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In the Name of God بسم الله
just a muslim

question again

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3 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

Did I write that Umar rejected prophethood? Umar questioned the Prophet's prophethood to his face and behind his back.... out of 'love' of course. Read up on the true accounts of Hudaibiya.

i have yet to come across the story you are referring to about hudaibiya in an authentic report. 

3 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

Common sense. Is it wajib to pray fajr or is it wajib to pray 2-rakat fajr?

it is wajib to pray 2 rakat fajr. but you know why? not because of common sense. because the prophet said pray as you saw me praying. and also because we cant change anything in religion as that would be bidah.

4 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

I believe the sermons, letters and sayings are authentic. But we don't base our faith on it and definitely don't accept/reject the Quran based on Nahjul Balagha.

If it turns out that 50% of nahjul balagha is false, it wouldn't matter to us. But if you found out that 50% of Sahih Bukhari is false, you core belief system will come crashing down.

you are giving a book other than quran the same status as quran? that it is 100% authentic? 

no. my core belief system will not come crashing down.

i believe most of the ahadith in bukhari are authentic. and i also dont base my faith on it nor do i accept/reject the quran based on it. what i said way back was something different. and could have been expressed in a better way.

4 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

[Shakir 53:1] I swear by the star when it goes down.
[Shakir 53:2] Your companion does not err, nor does he go astray;
[Shakir 53:3] Nor does he speak out of desire.
[Shakir 53:4] It is naught but revelation that is revealed,
[Shakir 53:5] The Lord of Mighty Power has taught him,
[Shakir 53:6] The Lord of Strength; so he attained completion,

Surely you don't believe that all revelation became Quran???

of course not. he would sometimes answer people's queries. that would also be revelation. matters of religion, revelation. other matters, no. he was a messenger. yes. but he did said and did things in his human capacity as well. 

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2 hours ago, just a muslim said:

i have yet to come across the story you are referring to about hudaibiya in an authentic report. 

http://umar-ibn-khattab.blogspot.com/2013/07/umars-doubting-prophethood-of-muhammad.html?m=1

Next your excuse for Umar will be that he was so passionate about hajj or some other sorry excuse to cover for his misgivings.

2 hours ago, just a muslim said:

it is wajib to pray 2 rakat fajr. but you know why? not because of common sense. because the prophet said pray as you saw me praying. and also because we cant change anything in religion as that would be bidah.

Read up from my first comment on this. As long as you are saying it is wajib to recite 2-rakat for Fajr, you are simply saying what I said, just failing to agree.

Praying 1 or more than 2 would be haram, not bidah. More so because sunnis believe in good bidah and bad bidah whereas there is no good haram.

2 hours ago, just a muslim said:

you are giving a book other than quran the same status as quran? that it is 100% authentic? 

no. my core belief system will not come crashing down.

i believe most of the ahadith in bukhari are authentic. and i also dont base my faith on it nor do i accept/reject the quran based on it. what i said way back was something different. and could have been expressed in a better way.

You need to read more slowly. I said even if Nahum Balagha was 50% wrong or 99% wrong, my faith would stay in tact. But yours depends on  Sahih Bukhari and Muslim. You can gone from 100% authentic to almost. Almost is not sahih so our discussion can end. no?

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The Holy Prophet Muhammad (sawas) said: "I shall be succeeded by twelve religious leaders, all of whom will be of Quraysh´ite origin." (al-Bukhari as-Sahih)

"The twelve Imams are these sacred personages and spiritual leaders about whom the Holy Prophet had prophesied. Pointing them out as the source and means of guidance for mankind, the Holy Prophet remarked: "so long as my twelve successors will continue to govern, this religion (islam) will exist (in this world). (Abu Dawud, as-Sunan)

Before even looking at ahadith, it is always best to refer to the Holy Quran. 

Fee-amanillah

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11 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

http://umar-ibn-khattab.blogspot.com/2013/07/umars-doubting-prophethood-of-muhammad.html?m=1

Next your excuse for Umar will be that he was so passionate about hajj or some other sorry excuse to cover for his misgivings.

what do you find wrong with the hadith you linked me?

11 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

Read up from my first comment on this. As long as you are saying it is wajib to recite 2-rakat for Fajr, you are simply saying what I said, just failing to agree.

Praying 1 or more than 2 would be haram, not bidah. More so because sunnis believe in good bidah and bad bidah whereas there is no good haram.

bidah is haram. no such thing as good bidah or bad bidah. every bidah is misguidance. and every misguidance leads to fire. you are not talking to sunnis. you are talking to me. i am not your day to day ignorant sunni. i dont share the mainstream sunni beliefs if i find them incorrect.

in case you think i dont know about the alleged bidah of taraweeh started by umar and refer me to it, dont bother. ill say that it was incorrect of umar to use the word bidah there. as it was not technically a bidah, only literally. no need to get into this debate. this isnt the time nor the post for it.

11 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

You need to read more slowly. I said even if Nahum Balagha was 50% wrong or 99% wrong, my faith would stay in tact. But yours depends on  Sahih Bukhari and Muslim. You can gone from 100% authentic to almost. Almost is not sahih so our discussion can end. no?

i dont say bukhari is 100 % correct. nor do i believe it. most sunnis believe it. but they are wrong. 

my faith does not depend on bukhari or muslim.

when i say almost, i mean most of the ahadith are sahih. and even if 50% of the sahih ones turned out to be wrong, my faith would still be intact.

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On 10/19/2017 at 7:36 AM, just a muslim said:

i would like to believe that you are a sensible person. but what you wrote has nothing to do with my question. i ask again, why do you trust the people who narrated the narrations? just give me a one or two line answer if possible. no background buildup or anything or the sort. 

because one is from a pure source while the other is from a source that has been proven to be corrupt. All you have to do is increase your knolwedge about all the figures in play.. for example. do you know who khalid bin waleed is?

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10 hours ago, kirtc said:

because one is from a pure source while the other is from a source that has been proven to be corrupt. All you have to do is increase your knolwedge about all the figures in play.. for example. do you know who khalid bin waleed is?

and the "fact" that one is from a pure source while the other is from a corrupt source. how do you know that? through those very same pure sources, right? you can simply answer in yes or no.

