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9 minutes ago, just a muslim said:

the article says nothing about the weight being twice.

As for the weight, the more proteins and fats in the baby boy's milk, itself is evidence that is must have more weight. What you should do is put cows milk and goats milk in two pots of equal size and equal measure and you will notice that cows milk is much heavier due to more proteins and fats than goats. alright ? 

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بسم الله الرحمن الرحیم السلام علیکم   I'm sorry to say almost all of the posts responding to the OP are irrelevant or conjectural and not at all how the best Imami believers argued for

[5] . Al-Bokhari, Abou Abdullah al-Ja'fi, Al-Juma al-Sahih al-Mukhtasar, v.14, p. 253, Dar ibn Kathir, Beirut, third volume, 1407 AH   https://muflihun.com/bukhari/89/299 https://sunna

subhan Allah.. everything makes sense and is logical in shia hadiths..  does it make sense that the army of the caliph of islam kills the grandson of the Prophet saaw?

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@just a muslim

We have good reason to be sceptical of a one-size-fits-all formula," said Prof Katie Hinde, an evolutionary biologist at Harvard University.

Speaking at the American Association for the Advancement of Science meeting in Chicago, Hinde described her work in rhesus monkeys that showed mothers produce milk with 35% more fat and protein for male babies, and even richer milk when the male was first-born.

But when mothers fed female babies, their milk was less fatty and had more calcium, probably to support the faster growth of their skeletons. Mothers produced more milk overall for females, and over the course of their breast feeding, they received the same amount of fat as the males.

"The recipes for milk for sons and daughters may be different, and the difference may be greater depending on where the mother is at in her reproductive career," said Hinde.

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21 minutes ago, just a muslim said:

the article says nothing about the weight being twice. it only says about slight difference in the percentages of some components. and most of all, it says it could be the other way around as well. daughters milk actually proved to be heavier in some cases.

also, could you give me the reference for this hadith?

edit: i repeat. the second article also doesnt say anything about the weight of the milk. only the composition of it.

It just means we haven't found anything on it yet. Or may be we haven't done any research on it. 

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23 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

It is in the book "Salooni". Do you know the urdu so that I can give you link to download it. 

In some cases, may be the exception and due to the health of the mother, otherwise, the strong built of boy and delicate build of girl itself shows that both bodies have different physical needs and therefore different or additional supplements. 

yes i know urdu. share the link. and the reference i.e. page number etc.

not an exception. the article says so itself. 

19 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

As for the weight, the more proteins and fats in the baby boy's milk, itself is evidence that is must have more weight. What you should do is put cows milk and goats milk in two pots of equal size and equal measure and you will notice that cows milk is much heavier due to more proteins and fats than goats. alright ? 

why are you comparing the milk of two different animals? if you want to, compare it as it says in the hadith. of women. for boys and girls. do a study/research. if the weight turns out to be twice, or approximately twice, then you have a case. otherwise, none.

10 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

Aren't these miracles ? @just a muslim :clap:

as i said above, no. i am going to hold on any further comments until i check the hadith.

5 minutes ago, Ron_Burgundy said:

It just means we haven't found anything on it yet. Or may be we haven't done any research on it. 

maybe. but we are trying to establish hujjah/proof. so saying maybe doesnt work. the question was, why do you trust your hadith narrators/scholars?

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1 hour ago, just a muslim said:

you do not understand my question. everywhere you are claiming knowledge or trust, such as "many scholars said...". my question is, why do you trust those scholars/narrators. the veracity may be a witness for or agaisnt a speaker. but what you mentioned in the above examples are just nice things which anyone could have come up with.

i dont understand this hadith. two women gave birth. one to a boy and the other to a girl. someone mixed the children up. and now both women claimed that the son was hers. Ali ra asked the women to give their milk in equal quantities. the woman whose milk was denser, meaning more in weight, the boy was hers? how does that make sense? and what does gynecology have to do with that?

He understood your question but not intentions. 
 

 

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2 minutes ago, Muntaqim Force said:

He understood your question but not intentions. 
 

 

what does that mean? i am simply asking as a person who turned towards islam through quran. and is now wondering whether to adopt shia hadith or sunni hadith. and not just hadith, every view. i have SOME reason to trust sunni hadith literature. i am looking for any reason the shia have to trust their hadith.

