, and by helping them with resistance, tranquility and blessings, thus making them Ma’soum. In reference to the Prophet of Islam, the Qur’an says:

وَاللَّهُ يَعْصِمُكَ مِنَ النَّاسِ

….God will protect you from people… (5:67)

Due to the nature of their creation, angels are incapable of committing sin, because they lack the human desires and the power of choice. This act can best be described by using the following analogies. A human who is born blind is incapable of having a lustful look simply because he lacks the ability (in this case, eyesight) to do so.

Being incapable of committing this sin makes the blind person infallible in this regard, but not Ma’soum, as they have no discretion or choice in the matter. Similarly, an infant is incapable of committing adultery because his potency is not yet developed. Incapacity in this sense is not a virtue. An infant is not worthy of praise for its chastity. We only admire the one who, although was capable of indulging in the sin, was able to control and protect himself against it.

Prophets, like any other human, by virtue enjoy the blessing of freewill, and hence are potentially capable of committing a sin. By applying the term al-'Isma to the Prophet, we do not mean that they are infallible or incapable of making a mistake (as in the case of angels). Rather, they are capable of indulging in the sin, but are able to control and protect themselves against it. This reasoning is part of the solution to the argument posed by our Christian brethren, when they ask ‘how can a human be infallible?’. Despite the fact that, ironically, Catholics believe in the infallibility of the Pope.

Nonetheless, as the term ‘infallibility’ is widely used I shall also provisionally use the term for the translation of ‘al-'Isma’ until I suggest a more accurate translation.

As stated, by definition, ‘infallibility’ in Islam does not mean incapability of committing sin or erring (such as in the realm of angels). Infallibility in this sense is not a virtue and is in conflict with the human nature of free will. Hosham, the student of Imam Sadiq (as) in theology says,

“I asked Imam Sadiq (as) about the meaning of ‘infallibility’ in the realm of humans and he replied:

‘The Infallible means he who by the will of God abstains absolutely from all that is forbidden. Indeed Allah the almighty said: Whoever holds firmly to Allah, then he is indeed guided to the Right Path.’”

Therefore ‘infallibility’ in the realm of humankind means the infallible person enjoys a divine inspiration, by which he voluntarily yet absolutely protects himself against any sin or error. Thus, practically, it is impossible for a Ma’soum to commit a sin or make a mistake.

A very liberal example for understanding the infallibility is when you adapt a good habit as your second nature. For instance, it’s become very natural for you to refrain from drinking human urine. It is your insight and certain knowledge about the harmfulness of the urine that not only protects you from drinking it, but even to hear about it sounds disgusting. Thus if you enjoy the insight into, for example, the harms of drinking alcohol, the same behavior will be observed.

يَا أَيُّهَا الرَّسُولُ بَلِّغْ مَا أُنزِلَ إِلَيْكَ مِن رَّبِّكَ ۖ وَإِن لَّمْ تَفْعَلْ فَمَا بَلَّغْتَ رِسَالَتَهُ ۚ وَاللَّهُ يَعْصِمُكَ مِنَ النَّاسِ ۗ إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يَهْدِي الْقَوْمَ الْكَافِرِينَ - 5:67

Here's the ayah above in it's entirety, I think we should focus on this but before we do, read this:

Quote

Only Ma’soum can represent God

When you choose someone to represent you in a matter it is a matter of common sense that you choose someone whose qualities you trust in the matters that he is representing you. Thus, nearly all historians and the interpreters of the Qur’an narrated that the Prophet of Islam (S) selected and dispatched only Imam Ali (as) to represent him in delivering the first Ayat of Chapter 9 of the holy Qur’an to the infidels of Mecca. His reason for that selection was ‘None shall deliver this save one who is from me and I am from him’.

Prophets are the messengers of God and His representative to mankind. Thus, God will not select the sinful people or those who are prone to sins or mistake to deliver the divine message. It is also impossible for sinful people to be able to become the recipient of a revelation, as this requires a thorough purification.

In other words, Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى chose Muhammad (saws) because of this.^

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26 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

You need to elaborate this "everything".

A fallible person can err in "something", somewhere in his life.