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7 hours ago, just a muslim said:

and the "fact" that one is from a pure source while the other is from a corrupt source. how do you know that? through those very same pure sources, right? you can simply answer in yes or no.

you never answer my questions.. and you repeat the same question over and over...answer my questions first to get your answer... you never even said anything about the first chapter of nahjul balagha.. i doubt you read it.. now 1 more time. do you know khalid bin waleed?

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1 hour ago, kirtc said:

you never answer my questions.. and you repeat the same question over and over...answer my questions first to get your answer... you never even said anything about the first chapter of nahjul balagha.. i doubt you read it.. now 1 more time. do you know khalid bin waleed?

i know he was a companion. accepted islam right before hudaibiya.

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1 hour ago, just a muslim said:

i know he was a companion. accepted islam right before hudaibiya.

read some sahih and bukhari hadith on him... he killed a man so that he can marry the man's wife in the same night. this is who abu bakr made the leader of the army. the more you know the easier it becomes to distinguish

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12 minutes ago, kirtc said:

read some sahih and bukhari hadith on him... he killed a man so that he can marry the man's wife in the same night. this is who abu bakr made the leader of the army. the more you know the easier it becomes to distinguish

could you refer me to a particular hadith? bukhari is quite big with more than 7000 hadith in it.

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22 hours ago, just a muslim said:

i dont say bukhari is 100 % correct. nor do i believe it. most sunnis believe it. but they are wrong. 

my faith does not depend on bukhari or muslim.

Do you know of a reliable online source that identifies which of the ahadith in Bukhari are incorrect/weak?

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[5] . Al-Bokhari, Abou Abdullah al-Ja'fi, Al-Juma al-Sahih al-Mukhtasar, v.14, p. 253, Dar ibn Kathir, Beirut, third volume, 1407 AH

 

https://muflihun.com/bukhari/89/299

https://sunnah.com/bukhari/64/368

http://www.ahlalhdeeth.com/vbe/forum/aqeedah-refutation-of-deviant-sects/15207-shia-attack-on-khalid-bin-waleed-from-the-hadith-of-bukhari

 

https://muflihun.com/bukhari/55/558

[5] . البخاری، أبو عبدالله الجعفی، الجامع الصحیح المختصر، ج 14، ص 253، دار ابن کثیر، بیروت، طبع سوم، 1407ق.

 

http://www.islamquest.net/fa/archive/question/fa23632

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A//www.islamquest.net/fa/archive/question/fa23632

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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1 hour ago, just a muslim said:

could you refer me to a particular hadith? bukhari is quite big with more than 7000 hadith in it.

 

https://sunnah.com/bukhari/64/368

it should also be noted khalid bin walid was fighting against the Prophet saaw in the battle of uhd. so this is the man chosen by abu bakr to lead the muslim army. 

also the money of the ummah was distributed unequally by abu bakr.. he gave more money to the powerful quraish which made mouaeiya even richer.  Imam Ali  a.s took back the money when he was caliph to distribute it evenly.. and this is why they killed him. 

Imam Ali  a.s was born the kaabah and raised by the Prophet himself. Married his daughter. There are hadiths that say that he left the matter of who should marry his daughter to Allah z. Ali a.s took over khayber after omar and abu bakr failed. He was the prophet's most loyal companion. 

so tell me bro, do we follow abu bakr or Imam Ali a.s?

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1 hour ago, asaravastu said:

Do you know of a reliable online source that identifies which of the ahadith in Bukhari are incorrect/weak?

no. i dont think there is any such source online. 

just to make something clear though. the claim of authenticity by imam bukhari is only for those ahadith in his book which have a continuous chain. there are some ahadith which he mentions without a sanad or with an incomplete sanad, for multiple reasons. he does not claim that those ahadith are authentic. coming back to the ahadtih with continuous chain, i am sure of at least 1 hadith in them being incorrect. but these ahadith are not about something major. they mostly have to do with minor issues or historical events. so, even if one rejects those ahadith or is unaware of their inauthenticity and takes them to be authentic, it wont affect a persons beliefs about islam. 

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2 hours ago, kirtc said:

read some sahih and bukhari hadith on him... he killed a man so that he can marry the man's wife in the same night. this is who abu bakr made the leader of the army. the more you know the easier it becomes to distinguish

 

40 minutes ago, kirtc said:

this hadith does not speak of any such event. 

41 minutes ago, kirtc said:

also the money of the ummah was distributed unequally by abu bakr.. he gave more money to the powerful quraish which made mouaeiya even richer.  Imam Ali  a.s took back the money when he was caliph to distribute it evenly.. and this is why they killed him. 

Imam Ali  a.s was born the kaabah and raised by the Prophet himself. Married his daughter. There are hadiths that say that he left the matter of who should marry his daughter to Allah z. Ali a.s took over khayber after omar and abu bakr failed. He was the prophet's most loyal companion. 

so tell me bro, do we follow abu bakr or Imam Ali a.s?

how do you know all this? emphasis on the word "know". 

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14 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

all sources for the article seem to be history books. not a single hadith book or reference to a chain of narrators.

9 minutes ago, kirtc said:

walla im tired... go google.  you are wasting our time.

i could say the same to you. everything you mentioned, each of them did not happen. go google the sources.

that is not how things work brother. you made a claim of knowledge. the burden of proof is on you. if you are not willing to provide proof, then it is useless for you to claim something in the first place. 

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22 minutes ago, just a muslim said:
33 minutes ago, kirtc said:

 

i could say the same to you. everything you mentioned, each of them did not happen. go google the sources.

that is not how things work brother. you made a claim of knowledge. the burden of proof is on you. if you are not willing to provide proof, then it is useless for you to claim something in the first place. 

There is  very rare that you find debates  about Shia sunni dialogues in non persian/farsi & some Arabic sources

Most of english source just mentioned

Sunni view & neglected shia source

even in Wikipedia  shia view very briefly & shortended mentioned 

& most of proofs is on persian/farsi links

 lacks foreign translation & most of them are just mix of farsi& Arabic language.

Sorry for bothering you

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2 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

There is  very rare that you find debates  about Shia sunni dialogues in non persian/farsi & some Arabic sources

Most of english source just mentioned

Sunni view & neglected shia source

even in Wikipedia  shia view very briefly & shortended mentioned 

& most of proofs is on persian/farsi links

 lacks foreign translation & most of them are just mix of farsi& Arabic language.

