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In the Name of God بسم الله

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13 hours ago, father said:

i dont blame you. it is people like him who spread misguidance by saying things like these. ijma doesnt come into existence by somebody saying there is ijma. and ijma only comes where there is not other daleel. i am telling you there are incorrect ahadith in bukhari. and what you understand as sahih and what people understand as sahih are two different things. the only reason i replied to this is because it is apparently a good reply by you. but it isnt. i suggest you stop taking your information from such salafis.

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بسم الله الرحمن الرحیم السلام علیکم   I'm sorry to say almost all of the posts responding to the OP are irrelevant or conjectural and not at all how the best Imami believers argued for

[5] . Al-Bokhari, Abou Abdullah al-Ja'fi, Al-Juma al-Sahih al-Mukhtasar, v.14, p. 253, Dar ibn Kathir, Beirut, third volume, 1407 AH   https://muflihun.com/bukhari/89/299 https://sunna

subhan Allah.. everything makes sense and is logical in shia hadiths..  does it make sense that the army of the caliph of islam kills the grandson of the Prophet saaw?

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On 10/19/2017 at 2:55 PM, :

بسم الله الرحمن الرحیم

السلام علیکم

 

I'm sorry to say almost all of the posts responding to the OP are irrelevant or conjectural and not at all how the best Imami believers argued for their faith.

*

The Imamis begin with the guidance of 'aql - and 'aql tells them what is reasonable to believe. And 'aql tells them that 'aql does not communicate all that God wills on earth, that further communication is needed which only revelation can provide, that an all-knowing almighty God communicates with trustworthy men, that God does not abandon earth without men with whom He communicates His will

As for the details, 'aql is quiet and miracles and prophecies and appointments are relied on instead. So we find among the men that communicate with God such men that may live for a thousand years like Noah or be unrecognised like Joseph or have a hidden birth like Moses or be silenced and overcome by enemies like Aaron or be reappearing in the future like Jesus or escape into a cave for fear of life like Muhammad, or a combination of these like al-Mahdi - peace and blessings upon them all.

With these 'aqli premises and these non-'aqli evidence, a person seeks the will of God. They will find it in the Imamiyya, with their belief in the communication of God with a trustworthy man at all times (excluding Sunnism and Zaydism) and their belief in the continuation of the Muhammadi shari'a (excluding mainstream Isma'ilism), and their records of appointment of successorship from Imam to Imam, the prophecy of the twelve caliphs till Doomsday, and, of lesser importance but still relevant, the miracles attributed to these saintly figures.

It is only after the above process that the Imami literature is embraced as a whole - only after the premises and evidence undergird the Imamate of the twelve.

@just a muslim

و علیکم السلام

are you saying that you believe in imamah because of your aql? does that mean if my aql doesnt lead me to imamah, i am free of sin? if you are simply inspired by ammar nakshwani in this matter, i would say that i have heard him a lot about this. and find his logic faulty.

On 10/19/2017 at 3:19 PM, shiaman14 said:

Can we agree that the exact same question would be applicable to you or any sunni? Why do you trust Sahih Bukhari or Sahih Muslim? Because someone told you too?

Bukhari was born 200 years after the Prophet. How can you be 100% sure he didn't make up everything in his book? A stone running away with Prophet Musa's clothes could just be his perverse thinking. No?

By all means please do. While you are at it, please reference all the huruf it was revealed under and how Caliph Uthman was diviniely guided to consolidate 7 into 1.

yes and no. it would be applicable to sunni ahadith. but like i said, there are ahadith in sunni books which can be authenticated outwardly, and thus gives some validity to the literature as a whole. 

brother. bukhari being born 200 years after the prophet is a terrible argument for you. specially since your books authors were born atleast 300 years after the prophet. and while we are at it, the ahadith in sunni literature have a continuous sanad back to the prophet pbuh. what i have noticed in the shia literature is that the hadith goes back to an imam, and the imam narrates what happened at the time of the prophet. how does the imam know what happened back then? they were told by their parent? isnt that just an assumption? isnt it possible somebody else told them the story? somebody unreliable? im only saying these things because you brought the bukhari 200 years thing. as for the question as to how i can be sure he didnt make up everything in his book, then i say 3 things. 1. i am trying to ask you the same thing about your books. 2. there are ahadith in the books which nobody could have said or fabricated even 500 years after the prophet pbuh. 3. i believe if i dont trust the sunni version, i cant have the quran. simple as that. 

as for the ahruf, i have been reading into it long before joining shiachat. if i dont find a reasonable explanation, one of two things will happen. 1. i will reject the hadith of 7 ahruf. and see what that implies about judging other ahadith. 2. i will reject the enitre sunni literature as unreliable. so, please dont think that i come here with a bias towards sunnis.

On 10/19/2017 at 3:34 PM, Sindbad05 said:

Ok if this is unacceptable to you then get milk bottle of any animal's milk which you like and divide it into two pots. In one pot, reduce the level of milk to add egg yolk that's pure protein and then check weight of both samples. Milk is same but only one is rich in protein and fats,  you will get higher Weight of egg yolk containing milk.

ya akhi. the story you mentioned isnt talking about animal milk, is it? it talks about a woman's milk. unless you can test that, and prove that on average, the milk for a boy is approximately twice as heavy as that for the girl, and not just the difference in components, you have nothing.

On 10/19/2017 at 3:49 PM, Sindbad05 said:

@just a muslim you saw that I proved to you the tradition is true through science as well but you are still doubtful about it. You asked for reference, it's here in three parts.

Screenshot_2017-10-20-00-46-23.png

i read the link. and am surprised you base your knowledge on this. 

1. this is not a hadith. it is a fairy tale with NO sanad. people tell this because the follow their desires. such stuff exists among sunnis as well. so, please dont quote things like this again.

2. you really wanna rely on this? this says the women is half in EVERYTHING. even in AQL. really? REALLY? 

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On 10/20/2017 at 1:43 AM, shadow_of_light said:

What makes a narration more likely authentic, is not if it is a shia hadith or a sunni one. It is its content and whether it is narrated by reliable people or not.

yes. i am saying, the shia and sunnis differ as to who is reliable and who is not. for example, there are ahadith from a narrator X. the shia say he is not reliable. sunnis say he is. which one do you believe and why?

On 10/20/2017 at 4:57 AM, eThErEaL said:

Religion (whether it is ultimately from God or whether man created it) is believed in through social conditioning.  There is just no way around it.  For example, Democracy, Darwinism, Human Rights, Liberalism, America, Islam, Judaism, Living-to-Gamble, Living-to-Acquire-Wealth, Hedonistic-Lifestyle, are all religions.  Every way of life is a religion (whether or not you want to call it that or not).  Adopting a particular religion is all a matter of being socially conditioned.  Even if one converts, it can possibly be mere social conditioning.  There are no absolutes here; most of the time one isn't just a Muslim, or just a Jew or Just a Hedonist, or just an "American".  Most of us are a blend of these religions, but we end up calling ourselves by whatever we fancy so that we can fit in with our particular surroundings.  A person who calls himself a "Muslim" may be living as a Muslim for a fraction of his day (for example, when he sincerely prays, or when he sincerely fasts, or when he sincerely follows the Sunnah, or when he is sincerely kind to his neighbor etc..). but for the remainder of his day, he might be a hedonist and therefore a follower of the religion of hedonism.  He might only be calling himself a Muslim because it just works out better for him in society or with the community or family he is affiliated with.    He might have excellent reasons for why he calls himself a Muslim, but the motives for why he even uses excellent reasoning might ultimately be to preserve his identity as a Muslim.  In any case, everyone seems to have more or less good reasons for their religion.  

ofcourse everyone has reasons. doesnt mean they are correct reasons. otherwise the non muslims also have their reasons for believing in whatever the do believe in. doesnt make them right.

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On 10/19/2017 at 5:05 PM, just a muslim said:

salam all. im back with one of my questions.

since sunnis and shias both agree on the quran, our main difference is due to our different hadith literature. hence, most of my questions revolve around hadith literature. and i know there have been questions asked previously about why should one choose sunni/shia hadith over the other, but i ask it again because i ask from a different perspective. and if any old member finds that i am repeating some old post, please link me to that post so i can benefit from it.

okay so, before you read on, please try to be objective. look at it like this. if you believe you are on the truth, then your arguments should always be superior to me, and you should be able to prove hujjah upon me no matter which sect i belong to, and that hujjah should be from my own sources. or at the very least, from sources which we both agree on. 

so, shias have ahadith. going back to the infallibles. and even though it wont matter, but let's not call them infallibles for now. FOR NOW. i repeat, FOR NOW. dont take this to your heart and try to move past it okay? okay. so, the ahadith go back to the imams. and there is a chain for every hadith. correct? so, my question is: why do you trust what the narrator is saying? because he is thiqa/honest/truthful/reliable/trustworthy? who told you that? your books of rijal? why do you trust those? why trust whatever is written in them? why trust the authors of those books? for all you know, and please hold tight to your seats and try not to lose it as i dont mean any disrespect or offence, it could be the work of the devil, men who had no good intention and just wanted to create division among the ummah? how do you know it wasnt that? why do you trust them?

P.S. this is not some form of hidden attempt to "prove" shiism wrong and give dawah to sunnism. no. i am just trying to understand why you guys believe what you believe. 

salam bro

and i'm not in anyway, trying to change ur current belief system simply because of this Quranic verse

[16:25] Let them bear, on the Day of Judgment, their own burdens in full, and also (something) of the burdens

of those without knowledge, whom they misled. Alas, how grievous the burdens they will bear!

having said that, the Holy Quran reminds those who follow others

[2:166] (On the day) when those who were followed disown those who followed (them), and they behold the doom, and all their aims collapse with them..

[2:167] And those who were but followers will say: If a return were possible for us, we would disown them even

as they have disowned us. Thus will Allah show them their own deeds as anguish for them, and they will not

emerge from the Fire.”

