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Abi talib

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Correction: We believe he wasn't kafir at first place. 

Hahaha.  Ok  This is just one example from fabricated hadith  Muslim (203) narrated from Anas (may Allaah be pleased with him) that a man said: “O Messenger of Allaah, where is my father?” H

Simple, because he was a Muslim and a best one of his time.

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30 minutes ago, Guest Sulman said:

There are only references in sahih ahadees that abi talib father of hazrat ali r.a. didnt accept islam why do shias write a.s. علیہ سلام with his name.

Plz advise source

There's even divergence among Sunnis about this issue. In short Sunnis are devided upon the faith of Abu Talib. Shias believe Abu Talib didn't died a Kaffir, while in Sunnism there isn't a consensus.

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9 hours ago, Guest Sulman said:

There are only references in sahih ahadees that abi talib father of hazrat ali r.a. didnt accept islam why do shias write a.s. علیہ سلام with his name.

Plz advise source

There is consensus among all ulemas both among Sunnis and Shias that Hazrat Abu Talib a.s read Nikah of Hazrat Muhammad pbuhhp and Hazrat Khadeja a.s. 

Hence, those hadith are fabricated which call Hazrat Abu Talib a.s as non-Muslim.

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On 10/11/2017 at 8:56 PM, Guest Sulman said:

There are only references in sahih ahadees that abi talib father of hazrat ali r.a. didnt accept islam why do shias write a.s. علیہ سلام with his name.

Plz advise source

Abu talib was a firm believer believing in almighty Allah swt and his  Prophet Muhammad saww:

The discussion and references about it can be seen at the link given below:

The following link may be useful if you understand Urdu

Wasalam

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15 hours ago, Guest Sulman said:

There are only references in sahih ahadees that abi talib father of hazrat ali r.a. didnt accept islam why do shias write a.s. علیہ سلام with his name.

Plz advise source

He was a Hanif(monotheist) on the religion of Ibrahim (AS).

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5 hours ago, Sindbad05 said:

There is consensus among all ulemas both among Sunnis and Shias that Hazrat Abu Talib a.s read Nikah of Hazrat Muhammad pbuhhp and Hazrat Khadeja a.s. 

Hence, those hadith are fabricated which call Hazrat Abu Talib a.s as non-Muslim.

if that is true, then that doesnt imply iman of abu talib. the nikah was done before nubuwwah of prophet pbuh and the first revelation. i.e. before islam. the nikah done was not according to the later introduced islamic rules but rather according to the arab custom. so, the one doing the nikah didnt necessarily have to be muslim. so, using this to deduce what you did is incorrect. you may believe it based on something else. but not this.

15 hours ago, SunniBrother said:

There's even divergence among Sunnis about this issue. In short Sunnis are devided upon the faith of Abu Talib. Shias believe Abu Talib didn't died a Kaffir, while in Sunnism there isn't a consensus.

stop spreading non sense about sunnis. there is consensus among sunnis that abu talib died a kaafir. there are many ahadith on it, specially the one where the prophet pbuh said that abu talib was in the lowest of hell, but he pulled him up so now only his feet are burning.

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10 hours ago, just a muslim said:

stop spreading non sense about sunnis. there is consensus among sunnis that abu talib died a kaafir. there are many ahadith on it, specially the one where the prophet pbuh said that abu talib was in the lowest of hell, but he pulled him up so now only his feet are burning.

You are just trying to spread the rumours and dust over the truth.

The view of majority of Sunni is that Abu Talib RA is a Muslim.

The following link provdes the evidence Ahle sunna website:

(3) A majority of scholars say that Hadhrat Abu Talib (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) was, indeed, a Muslim.

http://www.correctislamicfaith.com/abutalibrissaved.htm

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8 hours ago, skyweb1987 said:

You are just trying to spread the rumours and dust over the truth.

I have already quoted the link for the references and relevant discussion about the fact that Abu talib was a believer

with all due respect, i went through the post and the references in the first comment. it is mostly trying to discredit the ahadith which mention that abu talib died a kafir. the few places where any references to his iman are made, they are poor attempts at vague references just for the sake of referencing or the refer to ibn ishaq and other historical books, which are not hujjah upon anyone.