Sorry for bothering you

yeah i saw that

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Some sites as 

www.al-Islam.org (Eng & fra)

 

(multi language) 

www.sibtayn.com

www.valiasr-aj.com

www.al-shia.org 

www.wikishia.org

www.shiachat.com :grin:

www.fourshiabooks.com

www.islamquest.net

are starting & under developing for shia/sunni debates on foreign language are available.

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On 12/20/2017 at 10:32 AM, just a muslim said:

what do you find wrong with the hadith you linked me?

There is absolutely nothing wrong with any 'Muslim' questioning Muhammad's (saw) prophethood to his face and upon getting an unsatisfactory answer from Muhammad (saw), going to someone else to backbite about Muhammad (saw) and casting doubt on his prophethood. Welcome to Sunni Islam.

On 12/20/2017 at 10:32 AM, just a muslim said:

bidah is haram. no such thing as good bidah or bad bidah. every bidah is misguidance. and every misguidance leads to fire. you are not talking to sunnis. you are talking to me. i am not your day to day ignorant sunni. i dont share the mainstream sunni beliefs if i find them incorrect.

in case you think i dont know about the alleged bidah of taraweeh started by umar and refer me to it, dont bother. ill say that it was incorrect of umar to use the word bidah there. as it was not technically a bidah, only literally. no need to get into this debate. this isnt the time nor the post for it.

So I am assuming you don't pray taraweeh. Additionally, I hope you do not say "as salat khair minan naum" which some Sunnis classify as good bidah as well.

On 12/20/2017 at 10:32 AM, just a muslim said:

i dont say bukhari is 100 % correct. nor do i believe it. most sunnis believe it. but they are wrong. 

my faith does not depend on bukhari or muslim.

when i say almost, i mean most of the ahadith are sahih. and even if 50% of the sahih ones turned out to be wrong, my faith would still be intact.

A while ago you said you base your belief in the Quran because of the hadith books. Now you are saying you don't. Mashallah, I congratulate you on starting to change your view on Islam as you know it. This is the first step inshallah towards following proper Islam as preached by the Prophet (saw) and explained by the AhlulBayt.

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1 hour ago, shiaman14 said:

There is absolutely nothing wrong with any 'Muslim' questioning Muhammad's (saw) prophethood to his face and upon getting an unsatisfactory answer from Muhammad (saw), going to someone else to backbite about Muhammad (saw) and casting doubt on his prophethood. Welcome to Sunni Islam.

look. the only reason we are disagreeing here and interpreting the same event in two opposite ways is because of many other ahadith we believe in. you have ahadith. i assume, which say umar killed fatimah s.a. i have ahadith giving virtues of umar. keeping them in mind, we interpret the hadith in question in different ways. and we wont ever come to a conclusion if we believe in different sets of ahadith. so there is no point in arguing about the ahadith such as above.

1 hour ago, shiaman14 said:

So I am assuming you don't pray taraweeh. Additionally, I hope you do not say "as salat khair minan naum" which some Sunnis classify as good bidah as well.

i do. because like i said, i dont believe it to be a bidah. but regardless, i wouldnt if i found a masjid which didnt pray taraweeh and finished prayer right after isha.

the statement is not a bidah. it is a sunnah. you are basing your views on unauthentic ahadith and stories. umar did not start it.

1 hour ago, shiaman14 said:

A while ago you said you base your belief in the Quran because of the hadith books. Now you are saying you don't. Mashallah, I congratulate you on starting to change your view on Islam as you know it. This is the first step inshallah towards following proper Islam as preached by the Prophet (saw) and explained by the AhlulBayt.

right after that i clarified what i meant. i believe in the quran because of the quran itself. i believe the mushaf today is the same as that 1400 years ago because of the sanad which is authenticated using sunni rijal books. to believe in the latter without evidence is the same as christians believing bible is the same as original.

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1 hour ago, just a muslim said:

look. the only reason we are disagreeing here and interpreting the same event in two opposite ways is because of many other ahadith we believe in. you have ahadith. i assume, which say umar killed fatimah s.a. i have ahadith giving virtues of umar. keeping them in mind, we interpret the hadith in question in different ways. and we wont ever come to a conclusion if we believe in different sets of ahadith. so there is no point in arguing about the ahadith such as above.

Did Caliph Umar question the Prophethood of Prophet Muhammad (saw)? It's a Y/N question. 

1 hour ago, just a muslim said:

i do. because like i said, i dont believe it to be a bidah. but regardless, i wouldnt if i found a masjid which didnt pray taraweeh and finished prayer right after isha.

Even though the Prophet expressly forbade reciting it in jama'at in mosques. There are authentic sunni hadith that say so.

1 hour ago, just a muslim said:

the statement is not a bidah. it is a sunnah. you are basing your views on unauthentic ahadith and stories. umar did not start it.

So who started it? The Prophet? Proof?

1 hour ago, just a muslim said:

right after that i clarified what i meant. i believe in the quran because of the quran itself. i believe the mushaf today is the same as that 1400 years ago because of the sanad which is authenticated using sunni rijal books. to believe in the latter without evidence is the same as christians believing bible is the same as original.

I guess you changed your mind. You were pretty adamant about why you believed in the Quran.

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1 hour ago, shiaman14 said:

Did Caliph Umar question the Prophethood of Prophet Muhammad (saw)? It's a Y/N question. 

if by question you mean a rhetorical question to which he knew the answer, he did question it. if you mean did he doubt it, then no. he didnt understand why they were doing it. didnt see the logic behind it, just like shias generally try to understand everything and dismiss it if it goes against logic(talk about irony). he shouldnt have. no doubt about that. but it is not something which you can claim kufr or dishonesty on.

1 hour ago, shiaman14 said:

Even though the Prophet expressly forbade reciting it in jama'at in mosques. There are authentic sunni hadith that say so.

two things here. firstly, the people were ALREADY praying in multiple small jama'ats. all caliph umar did was combine them into one jamaat. secondly, when the prophet pbuh "forbade" reciting/praying the night prayer in jamaat, what was the reason he gave for it?