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4 minutes ago, just a muslim said:

what does that mean? i am simply asking as a person who turned towards islam through quran. and is now wondering whether to adopt shia hadith or sunni hadith. and not just hadith, every view. i have SOME reason to trust sunni hadith literature. i am looking for any reason the shia have to trust their hadith.

It means that someone who turns torwards Islam through Quran does not need to waste his life after Ismaeel Bukhari. You need to adopt what Quran is saying and you need to learn it from people about whom Quran is speaking. Dont sell your islam for fancy headings, colorful books, nicely connected chains of fictitious men and women. Stick to who showed you Islam. Adaptations are least to worry about at this point. Read Sura Al Hamd around 10,000 times with as many translations you can, then you might get slight idea whom to adapt for further learning.  

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1 minute ago, Muntaqim Force said:

It means that someone who turns torwards Islam through Quran does not need to waste his life after Ismaeel Bukhari. You need to adopt what Quran is saying and you need to learn it from people about whom Quran is speaking. Dont sell your islam for fancy headings, colorful books, nicely connected chains of fictitious men and women. Stick to who showed you Islam. Adaptations are least to worry about at this point. Read Sura Al Hamd around 10,000 times with as many translations you can, then you might get slight idea whom to adapt for further learning.  

that is the problem. you say the sunni narrators are fictitious. the sunnis say shia narrators are fictitious. i will find equally passionate people on both sides who believe the same about the other. i dont want a subjective answer to this. i want an objective answer.

what is the quran saying? following the ahlul bayt and imams? that is your interpretation. what makes your interpretation superior or correct and the sunni interpretation inferior and incorrect?

how do you know who showed us islam?

tell me this. are you a born muslim or a convert? this matters because if you are a convert, i would like to know why you chose shiism. if you are a born muslim, would you be a shia muslim if you were born a sunni? 

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2 minutes ago, just a muslim said:

that is the problem. you say the sunni narrators are fictitious. the sunnis say shia narrators are fictitious. i will find equally passionate people on both sides who believe the same about the other. i dont want a subjective answer to this. i want an objective answer.

what is the quran saying? following the ahlul bayt and imams? that is your interpretation. what makes your interpretation superior or correct and the sunni interpretation inferior and incorrect?

how do you know who showed us islam?

tell me this. are you a born muslim or a convert? this matters because if you are a convert, i would like to know why you chose shiism. if you are a born muslim, would you be a shia muslim if you were born a sunni? 

To answer all these queries , i must know first that why you converted to Islam so i can help you out to adapt the best. May be the person who was helping you in learning islam was confused personality so today you are in confusion regarding which hadith narrative to follow. 

So share how you became enlightened by Islam. I am sure that answers you need are right in your story of conversion.

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25 minutes ago, just a muslim said:

maybe. but we are trying to establish hujjah/proof. so saying maybe doesnt work. the question was, why do you trust your hadith narrators/scholars?

Because we just go with book we validate every single hadith. Who quoted it when and  did he heard from someone and was he present that time etc. etc. 

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1 minute ago, Muntaqim Force said:

To answer all these queries , i must know first that why you converted to Islam so i can help you out to adapt the best. May be the person who was helping you in learning islam was confused personality so today you are in confusion regarding which hadith narrative to follow. 

So share how you became enlightened by Islam. I am sure that answers you need are right in your story of conversion.

i didnt convert. was born in a sunni family. wasnt practicing. didnt used to pray. then Allah guided me. had this new found motivation to pray all my prayers and never miss them. after that, started reading into islam, as well as other religions. and found it to be the truth. the quran seemed impossible to be written by man. the scienctific miracles in it. even though i dont now take that approach when inviting others to islam. then a series of personal experiences in life, which were too much to be a mere coincidence. strengthened my faith in the religion. then after about a year, i realized i was praying incorrectly, even according to sunnis. i corrected myself. and slowly, gradually, led to the question that i know islam is the truth. but dont know which islam.

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8 minutes ago, Ron_Burgundy said:

Because we just go with book we validate every single hadith. Who quoted it when and  did he heard from someone and was he present that time etc. etc. 

yes. and the question is, why do you trust the person who heard from someone. because scholars authenticated him based on books of rijal? why do you trust those books of rijal? for all you know, it could be a huge conspiracy to misguide the ummah

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Just now, just a muslim said:

yes. and the question is, why do you trust the person who heard from someone. because scholars authenticated him based on books of rijal? why do you trust those books of rijal? for all you know, it could be a huge conspiracy to misguide the ummah

Yes, we have many narrated who have done it. For instance Mawaiya. So if you think our narrators could be wrong can you provide the names you trust, and why do you trust them?