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1 minute ago, just a muslim said:

with all due respect, i went through the post and the references in the first comment. it is mostly trying to discredit the ahadith which mention that abu talib died a kafir. the few places where any references to his iman are made, they are poor attempts at vague references just for the sake of referencing or the refer to ibn ishaq and other historical books, which are not hujjah upon anyone.

you are neglecting my post with evidences from sunni website.

The view of majority of Sunni is that Abu Talib RA is a Muslim.

The following link provdes the evidence Ahle sunna website:

(3) A majority of scholars say that Hadhrat Abu Talib (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) was, indeed, a Muslim.

http://www.correctislamicfaith.com/abutalibrissaved.htm

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9 minutes ago, skyweb1987 said:

you are neglecting my post with evidences from sunni website.

The view of majority of Sunni is that Abu Talib RA is a Muslim.

The following link provdes the evidence Ahle sunna website:

(3) A majority of scholars say that Hadhrat Abu Talib (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) was, indeed, a Muslim.

http://www.correctislamicfaith.com/abutalibrissaved.htm

again, the website is doing the same thing. and if you look at how they jump from a hadith to the conclusion, it is just sad, to say the least.

it says majority of scholars. it doesnt say which scholars. sunnis or shias. and even if it did, scholarly view, without evidence, is not hujjah. so, lets turn to the evidence. there was none in the website you linked. 

bring me your strongest daleel that you think proves the iman of abu talib. i have no agenda or hard feelings against abu talib. it doesnt affect me in the least bit if he was muslim or kafir. so, if you prove to me, i have no issue accepting he was a muslim. but you need to prove it. like i said, bring me the strongest daleel/evidence that you have. and dont try to discredit the "evidence" of his kufr, forget the other side. prove your case first. mention the hadith which points to abu talibs iman, with reference. just one. i ask you just one. your strongest daleel. please dont bombard me with references as it will be no use. just point out one hadith.

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8 hours ago, just a muslim said:

again, the website is doing the same thing. and if you look at how they jump from a hadith to the conclusion, it is just sad, to say the least.

it says majority of scholars. it doesnt say which scholars. sunnis or shias. and even if it did, scholarly view, without evidence, is not hujjah. so, lets turn to the evidence. there was none in the website you linked. 

bring me your strongest daleel that you think proves the iman of abu talib. i have no agenda or hard feelings against abu talib. it doesnt affect me in the least bit if he was muslim or kafir. so, if you prove to me, i have no issue accepting he was a muslim. but you need to prove it. like i said, bring me the strongest daleel/evidence that you have. and dont try to discredit the "evidence" of his kufr, forget the other side. prove your case first.

We do have hadith both  from Shia and Sunni sources for the evidence of the fact that Abu Talib RA was a  muslim and believer. The evidences from sunni sources with verses of quran and hadith have been mentioned to you.

Some one accepts it or not he has own choice but every one is  answerable to Allah swt and the prophet saww. 

Waslam

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4 minutes ago, skyweb1987 said:

We do have hadith both  from Shia and Sunni sources for the evidence of the fact that Abu Talib RA was a  muslim and beleievr. 

Some one accepts it or not he has own choice but every on e si answerable to Allah swt and the prophet saww.

Waslam

you say we have such ahadith in sunni sources. could you be kind enough to mention one such source as i have been unable to find one? just one. im not asking much.

nothing has been mentioned to me so far. if it has, i have failed to see it. hence i ask you to mention just one such evidence, quran or hadith. thank you.

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2 minutes ago, just a muslim said:

you say we have such ahadith in sunni sources. could you be kind enough to mention one such source as i have been unable to find one? just one. im not asking much.

If you want to keep your eyes closed from the truth it is your own choice.

Wasalam

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Just now, skyweb1987 said:

If you want to keep your eyes closed from the truth it is your own choice.

Wasalam

all i am asking you is to just quote one hadith or quranic verse here, instead of giving me a link to a website which has a lot of stuff. just pick the daleel out of the narrative and mention it here, since i am sure you read it first and didnt just google, copy and paste it here.