 

will the imams from Ahul Bait renounce their true followers as per [2:166]? i don't think so.

can imams (other than them), give any guarantee (supported by Quran and Hadith) they will not renounce their followers as per [2:166]? i have yet to see one.

i believe, even if u r successful in proving shia islam is "faullty", it does not prove urs is correct.

let's make peace with each other and confront the real enemy of islam.

with regards to ur question, imam ali's (as) saying about 4 type of narrators is good enuf for me. how do i know this is really his (as) saying? it's faith, i guess.

thus, whatever ahadith contradict the Holy Quran, i keep them aside. i don't have the luxury to do hadith science.

 

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23 hours ago, father said:
Shia have another set of books which are authentic but never ever 100% authentic since the chain of narration are taken from fallible people. There are four major books of Shia Hadith which are least in error, they are called 'Kutub al Arba' (Four books).
 
Four Major Shia Hadith book (Kutub al Arba) are:
 
1) Al Kafi (The Sufficient) by Mohammed bin Yaqub Kulaini, it has 15176 narrations/ Ahaadith.
 
2) Man La Yahdruhu Al Faqih (I am my own Jurist) by Shaikh Saduq Mohammed bin Ali, it has 9044 narrations/ Ahaadith
 
3) Tahdiib Al Ahkaam (The Refinement of Laws) by Shaikh Abu Ja'far Tusi, it has 13590 narrations/ Ahaadith
 
4) Al Istibsaar (Foresight) by Shaikh Abu Ja'far Tusi, it has 5511 narrations/ Ahaadith
 
Other Shia Hadith books are:
 
5) Bihar Al Anwaar (Ocean of Luminescence)
 
6) Wasaail Ush Shia (Details for Shia)
 
7) Haqq Al Yaqin (Reality of Certainty)
 
8) Ain al Hayaat (Essence of Life)
 
9) Kitab Sulaym bin Qays (Book of Sulaym bin Qays)
 
10) Sahifa Sajjadiya (Psalms of Sajjad/ 4th Imam), it is a prayer book.
 
11) Nahjul Balagha (Peak of Eloquence), compiled by Sayyed Radi, the book is collections of sermons, letters and quotations of 1st Imam Ali bin Abu Talib (as)

How many narrations out of these books are truly authentic? can you provide the number of authentic narrations for these books, atleast for kutub arba?

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10 minutes ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

How many narrations out of these books are truly authentic? can you provide the number of authentic narrations for these books, atleast for kutub arba?

The Authenticity of the Narrations of these Compilations

 

Many of the leading scholars of the Ahlus Sunnah have stated that no sect has lied as much as the Rafidah and they are most vehement in rejecting the truth.[51] When Ibn al Mutahhar said, “They have their narrations which were reported by their reliable narrators,” Ibn Taymiyyah responded:

 

How did you people arrive at the conclusion that those who reported these narrations in the past were reliable narrators? You people have not met them and you do not have any knowledge regarding them, as you have no books in which their details are recorded, by means of which you could have differentiated between the reliable narrators and the others. You also do not have isnads by means of which you could have learnt who the narrators are.[52]

 

Did the scholars of Islam know about these compilations? The reality is that the Muslim ummah had no famous compilations and sources of ahadith besides the sources of the Muslims, which were in the forms of Sihah(authentic compilations), Sunan (compiled on the format of Fiqhi chapters) and Masanid (compiled according to teachers or narrators). According to my research, the scholars of Islam, who dealt with the matter of the Rawafid, such as al Ash’ari, Ibn Taymiyyah, and Ibn Hazm did not mention any of these books. There is even no mention of their most incriminating book, Usul al Kafi, even though the author died in the year 329 A.H. Was this because these compilations were passed around between them in a secretive manner, or, did the scholars of Islam consider them too insignificant to pay attention to? A third possibility is that these books were all authored during the reign of the Safawid Dynasty and thereafter attributed to their former scholars.

Usul al Kafi contains a text which indicates that the books of narrations of the Shia were circulated amongst themselves in a secretive manner. This is why the isnads are not complete, as that was the demand of Taqiyyah (according to them). The exact text of al Kafi is:

 

إن مشايخنا رووا عن أبي جعفر وأبي عبد الله – عليهما السلام – وكانت التقية شديدة فكتموا كتبهم ولم ترو عنهم، فلما ماتوا صارت الكتب إلينا. (قال أحد أئمتهم): حدثوا بها فإنها حق

Our scholars have narrated from Abu Jafar and Abu ‘Abdullah. Taqiyyah was at a very high level, so they hid their books and they were not narrated from. When they passed away, their books came into our possession. (One of their Imams says) Narrate it, as it is the truth.[53]

 

Other narrations state that these texts should be hidden and they should not be spread among those who do not deserve it.[54] During the era of al Suyuti, one of the Rawafid began calling towards practising upon the Qur’an alone, and leaving out the Sunnah. In refutation of this call, al Suyuti wrote his book, al Ihtijaj bi al Sunnah. The question that this raises is, why did this Rafidi not call towards their compilations? These kind of acts lead us to think that they were hiding their books. Nonetheless, why were their books not as widespread and common as they have become in the recent years?

Perhaps the first time that one of their four fundamental books were pointed towards was when the book al Nawaqid fi al Radd ‘ala al Rawafid was written, in which it was stated that among the nonsensical ideas held by the Rawafid was that they rejected the authentic books of hadith which the entire ummah accepted. In contrast to that, they accept four such books in which many lies have been recorded alongside a few narrations and sayings of the Imams.[55] The author of al Nawaqid (Makhdum al Shirazi) belonged to the tenth century. However, just that he mentioned these books does not necessarily mean that they were out in the public, as he lived amongst the Rafidah. Thus, he was forced to seek his knowledge from them. This is how he learnt of their matters which were hidden from others, as stated by him.

As for the authenticity of these books according to them, there are two views regarding this. One group believes that every narration in these books is authentic and every letter was said by the Imams. The other group that there are authentic as well as unauthentic narrations therein. Their scholar, al Mamaqani states:

 

إن كون مجموع ما بين دفتي كل واحد من الكتب الأربعة من حيث المجموع متواتراً مما لا يعتريه شك ولا شبهة، بل هي عند التأمل فوق حد التواتر، ولكن هل هي متواترة بالنسبة إلى خصوص كل حديث وبعبارة أخرى هل كل حديث وكلمة بجميع حركاتها وسكناتها الإعرابية والبنائية، وبهذا الترتيب للكلمات والحروف على القطع أم لا؟ فالمعروف بين أصحابنا المجتهدين الثاني كما هو قضية عدها أخبار آحاد، واعتبارهم صحة سندها أو ما يقوم مقام الصحة، وجل الإخبار على الأول كما يقتضيه قولهم بوجوب العمل بالعلم، وأنها قطعية الصدور

The fact that whatever is between the covers of the four books, when looking at them as a whole, is mutawatir, is something that cannot be doubted. In fact, after pondering over it, they are above the level of Tawatur. However, is each one of the narrations mutawatir? In other words, is each narration, alphabet and diacritic (whether due that being its original diacritic or the diacritic that is a result of something else) in the order that these words and alphabets are, are they definite or not? The popular view amongst our Mujtahid scholars is the second one, as they classify narrations as ahad and they pay attention to the authenticity of isnad or whatever is equivalent to that. Most of the Akhbaris, however, hold the second opinion, as is the demand of their view that it is incumbent to practise upon knowledge and that all of them were definitely stated by (the Imams).[56]

 

The four fundamental books hold a greater status than the Qur’an in the sight of the Akhbaris. Thus, they accept the narrations therein in which the authority of the Qur’an is brought to question. They have made these books the basis of judging the Qur’an. This is open deviation and pure kufr. As for the Usulis, or the Mujtahids – as they call themselves – they believe that there are ahad narrations in these books, and they take a glance at the isnad when they wish to classify a narration. Jafar al Najafi – the leading scholar of the Imami Shia of his time,[57] writes in his book Kashf al Ghita regarding the authors of the four books:

 

والمحمدون الثلاثة كيف يعول في تحصيل العلم عليهم، وبعضهم يكذب رواية بعض.. ورواياتهم بعضها يضاد بعضاً.. ثم إن كتبهم قد اشتملت على أخبار يقطع بكذبها كأخبار التجسيم والتشبيه وقدم العالم، وثبوت المكان، والزمان

How can one rely on the three Muhammads when seeking knowledge? They belie the narrations of one-another. Even their narrations contradict one-another. Added to that, their books contain such narrations which are definite fabrications, such as the ones relating to anthropomorphism, tashbih (likening Allah to His creation), the universe always being in existence and establishing (or confining Allah to a) time and place.[58]

 

However, the authors of these four books have unequivocally stated in the introductions of their books that they have only quoted that which is authentic. Thus, the author of Kashf al Ghita explains:

 

فلابد من تخصيص ما ذكر في المقدمات أو تأويله على ضرب من المجازات أو الحمل على العدول عما فات، حيث ذكروا في تضاعيف كتبهم خلاف ما ذكروه في أوائلها

It is necessary specify that which was mentioned in the introductions or to interpret it to be a type of figurative speech or to believe that those which did not make the grade were ignored, as they quoted in their books that which contradicts their introductory statements.[59]

 

Thereafter, another objection is dealt with, which is far more difficult to answer compared to the previous ones, i.e. since these books were compiled from sources which were presented to the Imams, why did they not object to the fabrications that were found in them? In fact, Usul al Kafi was written during al Ghaybah al Sughra, due to which it was possible for the Imam to comment on the narrations therein, especially since the book was reportedly presented to him upon which he said that it is sufficient for the Shia. As for the author of Man la Yahdurhu al Faqih, he saw more than twenty years of al Ghaybah al Sughra.[60]

The author of Kashf al Ghita could find no answer to this besides Taqiyyah, an answer that is used by them when all else fails. He says:

 