لَقَدْ كَانَ لَكُمْ فِي رَسُولِ اللَّهِ أُسْوَةٌ حَسَنَةٌ لِّمَن كَانَ يَرْجُو اللَّهَ وَالْيَوْمَ الْآخِرَ وَذَكَرَ اللَّهَ كَثِيرًا

33:21

As I already advised you couple of days ago, make a new thread and discuss your understanding of phrase "basharun mithlokum". 

You cannot even compare his Qalb and the quloob of rest of humanity. 

 33:21, does not say it is the best pattern for you, or that you must follow this pattern.

Suppose we could open up another discussion and five/delve deeper into this.

 

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14 minutes ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

According to whom? The Quran? It has been said that Prophets and Imams don't make the same mistakes as the average man.

Here is the definition of being infallible by understood by Shia:

يَا أَيُّهَا الرَّسُولُ بَلِّغْ مَا أُنزِلَ إِلَيْكَ مِن رَّبِّكَ ۖ وَإِن لَّمْ تَفْعَلْ فَمَا بَلَّغْتَ رِسَالَتَهُ ۚ وَاللَّهُ يَعْصِمُكَ مِنَ النَّاسِ ۗ إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يَهْدِي الْقَوْمَ الْكَافِرِينَ - 5:67

Here's the ayah above in it's entirety, I think we should focus on this but before we do, read this:

In other words, Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى chose Muhammad (saws) because of this.^

He created Muhammad, but it seems we agree.  We can argue Muhammad is infallible by virtue, character who only means well.

To Never knowingly sin like in case of a few prophets in Quran.

likely it stands to reasons the mistakes they make from people are different, but mistakes made nevertheless.

However,

Or have they not looked at the realm of the heavens and the earth and all things which God has created, and that their time may be drawing near? Which hadith after this (Quran), do they believe in? 7:185

 

This is another argument against Ma3soom/imams and other literature in Hadith.  Unless the imams only taught from quran and were subjected to altering of their teachings. 

Is it wrong to believe in Quran only after this verse?

you refer to 5:67 in the post, however 

O Messenger, announce that which has been revealed to you from your Lord, and if you do not, then you have not conveyed His message.

The first part of the verse,  announce what has heen revealed.  I would think anything more or less, is not conveying the message.

 

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2 hours ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

Say (O Muhammad), "I do not say to you that the treasures of God are in my possession, nor do I know the unseen, nor do I say to you that I am an angel. I only follow what is revealed to me." Say, "Is the blind and the seer the same? Do you not reflect?" 6:50

 

.."Say I only follow what is revealed to me."

Would Allah command Muhammad to say a lie?

Muhammad does not follow his own infallible self, nor does Muhammad conceive his own interpretation of Quran, because it is clear and plain.

not quite, "I only follow what is revealed to me based on how I understand it"

I want to only follow what was revealed too.  Key operating word, "only"

 

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Salam brother @wmehar2,

Been following this discussion with intrigue. It has been a good discussion. I needed to ask you a few sensitive questions regarding your faith and background. Could you kindly PM me? Since I can't yet as I haven't posted enough on the forum to be an advanced member. Thanks.

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2 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

Would Allah command Muhammad to say a lie?

No, it would be a contradiction of these ayahs: 

تَنزِيلٌ مِّن رَّبِّ الْعَالَمِينَ - 69:43

وَلَوْ تَقَوَّلَ عَلَيْنَا بَعْضَ الْأَقَاوِيلِ - 69:44

لَأَخَذْنَا مِنْهُ بِالْيَمِينِ - 69:45

ثُمَّ لَقَطَعْنَا مِنْهُ الْوَتِينَ - 69:46

فَمَا مِنكُم مِّنْ أَحَدٍ عَنْهُ حَاجِزِينَ - 69:47

وَإِنَّهُ لَتَذْكِرَةٌ لِّلْمُتَّقِينَ - 69:48

وَإِنَّا لَنَعْلَمُ أَنَّ مِنكُم مُّكَذِّبِينَ - 69:49

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3 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

33:21, does not say it is the best pattern for you, or that you must follow this pattern.