1 hour ago, shiaman14 said:

So who started it? The Prophet? Proof?

yes. 

"Abu Mahdhurah reported; I said; Messenger of Allah, teach me the method of ADHAN (how to pronounce the call to prayer). He wiped my forehead (with his hand) and asked me to pronounce; Allah is most great. Allah is most great. Allah is most great. Allah is most great, raising your voice while saying them (these words). Then you must raise your voice in making the testimony:

I testify that there is no god but Allah, I testify that there is no god but Allah; I testify that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, I testify that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah. Lowering your voice while saying them (these words). Then you must raise your voice in making the testimony: I testify that there is no god but Allah, I testify there is no god but Allah; I testify Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, I testify Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah. Come to prayer, come to prayer; come to salvation, come to salvation. If it is the morning prayer, you must pronounce; prayer is better than sleep, prayer is better than sleep, Allah is most great; there is no god but Allah."

sunan abi dawud, hadith number 500.

there you go. 

Edited by just a muslim
referencing

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15 hours ago, just a muslim said:

if by question you mean a rhetorical question to which he knew the answer, he did question it. if you mean did he doubt it, then no. he didnt understand why they were doing it. didnt see the logic behind it, just like shias generally try to understand everything and dismiss it if it goes against logic(talk about irony). he shouldnt have. no doubt about that. but it is not something which you can claim kufr or dishonesty on.

If Caliph Umar had just asked the Prophet (saw) or just asked Caliph Abu Bakr, you may have a point. But the fact that he asked the Prophet (saw), then asked Caliph Abu Bakr and still wasn't satisfied clearly shows him questioning the Prophet's (saw) decision. Not just the decision but Prophethood itself. On top of everything, for some one frequently ran from battlefields, he sure was adamant to fight the kuffar of Mecca near their base even though the Muslims went without weapons. Some might even think he wanted the Muslims massacred but who knows why.

yes, as shias we rejected illogical beliefs and statements. There was nothing illogical about the Prophet (saw) signing a Peace Treaty. What is illogical people defending and revering  a person who offends the Prophet to his face. He might as well have drawn a cartoon of the Prophet (saw).

15 hours ago, just a muslim said:

two things here. firstly, the people were ALREADY praying in multiple small jama'ats. all caliph umar did was combine them into one jamaat. secondly, when the prophet pbuh "forbade" reciting/praying the night prayer in jamaat, what was the reason he gave for it?

Yes, people were praying in small jama''at and the Prophet (saw) told them not to. But then here came the simple-minded Caliph who couldn't understand when to make peace and when to make war and decided to overrule the Prophet...again

15 hours ago, just a muslim said:

"Abu Mahdhurah reported; I said; Messenger of Allah, teach me the method of ADHAN (how to pronounce the call to prayer). He wiped my forehead (with his hand) and asked me to pronounce; Allah is most great. Allah is most great. Allah is most great. Allah is most great, raising your voice while saying them (these words). Then you must raise your voice in making the testimony:

I testify that there is no god but Allah, I testify that there is no god but Allah; I testify that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, I testify that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah. Lowering your voice while saying them (these words). Then you must raise your voice in making the testimony: I testify that there is no god but Allah, I testify there is no god but Allah; I testify Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, I testify Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah. Come to prayer, come to prayer; come to salvation, come to salvation. If it is the morning prayer, you must pronounce; prayer is better than sleep, prayer is better than sleep, Allah is most great; there is no god but Allah."

sunan abi dawud, hadith number 500.

there you go. 

Thanks for this. I didn't know this existed and is even graded 'sahih'. Of course there are other hadith that state this was started by Caliph Umar and also hadith where Ibn Umar calls this an innovation...also graded 'sahih'

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8 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

If Caliph Umar had just asked the Prophet (saw) or just asked Caliph Abu Bakr, you may have a point. But the fact that he asked the Prophet (saw), then asked Caliph Abu Bakr and still wasn't satisfied clearly shows him questioning the Prophet's (saw) decision. Not just the decision but Prophethood itself. On top of everything, for some one frequently ran from battlefields, he sure was adamant to fight the kuffar of Mecca near their base even though the Muslims went without weapons. Some might even think he wanted the Muslims massacred but who knows why.

1. where did you get that from?

2. he simply didnt understand the decision. and i explain why below.

8 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

es, as shias we rejected illogical beliefs and statements. There was nothing illogical about the Prophet (saw) signing a Peace Treaty. What is illogical people defending and revering  a person who offends the Prophet to his face. He might as well have drawn a cartoon of the Prophet (saw).

do you know the terms of the treaty of hudaibiya? the terms said that if someone from makkah accepted islam, and migrated to madinah, the prophet pbuh would send that person back and not allow him abode in makkah. but if a person in madinah were to accept the religion of polytheists, and migrated to makkah, the prophet pbuh would not stop him and makkans would accept him. does that seem logical to you? on face value, it seems absurd. only now do we see the wisdom of it after everything panned out as it did. but it would have been nearly impossible to see the wisdom behind it at that time. hence the multiple questions from both, the prophet and abu bakr. 

8 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

Yes, people were praying in small jama''at and the Prophet (saw) told them not to. But then here came the simple-minded Caliph who couldn't understand when to make peace and when to make war and decided to overrule the Prophet...again

i also asked you why the prophet pbuh didnt come out from jama'ah on the 4th night? what reason did he give. 

also, he never expressly forbade it or use the word forbidden to the best of my knowledge.

8 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

Thanks for this. I didn't know this existed and is even graded 'sahih'. Of course there are other hadith that state this was started by Caliph Umar and also hadith where Ibn Umar calls this an innovation...also graded 'sahih'

the only hadith i am aware of about umar starting this is the one where a person says to umar prayer is better than sleep and umar says put it in the azaan. and the hadith is not authentic. even if you were to somehow justify it, EVEN IF, then the meaning could easily be taken as the person not knowing that the phrase is in the azaan and umar telling him it is supposed to be said in azaan, not told individually to everyone. again, this is only a bonus explanation, so to speak. the hadith isnt authentic in the first place. if you think there are other ahadith that make such claims, present them and we shall discuss.