وأنه لا يجب على الأئمة المبادرة إليهم بالإنكار ولا تمييز الخطأ من الصواب لمنع التقية المتفرعة على يوم السقيفة

It is not compulsory upon the Imams to hasten in reproaching them or to differentiate between the authentic and unauthentic, due to the prohibition of Taqiyyah which is based on the Day of Saqifah.[61]

 

A person may ask: Since the Usulis have adopted the methodology of authentication on the basis of isnads, do the Shia not have any expertise on the science of narrators and al Jarh wa al Ta’dil? The answer to this question is that after reading through their books on the subject, it becomes clear that they did not have a single book regarding this, until the fourth century, in which al Kashshi penned down a very brief book on the subject, which was of very little benefit. To make matters worse, he quoted in them contradictory reports on jarh and ta’dil.[62] Their available books on narrators are none the better. They only contain biographies of certain narrators,[63] and there are many mistakes and ambiguities in the names of the narrators, their fathers, agnomens, and titles.[64]

They had no books on the sciences and principles of hadith until Zayn al Din al ‘Amili[65] (d. 965 A.H.), who is referred to as al Shahid al Thani (the second martyr) appeared.[66] This is a fact that is admitted in the books of the Shia. Their scholar, al Ha’iri says:

 

ومن المعلومات التي لا يشك فيها أحد أنه لم يصنف في دراية الحديث من علمائنا قبل الشهيد الثاني وإنما هو من علوم العامة

Among the well known facts which is not doubted by anyone is that nothing was written regarding the principles of hadith by our scholars before al Shahid al Thani. It is from the sciences of the masses (i.e. the Ahlus Sunnah).[67]

 

Another point that will be discussed later is that they had never classified narrations (as authentic and unauthentic) until the seventh century. The author of al Tuhfah was of the opinion that they were motivated to write these books due to the amount of contradictions and incongruities that they had seen in their narrations. They then took help, in forming these principles, from the books of the Ahlus Sunnah.[68]

However, they also have some of their own principles which, as in all cases where they have chosen a view contrary to that of the Muslims, are misguidance through and through. One example of this is that they classify as reliable anyone who claims to have seen the awaited Mahdi in hiding, who did not ever exist.[69] They use this as evidence to prove that the narrator was extremely reliable, whereas the companionship of Nabi salla Llahu ‘alayhi wa sallam does not add to a person’s credentials in any way. In other words, they use lies and misguidance to establish that which they consider true and they consider the proofs of integrity to be signs of lies. There can be no end to the amazement of the one who sees this kind of ridiculousness.

Further, they consider as reliable people like al Kulayni – who narrated the fairy tales of Tahrif and added volumes to his book, al Kafi, by means of them. This is why al Kashani (in his Tafsir, al Safi[70]), al Nuri al Tabarsi (in Fasl al Khitab[71]) and Mahmud al Najafi al Tahrani (in Qawami’ al Fudul[72]) have stated that he was of the opinion that the Qur’an was adulterated. Abu Zahrah says, “This is from his beliefs. Thus he does not belong to (the religion of) those who face the Qiblah.”[73]

Ibn Mutahhar al Hilli, despite the above mentioned fact regarding al Majlisi, states that he is among the most reliable and accurate hadith scholars.[74] Reflect! They wholeheartedly accept the narrations of kuffar, but reject the narrations of Muslims. According to them, whoever does not belong to the Imamiyyah, his narrations can never be authentic – as will be discussed under the topic, ‘their definition of authentic’. The narrations of an Imami, even if he is disparaged by the Imam, are accepted. Ibn al Mutahhar al Hilli states:

 

الطعن في دين الرجل لا يوجب الطعن في حديثه

Disparagement of a man on the basis of religion does not discredit his narrations.[75]

 

If these are some of their standards, what will the condition of their narrators be?

 

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1 hour ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

So, you believe nothing (or very little percentage) is authentic in such books.

How much is authentic in numbers or percentage?

no i mean they cannot be 100 % the most authentic being al kafi having all chains of narrations back to imams i can say more than 90% correct

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1 hour ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

So, you believe nothing (or very little percentage) is authentic in such books.

How much is authentic in numbers or percentage?

by the way that was sunni prospective what they beleive i will come back with shia propective soon when i have the time

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2 hours ago, hoskot said:

i believe, even if u r successful in proving shia islam is "faullty", it does not prove urs is correct.

let's make peace with each other and confront the real enemy of islam.

with regards to ur question, imam ali's (as) saying about 4 type of narrators is good enuf for me. how do i know this is really his (as) saying? it's faith, i guess.

thus, whatever ahadith contradict the Holy Quran, i keep them aside. i don't have the luxury to do hadith science.

 

i am trying to eliminate all those "sects" which i find could possibly be true. by doing that, whatever i remain with, will be the truth. 

why do you have faith in that? 

and you know, the sunni belief is that if the hadith is sahih, you wont HAVE to check it against the quran. it is impossible that a sahih hadith will ever contradict the quran. 

i understand that. but i find the premises to be slightly biased. i mean, ill assume you were born a shia, would you still be doing that if you were born in a sunni family? if you werent, and are a convert, then you must have reason to have faith in all of it. and i would like to know what it is.

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4 hours ago, just a muslim said:

yes and no. it would be applicable to sunni ahadith. but like i said, there are ahadith in sunni books which can be authenticated outwardly, and thus gives some validity to the literature as a whole. 

Essentially what you are saying is that you believe in sunni books because you are sunni.

Here is a simple issue with ahadith. Bukhari has a lot of narrations from Abu Hurraira. Abu Hurraira was a known liar and even reprimanded by Caliph Umar. So authenticity goes out the door when discussing sunni literature unless of course a known liar is considered authentic.

4 hours ago, just a muslim said:

brother. bukhari being born 200 years after the prophet is a terrible argument for you. specially since your books authors were born atleast 300 years after the prophet. and while we are at it, the ahadith in sunni literature have a continuous sanad back to the prophet pbuh. what i have noticed in the shia literature is that the hadith goes back to an imam, and the imam narrates what happened at the time of the prophet. how does the imam know what happened back then? they were told by their parent? isnt that just an assumption? isnt it possible somebody else told them the story? somebody unreliable? im only saying these things because you brought the bukhari 200 years thing. as for the question as to how i can be sure he didnt make up everything in his book, then i say 3 things. 1. i am trying to ask you the same thing about your books. 2. there are ahadith in the books which nobody could have said or fabricated even 500 years after the prophet pbuh. 3. i believe if i dont trust the sunni version, i cant have the quran. simple as that. 

I am not making the argument that Bukhari is wrong simply because it was written 200 years after the Prophet. That is why we analyze each hadith on its own merit unlike my Sunni brothers who think that just because the book has the word Sahih (authentic) in it, then everything in it must be true. Hopefully you never pick up "Authentic Bible" or "Authentic Gita".

Any hadith that goes back to an Imam and then Prophet (saw) can be assumed to follow the Golden Chain. The veracity of the Imams is unquestionable even in Sunni literature.

1) that was my point. You are asking questions about Shia books when the exact thing applies to your books. Same answers???

2) Lol. Several people including Abu Hurraira were reprimanded for fake hadith. Pretty naive to think otherwise.

3) Surely if " hasbona kitaballah" is good enough for Caliph Umar, it is good enough for you. If I said I can't have the Quran without Usul Kafi, you would deem me to be a heretic. Heck, the first caliphs forbade Hadees writing all together. Now they must have been following the sunnah of the Prophet. So then isn't writing Hadees bidah?  So you can't have Quran without Hadees; Prophet and Caliphs forbade Hadees. There are bigger discussions to be had than shia books vs sunni books.

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2 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

Essentially what you are saying is that you believe in sunni books because you are sunni.

no. i am saying i believe sunni books because they have ahadith which could not have been fabricated. i am not saying they cant have fabrications. i am just saying they have ahadith which most definitely could not have been fabrications. these ahadith contain facts, historical or scientific, which could not have been known more than 50 years ago, let alone 1400 years ago.

2 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

Here is a simple issue with ahadith. Bukhari has a lot of narrations from Abu Hurraira. Abu Hurraira was a known liar and even reprimanded by Caliph Umar. So authenticity goes out the door when discussing sunni literature unless of course a known liar is considered authentic.

how was he a known liar? how can you claim KNOWLEDGE upon that? provide evidence for it. as well as him being reprimanded by umar. and what was he reprimanded for?

2 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

I am not making the argument that Bukhari is wrong simply because it was written 200 years after the Prophet. That is why we analyze each hadith on its own merit unlike my Sunni brothers who think that just because the book has the word Sahih (authentic) in it, then everything in it must be true. Hopefully you never pick up "Authentic Bible" or "Authentic Gita".

you are mistaken here brother. sunnis dont believe bukhari and muslim to be authentic just because of their name. there are other books by the name of sahih as well, but nobody considers them sahih. examples would be sahih ibn hibban and sahih ibn khuzaimah. google them and you will see i am not lying.

the reason most sunnis believe bukhari to be sahih is because over the past 1200 years, numerous scholars of hadith have authenticated an overwhelming majority of hadith in sahih bukhari, if not all. there have been some scholars who criticised some ahadith. but they claimed such ahadith were hasan, not daeef. and it is important to understand what we mean by sahih bukhari. every hadith which has a continuous unbroken chain in the book, it's chain was considered as sahih by imam bukhari. and then by most of the later scholars. there are ahadith with broken chains in the book. but nobody claims that their chains are authentic.

2 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

Any hadith that goes back to an Imam and then Prophet (saw) can be assumed to follow the Golden Chain. The veracity of the Imams is unquestionable even in Sunni literature.

what do you mean? if the 8th or 9th imam narrates an event from the life of the prophet pbuh, how did that imam know that event since he wasnt even born at the time of the prophet?

2 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

1) that was my point. You are asking questions about Shia books when the exact thing applies to your books. Same answers???