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Just now, Ron_Burgundy said:

Yes, we have many narrated who have done it. For instance Mawaiya. So if you think our narrators could be wrong can you provide the names you trust, and why do you trust them?

you are saying that based on the narrations you have. which is my initial question. that why do you trust those narrations? and this has nothing to do with muawiya jbtw. 

i dont know. but i dont ask this question about the sunni literature because there are ahadith which tell scientific facts, future events, and things which authenticate those ahadith from an outward source. so, it is reasonable to assume that since those narrations are true, their narrators are probably reliable. and so are those whom these narrators call reliable. and by falling dominoes, the entire sunni rijal system gets some sort of validity. i can give examples of the science and future events mentioned in ahadith in sunni literature.

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1 minute ago, just a muslim said:

i dont know. but i dont ask this question about the sunni literature because there are ahadith which tell scientific facts, future events, and things which authenticate those ahadith from an outward source. so, it is reasonable to assume that since those narrations are true, their narrators are probably reliable. and so are those whom these narrators call reliable. and by falling dominoes, the entire sunni rijal system gets some sort of validity. i can give examples of the science and future events mentioned in ahadith in sunni literature.

First of all you need to understand that there are many hadiths which we both agree upon. 

 

So let me ask you a question, do you think the following hadith is legit?

Quote

Hadith 1:395

Narrated 'Umar (bin Al-Khattab):

My Lord agreed with me in three things:

1. I said,"O Allah's Apostle, I wish we took the station of Abraham as our praying place (for some of our prayers). So came the Divine Inspiration: And take you (people) the station of Abraham as a place of prayer (for some of your prayers e.g. two Rakat of Tawaf of Ka'ba)". (2.125)

2. And as regards the (verse of) the veiling of the women, I said, 'O Allah's Apostle! I wish you ordered your wives to cover themselves from the men because good and bad ones talk to them.' So the verse of the veiling of the women was revealed.

3. Once the wives of the Prophet made a united front against the Prophet and I said to them, 'It may be if he (the Prophet) divorced you, (all) that his Lord (Allah) will give him instead of you wives better than you.' So this verse (the same as I had said) was revealed." (66.5).

 

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2 minutes ago, Ron_Burgundy said:

First of all you need to understand that there are many hadiths which we both agree upon. 

 

So let me ask you a question, do you think the following hadith is legit?

 

yes i understand that. im talking about the differences. 

depends on what the scholars have said about it. but i remember it to graded authentic.

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8 minutes ago, just a muslim said:

you are saying that based on the narrations you have. which is my initial question. that why do you trust those narrations? and this has nothing to do with muawiya jbtw. 

i dont know. but i dont ask this question about the sunni literature because there are ahadith which tell scientific facts, future events, and things which authenticate those ahadith from an outward source. so, it is reasonable to assume that since those narrations are true, their narrators are probably reliable. and so are those whom these narrators call reliable. and by falling dominoes, the entire sunni rijal system gets some sort of validity. i can give examples of the science and future events mentioned in ahadith in sunni literature.

Defend these as well

"Sahih" Bukhari

Volume 6, Book 60, Number 368:

Narrated Ibn Abi Mulaika:

The two righteous persons were about to be ruined. They were Abu Bakr and 'Umar who raised their voices in the presence of the Prophet when a mission from Bani Tamim came to him. One of the two recommended Al-Aqra' bin Habeas, the brother of Bani Mujashi (to be their governor) while the other recommended somebody else. (Nafi', the sub-narrator said, I do not remember his name). Abu Bakr said to Umar, "You wanted nothing but to oppose me!" 'Umar said, "I did not intend to oppose you." Their voices grew loud in that argument, so Allah revealed:

'O you who believe! Raise not your voices above the voice of the Prophet.' (49.2) Ibn Az-Zubair said, "Since the revelation of this Verse, 'Umar used to speak in such a low tone that the Prophet had to ask him to repeat his statements." But Ibn Az-Zubair did not mention the same about his (maternal) grandfather (i.e. Abu Bakr).