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4 hours ago, just a muslim said:

the only hadith i am aware of about umar starting this is the one where a person says to umar prayer is better than sleep and umar says put it in the azaan. and the hadith is not authentic. even if you were to somehow justify it, EVEN IF, then the meaning could easily be taken as the person not knowing that the phrase is in the azaan and umar telling him it is supposed to be said in azaan, not told individually to everyone. again, this is only a bonus explanation, so to speak. the hadith isnt authentic in the first place. if you think there are other ahadith that make such claims, present them and we shall discuss.

Zurqani narrates the same issue in Ta’liqah.60 Master Sunni biographists have validated the narrators in both document chains and in general, there is no fallacy in the documents cited by the Sunni jurisprudents.61 Shawkani, about Al-Salat Khayrun Min al-Nawm, quotes the following from Al-Bahr Al-Zukhar:

When Umar invented this phrase, his son told him, “This is heresy.” When hearing this phrase, Ali is narrated as saying, “Do not add anything to the Adhan.” The author of Al-Bahr Al-Zukhar, after citing the tradition of Abu Mahdhurah and Bilal says, “If tathwib were religiously allowed, Ali, Ibn Umar and Tawus would not deny it.” As a conclusion from the traditions, we accept this issue (tathwib), not religiously, but if said as an additional part of Adhan.62

It is narrated from Abu Hanifah from Hammad from Ibrahim in Jami’ Al-Masanid

I asked him about tathwib and he replied, “People have made tathwib and it is a good thing they have made. Tathwib includes saying Al-Salat Khayrun Min al-Nawm twice, after Adhan.” Imam Muhammad Ibn Hasan Shaybani has cited this tradition in Athar from Abu Hanifah saying, “This is Abu Hanifah’s statement and we follow it.”63

  • 60. Al-Ta’liqah, Vol. 1, p. 25 (quoted from Al-Nass wa Al-Ijtihad).
  • 61. For the biography of each of them see: Tahdhib Al-Tahdhib.
  • 62. Nayl Al-Awtar, Vol. 2, p. 43.
  • 63. Jami’ Al-Masanid, Vol. 1, p. 296 (as quoted From Al-I’tisam)

Bayhaqi quotes from a chain of narrators reaching Muhammad Ibn Yahya that among the traditions narrated by Abdullah Ibn Zayd about Adhan, none is more valid than this one narrated by Muhamad Ibn Ishaq from Muhammad Ibn Ibrahim Al-Taymi from Muhammad Ibn Abdullah Ibn Zayd, because Muhammad has heard this tradition from his father.

We now discuss the validity of the document of this tradition, beginning from Muhammad Ibn Ishaq who is the first one in the chain of narrators. Al-Darqutni writes about him, “Master scholars have had controversy about him. He is not proof, though is regarded as a narrator.”24 Also, Ahmad Ibn Hanbal has regarded Muhammad Ibn Ishaq as doubtful in numerous traditions. Abu Dawud says, “I heard Ahmad Ibn Hanbal saying about Muhammad Ibn Ishaq, ‘He was a man who narrated traditions out of whim. He took other narrators’ books and adopted their traditions in his own books.’”25 Also, Al-Maruzi says, “Ahmad Ibn Hanbal said, ‘Muhammad Ibn Ishaq altered the facts. When he entered Baghdad, it made no difference for him whether to narrate traditions from Kalbi or others.’”26

  • 24. Ibn Hajar, Tahdhib Al-Tahdhib, Vol. 9, p.43 and 44.
  • 25. Ibn Hajar, Tahdhib Al-Tahdhib, Hydar Abad 1326, Vol. 9, p. 43.
  • 26. Ibn Hajar, Tahdhib Al-Tahdhib, Vol. 9, p. 43.

https://www.al-islam.org/shiism-sunnism-ayatullah-sayyid-muhammad-ridha-mudarrisi-yazdi/tradition-and-heresy-adhan-call#examining-tradition-dream

http://www.uwyo.edu/religionet/er/islam/iglossry.htm

According to Imamiyya (Shi'a)

The practice of reciting Adhan began in the first two years after Hijra, following the redirection of Qibla from Masjid al-'Aqsa to the Ka'ba.[4] According to Imamiyya sources, the holy Prophet (s) received Adhan by means of divine revelation. Archangel Jibra'il recited it for the first time during the night of Mi'raj. When he recited it once again, the holy Prophet (s) ordered Imam 'Ali (a) to teach it to Bilal b. Rabah.[5] This has also been reported in Isma'iliyya[6] sources with slight differences.

http://en.wikishia.net/view/Adhan

Shi’a and the religious outset of Adhan

All Imamiyyah jurisprudents, following the Ahl al-Bayt (a.s), believe that Adhanbegan with God’s order and revelation to the Prophet’s heart. Various traditions have been narrated from the Ahl al-Bayt (a.s) supporting this meaning:

Kulayni, in Al-Kafi, narrates:

…لمّا أُسْرِيَ بِرَسولِ اللهِ صلّى اللهُ عليهِ وآلِهِ وسلَّم إلى السَّماءِ فَبَلغَ البَيتَ المَعمورَ وَحَضَرتِ الصّلاةُ، أذَّنَ جِبرَئيلُ وأقامَ فَتَقدَّمَ رَسولُ اللهِ صلّى اللهُ عليهِ وآلِهِ وسلَّم وَصَفَّ المَلائِكَةُ وَالنّبيّونَ خَلْفَ مُحَمَّد صلّى اللهُ عليهِ وآلِهِ وسلَّم .

Imam Baqir (a.s) said: When the Messenger of Allah (a.s) was ascended to the heaven and reached Al-Bayt Al-Ma’mur,2 the prayer time came. So, (Archangel) Gabriel called out Adhan and iqamah. The Prophet (a.s) stood in front and the angels and Prophets queued behind him.3

…لمّا هَبطَ جِبرَئيلُ بالأذانِ عَلى رَسولِ اللهِ كانَ رأسُهُ في حِجْرِ عليٍّ عَليهِ السَّلامُ فأذَّنَ جِبرَئيلُ عَليهِ السَّلامُ وأقامَ، فَلَمّا انْتَبَهَ رَسولُ اللهِ صلّى اللهُ عليهِ وآلِهِ وسلَّم قال: يا عَليُّ! أسَمِعْتَ؟ قالَ نعم. قال: ادْعُ بِلالاً فَعَلِّمْهُ. فَدَعا عليٌّ عَليهِ السَّلامُ بِلالاً فَعَلَّمَه.