Surah Al-Ahzab, Verse 21:

لَّقَدْ كَانَ لَكُمْ فِي رَسُولِ اللَّهِ أُسْوَةٌ حَسَنَةٌ لِّمَن كَانَ يَرْجُو اللَّهَ وَالْيَوْمَ الْآخِرَ وَذَكَرَ اللَّهَ كَثِيرًا

Certainly you have in the Apostle of Allah an excellent exemplar for him who hopes in Allah and the latter day and remembers Allah much.

(English - Shakir)

Not only to follow (itteb'aa), we are commanded to OBEY him. What about this command of Allah:

Surah An-Nisa, Verse 80:

مَّن يُطِعِ الرَّسُولَ فَقَدْ أَطَاعَ اللَّهَ وَمَن تَوَلَّىٰ فَمَا أَرْسَلْنَاكَ عَلَيْهِمْ حَفِيظًا

Whoever obeys the Apostle, he indeed obeys Allah, and whoever turns back, so We have not sent you as a keeper over them.

(English - Shakir)

 

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1 hour ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

No, it would be a contradiction of these ayahs: 

تَنزِيلٌ مِّن رَّبِّ الْعَالَمِينَ - 69:43

وَلَوْ تَقَوَّلَ عَلَيْنَا بَعْضَ الْأَقَاوِيلِ - 69:44

لَأَخَذْنَا مِنْهُ بِالْيَمِينِ - 69:45

ثُمَّ لَقَطَعْنَا مِنْهُ الْوَتِينَ - 69:46

فَمَا مِنكُم مِّنْ أَحَدٍ عَنْهُ حَاجِزِينَ - 69:47

وَإِنَّهُ لَتَذْكِرَةٌ لِّلْمُتَّقِينَ - 69:48

وَإِنَّا لَنَعْلَمُ أَنَّ مِنكُم مُّكَذِّبِينَ - 69:49

Yes!

So let's think about this.

Would Muhammad need to insert his own interpretation and explain the message, or should there be one one singular line of logic that is the message that Muhammad's only job is to deliver the message?

"Thine is ONLY to convey (the message)." 42:48

"..thine is BUT conveyance (of the message)." 13:40

"The duty of the messenger is ONLY to convey (the message)" 5:99

[Quran 75:16-19] Do not move your tongue to hasten it. It is we who will collect it into Quran. Once we recite it, you shall follow such a Quran. Then it is WE who will explain it.

----**We who explain it**-----

[Quran 55:1-2] The Most Gracious. Teacher of the Quran.

[Quran 6:114-115] Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed? Those who received the scripture recognize that it has been revealed from your Lord, truthfully. You shall not harbor any doubt. The word of your Lord is complete, in truth and justice. Nothing shall abrogate His words. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.

[Quran 10:37] This Quran could not possibly be authored by other than God. It confirms all previous messages, and provides a fully detailed scripture. It is infallible, for it comes from the Lord of the universe.

An infallible Quran, needs no explanation from fallible hadith, it's travesty if Hadith are what is needed to explain it.  Are we accusing of Allah of not being able to/being incompetent give a clear message? Astaghferullah!

And ALL Hadith, I would think everyone here can agree, are fallible.  Sahih/Authentic Hadith included, (why Authentic, let's say the chain of narrations comes are assumed to come from "credible" people if someone didn't already make it up to put in their mouths, the overall meaning of a hadith may be relatively the same but the way someone remembered how it was said, will be different)

Plus, we have no real way of knowing what was really said as we weren't there.  It's just graded "authentic by fallible human being's criteria"

Edited by wmehar2

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8 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

Not only to follow (itteb'aa), we are commanded to OBEY him. 

Here is the command to "follow":

Surah Aal-e-Imran, Verse 31:

قُلْ إِن كُنتُمْ تُحِبُّونَ اللَّهَ فَاتَّبِعُونِي يُحْبِبْكُمُ اللَّهُ وَيَغْفِرْ لَكُمْ ذُنُوبَكُمْ وَاللَّهُ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ

Say: If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

(English - Shakir)

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32 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

Surah An-Nisa, Verse 80:

مَّن يُطِعِ الرَّسُولَ فَقَدْ أَطَاعَ اللَّهَ وَمَن تَوَلَّىٰ فَمَا أَرْسَلْنَاكَ عَلَيْهِمْ حَفِيظًا

Whoever obeys the Apostle, he indeed obeys Allah, and whoever turns back, so We have not sent you as a keeper over them

Obeying Messenger = Obeying Allah

As I've pointed out before, the messenger is the deliverer of the message,  obeying the messenger is distinct from obeying the prophet, different from obeying Muhammad as a person, as made consistent in Quran when Allah refers to Muhammad the man, the prophet, a believer, messenger etc., differently in all those separate capacities. 