2) Lol. Several people including Abu Hurraira were reprimanded for fake hadith. Pretty naive to think otherwise.

i already told you how it doesnt. at least not yet. there are ahadith in sunni books which talk about things which couldnt possibly be known more than 50 years ago. how could those ahadith be fabrications? they cant be anything but true. and hence demand some form of trust. i have yet to come across any such ahadith which can be true without the shadow of a doubt, and so i have literally zero reason to trust the shia books. i hope you understand my point first before coming with a preconceived intent of replying to me.

2 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

3) Surely if " hasbona kitaballah" is good enough for Caliph Umar, it is good enough for you. If I said I can't have the Quran without Usul Kafi, you would deem me to be a heretic. Heck, the first caliphs forbade Hadees writing all together. Now they must have been following the sunnah of the Prophet. So then isn't writing Hadees bidah?  So you can't have Quran without Hadees; Prophet and Caliphs forbade Hadees. There are bigger discussions to be had than shia books vs sunni books.

that forbidding was to prevent confusion between quran and hadith. word of Allah and word of messenger.

you dont understand. suppose i believe the shia books. and that the first 3 caliphs were misguided to say the least. you know who compiled the quran? uthman did. if he was misguided and didnt think Ali was the Imam, how can i trust him to preserve the quran with honesty? and not tampering it or changing it or removing verses/surahs from it? you cant say that he COULDNT have messed with the quran because it is the final book and Allah has promised to preserve it. because that is a circular argument. the only way you know that the quran says that Allah promised to protect the quran is through uthman's compilation. how do you know uthman didnt remove a couple of surahs about Ali's wilayah/imamah and then add the verses which talk about Allah protecting the quran? this is what i mean when i say that i cant have the quran without the sunni view of islam. 

 

 

 

 

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The Traditions about the Compilation of the Qur’an

Report n. 1

1. Zaid b. Thabit says:

"Abu Bakr sent for me after the battle of Yamamah, and I found Umar also present. Abu Bakr said: `Umar has come to tell me that the day of Yamamah has been hard for the reciters of the Qur'an, and he fears that other such occasions may be harder still, resulting in the loss of greater part of the Qur'an. He says I must give orders for compilation of the Qur'an. I told Umar that how could he do a thing which the Messenger of Allah did not do? Umar said: "But this, by God, is desirable". And Umar has been referring this matter to me persistently, till at last Allah opened up my chest for that undertaking, and I began to hold the same view as Umar's.

Zaid says:

"Abu Bakr said: `You are a young intelligent man, and we find no fault in you. You were also a scribe, writing down the revelations for the Messenger of Allah. So attend to the Qur'an, and compile it'. By God, if they had entrusted me with removing a mountain from among the mountains, the task would not have been heavier for me than that of collecting and compiling the Qur'an. I asked: `Why do you undertake someth­ing the Prophet himself never did?' He answered: `By God, this is desirable'. And then Abu Bakr never left me without re­minders, till Allah opened up my chest, the way He did for Abu Bakr and Umar, and I attended to the work, compiling the Qur'an from palm‑branches, pieces of cloth, and from the memory of the people, till I found the last part of Surah al‑Tawbah with Abu Khuzaimah Al Ansari, which no one else had.

 

لقد جاءكم رسول من انفسكم عزيز عليه ما عنتم حريص عليكم بالمؤمنين رؤوف رحيم. فان تولوا فقل حسبي الله لا اله الا هو علية توكلت وهو رب العرش العظيم

till the end of Bara’ah. These compiled pages were with Abu Bakr till he died, then with Umar in his lifetime, and then with Hafsa, daughter of Umar".1

Report n. 2

2. Ibn Shihab reports from Anas b. Malik:

“When Huzaifah b. al‑Yaman, with the Iraqis, was fighting the people of Syria, in the conquest of Armenia and Azerb­aijan, he once came to Uthman and expressed his fears about variations in the recitations of Qur'an. Huzaifa told Uthman: `O master of the faithfuls! Come to the rescue of this ummah, before it is entangled into disagreements about the Book, the same way as Christians and Jews have been.

`Uthman sent a message to Hafsa asking her to submit the notes of Qur'an she held so that they could be copied into books, promising that they would be returned to her care and trust. Hafsa submitted the notes to Uthman who ordered Zaid b. Thabit, Abdullah b. az‑Zubair, Saeed b. al‑Aas, Abdur­ Rahman b. al‑Harth b. Hisham, to transcribe. And Uthman told the group of three Qurei[Edited Out]es: `If you differ with Zaid b. Thabit on any parts of the Qur'an, write down according to the dialect of Qureish, because it has come down in their dialect'.

`So they did the work, and when they had transcribed the notes into the books, Uthman returned the notes to Hafsa. Then he sent a copy to every place, ordering that all other versions of the Qur'an, found in pages or books must be set on fire'.

Ibn Shihab says:

"Kharijah b. Zaid b. Thabit informed me that he heard Zaid b. Thabit report the following: `When we were copying the notes, I found that an ayah from the Surah Al‑Ahzab was missing. It was an ayah I had been hearing the Messenger of Allah himself recite. So we went in search of it, and found it with Khuzaimah b. Thabit al‑Ansari:

من المؤمنين رجال صدقوا ماعاهدوا الله عليه...

and we added it to its Surah in the book.2

Report n. 3

3. Ibn Abi Shaybah, on his own chain , of authorities, reports from Ali:

"Abu Bakr deserves the best reward for the copies of Qur'an, for he was the first one to compile what exists between the two covers".

Report n. 4

4. Ibn Shihab reports from Salim b. Abdillah and Kharijah:

"Abu Bakr had compiled the Qur'an in some papers, and then asked Zaid b. Thabit to go through them. Zaid refused, till Abu Bakr asked Umar to intervene. So Zaid agreed. These books were with Abu Bakr till he died, then with Umar till he died, and thereafter with Hafsa, the Prophet's wife. When Uthman sent for them, she refused to part with them, till he pledged that they would be returned to her. Then she gave them. Uthman transcribed them into the books, and returned the original to Hafsa with whom they remained.”

Report n. 5

5. Hisham b. Urwah reports from his father, who said:

"When the participants of Yamamah were killed, Abu Bakr ordered Umar b. al‑Khattab and Zaid b. Thabit: `Sit at the door of the Mosque, and when anyone brings something from the Qur'an which you suspect, write it down if it is witnessed by two men'. This is because those companions of the Prophet (‘s) who had compiled the Qur'an had been killed at Yamamah".

Report n. 6

6. Muhammad b. Sheen says:

"Umar got killed, without having compiled the Qur'an".

Report n. 7

7. Al‑Hasan says:

"Once Umar b. al‑Khattab inquired about a verse in the Qur'an. Someone said: "It was with so and so, but he was killed on the day of Yamamah".

Umar replied: "To Allah we belong!" Then he ordered the compilation of the Qur'an. So he was the first to compile it into a book form".

Report n. 8

8. Yahya b. Abdir Rehman b. Hatib says:

"Umar wished to compile the Qur'an, so he stood among the people and said: Anyone from you who had heard part of the Qur'an from the Messenger of Allah, should come to us with it'. They had written down parts of the Qur'an on pages, boards and palm‑branches. Umar did not accept anything unless it was supported by two witnesses. He was killed while the compilation continued.

Then Uthman took over. He said: `Anyone who has someth­ing of the Qur'an with him should bring to us'. And he never accepted anything without having two witnesses. Then Khuzaimah b. Thabit came to him and said: "I find that you have left out two verses which you have not recorded". They asked: "Which are they"? He said: "I have received from the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him and his progeny):

لقد جاءكم رسول من انفسكم عزيز عليهما عنتم..

till the end of the Surah. So Uthman said: "And I bear witness that these two verses are from Allah. Now, tell us where do you want us to place them?" Khuzaimah said: "Place them at the end of what was last revealed of the Qur'an". So Baraah was ended with them".

Report n. 9

9. Ubaid b. Umair said:

"Umar never recorded any verse in the compilation till it was witnessed by two men. Then a man from Ansar brought to him these two verses:

لقد جاءكم رسول من انفسكم عزيز عليه ماعنتم

till its end. Umar said: I shall never ask you to substantiate these. The Messenger of Allah was indeed like that'. 3

Report n. 10

10. Sulaiman b. Arqam reports from Al‑Hasan and Ibn Sirin and Ibn Shihab Az‑Zuhri. They said:

"In the battle of Yamamah, massacre spread among reciters of the Qur'an, killing four hundred men. Then Zaid b. Thabit met Umar b. al‑Khattab and told him: `This Qur'an binds us to our faith. If Qur'an vanishes, our faith vanishes also. I have decided to compile the Qur'an in a book form'. Umar asked him to withhold till he had consulted Abu Bakr. They went to Abu Bakr and informed him about the intention. He said: `Do not make haste. Wait till I have consulted the Muslims'. Then he stood to address the people and informed them about the intention. They said: "You have made the right decision". So they compiled the Qur'an. Then Abu Bakr ordered a herald to announce among people: "Whoever has any part of the Qur'an with him should come up with it".

Report n. 11

11. Khuzaimah b. Thabit reports:

"I brought the following ayah to Umar b. al‑Khattab and Zaid b. Thabit:

لقد جاءكم رسول من انفسكم...

Zaid asked: "Who bears witness with you?" I said: "No. I do not know anyone". So Umar said: "I bear witness with him for the ayah".

Report n. 12

12. Abu Ishaq reports from some of his friends. They said:

"When Umar had completed the collection of the Qur'an, he inquired: "Who is most well versed in Arabic?" They said: "Saeed b. al‑Aas". Then he asked: "Who is most proficient writer?" They said: "Zaid b. Thabit". He said: "Then Saeed should dictate and Zaid should write down". So they transcribed four copies of the Qur'an. A copy each was sent to Kufah, Basrah, Syria and Hijaz".