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8 hours ago, just a muslim said:

all i am asking you is to just quote one hadith or quranic verse here, instead of giving me a link to a website which has a lot of stuff. just pick the daleel out of the narrative and mention it here, since i am sure you read it first and didnt just google, copy and paste it here.

I have already referred the text from sunni sources you may see from those links , please.if you like to know the truth.

wasalm

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8 hours ago, skyweb1987 said:

I have already the text from sunni sources you may see from there, you need to go through these,

please.if you like to know the truth.

wasalm

and i am telling you that i DID go through them and there was no evidence there. to prove that there is evidence and i am wrong, just mention ONE evidence below. 

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2 hours ago, just a muslim said:

if that is true, then that doesnt imply iman of abu talib. the nikah was done before nubuwwah of prophet pbuh and the first revelation. i.e. before islam. the nikah done was not according to the later introduced islamic rules but rather according to the arab custom. so, the one doing the nikah didnt necessarily have to be muslim. so, using this to deduce what you did is incorrect. you may believe it based on something else. but not this.

So for proving Abu Talib, you will also prove Prophet PBUHHP wrong by saying that Prophet ( PBUHHP ) believed in customs more than religion? ??? There is no logic in that.

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6 hours ago, Sindbad05 said:

@just a muslim you should read Hazrat Abu Talib's poetry that contains words like "Alhamdolilah" while Arab Pagans believed in "Lat and Manat".

you seem to be mistaken. EVERY pagan believed in Allah. difference is, they believed in secondary "gods" as well, such as laat and uzza and manat, whom they believed would get them closer to Allah and intercede on their behalf. the quran is a witness to this itself. 

there were no "atheist" so to speak back then. not for the sake of this discussion atleast.

6 hours ago, Sindbad05 said:

So for proving Abu Talib, you will also prove Prophet PBUHHP wrong by saying that Prophet ( PBUHHP ) believed in customs more than religion? ??? There is no logic in that.

auzubillah. there was no religion when the prophet pbuh got married to khadija ra. only the pagan religion. which had some islamic practices, and some pagan practices. 

i dont know if you believe that ibrahim as had his circumcision done in old age, but if you do, would you then say that he was wrong to not have it done at birth? ofc not. the shariah did not require him to do so. Allah only revealed it to him at a later age. 

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8 hours ago, just a muslim said:

you seem to be mistaken. EVERY pagan believed in Allah. difference is, they believed in secondary "gods" as well, such as laat and uzza and manat, whom they believed would get them closer to Allah and intercede on their behalf. the quran is a witness to this itself. 

there were no "atheist" so to speak back then. not for the sake of this discussion atleast.

auzubillah. there was no religion when the prophet pbuh got married to khadija ra. only the pagan religion. which had some islamic practices, and some pagan practices. 

i dont know if you believe that ibrahim as had his circumcision done in old age, but if you do, would you then say that he was wrong to not have it done at birth? ofc not. the shariah did not require him to do so. Allah only revealed it to him at a later age. 

Lolz, that's belief of the you that Prophets tread upon other ways before declaring their message openly. We believe that Prophets are never misguided and Prophet Ibrahim a.s and all prophets are circumcised by birth like they are by birth Prophets but the verse which was revealed about circumcision was revealed to make it a law among spiritual and physical descendants of Ibrahim a.s. Before the verse of Veil, the women of Ahlebayt a.s used to veil themselves and when verse was revealed it become mandatory for all woman. Please read that Syeda Khadija a.s met prophet while there was veil in between them and Syeda Zahra a.s never was without veil.

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19 hours ago, just a muslim said:

and i am telling you that i DID go through them and there was no evidence there. to prove that there is evidence and i am wrong, just mention ONE evidence below. 

I have mentioned the  view of your sunni scholars  and i am not a mediator between you and them and they accept Abu talib RA as a muslim.

For the sake of discussion i would like to see what evidence you have to consider the biggest supporter of the prophet saww and his religion ie Abu Talib RA as kafir  or idol worshiper before we go any further.