When Muhammad is the messenger, he is delivering the message and must be obeyed. 

At least that's how I'm reading it all.

We may open up another thread to discuss, if you'd like.

Edited by wmehar2

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52 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

Would Muhammad need to insert his own interpretation and explain the message, or should there be one one singular line of logic that is the message that Muhammad's only job is to deliver the message?

Don't forget showing examples of how to apply the message to the believers, there was more to Muhammad (saws) and Allah's سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى mission for him than simply delivering a message. 

By the way, he (saws) would not, it would be a contradiction of 53:2-4.

Quote

مَا ضَلَّ صَاحِبُكُمْ وَمَا غَوَىٰ - 53:2

وَمَا يَنطِقُ عَنِ الْهَوَىٰ - 53:3

إِنْ هُوَ إِلَّا وَحْيٌ يُوحَىٰ - 53:4

47 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

We may open up another thread to discuss, if you'd like.

Sounds good to me, the thread has been seriously derailed by our discussion.

47 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

As I've pointed out before, the messenger is the deliverer of the message,  obeying the messenger is distinct from obeying the prophet, different from obeying Muhammad as a person, as made consistent in Quran when Allah refers to Muhammad the man, the prophet, a believer, messenger etc., differently in all those separare capacities. 

I don't know about that, I don't think that is the correct way to look at it, @wmehar2

52 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

An infallible Quran, needs no explaination; if fallible hadith are what is needed to explain it.

Hence we should be wary of accepting blindly hadith: If doesn't contradict the Quran, accept it but like you mentioned earlier, there is no harm in reading them for historical context.

We should be also be wary of using our personal views on the Quran,lest we put too much faith in ourselves. We are just as fallible as the hadith.

Edited by Gaius I. Caesar

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39 minutes ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

I don't know about that, I don't think that is the correct way to look at it, @wmehar2

 

39 minutes ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

We should be also be wary of using our personal views on the Quran,lest we put too much faith in ourselves. We are just as fallible as the hadith.

Definitely could discuss this more unless we've exhausted all talking/discussion points.

I went all out on my thesis on this idea below, but I'm willing to see contending/counter arguments.

And I think 9:50 [34:50  not 9:50] was used in conjunction in my argument somewhere in that long essay.

9:50 [[ 34:50]]*

Say: If I err, I err only against my own soul, and if I follow a right direction, it is because of what my Lord reveals to me; surely He is Hearing, Nigh.

Muhammad Admits (by Allah's command) he only does what is right from Allah's guidance/revelation.  Not from his own personal wisdom/conscience or sense of right and wrong.  He used his reasoning as  human like we are attempting here to reconcile Quran.  And we may screw up in that but if our hearts in the right place, Allah is forgiving, and of course we are striving for the best result.  If someone is not sincere and looking to do justify their own personal agenda, we can agree Quran only or Hadith + Quran wouldn't save or help that person much less bring them to a right path.

Can anyone of us for example argue those in ISIS, and other terrorist factions were sincere in understanding their Quran or Religion,  I can actually make an argument the Hadith they followed is what screwed them up, their extreme interpretation and false narrations they choose to follow above others.  They're an example (Ammar Nakshawani would agree with me) of Hadith system failing us.

 

********** correction it is 34:50** not 9:50

 

@Salsabeel 

the link is my response to "What else you think he is? You think he is a messenger only for times when he recites the revelation? You need to correct the direction of your thinking!"

Edited by wmehar2
correction it is 34:50** not 9:50

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52 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

When Muhammad is the messenger, he is delivering the message and must be obeyed. 

 

وَمَا مُحَمَّدٌ إِلاَّ رَسُولٌ

What else you think he is? You think he is a messenger only for times when he recites the revelation? You need to correct the direction of your thinking!

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7 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

And I think 9:50  was used in conjunction in my argument somewhere in that long essay.