Report n. 13

13. Abdullah b. Fadhalah says:

"When Umar decided to write down the master copy of the Qur'an, he appointed a group of his companions for it and they said: "When you have any disagreement over the language. write it down in the dialect of Mudhar. Because Qur'an came down to a man from the family of Mudhar".

Report n. 14

14. And Abu Qalabah said:

"In the days of Uthman's caliphate, a tutor would teach recitation according to a particular person, while another would teach recitation according to another person; so when the boys (students) met, they disagreed about each other's recitations. This finally came to the attention of the tutors who labelled each other's recitations as profane.

When Uthman learnt about this, he stood up to address the people and said:

"If you who are near me have so much of disagreements and confusion, then those who are farther away must have worse differences and errors. So, O Companions of Muhammad, join hands to write down a master copy of the Qur'an".

Abu Qalabah says:

Malik b. Anas told me: (According to Abu Bakr b. abi Dawud this Malik b. Anas is the grandfather of the known Malik b. Anas) "I was among those to whom the copy was dictated. So whenever there was any disagreement about an ayah, they would try to remember somebody who had heard it from the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him and his progeny). And if he was away, or lived in the deserts, they would write the preceding and the following words, leaving the disputed part till the person they wanted to refer to appeared, or was sent for. When the copy was finally ready, Uthman wrote to all the towns saying: "I have done this way, and have struck off what I had, so you strike off what you have"

Report n. 15

15. Masa'b b. Sa'ad reported:

"Uthman stood to address the people and said: 'O people, you are only thirteen years away from the era of the Prophet (‘s) and have already begun to dispute about the Qur'an. Some of you talk of the recitation by Ubayy, while others quote the recitation by Abdullah. And one tells the other that his recitation has no value. So I command everyone who has any part of the Qur'an with him to come up with it'. Then people started coming with the Qur'an written on pieces of papers and patches of skin, till most of it was compiled. Then Uthman called them individually, imploring each of them to confirm that he had heard the Prophet (‘s) recite for him, and each confirmed. When it was over, Uthman said: "Who is the best scribe?" They said: "The scribe of the Prophet (‘s), Zaid b. Thabit". He said: "Who is most proficient in Arabic?" They said; "Saeed b. al‑Aas". Uthman said: "Then Saeed should dictate and Zaid should write". So Zaid started writing and made out several copies which were distributed among men. Then I heard a companion of Muhammad say: "He has done well".

Report n. 16

16. Abul Malih says:

"When Uthman decided to have the Qur'an copied, he said: "People of Huzail would dictate and people of Thaqif would write".

Report n. 17

17. Abdul A'la b. Abdillah b. Abdillah b. Amir al Qarshi says:

"When he had completed the work of compilation, Uthman came up with it, and looking in it said: `I see some minor errors which Arabs will mend on their tongues"'.

Report n. 18

18. Ikramah said:

"When the transcribed Qur'an was brought before Uthman, he saw some minor error. So he said: "Had it been dictated by someone from Huzail and written by one from Thaqif, this error would not have occurred.

Report n. 19

19. Ata says:

"When Uthman compiled the Qur'an, he sent for Ubayy b. Ka'ab who dictated it to Zaid b. Thabit, Saeed b. al‑Aas gave grammatical inflections. So this copy is according to the recitation by Ubayy and Zaid".

Report n. 20

20. Mujahid reported:

Uthman ordered Ubayy b. Ka'ab to dictate, Zaid b. Thabit to write down and Saeed b. al‑Aas and Abdur‑Rahman b. al‑Harth to give grammatical inflections".

Report n. 21

21. Zaid b. Thabit said:

"When we transcribed the Qur'an, I found that an ayah which I had been hearing from the Prophet (‘s) was mis­sing, I found it with Khuzaima b. Thabit

من المؤمنين رجال صدقوا

up to

تبديلا

And two witnesses. Khuzaima was known as one equal to Prophet (‘s) had accepted his testimony as equal to two".

Report n. 22

22. Laith b. Sa'd said:

"The first person who collected Qur'an was Abu Bakr, and Zaid wrote it down. And people came to Zaid b. Thabit, but he would not write down any ayah except when supported by two witnesses. The ending part of Bara’ah was not found except with Abu Khuzaimah b. Thabit. He said: "Write it down, because the Messenger of Allah (‘s) had accepted his witness as equal to two witnesses". So it was written. And when Umar came up with the ayah of Rajm (i.e. stoning the adult­erer or adulteress to death) it was not recorded because he was alone".4

These are the important traditions reported on the subject of compilation of the Qur'an. Apart from being isolated reports which give no benefit of certitude, they have various def­iciencies.

https://www.al-islam.org/the-collection-and-preservation-of-the-quran-extract-ayatullah-adul-qasim-al-khui/traditions-about-0#report-n-1

https://www.al-islam.org/the-collection-and-preservation-of-the-quran-extract-ayatullah-adul-qasim-al-khui/contradictions

https://www.al-islam.org/the-collection-and-preservation-of-the-quran-extract-ayatullah-adul-qasim-al-khui/their-conflict

 

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Their Conflict with Other Traditions Related to the Compilation of the Qur’an

These traditions are in conflict with all those tradition which stress that the Qur'an was recorded and compiled during the time of the Prophet (‘s) himself. It has been reported by a group which include: Ibn Abi Shaybah, Ahmed b. Hanbal, Tirmidhi, Nas’ai, Ibn Haban, al‑Hakim, al‑Bayhaqi, Ziya al Maqdasi, who report from Ibn Abbas as following:

"I asked Uthman b. Affan: 'Why have you joined al‑Anfal with Baraah, excluding the line of Bismillah from between them, while the former is shorter than 100 verses, and the later exceeds a hundred, and then you placed them among the seven long Surahs? What made you do that?"

Uthman said:

"At times, the Prophet (‘s) used to come up with the revelation of Surahs containing numerous verses, then when revelation came in small parts, he used to call his scribe and say: "Place this part among the Surah which says so and so": and when verses were revealed, he instructed: "Place these among the Surah which mentions such and such thing". Al‑Anfal was from among the early revelations at Madina, and Bara’ah was from what was revealed last.‑Their contents were similar, so I presumed that they belonged to each other. The Prophet (‘s) never clarified this in his lifetime, so I joined them, without Basmalah in between and placed them among the seven long Surahs".1

Tabrani reports, and so does Ibn Asakir from Asha'bi.

"The Qur'an was compiled in the days of the Prophet (‘s) by six men from the Ansar. They were Ubay b. Ka'ab, Zaid b. Thabit, Muadh b. Jabal, Abu al‑Darda', Sa'd b. Ubaid, and Abu Zaid. And Ibn Jariyah had taken it except two or three Surah".2

And Qataadah says:

"I asked Anas b. Malik: `Who collected the Qur'an at the time of the Prophet (‘s)?' He said: `Four of them, all from Ansar. They were Ubay b. Ka'b, Muadh b. Jabal, Zaid b. Thabit and Abu Zaid'.3

Masruq, when recalling Abdullah b. Umar and Abdullah b. Masud said:

"I have always loved him. I heard the Prophet (‘s) say: Take the Qur'an from four: from Abdullah b. Masood, Salim, Muadh and Ubay b. Ka'b".4

Nasai has a report based on authentic chain from Abdullah b. Umar who said:

"I gathered the Qur'an, and read it every night. The Prophet heard about it, so he said: "Read it in a month ..." 5

We will mention the compilation of the Qur'an by Umm Waraqah later.

One might argue that the collection or compilation mentioned in these reports denote committing the Qur'an to memory, and not to the papers. This presumption cannot be corroborated. Besides, it is a known fact that there were numerous believers at the time of the Prophet (‘s) who knew the Qur'an by heart, so how can the memorising of the Qur'an be confined to four or six names? Those who have studied carefully the lives of the companions of the Prophet (‘s) would know it for certain that the Qur'an was ready compiled during the days of the Prophet (‘s) and that the number of its compilers were too many to be ignored.

The report by al‑Bukhari through Anas stating that when the Prophet (‘s) died, the Qur'an had not been compiled by anyone except four: Abu al Darda, Muadh b. Jabal, Zaid b. Thabit and Abu Zaid, is a report which ought to be discarded and rejected because it contradicts not only the earlier reports, but also what al‑Bukhari himself reported. Moreover, the report cannot be accepted because it is difficult to conceive that the reporter knew all the Muslims at the time of the death of the Prophet (‘s), and that in spite of the great number of the Muslims, scattered all around, he was able to find only four who had collected the Qur'an. This is a mere conjecture.

To summarize the whole situation, one may ask:

(a) With all the foregoing reports, how can one believe that Abu Bakr was the first to compile the Qur'an, after he had become a Caliph?

(b) And if we accept the report, it is strange that Abu Bakr should ask Zaid and Umar to collect the Qur'an from leather parchments, pieces of papers and from the people's memory, while Abdullah, Muadh and Ubayy were present alive among the people, especially when the Prophet (‘s) had himself recom­mended that the Qur'an be taken from them?

(c) Of course, they could not have anything from Salim because he was one of those killed at the battle of Yamamah. But Zaid, one of the compilers of the Qur'an, was there, and Abu Bakr had certified his character as young, intelligent and without blemish. So what was the need of resorting to others?

(d) Finally, the widely acknowledged and authentic tradition about thaqalayn leaves us with no doubt that the Qur'an existed in a complete book form. We shall point this out later.

https://www.al-islam.org/the-collection-and-preservation-of-the-quran-extract-ayatullah-adul-qasim-al-khui/their-conflict

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Their Conflict with the Qur’an itself

These reports contradict the Qur'an itself. Numerous verses of the Qur'an prove that complete Surahs existed, each dis­tinguished from the other. They were in the hands of the people, even those who were idolaters or the people of the Books. The famous challenge by the Prophet (‘s) to the disbelievers was to produce the like of the Qur'an, the like of ten Surahs or even one Surah. This means that the Surah were there in the public hands.