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On 10/13/2017 at 3:15 PM, Sindbad05 said:

Lolz, that's belief of the you that Prophets tread upon other ways before declaring their message openly. We believe that Prophets are never misguided and Prophet Ibrahim a.s and all prophets are circumcised by birth like they are by birth Prophets but the verse which was revealed about circumcision was revealed to make it a law among spiritual and physical descendants of Ibrahim a.s. Before the verse of Veil, the women of Ahlebayt a.s used to veil themselves and when verse was revealed it become mandatory for all woman. Please read that Syeda Khadija a.s met prophet while there was veil in between them and Syeda Zahra a.s never was without veil.

forget it then. i specifically said if you believe it. since you dont, you shouldve ignored that part. respond to the rest of my comment:

On 10/13/2017 at 6:38 AM, just a muslim said:

you seem to be mistaken. EVERY pagan believed in Allah. difference is, they believed in secondary "gods" as well, such as laat and uzza and manat, whom they believed would get them closer to Allah and intercede on their behalf. the quran is a witness to this itself. 

there were no "atheist" so to speak back then. not for the sake of this discussion atleast.

auzubillah. there was no religion when the prophet pbuh got married to khadija ra. only the pagan religion. which had some islamic practices, and some pagan practices.

 

as for this:

20 hours ago, skyweb1987 said:

I have mentioned the  view of your sunni scholars  and i am not a mediator between you and them and they accept Abu talib RA as a muslim.

For the sake of discussion i would like to see what evidence you have to consider the biggest supporter of the prophet saww and his religion ie Abu Talib RA as kafir  or idol worshiper before we go any further.

scholarly view has no value unless backed by quran or authentic hadith. and all the views that you mentioned were mere opinions. i asked for quran or hadith. you continuously fail to mention even a single one. nobody is asking you to be a mediator. just quote a single verse of the quran or an authentic hadith in your next comment. if you cant, please dont bother replying.

i dont have to bring any evidence. abu talib was born as a kafir. you make the claim he accepted islam. burden of proof is on you. unless you can bring the evidence that he accepted islam, he died a kafir as well. 

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On 10/13/2017 at 3:15 AM, Sindbad05 said:

you seem to be mistaken. EVERY pagan believed in Allah. difference is, they believed in secondary "gods" as well, such as laat and uzza and manat, whom they believed would get them closer to Allah and intercede on their behalf. the quran is a witness to this itself. 

there were no "atheist" so to speak back then. not for the sake of this discussion atleast.

Well, in the poetry of Hazrat Abu Talib and in his sermons there is no evidence that he ever took name of Laat and Manat as his gods. So, you are alleging a person who never in his life used words of lat and manat. I tell you an event which is documented in "14 Sitary" and you should read it. In the childhood of Prophet PBUHHP, the Mecca was struck with famine. so all Quraish gathered in the house of Abu Talib a.s to pray for rain....Hazrat Abu Talib a.s took Prophet PBUHHP and went to Kaaba and prayed with the praise of God and then interceded to Allah through the beautiful face of Prophet for rain from Allah AWJ and the rain started so much that Hazrat Abu Talib a.s drowned till his waist and then Hazrat Abu Talib lowered the hands of Prophet PBUHHP and the rain stopped. 

I am wondering at the Muslims who call a hypocrite like Abu Sufyan as Muslims but call a Momin as Abu Talib a.s who had believe in the Prophet since his childhood as unbeliever. Have you not read about incident of Bahira, the Christian priest from Sham who said that he is Prophet at the age of 13, while you still say that he rose to Prophethood at 40..... 

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24 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

Well, in the poetry of Hazrat Abu Talib and in his sermons there is no evidence that he ever took name of Laat and Manat as his gods. So, you are alleging a person who never in his life used words of lat and manat. I tell you an event which is documented in "14 Sitary" and you should read it. In the childhood of Prophet PBUHHP, the Mecca was struck with famine. so all Quraish gathered in the house of Abu Talib a.s to pray for rain....Hazrat Abu Talib a.s took Prophet PBUHHP and went to Kaaba and prayed with the praise of God and then interceded to Allah through the beautiful face of Prophet for rain from Allah AWJ and the rain started so much that Hazrat Abu Talib a.s drowned till his waist and then Hazrat Abu Talib lowered the hands of Prophet PBUHHP and the rain stopped. 