Imam Sadiq (a.s) said: When Gabriel descended to the Prophet (a.s) bearing Adhan, his honorable head was on Ali’s leg. Gabriel called out Adhan and iqamah. When the Prophet recovered back to normal state, he asked Ali, ‘Did you hear that?’ ‘Yes!’ he replied. ‘Did you memorize it?’ the Prophet asked again. Ali answered, ‘Yes!’ The Prophet stated, ‘Call Bilal and teach him the Adhan.’ Ali called Bilal and taught him the Adhan.4

These two traditions include two times of calling out the Adhan by Gabriel, once for the Prophet in his Ascension to heaven and the other for the religious declaration of it. Attention must be paid to the fact that the frequency of a revelation, even if it is twice, is quite important.

  • 2. Al-Bayt Al-Ma’mur is the counterpart of the Holy Ka’ba (Allah’s House) in the heaven around which the angles revolve.
  • 3. Al-Furu’ min Al-Kafi, Dar Al-Kutub Al-Islamiyyah, Vol. 3, Bab bada’a Al-Adhan wa Al-Iqamah wa fazlaha wa thawabahuma, p. 302, Hadith 1 and 2.
  • 4. Ibid.

https://www.al-islam.org/shiism-sunnism-ayatullah-sayyid-muhammad-ridha-mudarrisi-yazdi/tradition-and-heresy-adhan-call#shia-and-religious-outset-adhan

Tribute to Muhammad and his Household (saying “اللهم صلِّ على مُحَمَّد وآل مُحَمَّد Allahumma Salli Ala Muhammad(in) wa Aali Muhammad) after mentioning the name of the Prophet (a.s) is recommended as is completing the testimonies by the testimony to the Wilayah and Imamate of Ali (a.s), in both Adhan and iqamah.

Whoever has denied the testimony to Ali’s Wilayah in Adhan, regarding it as heresy, has made mistake and has as uncommon belief. The caller to Adhan in Islam [usually added phrases to the beginning and the end of Adhan—phrases that are not derived from the religion, but still they are not heresy and adding them is not forbidden. The reason is that the callers to Adhan do not consider these phrases as parts of Adhan, and include them just due to the general arguments.81 The testimony to Ali’s Wilayah is subject to these general arguments. Moreover, short phrases from the people themselves do not nullify Adhan and iqamah.82 To say these during Adhan and iqamah is therefore not forbidden…”83

Consequently, since naming Ali (a.s) is as worship, there is no doubt about the preference of mentioning his name in general and in Adhan, in particular. As Muttaqi Hindi narrates in Kanz Al-Ummal:

ذِكْرُ عَلِيٍّ عِبادَةٌ.

Mentioning Ali’s name is as worship.84

https://www.al-islam.org/shiism-sunnism-ayatullah-sayyid-muhammad-ridha-mudarrisi-yazdi/tradition-and-heresy-adhan-call#testimony-alis-wilayah-adhan

http://www.fourshiabooks.com/hadith/al-kafi/12/18/2

http://www.fourshiabooks.com/hadith/al-kafi/12/18/3

"The Holy Prophet has said, "They then saluted me and asked about my brother and I said, 'He is on 
earth. Do you know him?' They replied, 'How can we forget him? We every year perform Hajj of Bayt 
al-Ma'mur where there is a white board on which there are the names of Muhammad, Ali, al-Hassan, 
al-Husayn, all A'immah and their followers till the Day of Judgment. We congratulate them every day 
and night five times' - meaning thereby the five times Salat (prayer) - 'and they wipe their heads with 
their hands.'" 

http://www.fourshiabooks.com/hadith/al-kafi/12/101/1

http://www.shiapen.com/fiqh/ali-un-wali-Allah/adhan-call-to-prayers.html

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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22 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

http://www.uwyo.edu/religionet/er/islam/iglossry.htm

According to Imamiyya (Shi'a)

The practice of reciting Adhan began in the first two years after Hijra, following the redirection of Qibla from Masjid al-'Aqsa to the Ka'ba.[4] According to Imamiyya sources, the holy Prophet (s) received Adhan by means of divine revelation. Archangel Jibra'il recited it for the first time during the night of Mi'raj. When he recited it once again, the holy Prophet (s) ordered Imam 'Ali (a) to teach it to Bilal b. Rabah.[5] This has also been reported in Isma'iliyya[6] sources with slight differences.

http://en.wikishia.net/view/Adhan

Shi’a and the religious outset of Adhan

All Imamiyyah jurisprudents, following the Ahl al-Bayt (a.s), believe that Adhanbegan with God’s order and revelation to the Prophet’s heart. Various traditions have been narrated from the Ahl al-Bayt (a.s) supporting this meaning:

Kulayni, in Al-Kafi, narrates:

…لمّا أُسْرِيَ بِرَسولِ اللهِ صلّى اللهُ عليهِ وآلِهِ وسلَّم إلى السَّماءِ فَبَلغَ البَيتَ المَعمورَ وَحَضَرتِ الصّلاةُ، أذَّنَ جِبرَئيلُ وأقامَ فَتَقدَّمَ رَسولُ اللهِ صلّى اللهُ عليهِ وآلِهِ وسلَّم وَصَفَّ المَلائِكَةُ وَالنّبيّونَ خَلْفَ مُحَمَّد صلّى اللهُ عليهِ وآلِهِ وسلَّم .

Imam Baqir (a.s) said: When the Messenger of Allah (a.s) was ascended to the heaven and reached Al-Bayt Al-Ma’mur,2 the prayer time came. So, (Archangel) Gabriel called out Adhan and iqamah. The Prophet (a.s) stood in front and the angels and Prophets queued behind him.3

…لمّا هَبطَ جِبرَئيلُ بالأذانِ عَلى رَسولِ اللهِ كانَ رأسُهُ في حِجْرِ عليٍّ عَليهِ السَّلامُ فأذَّنَ جِبرَئيلُ عَليهِ السَّلامُ وأقامَ، فَلَمّا انْتَبَهَ رَسولُ اللهِ صلّى اللهُ عليهِ وآلِهِ وسلَّم قال: يا عَليُّ! أسَمِعْتَ؟ قالَ نعم. قال: ادْعُ بِلالاً فَعَلِّمْهُ. فَدَعا عليٌّ عَليهِ السَّلامُ بِلالاً فَعَلَّمَه.