And in the Qur'an itself, the word "book" has been used in many verses. And also in the famous saying of the Prophet (‘s): "I leave among you two valuable things, the book of Allah and my progeny", there is a clear proof that the Qur'an was then written and compiled, because the word `book' is not used for that which is retained in the memory, nor for scattered writings on the parchments, pieces of papers and bones, except metaphorically. It is not right to construe any word metaphoric­ally unless there is an evidence in its context.

The word `book' denotes existence of a collection and not of scattered scribbles, nor of things which are in the memory but not written.

https://www.al-islam.org/the-collection-and-preservation-of-the-quran-extract-ayatullah-adul-qasim-al-khui/their-conflict-qur

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57 minutes ago, S.M.H.A. said:

only four of these have references. and 2 are authentic. i am sure 1 of the remaining two is not authentic. dont know about the 4th.

the remaining 18 points have no reference at all.

31 minutes ago, S.M.H.A. said:

you are trying to use a false premise to come to a conclusion you want. this post is based upon the assumption that the ahadith mentioned in the first link are authentic. i just told you 18 out of 22 arent even cited.

27 minutes ago, S.M.H.A. said:

i have seen this argument before. the word "book" being used to refer to the quran is used as a daleel for those who claim the quran was in a book for during the life of a prophet. even though most of the narrations you mentioned have no basis, 2 of them do. and i stand by my stance that the quran was not compiled in the book form during the life of the prophet pbuh. so i will respond to your claim against those 2 ahadith that they contradict the quran since the quran refers to itself as the book and even the prophet pbuh referred to it as a book. here goes.

bismillahirrahmaanirraheem. the quran is a book in the arabic language. not the english language. and during translation, the translator is not thinking about who is going to twist the translation to suit their desires. the quran refers to itself as Al-kitaab. not the book. the book is an attempt at the translation of the word Al-kitaab. tell me this: when the quran says in the second ayah of surah baqarah(translation) this is a book in which is no a doubt a guidance for the pious people. was this the last ayah to be revealed in the quran? if not, and it was not, then how can the quran refer to itself as the book while it is not yet complete? does it mean that a part of the quran is equal to the entire quran? meaning if one were to reject most of the quran but believe in some of it, that would suffice as he believes in THE book according to quran's standards? no. al-kitaab in classical arabic does not necessarily mean the book. it also means the Law, the Decree. which is why you find the ayaat of fasting as saying كُتِبَ and not أُمِرْتُمْ. anyone who tries to argue that al-kitaab only means the book, is ignorant of the tongue of the quran.

EDIT: if you are gonna provide some evidence/references, please respect knowledge enough to provide it from authentic and trust-able sources, not books like kanz ul ammal.

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7 hours ago, just a muslim said:

ya akhi. the story you mentioned isnt talking about animal milk, is it? it talks about a woman's milk. unless you can test that, and prove that on average, the milk for a boy is approximately twice as heavy as that for the girl, and not just the difference in components, you have nothing.

Ya akhi with respect, I posted you various articles from news which you are unwilling to accept so it means that you are not willing to accept truth what science has proved and if you don't that's your choice but we accept it as a proof. 

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Yazid b. Hayyan reported, I went along with Husain b. Sabra and 'Umar b. Muslim to Zaid b. Arqam and, as we sat by his side, Husain said to him:

Zaid. you have been able to acquire a great virtue that you saw Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) listened to his talk, fought by his side in (different) battles, offered prayer behind me. Zaid, you have in fact earned a great virtue. Zaid, narrate to us what you heard from Allah's Messenger (ﷺ). He said: I have grown old and have almost spent my age and I have forgotten some of the things which I remembered in connection with Allah's Messenger (ﷺ), so accept whatever I narrate to you, and which I do not narrate do not compel me to do that. He then said: One day Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) stood up to deliver sermon at a watering place known as Khumm situated between Mecca and Medina. He praised Allah, extolled Him and delivered the sermon and. exhorted (us) and said: Now to our purpose. O people, I am a human being. I am about to receive a messenger (the angel of death) from my Lord and I, in response to Allah's call, (would bid good-bye to you), but I am leaving among you two weighty things: the one being the Book of Allah in which there is right guidance and light, so hold fast to the Book of Allah and adhere to it. He exhorted (us) (to hold fast) to the Book of Allah and then said: The second are the members of my household I remind you (of your duties) to the members of my family. He (Husain) said to Zaid: Who are the members of his household? Aren't his wives the members of his family? Thereupon he said: His wives are the members of his family (but here) the members of his family are those for whom acceptance of Zakat is forbidden. And he said: Who are they? Thereupon he said: 'Ali and the offspring of 'Ali, 'Aqil and the offspring of 'Aqil and the offspring of Ja'far and the offspring of 'Abbas. Husain said: These are those for whom the acceptance of Zakat is forbidden. Zaid said: Yes.

حَدَّثَنِي زُهَيْرُ بْنُ حَرْبٍ، وَشُجَاعُ بْنُ مَخْلَدٍ، جَمِيعًا عَنِ ابْنِ عُلَيَّةَ، قَالَ زُهَيْرٌ حَدَّثَنَا إِسْمَاعِيلُ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ، حَدَّثَنِي أَبُو حَيَّانَ، حَدَّثَنِي يَزِيدُ بْنُ حَيَّانَ، قَالَ انْطَلَقْتُ أَنَا وَحُصَيْنُ، بْنُ سَبْرَةَ وَعُمَرُ بْنُ مُسْلِمٍ إِلَى زَيْدِ بْنِ أَرْقَمَ فَلَمَّا جَلَسْنَا إِلَيْهِ قَالَ لَهُ حُصَيْنٌ لَقَدْ لَقِيتَ يَا زَيْدُ خَيْرًا كَثِيرًا رَأَيْتَ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم وَسَمِعْتَ حَدِيثَهُ وَغَزَوْتَ مَعَهُ وَصَلَّيْتَ خَلْفَهُ لَقَدْ لَقِيتَ يَا زَيْدُ خَيْرًا كَثِيرًا حَدِّثْنَا يَا زَيْدُ مَا سَمِعْتَ مِنْ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم - قَالَ - يَا ابْنَ أَخِي وَاللَّهِ لَقَدْ كَبِرَتْ سِنِّي وَقَدُمَ عَهْدِي وَنَسِيتُ بَعْضَ الَّذِي كُنْتُ أَعِي مِنْ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم فَمَا حَدَّثْتُكُمْ فَاقْبَلُوا وَمَا لاَ فَلاَ تُكَلِّفُونِيهِ ‏.‏ ثُمَّ قَالَ قَامَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم يَوْمًا فِينَا خَطِيبًا بِمَاءٍ يُدْعَى خُمًّا بَيْنَ مَكَّةَ وَالْمَدِينَةِ فَحَمِدَ اللَّهَ وَأَثْنَى عَلَيْهِ وَوَعَظَ وَذَكَّرَ ثُمَّ قَالَ ‏"‏ أَمَّا بَعْدُ أَلاَ أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ فَإِنَّمَا أَنَا بَشَرٌ يُوشِكُ أَنْ يَأْتِيَ رَسُولُ رَبِّي فَأُجِيبَ وَأَنَا تَارِكٌ فِيكُمْ ثَقَلَيْنِ أَوَّلُهُمَا كِتَابُ اللَّهِ فِيهِ الْهُدَى وَالنُّورُ فَخُذُوا بِكِتَابِ اللَّهِ وَاسْتَمْسِكُوا بِهِ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ فَحَثَّ عَلَى كِتَابِ اللَّهِ وَرَغَّبَ فِيهِ ثُمَّ قَالَ ‏"‏ وَأَهْلُ بَيْتِي أُذَكِّرُكُمُ اللَّهَ فِي أَهْلِ بَيْتِي أُذَكِّرُكُمُ اللَّهَ فِي أَهْلِ بَيْتِي أُذَكِّرُكُمُ اللَّهَ فِي أَهْلِ بَيْتِي ‏"‏ ‏.‏ فَقَالَ لَهُ حُصَيْنٌ وَمَنْ أَهْلُ بَيْتِهِ يَا زَيْدُ أَلَيْسَ نِسَاؤُهُ مِنْ أَهْلِ بَيْتِهِ قَالَ نِسَاؤُهُ مِنْ أَهْلِ بَيْتِهِ وَلَكِنْ أَهْلُ بَيْتِهِ مَنْ حُرِمَ الصَّدَقَةَ بَعْدَهُ ‏.‏ قَالَ وَمَنْ هُمْ قَالَ هُمْ آلُ عَلِيٍّ وَآلُ عَقِيلٍ وَآلُ جَعْفَرٍ وَآلُ عَبَّاسٍ ‏.‏ قَالَ كُلُّ هَؤُلاَءِ حُرِمَ الصَّدَقَةَ قَالَ نَعَمْ ‏.‏

Reference

: Sahih Muslim 2408 a

In-book reference

: Book 44, Hadith 55

USC-MSA web (English) reference

: Book 31, Hadith 5920

https://sunnah.com/muslim/44/55

 

'Aishah (May Allah be pleased with her) reported:

On one occasion all the wives of the Prophet (ﷺ) were with him when his daughter, Fatimah (May Allah be pleased with her) who walked after the style of his father, came there. He (ﷺ) welcomed her saying, "Welcome, O my daughter", and made her sit on his right side, or on his left side and then whispered something to her at which she wept bitterly. When he perceived her grief, he talked secretly to her again and she smiled (with happiness). I said to her: "Messenger of Allah (ﷺ chose you from amongst all his wives to speak secretly to you and yet you cried." When he left, I asked her, "What did Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) say to you?" She said, "I will not divulge the secret of Messenger of Allah (ﷺ)." When Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) passed away, I said to her: "I adjure you by the right I have in respect of you to tell me what Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) had told you." She said: "Now (when Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) has died), I will tell you. When he whispered to me the first time, he told me, 'Jibril (Gabriel) used to listen to my recitation of the Qur'an and then recite it back to me once or twice a year, and this time he has done it twice; and so I perceive that my death is approaching. Then be mindful of your duty to Allah and be patient and steadfast, for I shall be an excellent predecessor for you.' On this I wept as you saw. When he perceived my distress he talked to me secretly the second time and said, 'O Fatimah, are you not pleased that you will be the chief among the believing women or of this Ummah?' This made me smile as you saw."