I am wondering at the Muslims who call a hypocrite like Abu Sufyan as Muslims but call a Momin as Abu Talib a.s who had believe in the Prophet since his childhood as unbeliever. Have you not read about incident of Bahira, the Christian priest from Sham who said that he is Prophet at the age of 13, while you still say that he rose to Prophethood at 40..... 

the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. just because you dont find abu talib calling to other than Allah doesnt mean he didnt. 

dont refer me to books. give me a hadith with the sanad and its number in the hadith book. not a history book.

abu sufyan accepted islam, at least outwardly. we cant judge a person's iman. as for abu talib, he didnt accept islam even outwardly so the default state is kufr already. and to add to it, we can judge his faith because we have ahadith that tell us he is in the fire, and not in heaven. you can argue about the authenticity of the hadith, but so can i, in favor of it. and conversely, i can challenge the entire shia hadith literature. but that isnt gonna get us anywhere.

point being, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. can you bring me a hadith that says abu talib accepted islam, ,or was a muslim, or is in the heaven?

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56 minutes ago, just a muslim said:

i dont have to bring any evidence. abu talib was born as a kafir. you make the claim he accepted islam. burden of proof is on you. unless you can bring the evidence that he accepted islam, he died a kafir as well. 

In the absence of any proof i simply reject your baseless and false claims that Abu talib was a kafir or idol worshiper.

The scholars of sunnis based on their verification of hadith and Quran lead them to conclude  that Abu Talib the largest supporter of the prophet saww and his region is a Muslim. 

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2 minutes ago, skyweb1987 said:

If you have no proof i simply reject your baseless false claims that Abu talib was a kafir or diol worshiper.

The scholars of sunnis based on their verification of hadith and Quran lead them to conclude  that Abu Talib the largest supporter of the prophet saww and his region is a Muslim. 

sigh. do you not understand logic? the proof is given by the one who makes a positive claim. i didnt make ANY claim. i never said abu talib was a kafir. YOU made a claim that he was a muslim. so i asked you for proof. which you have failed to bring. simple as that.

WHICH hadith and/or WHICH verse of the quran did they use for that? i am simply asking you to quote that. if you are truthful, quote the hadith/verse below.

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Just now, just a muslim said:

WHICH hadith and/or WHICH verse of the quran did they use for that? i am simply asking you to quote that. if you are truthful, quote the hadith/verse below.

I simply await the proof and evidence of your false and baseless claim that how are you making that Abu Talib was a kafir?

And in the absence of such evidence I have already rejected your false claims.

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5 minutes ago, just a muslim said:

sigh. do you not understand logic? the proof is given by the one who makes a positive claim. i didnt make ANY claim. i never said abu talib was a kafir.

We have proven our stance that Abu talib was a muslim not a kafir.

wasalam

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1 hour ago, just a muslim said:

i didnt make ANY claim. i never said abu talib was a kafir.

This claim has been made in your earliest post  as given below:

"stop spreading non sense about sunnis. there is consensus among sunnis that abu talib died a kaafir. there are many ahadith on it, specially the one where the prophet pbuh said that abu talib was in the lowest of hell, but he pulled him up so now only his feet are burning"

 

What do intend to get from such contradictory and false claims?

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1 minute ago, skyweb1987 said:

This claim has been made in your earliest post  as given below:

stop spreading non sense about sunnis. there is consensus among sunnis that abu talib died a kaafir. there are many ahadith on it, specially the one where the prophet pbuh said that abu talib was in the lowest of hell, but he pulled him up so now only his feet are burning.

 

What do intend to get from such contradictory and false claims?

i said there is consensus among sunnis. i never said i am one. i only said that i was a "sunni" so to speak, in my first introductory post on this website. there was a reason that i put the sunni in apostrophe. 

so, lets get back to point. i didnt make any claim. you did. 

13 minutes ago, just a muslim said:

WHICH hadith and/or WHICH verse of the quran did they use for that? i am simply asking you to quote that. if you are truthful, quote the hadith/verse below.

answer this.

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47 minutes ago, just a muslim said:

answer this.

I do not like to respond any further to a proven LIAR who has no evidence of his claims, i have already mentioned mines from  sunni sources /website.

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