Imam Sadiq (a.s) said: When Gabriel descended to the Prophet (a.s) bearing Adhan, his honorable head was on Ali’s leg. Gabriel called out Adhan and iqamah. When the Prophet recovered back to normal state, he asked Ali, ‘Did you hear that?’ ‘Yes!’ he replied. ‘Did you memorize it?’ the Prophet asked again. Ali answered, ‘Yes!’ The Prophet stated, ‘Call Bilal and teach him the Adhan.’ Ali called Bilal and taught him the Adhan.4

These two traditions include two times of calling out the Adhan by Gabriel, once for the Prophet in his Ascension to heaven and the other for the religious declaration of it. Attention must be paid to the fact that the frequency of a revelation, even if it is twice, is quite important.

  • 2. Al-Bayt Al-Ma’mur is the counterpart of the Holy Ka’ba (Allah’s House) in the heaven around which the angles revolve.
  • 3. Al-Furu’ min Al-Kafi, Dar Al-Kutub Al-Islamiyyah, Vol. 3, Bab bada’a Al-Adhan wa Al-Iqamah wa fazlaha wa thawabahuma, p. 302, Hadith 1 and 2.
  • 4. Ibid.

https://www.al-islam.org/shiism-sunnism-ayatullah-sayyid-muhammad-ridha-mudarrisi-yazdi/tradition-and-heresy-adhan-call#shia-and-religious-outset-adhan

http://www.shiapen.com/fiqh/ali-un-wali-Allah/adhan-call-to-prayers.html

we are not talking about the shia azaan brother.

as for the thread you shared, all the links in that are to the same hadith i already said is not authentic, or are from books such as kanzul amaal(btw, it is not a hadith book), which are not reliable books, to say the least. 

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4 hours ago, just a muslim said:

i also asked you why the prophet pbuh didnt come out from jama'ah on the 4th night? what reason did he give. 

also, he never expressly forbade it or use the word forbidden to the best of my knowledge

http://www.hawzah.net/fa/Magazine/View/4789/4809/40005/نماز-تراویح،-سنّت-یا-بدعت

Interpretation of "Phenomena"

 

Noteworthy, in the above narrative, the phrase "I'm afraid obligatory to you" is, why is it necessary to take care of a recommended act? According to Allameh Majlesi, Allah: the care of the good and the community on a verb of the mandao will never necessitate it, because God of excellence is unaware of the existence of corrupted and corrupted verbs in order to discover the community of its people! ... If the Prophet was afraid of the obligatory prayers of Naflah at night, with the people's actions, why should he be asked to read in their homes? And why did not they forbid them from performing Nawafel because of the fear of being obligated to do so ?! Suitable for this reasoning in the above narrative was to say: "I am afraid that the congregation will be obligatory upon you to read Nafela", not "obligatory Nafelah of the night", as it has been mentioned in some of their narrations. While they believe that in some Nawafel, such as Eid prayer, eclipse, ascension and prayer, the community is Mustahab and is not forbidden to read from their congregation. Therefore, if the narrative is correct, then it should be carried out that what God did not command should not be committed in the perpetrator; for example, the prayer of the night should not be obligatory because it would lead to a reincarnation in religion. Therefore, this narrative clearly implies that their actions (the congregation of the Navafel readings) are unpleasant and may cause the punishment from Allah, and now that is so, after the revelation is disconnected, it is not permissible to do so. (12)

12. See: Bihar al-Anwar, vol. 31, p. 12

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fa&u=http://www.hawzah.net/fa/Magazine/View/4789/4809/40005/%D9%86%D9%85%D8%A7%D8%B2-%D8%AA%D8%B1%D8%A7%D9%88%DB%8C%D8%AD%D8%8C-%D8%B3%D9%86%D9%91%D8%AA-%DB%8C%D8%A7-%D8%A8%D8%AF%D8%B9%D8%AA&prev=search

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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5 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

http://www.hawzah.net/fa/Magazine/View/4789/4809/40005/نماز-تراویح،-سنّت-یا-بدعت

Interpretation of "Phenomena"

 

Noteworthy, in the above narrative, the phrase "I'm afraid obligatory to you" is, why is it necessary to take care of a recommended act? According to Allameh Majlesi, Allah: the care of the good and the community on a verb of the mandao will never necessitate it, because God of excellence is unaware of the existence of corrupted and corrupted verbs in order to discover the community of its people! ... If the Prophet was afraid of the obligatory prayers of Naflah at night, with the people's actions, why should he be asked to read in their homes? And why did not they forbid them from performing Nawafel because of the fear of being obligated to do so ?! Suitable for this reasoning in the above narrative was to say: "I am afraid that the congregation will be obligatory upon you to read Naflai", not "obligatory Naflah of the night", as it has been mentioned in some of their narrations. While they believe that in some Nawafel, such as Eid prayer, eclipse, ascension and prayer, the community is Mustahab and is not forbidden to read from their congregation. Therefore, if the narrative is correct, then it should be carried out that what God did not command should not be committed in the perpetrator; for example, the prayer of the night should not be obligatory because it would lead to a reincarnation in religion. Therefore, this narrative clearly implies that their actions (the congregation of the Navafel readings) are unpleasant and may cause the eagle, and now that is so, after the revelation is disconnected, it is not permissible to do so. (12)

12. See: Bihar al-Anwar, vol. 31, p. 12

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fa&u=http://www.hawzah.net/fa/Magazine/View/4789/4809/40005/%D9%86%D9%85%D8%A7%D8%B2-%D8%AA%D8%B1%D8%A7%D9%88%DB%8C%D8%AD%D8%8C-%D8%B3%D9%86%D9%91%D8%AA-%DB%8C%D8%A7-%D8%A8%D8%AF%D8%B9%D8%AA&prev=search

by that logic, the prophet pbuh should have returned home the first night when the people joined him in jama'ah. or do you mean to say the prophet pbuh did something wrong by praying with the jama'ah for the first 3 nights?