 

 

 

 

Sahih al Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 4, Hadith Number 148: book of Ablutions (Wudu')

Narrated 'A'isha:

The wives of the Prophet used to go to Al-Manasi, a vast open place (near Baqia at Medina) to answer the call of nature at night. 'Umar used to say to the Prophet "Let your wives be veiled," but Allah's Apostle did not do so. One night Sauda bint Zam'a the wife of the Prophet went out at 'Isha' time and she was a tall lady. 'Umar addressed her and said, "I have recognized you, O Sauda." He said so, as he desired eagerly that the verses of Al-Hijab (the observing of veils by the Muslim women) may be revealed. So Allah revealed the verses of "Al-Hijab" (A complete body cover excluding the eyes).

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1 minute ago, just a muslim said:

yes i understand that. im talking about the differences. 

depends on what the scholars have said about it. but i remember it to graded authentic.

So now you are saying me that Umar was advising Allah like Allah didn't know what to do. Astagfirullah.

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1 minute ago, just a muslim said:

yes i understand that. im talking about the differences. 

depends on what the scholars have said about it. but i remember it to graded authentic.

Tell me did Umar know more than Allah and Prophet? For god sake he used to pray idols man if he was that wise he wouldn't have worshiped his own creation. 

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3 minutes ago, Ron_Burgundy said:

Defend these as well

"Sahih" Bukhari

Volume 6, Book 60, Number 368:

Narrated Ibn Abi Mulaika:

The two righteous persons were about to be ruined. They were Abu Bakr and 'Umar who raised their voices in the presence of the Prophet when a mission from Bani Tamim came to him. One of the two recommended Al-Aqra' bin Habeas, the brother of Bani Mujashi (to be their governor) while the other recommended somebody else. (Nafi', the sub-narrator said, I do not remember his name). Abu Bakr said to Umar, "You wanted nothing but to oppose me!" 'Umar said, "I did not intend to oppose you." Their voices grew loud in that argument, so Allah revealed:

'O you who believe! Raise not your voices above the voice of the Prophet.' (49.2) Ibn Az-Zubair said, "Since the revelation of this Verse, 'Umar used to speak in such a low tone that the Prophet had to ask him to repeat his statements." But Ibn Az-Zubair did not mention the same about his (maternal) grandfather (i.e. Abu Bakr).

 

 

 

 

Sahih al Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 4, Hadith Number 148: book of Ablutions (Wudu')

Narrated 'A'isha:

The wives of the Prophet used to go to Al-Manasi, a vast open place (near Baqia at Medina) to answer the call of nature at night. 'Umar used to say to the Prophet "Let your wives be veiled," but Allah's Apostle did not do so. One night Sauda bint Zam'a the wife of the Prophet went out at 'Isha' time and she was a tall lady. 'Umar addressed her and said, "I have recognized you, O Sauda." He said so, as he desired eagerly that the verses of Al-Hijab (the observing of veils by the Muslim women) may be revealed. So Allah revealed the verses of "Al-Hijab" (A complete body cover excluding the eyes).

would you mind opening a new thread for these? i dont want the thread to deviate. and trust me. this is not me trying to run away. or you could send these to me on private message. and i will respond to these inshaAllah. 

2 minutes ago, Ron_Burgundy said:

So now you are saying me that Umar was advising Allah like Allah didn't know what to do. Astagfirullah.

sigh. that is not what i said ya akhi. 

1 minute ago, Ron_Burgundy said:

Tell me did Umar know more than Allah and Prophet? For god sake he used to pray idols man if he was that wise he wouldn't have worshiped his own creation. 

again. that is not what i said. and again, i wouldnt mind at all to answer these. but just not on this thread. it may seem like i am trying to avoid it, but wallahi im not. 

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Just now, just a muslim said:

would you mind opening a new thread for these? i dont want the thread to deviate. and trust me. this is not me trying to run away. or you could send these to me on private message. and i will respond to these inshaAllah. 

sigh. that is not what i said ya akhi. 

again. that is not what i said. and again, i wouldnt mind at all to answer these. but just not on this thread. it may seem like i am trying to avoid it, but wallahi im not. 

Brother i don't play defensive where you get to ask all the questions. :D Sine we all know Quran is not enough so thats why I want to discuss other sources. 

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8 minutes ago, Ron_Burgundy said:

Brother i don't play defensive where you get to ask all the questions. :D Sine we all know Quran is not enough so thats why I want to discuss other sources. 

sigh. okay. lets assume for the sake of this discussion that the ahadith you mentioned are not authentic. on second thoughts, let us dismiss the entire sunni literature which the shias dont agree with. happy? now i have nothing to defend. so you cant "attack" and will have to simply "play defensive". unless you are willing to admit that you yourself are not sure about shiism. 

 you do not understand. i am very much open to the idea of shiism, given it can be proven to be the truth. so far, it hasnt.