9:50

Say: If I err, I err only against my own soul, and if I follow a right direction, it is because of what my Lord reveals to me; surely He is Hearing, Nigh.

Surah At-Taubah, Verse 50:
إِن تُصِبْكَ حَسَنَةٌ تَسُؤْهُمْ وَإِن تُصِبْكَ مُصِيبَةٌ يَقُولُوا قَدْ أَخَذْنَا أَمْرَنَا مِن قَبْلُ وَيَتَوَلَّوا وَّهُمْ فَرِحُونَ

If good befalls you, it grieves them, and if hardship afflicts you, they say: Indeed we had taken care of our affair before; and they turn back and are glad.
(English - Shakir)

I am expecting correct reference from you. 

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2 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

Surah At-Taubah, Verse 50:
إِن تُصِبْكَ حَسَنَةٌ تَسُؤْهُمْ وَإِن تُصِبْكَ مُصِيبَةٌ يَقُولُوا قَدْ أَخَذْنَا أَمْرَنَا مِن قَبْلُ وَيَتَوَلَّوا وَّهُمْ فَرِحُونَ

If good befalls you, it grieves them, and if hardship afflicts you, they say: Indeed we had taken care of our affair before; and they turn back and are glad.
(English - Shakir)

I am expecting correct reference from you. 

@Salsabeel I was going to say, I thought that I was on the wrong surah.

@wmehar2 read 9:50 to 9:60, I don't see how it defends your argument, I am confused.

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8 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

Surah At-Taubah, Verse 50:
إِن تُصِبْكَ حَسَنَةٌ تَسُؤْهُمْ وَإِن تُصِبْكَ مُصِيبَةٌ يَقُولُوا قَدْ أَخَذْنَا أَمْرَنَا مِن قَبْلُ وَيَتَوَلَّوا وَّهُمْ فَرِحُونَ

If good befalls you, it grieves them, and if hardship afflicts you, they say: Indeed we had taken care of our affair before; and they turn back and are glad.
(English - Shakir)

I am expecting correct reference from you. 

@Gaius I. Caesar

I'm so sorry,  I apologize.  I must have made  mistake when compiling that long response.

34:50

If I err, I err only against my own soul, and if I follow a right direction, it is because of what my Lord reveals to me; surely He is Hearing, Nigh.

Perusing the Book over and over with my notes is awfully messy here. =\

Edited by wmehar2

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1 minute ago, wmehar2 said:

@Gaius I. Caesar

I'm so sorry,  I apologize.  I must have made  mistake when compiling that long response.

34:50

If I err, I err only against my own soul, and if I follow a right direction, it is because of what my Lord reveals to me; surely He is Hearing, Nigh.

Ah ok, shukran.

Read this 34:47-53, what are your thoughts?

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13 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

34:50

If I err, I err only against my own soul, and if I follow a right direction, it is because of what my Lord reveals to me; surely He is Hearing, Nigh.

This is in reply to verse 43. It does not mean that the Holy Prophet ever erred, because Quran expressively says in Najm: 2 to 4: "Errs not your companion, nor is he led astray, nor he speaks of (his own) desire. It is naught but a revelation revealed (unto him)." It means the prophet was infallible. In several other places the Quran asserts that the Holy Prophet only followed the divine revelation under every circumstance. 

Surah Al-Anaam, Verse 161:

قُلْ إِنَّنِي هَدَانِي رَبِّي إِلَىٰ صِرَاطٍ مُّسْتَقِيمٍ دِينًا قِيَمًا مِّلَّةَ إِبْرَاهِيمَ حَنِيفًا وَمَا كَانَ مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ

Say: Surely, (as for) me, my Lord has guided me to the right path; (to) a most right religion, the faith of Ibrahim the upright one, and he was not of the polytheists.

(English - Shakir)

Surah Al-Anaam, Verse 162:

قُلْ إِنَّ صَلَاتِي وَنُسُكِي وَمَحْيَايَ وَمَمَاتِي لِلَّهِ رَبِّ الْعَالَمِينَ

Say. Surely my prayer and my sacrifice and my life and my death are (all) for Allah, the Lord of the worlds;

(English - Shakir)

His every action/deed was for lillahe Rabbul Aalameen. 

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