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30 minutes ago, just a muslim said:

as for the thread you shared, all the links in that are to the same hadith i already said is not authentic, or are from books such as kanzul amaal(btw, it is not a hadith book), which are not reliable books, to say the least.

Salam Brother you dont accept shia sources & every Sunni sources that narrated you say it is not authentic   so first list authentic sources from your view.

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8 minutes ago, just a muslim said:

by that logic, the prophet pbuh should have returned home the first night when the people joined him in jama'ah. or do you mean to say the prophet pbuh did something wrong by praying with the jama'ah for the first 3 nights?

he did not perform jama'ah for first 3 nights he prayed alone but his companions followed him & their number increased each night so prophet on 4th night didn't perform Nawafel in mosque to not make it a Sunnah.

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2 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam Brother you dont accept shia sources & every Sunni sources that narrated you say it is not authentic   so first list authentic sources from your view.

salam brother,

I would advise you to stop wasting your time with this guy.. he is not here to question. his mind is closed. 

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5 hours ago, just a muslim said:

do you know the terms of the treaty of hudaibiya? the terms said that if someone from makkah accepted islam, and migrated to madinah, the prophet pbuh would send that person back and not allow him abode in makkah. but if a person in madinah were to accept the religion of polytheists, and migrated to makkah, the prophet pbuh would not stop him and makkans would accept him. does that seem logical to you? on face value, it seems absurd. only now do we see the wisdom of it after everything panned out as it did. but it would have been nearly impossible to see the wisdom behind it at that time. hence the multiple questions from both, the prophet and abu bakr. 

Eventually, the Prophet ordered Umar bin al-Khattab to go to Makkah to explain to the idolaters the purpose of the visit of the Muslims, to assure them that they (the Muslims) had no intention of fighting against anyone, and to give them a pledge that after performing the rites of Umra they would leave Makkah immediately and would return to Medina.

But Umar refused to go. He said that there was no one in Makkah to protect him. He suggested, however, that the Prophet ought to send Uthman bin Affan with his message to Makkah since the idolaters would not do him any harm.

Suhayl arrived in Hudaybiyya and opened negotiations with Muhammad, the Messenger of God. After long and wearisome discussions and debate they succeeded in hammering out a treaty, the more important terms of which were as follows:

1. Muhammad and his followers would return to Medina without performing Umra (the Lesser Pilgrimage) of the current year.

2. There would be peace between the Muslims and the Quraysh for a period of ten years from the date of the signing of the treaty.

3. If any Makkan accepts Islam and seeks sanctuary with the Muslims in Medina, they would extradite him to Makkah. But if a Muslim, fleeing from Medina, seeks sanctuary with the pagans in Makkah, they would not extradite him.

4. All the tribes of Arabia would be free to enter into treaty relations with any party – the Muslims or the Quraysh.

5. The Muslims would visit Makkah to perform the pilgrimage in the following year but they would not stay in the city for more than three days, and the only weapons which they would be allowed to bring with them, would be their swords in the scabbards.

This treaty is called the Treaty of Hudaybiyya. It is the most important political document in the history of Islam. The secretary selected to indite its terms was Ali ibn Abi Talib.

When the Treaty of Hudaybiyya was being indited, an incident took place which throws a revealing sidelight upon the character of the various protagonists engaged in drafting its terms.

Dictating to Ali, the Prophet said: “Write, In the name of Allah, the Most Merciful, the Most Beneficent.” Suhayl, the Makkan envoy, at once raised objection, and said, “Do not write this. Instead, write, ‘In Thy name O Allah.'“ The Prophet complied with this demand.

The Prophet next asked Ali to write: “This is a treaty of peace between Muhammad, the Messenger of God and the Quraysh...” Suhayl again objected, and said: “If we had acknowledged you a messenger of God, why would we be fighting against you? Therefore, do not write the words, ‘the Messenger of God,' and write only your own name and the name of your father.”

The Prophet was agreeable to comply with this demand also but Ali had already written the words, “Muhammad, the Messenger of God,” and he refused to delete them. He said to his master: “This high rank has been bestowed upon you by Allah Himself, and I shall never delete the words ‘Messenger of Allah' with my hand.” Thereupon, the Prophet took the pen in his own hand, and deleted the words which were offensive to the idolaters.

The Treaty of Hudaybiyya was signed on two copies, one for each party.

5 hours ago, just a muslim said:

1. where did you get that from?

2. he simply didnt understand the decision. and i explain why below.

Among the followers of the Prophet, however, the Treaty of Hudaybiyya was to produce some violent allergic reactions. Oddly, just like the pagans of Makkah, the “chauvinists” in the Muslim camp also equated it with “surrender.” They were led by Umar bin al-Khattab. He considered its terms “dishonorable,” and he was so much distressed by them that he turned to Abu Bakr for answers to his questions, and the following exchange took place between them:

Umar: Is he (Muhammad) or is he not the Messenger of God?

Abu Bakr: Yes. He is the Messenger of God.

Umar: Are we or are we not Muslims?

Abu Bakr: Yes, we are Muslims

Umar: If we are, then why are we surrendering to the pagans in a matter relating to our faith?

Abu Bakr: He is God's Messenger, and you must not meddle in this matter.

But Umar's defiance only escalated another notch after the admonition by Abu Bakr, and he went to see the Prophet himself. He later said: “I went into the presence of the Prophet, and asked him: ‘Are you not the Messenger of God?' He answered, ‘Yes, I am.' I again asked: ‘Are we Muslims not right, and are the polytheists not wrong?' He replied: ‘Yes, that is so.' I further asked: ‘Then why are we showing so much weakness to them? After all we have an army. Why are we making peace with them?' He said: ‘I am the Messenger of God, and I do whatever He commands me to do.'“

But it appears that Umar was not satisfied even with the answers of the Prophet himself to his questions. The terms of the Treaty of Hudaybiyya had generated grave doubts in his mind, so he said: “I repeatedly questioned the Prophet regarding the terms of this treaty, and I had never before talked with him in this manner.”

https://www.al-islam.org/restatement-history-islam-and-muslims-sayyid-ali-ashgar-razwy/treaty-hudaybiyya

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