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3 minutes ago, just a muslim said:

sigh. okay. lets assume for the sake of this discussion that the ahadith you mentioned are not authentic. on second thoughts, let us dismiss the entire sunni literature which the shias dont agree with. happy? now i have nothing to defend. so you cant "attack" and will have to simply "play defensive". unless you are willing to admit that you yourself are not sure about shiism. 

 you do not understand. i am very much open to the idea of shiism, given it can be proven to be the truth. so far, it hasnt.

Well now if you think any of our sahih hadith is wrong you just need to prove it. And I will agree with you. For me its not about hadiths. Its about whats right and wrong. Its not like if you gonna quote me something and say I took it from Kafi I will agree to it. I will do my research and will accept or decline, depends on my research. 

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Just now, Ron_Burgundy said:

Well now if you think any of our sahih hadith is wrong you just need to prove it. And I will agree with you. For me its not about hadiths. Its about whats right and wrong. Its not like if you gonna quote me something and say I took it from Kafi I will agree to it. I will do my research and will accept or decline, depends on my research. 

no. that is a logical trap, and no. i am not accusing you of anything. you are not aware of it either. 

you first have to prove that a hadith is sahih. and when i say prove it, i mean prove that the prophet pbuh or the imams actually said those words. i dont know how you can prove that. even a sahih sanad doesnt prove it. it has to be checked against the quran. but thing is, even then it doesnt guarantee that the words were spoken by an infallible.

for me to prove a sahih hadith wrong, you first have to prove a hadith sahih. 

how do you judge what is right and wrong?

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1 minute ago, just a muslim said:

and even if it matches the quran, how do you know it is sahih? how do you know the infallible said it? and a narrator didnt just fabricate it? 

If it does match with quran it means that there is no harm accepting it. isn't it?

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2 minutes ago, Ron_Burgundy said:

If it does match with quran it means that there is no harm accepting it. isn't it?

true. but that would mean that i dont have to look at ahadith. i should just go about my life and accept anything from everyone as long as it matches the quran and that would have the same significance as the hadith. 

we still cant prove that the hadith was said by the infallible

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Just now, just a muslim said:

true. but that would mean that i dont have to look at ahadith. i should just go about my life and accept anything from everyone as long as it matches the quran and that would have the same significance as the hadith. 

we still cant prove that the hadith was said by the infallible

Well you can't prove anything from history. There is always be what if. can you prove it that these are not the words of Imam?

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5 minutes ago, Ron_Burgundy said:

Well you can't prove anything from history. There is always be what if. can you prove it that these are not the words of Imam?

yes. there will always be what if. which is why we need a reason to trust it. that the sahih hadith is actually sahih. that the narrators are actually reliable. 

if we cant prove something to be false, does that mean it becomes true?

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37 minutes ago, just a muslim said:

 

you first have to prove that a hadith is sahih. and when i say prove it, i mean prove that the prophet pbuh or the imams actually said those words. i dont know how you can prove that. even a sahih sanad doesnt prove it. it has to be checked against the quran. but thing is, even then it doesnt guarantee that the words were spoken by an infallible.

 

We cannot prove that a narration-whether mentioned in shia or sunni books- are 100% the exact words of the Prophet-s- or Imams(a).

But when the evidence shows that most likely they are the words of infallible (when they are not against Quran, aql and ethics and narrated by probably reliable people), then your common sense tells you to believe it.

P.S: Can you prove that Quran 100% is God's words? (I believe it but I cannot 100% prove it).

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2 minutes ago, shadow_of_light said:

We cannot prove that a narration-whether mentioned in shia or sunni books- are 100% the exact words of the Prophet-s- or Imams(a).

But when the evidence shows that most likely they are the words of infallible (when they are not against Quran, aql and ethics and narrated by probably reliable people), then your common sense tells you to believe it.

P.S: Can you prove that Quran 100% is God's words? (I believe it but I cannot 100% prove it).

i cant even prove the quran is 1 percent God's word. that is our belief. but i can prove that the quran is 100 % as it was recited/said by the prophet pbuh. 

if we cant be sure about any particular hadith 100%, then how can hadith be a source of religion? 

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