 

[Al-Bukhari and Muslim].

 

وعن عائشة رضي الله عنها قالت‏:‏ كن أزواج النبى صلى الله عليه وسلم عنده، فأقبلت فاطمة رضي الله عنها تمشى، ما تخطئ من مشية رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم شيئاً، فلما رآها رحب بها وقال‏:‏ “مرحباً بابنتى” ثم أجلسها عن يمينه أو عن شماله، ثم سارها فبكت بكاء شديداً، فلما رأى جزعها سارها الثانية فضحكت، فقلت لها‏:‏ خصك رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم من بين نسائه بالسرار، ثم أنت تبكين ‏!‏ فلما قام رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم سألتها‏:‏ ما قال لك رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏؟‏ قالت‏:‏ ما كنت لأفشي على رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم سره‏.‏ فلما توفي رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم قلت‏:‏ عزمت عليك بما لي عليك من الحق، لما حدثتني ما قال لك رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم‏؟‏ فقالت‏:‏ أما الآن فنعم، أما حين سارني في المرة الأولى فأخبرني “أن جبريل كان يعارضه القرآن في كل سنة مرة أو مرتين، وأنه عارضه الآن مرتين، وإني لا أرى الأجل إلا قد اقترب، فاتقى الله واصبرى، فغنه نعم السلف أنا لك” فبكيت بكائى الذى رأيت‏.‏ فلما رأى جزعى سارنى الثانية، فقال‏:‏ ‏ "‏يا فاطمة أما ترضين أن تكونى سيدة نساء المؤمنين، أو سيدة نساء هذه الأمة” فضحكت ضحكى الذى رأيت‏"‏‏.‏ ‏(‏‏(‏متفق عليه‏)‏‏)‏ ‏(‏‏(‏وهذا لفظ مسلم‏)‏‏)‏‏.‏

Sunnah.com reference

: Book 2, Hadith 7English reference: Book 2, Hadith 687Arabic referenceBook 2, Hadith 683

https://sunnah.com/riyadussaliheen/2/7

Volume 9, Book 92, Number 468:

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:

When the time of the death of the Prophet approached while there were some men in the house, and among them was 'Umar bin Al-Khatttab, the Prophet said, "Come near let me write for you a writing after which you will never go astray." 'Umar said, "The Prophet is seriously ill, and you have the Quran, so Allah's Book is sufficient for us." The people in the house differed and disputed. Some of them said, "Come near so that Allah's Apostle may write for you a writing after which you will not go astray," while some of them said what 'Umar said. When they made much noise and differed greatly before the Prophet, he said to them, "Go away and leave me." Ibn 'Abbas used to say, "It was a great disaster that their difference and noise prevented Allah's Apostle from writing that writing for them.

http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/092-sbt.php

 

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:

"I saw the Messenger of Allah during his Hajj, on the Day of 'Arafah. He was upon his camel Qaswa, giving a Khutbah, so he said: 'O people! Indeed, I have left among you, that which if you hold fast to it, you shall not go astray: The Book of Allah and my family, the people of my house.'"

حَدَّثَنَا نَصْرُ بْنُ عَبْدِ الرَّحْمَنِ الْكُوفِيُّ، حَدَّثَنَا زَيْدُ بْنُ الْحَسَنِ، هُوَ الأَنْمَاطِيُّ عَنْ جَعْفَرِ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ، عَنْ أَبِيهِ، عَنْ جَابِرِ بْنِ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ، قَالَ رَأَيْتُ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم فِي حَجَّتِهِ يَوْمَ عَرَفَةَ وَهُوَ عَلَى نَاقَتِهِ الْقَصْوَاءِ يَخْطُبُ فَسَمِعْتُهُ يَقُولُ ‏ "‏ يَا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ إِنِّي قَدْ تَرَكْتُ فِيكُمْ مَا إِنْ أَخَذْتُمْ بِهِ لَنْ تَضِلُّوا كِتَابَ اللَّهِ وَعِتْرَتِي أَهْلَ بَيْتِي ‏"‏ ‏.‏ قَالَ وَفِي الْبَابِ عَنْ أَبِي ذَرٍّ وَأَبِي سَعِيدٍ وَزَيْدِ بْنِ أَرْقَمَ وَحُذَيْفَةَ بْنِ أَسِيدٍ ‏.‏ قَالَ وَهَذَا حَدِيثٌ حَسَنٌ غَرِيبٌ مِنْ هَذَا الْوَجْهِ ‏.‏ قَالَ وَزَيْدُ بْنُ الْحَسَنِ قَدْ رَوَى عَنْهُ سَعِيدُ بْنُ سُلَيْمَانَ وَغَيْرُ وَاحِدٍ مِنْ أَهْلِ الْعِلْمِ ‏.‏

Grade: Sahih (Darussalam)

English reference: Vol. 1, Book 46, Hadith 3786Arabic reference Book 49, Hadith 4155

https://sunnah.com/urn/636690

 

Narrated Zaid bin Arqam, may Allah be pleased with both of them:

that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:"Indeed, I am leaving among you, that which if you hold fast to them, you shall not be misguided after me. One of them is greater than the other: The Book of Allah is a rope extended from the sky to the earth, and my family - the people of my house - and they shall not split until they meet at the Hawd, so look at how you deal with them after me."

حَدَّثَنَا عَلِيُّ بْنُ الْمُنْذِرِ، - كُوفِيٌّ - حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ فُضَيْلٍ، قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا الأَعْمَشُ، عَنْ عَطِيَّةَ، عَنْ أَبِي سَعِيدٍ، وَالأَعْمَشُ، عَنْ حَبِيبِ بْنِ أَبِي ثَابِتٍ، عَنْ زَيْدِ بْنِ أَرْقَمَ، رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُمَا قَالاَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ "‏ إِنِّي تَارِكٌ فِيكُمْ مَا إِنْ تَمَسَّكْتُمْ بِهِ لَنْ تَضِلُّوا بَعْدِي أَحَدُهُمَا أَعْظَمُ مِنَ الآخَرِ كِتَابُ اللَّهِ حَبْلٌ مَمْدُودٌ مِنَ السَّمَاءِ إِلَى الأَرْضِ وَعِتْرَتِي أَهْلُ بَيْتِي وَلَنْ يَتَفَرَّقَا حَتَّى يَرِدَا عَلَىَّ الْحَوْضَ فَانْظُرُوا كَيْفَ تَخْلُفُونِي فِيهِمَا ‏"‏ ‏.‏ قَالَ هَذَا حَدِيثٌ حَسَنٌ غَرِيبٌ ‏.‏

Grade: Sahih (Darussalam)

English reference Vol. 1, Book 46, Hadith 3788Arabic reference: Book 49, Hadith 4157

http://sunnah.com/urn/636710

 

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41 minutes ago, just a muslim said:

 

 

Narrated Ubaidullah bin `Abdullah:

Ibn `Abbas said, "When Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) was on his deathbed and there were some men in the house, he said, 'Come near, I will write for you something after which you will not go astray.' Some of them ( i.e. his companions) said, 'Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) is seriously ill and you have the (Holy) Qur'an. Allah's Book is sufficient for us.' So the people in the house differed and started disputing. Some of them said, 'Give him writing material so that he may write for you something after which you will not go astray.' while the others said the other way round. So when their talk and differences increased, Allah's Apostle said, "Get up." Ibn `Abbas used to say, "No doubt, it was very unfortunate (a great disaster) that Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) was prevented from writing for them that writing because of their differences and noise."

حَدَّثَنَا عَلِيُّ بْنُ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ، حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ الرَّزَّاقِ، أَخْبَرَنَا مَعْمَرٌ، عَنِ الزُّهْرِيِّ، عَنْ عُبَيْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ عُتْبَةَ، عَنِ ابْنِ عَبَّاسٍ ـ رضى الله عنهما ـ قَالَ لَمَّا حُضِرَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم وَفِي الْبَيْتِ رِجَالٌ، فَقَالَ النَّبِيُّ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏"‏ هَلُمُّوا أَكْتُبْ لَكُمْ كِتَابًا لاَ تَضِلُّوا بَعْدَهُ ‏"‏‏.‏ فَقَالَ بَعْضُهُمْ إِنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَدْ غَلَبَهُ الْوَجَعُ وَعِنْدَكُمُ الْقُرْآنُ، حَسْبُنَا كِتَابُ اللَّهِ‏.‏ فَاخْتَلَفَ أَهْلُ الْبَيْتِ وَاخْتَصَمُوا، فَمِنْهُمْ مَنْ يَقُولُ قَرِّبُوا يَكْتُبُ لَكُمْ كِتَابًا لاَ تَضِلُّوا بَعْدَهُ‏.‏ وَمِنْهُمْ مَنْ يَقُولُ غَيْرَ ذَلِكَ، فَلَمَّا أَكْثَرُوا اللَّغْوَ وَالاِخْتِلاَفَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏"‏ قُومُوا ‏"‏‏.‏ قَالَ عُبَيْدُ اللَّهِ فَكَانَ يَقُولُ ابْنُ عَبَّاسٍ إِنَّ الرَّزِيَّةَ كُلَّ الرَّزِيَّةِ مَا حَالَ بَيْنَ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم وَبَيْنَ أَنْ يَكْتُبَ لَهُمْ ذَلِكَ الْكِتَابَ لاِخْتِلاَفِهِمْ وَلَغَطِهِمْ‏.‏

Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 4432

In-book reference : Book 64, Hadith 454

USC-MSA web (English) reference Vol. 5, Book 59, Hadith 717

https://sunnah.com/bukhari/64/454

 

*****

Tragedy of Thursday> Which Book was mentioned? No one questioned that Book of Allah(awj) was not present?

Edited by S.M.H.A.
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29 minutes ago, S.M.H.A. said:

Narrated Ubaidullah bin `Abdullah:

Ibn `Abbas said, "When Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) was on his deathbed and there were some men in the house, he said, 'Come near, I will write for you something after which you will not go astray.' Some of them ( i.e. his companions) said, 'Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) is seriously ill and you have the (Holy) Qur'an. Allah's Book is sufficient for us.' So the people in the house differed and started disputing. Some of them said, 'Give him writing material so that he may write for you something after which you will not go astray.' while the others said the other way round. So when their talk and differences increased, Allah's Apostle said, "Get up." Ibn `Abbas used to say, "No doubt, it was very unfortunate (a great disaster) that Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) was prevented from writing for them that writing because of their differences and noise."

حَدَّثَنَا عَلِيُّ بْنُ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ، حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ الرَّزَّاقِ، أَخْبَرَنَا مَعْمَرٌ، عَنِ الزُّهْرِيِّ، عَنْ عُبَيْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ عُتْبَةَ، عَنِ ابْنِ عَبَّاسٍ ـ رضى الله عنهما ـ قَالَ لَمَّا حُضِرَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم وَفِي الْبَيْتِ رِجَالٌ، فَقَالَ النَّبِيُّ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏"‏ هَلُمُّوا أَكْتُبْ لَكُمْ كِتَابًا لاَ تَضِلُّوا بَعْدَهُ ‏"‏‏.‏ فَقَالَ بَعْضُهُمْ إِنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَدْ غَلَبَهُ الْوَجَعُ وَعِنْدَكُمُ الْقُرْآنُ، حَسْبُنَا كِتَابُ اللَّهِ‏.‏ فَاخْتَلَفَ أَهْلُ الْبَيْتِ وَاخْتَصَمُوا، فَمِنْهُمْ مَنْ يَقُولُ قَرِّبُوا يَكْتُبُ لَكُمْ كِتَابًا لاَ تَضِلُّوا بَعْدَهُ‏.‏ وَمِنْهُمْ مَنْ يَقُولُ غَيْرَ ذَلِكَ، فَلَمَّا أَكْثَرُوا اللَّغْوَ وَالاِخْتِلاَفَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏"‏ قُومُوا ‏"‏‏.‏ قَالَ عُبَيْدُ اللَّهِ فَكَانَ يَقُولُ ابْنُ عَبَّاسٍ إِنَّ الرَّزِيَّةَ كُلَّ الرَّزِيَّةِ مَا حَالَ بَيْنَ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم وَبَيْنَ أَنْ يَكْتُبَ لَهُمْ ذَلِكَ الْكِتَابَ لاِخْتِلاَفِهِمْ وَلَغَطِهِمْ‏.‏

Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 4432

In-book reference : Book 64, Hadith 454

USC-MSA web (English) reference Vol. 5, Book 59, Hadith 717

https://sunnah.com/bukhari/64/454

 

*****

Tragedy of Thursday> Which Book was mentioned? No one questioned that Book of Allah(awj) was not present?

nobody is saying the quran wasnt written down. the discussion is of whether it was compiled or not. does a book necessarily have to be combined?

just on a side note, ahadith are not transmitted word by word. they are transmitted by meaning. so, it is possible that umar said said something along the lines of kitabullah, but one of the narrators, since by that time the quran had been compiled, referred to it as the book of Allah.

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43 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

Ya akhi with respect, I posted you various articles from news which you are unwilling to accept so it means that you are not willing to accept truth what science has proved and if you don't that's your choice but we accept it as a proof. 

bro. forget my argument about whether it is scientifically what you claim. what you quoted isnt even a hadith.

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59 minutes ago, just a muslim said:

.

My Interest was, as I stated in the first post, in your Thread.

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235053464-question-again/?tab=comments#comment-3089695

Fundamental of Faith are of primary concerns to a Layman, Average person like me.

At the very Basic level, there are Hadith( Traditions) and Historical Events/Facts that are agreed upon by ALL Muslims, ( you can play with terms, or meanings) But overall these Hadiths are accepted by All Muslims. 

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235053220-question-to-sunnis-kerbela/?page=8&tab=comments#comment-3090221

If you want to bypass this stage, it your call. I am not interested in conjecture/personal opinion, or defending choice personalities/issues over what needs to be defended  or other secondary issues.( Basic/ Fundamental concepts not terms/meanings spin)

Edited by S.M.H.A.
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9 hours ago, just a muslim said:

yes. i am saying, the shia and sunnis differ as to who is reliable and who is not. for example, there are ahadith from a narrator X. the shia say he is not reliable. sunnis say he is. which one do you believe and why?

 

It depends on the reasons why they say he is reliable or unreliable.

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1 hour ago, just a muslim said:

bro. forget my argument about whether it is scientifically what you claim. what you quoted isnt even a hadith.

I gave you refernce, I think you were unable to read it bro, If you were unable to read it, it might be sight issues for which you need to go to a doctor. I will pray for your health meanwhile.

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On 2017-10-19 at 3:56 PM, Sindbad05 said:

Strange discussion. Maybe mothers of boys have more fat in milk, but as you may have noticed; fat in milk floats on top. This is because it is less dense. The more fat, the less will the weight of one liter of milk be.  However I must doubt if there in the Arabian desert were equipements available to detect the very small difference.

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12 minutes ago, andres said:

Strange discussion. Maybe mothers of boys have more fat in milk, but as you may have noticed; fat in milk floats on top. This is because it is less dense. The more fat, the less will the weight of one liter of milk be.  However I must doubt if there in the Arabian desert were equipements available to detect the very small difference.

Well, fat makes liquid thicker and heavier and not lesser, however, it the mothers of the boys do not have only excessive fats but proteins as well. This is found in scientific research which was 1300 years ago claimed by our first Imam. Now, for you guys who are deniers of Imamate, it can either be a magic such as people like you before have been alleging prophets with such. We do not have any doubt in their higher intellect, wisdom and miracles which they were granted from God. 

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7 hours ago, just a muslim said:

i am trying to eliminate all those "sects" which i find could possibly be true. by doing that, whatever i remain with, will be the truth. 

why do you have faith in that? 

and you know, the sunni belief is that if the hadith is sahih, you wont HAVE to check it against the quran. it is impossible that a sahih hadith will ever contradict the quran. 

i understand that. but i find the premises to be slightly biased. i mean, ill assume you were born a shia, would you still be doing that if you were born in a sunni family? if you werent, and are a convert, then you must have reason to have faith in all of it. and i would like to know what it is.

i think what drives home the point is surah al-Baqarah [2:166-167]:  who's the imam i should follow so that i won't be regretting in akhirat? 

 

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1 hour ago, Sindbad05 said:

Well, fat makes liquid thicker and heavier and not lesser, however, it the mothers of the boys do not have only excessive fats but proteins as well. This is found in scientific research which was 1300 years ago claimed by our first Imam. Now, for you guys who are deniers of Imamate, it can either be a magic such as people like you before have been alleging prophets with such. We do not have any doubt in their higher intellect, wisdom and miracles which they were granted from God. 

It is not the intelligence of your Imam that I questioning. 

Why not try to determine the difference in weight between 1 liter 1% and 3% milk for yourself. 

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2 hours ago, andres said:

It is not the intelligence of your Imam that I questioning. 

Why not try to determine the difference in weight between 1 liter 1% and 3% milk for yourself. 

Well, I already told your highness that there isn't only fat but also higher proteins and other ingredients which makes milk for a baby boy higher than baby girl. I acknowledge what have you said earlier and therefore, with humble intentions I repeat again. :)

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@andres you are correct. I just wanted to prove Mr. @just a muslim that what I quoted from a hadith of Imam Ali a.s is proved that milk for baby boy is heavier than baby girl. That's all. You may be are correct about fats that but there are other things as well that's make it heavier. Again "may be" does not mean rejection but for confirmation.

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49 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

Well, I already told your highness that there isn't only fat but also higher proteins and other ingredients which makes milk for a baby boy higher than baby girl. I acknowledge what have you said earlier and therefore, with humble intentions I repeat again. :)

I am not arguing agaist your claim that mothers milk differ depending on the childs gender. It very well may be so, I dont know. I just say the difference in weight is minimal, and the more fat, the lighter it becomes. Milks weight, fat or less fat, is almost the same as that of water. 

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29 minutes ago, andres said:

I am not arguing agaist your claim that mothers milk differ depending on the childs gender. It very well may be so, I dont know. I just say the difference in weight is minimal, and the more fat, the lighter it becomes. Milks weight, fat or less fat, is almost the same as that of water. 

Well, I don't know what you mean to say but my discussion discussed about whether milk of mother for baby boy is heavier than Weight that for a baby girl?  The answer is yes, according to hadith of Imam Ali a.s, it is by 50% heavier than for baby girl and that is also proved by science. That's all. If you want to argue about it first you should read what was main discussion and then if there is anything which you think I have said wrong, you are welcome to correct.  I am always willing to correct myself.

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1 hour ago, Sindbad05 said:

Well, I don't know what you mean to say but my discussion discussed about whether milk of mother for baby boy is heavier than Weight that for a baby girl?  The answer is yes, according to hadith of Imam Ali a.s, it is by 50% heavier than for baby girl and that is also proved by science. That's all. If you want to argue about it first you should read what was main discussion and then if there is anything which you think I have said wrong, you are welcome to correct.  I am always willing to correct myself.

It is not the end of the world if you and Imam Ali believe Baby boys milk weigh ca. 1,5 kg/L, and I believe it is only ca. 1kg/L. Lets stop here. 

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