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34 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

Though I've proven (in my personal perspective my long essay of a post) that Muhammad SAW did not err in delivering the message, but may have very well have subjectively  "err'd" in other matters (like when Allah indicates directly that the prophet may be disobeyed by women if they determine his command was not good) (60:12)

Huh, I am reading the ayah you mentioned and I don't understand how you could come to that conclusion.

Quote

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا إِذَا جَاءَكُمُ الْمُؤْمِنَاتُ مُهَاجِرَاتٍ فَامْتَحِنُوهُنَّ ۖ اللَّهُ أَعْلَمُ بِإِيمَانِهِنَّ ۖ فَإِنْ عَلِمْتُمُوهُنَّ مُؤْمِنَاتٍ فَلَا تَرْجِعُوهُنَّ إِلَى الْكُفَّارِ ۖ لَا هُنَّ حِلٌّ لَّهُمْ وَلَا هُمْ يَحِلُّونَ لَهُنَّ ۖ وَآتُوهُم مَّا أَنفَقُوا ۚ وَلَا جُنَاحَ عَلَيْكُمْ أَن تَنكِحُوهُنَّ إِذَا آتَيْتُمُوهُنَّ أُجُورَهُنَّ ۚ وَلَا تُمْسِكُوا بِعِصَمِ الْكَوَافِرِ وَاسْأَلُوا مَا أَنفَقْتُمْ وَلْيَسْأَلُوا مَا أَنفَقُوا ۚ ذَٰلِكُمْ حُكْمُ اللَّهِ ۖ يَحْكُمُ بَيْنَكُمْ ۚ وَاللَّهُ عَلِيمٌ حَكِيمٌ - 60:10

O you who have believed, when the believing women come to you as emigrants, examine them. Allah is most knowing as to their faith. And if you know them to be believers, then do not return them to the disbelievers; they are not lawful [wives] for them, nor are they lawful [husbands] for them. But give the disbelievers what they have spent. And there is no blame upon you if you marry them when you have given them their due compensation. And hold not to marriage bonds with disbelieving women, but ask for what you have spent and let them ask for what they have spent. That is the judgement of Allah ; He judges between you. And Allah is Knowing and Wise.

وَإِن فَاتَكُمْ شَيْءٌ مِّنْ أَزْوَاجِكُمْ إِلَى الْكُفَّارِ فَعَاقَبْتُمْ فَآتُوا الَّذِينَ ذَهَبَتْ أَزْوَاجُهُم مِّثْلَ مَا أَنفَقُوا ۚ وَاتَّقُوا اللَّهَ الَّذِي أَنتُم بِهِ مُؤْمِنُونَ - 60:11

And if you have lost any of your wives to the disbelievers and you subsequently obtain [something], then give those whose wives have gone the equivalent of what they had spent. And fear Allah, in whom you are believers.

يَا أَيُّهَا النَّبِيُّ إِذَا جَاءَكَ الْمُؤْمِنَاتُ يُبَايِعْنَكَ عَلَىٰ أَن لَّا يُشْرِكْنَ بِاللَّهِ شَيْئًا وَلَا يَسْرِقْنَ وَلَا يَزْنِينَ وَلَا يَقْتُلْنَ أَوْلَادَهُنَّ وَلَا يَأْتِينَ بِبُهْتَانٍ يَفْتَرِينَهُ بَيْنَ أَيْدِيهِنَّ وَأَرْجُلِهِنَّ وَلَا يَعْصِينَكَ فِي مَعْرُوفٍ ۙ فَبَايِعْهُنَّ وَاسْتَغْفِرْ لَهُنَّ اللَّهَ ۖ إِنَّ اللَّهَ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ - 60:12

O Prophet, when the believing women come to you pledging to you that they will not associate anything with Allah, nor will they steal, nor will they commit unlawful sexual intercourse, nor will they kill their children, nor will they bring forth a slander they have invented between their arms and legs, nor will they disobey you in what is right - then accept their pledge and ask forgiveness for them of Allah . Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

I don't see where you get that Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى implied that Muhammad (saws) may be disobeyed by women because his command was not good enough unless you are referring to this part: "nor will they disobey you in what is right..." This is one of those verses that must be read in full context with the preceding verses and with the historical records in mind.

If you don't, you'll have no idea what the ayah is talking about and either have the wrong impression of Muhammad (saws) or misinterpret the verse to mean something far different from the original, intended meaning.

One of the pitfalls of adopting a Quran only approach...

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6 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

--How did Allah according to Quran "give words"/communicate to Muhammad?

One thing that we know, from Qu'ran, is that Allah TALKED with Musa AS. --

"Then he drew near, then he bowed. So he was the measure of two bows or closer still. And He revealed to His servant what He revealed" (53:8-10)

You can see brother, even with such closeness, the address of Allah to His servant is done via revelation.

"How did Allah give words/communicate to Prophet?"

With Him everything is in the form of Noor, even the words of Allah.

"You did not know what the Book was, nor (what) the faith (was), but We made it a light (walakin ja'alnaho nooran), guiding thereby whom We please of Our servants" (42:52)

Your question is demanding to discuss the "Haqiqat-e-Muhammadiyah". And you need to see the ahadith of Prophet Muhammad and Ahlul Bayt (peace & blessings of Allah be upon them) for finding the answer.

"Awwalo ma khalaq Allaho noori" (Allah has created my noor in the first place). Now keep this hadith in mind and read the following words of Allah:

"The Beneficient Allah, Taught the Quran, He created men" (55:1-3) As per the arrangement of verses, teaching of Quran is done prior to the creation of men.
"You did not know what the Book was, nor (what) the faith (was), but We made it a light" (42:52)

The Book and the Emaan reached to Prophet in the form of light.
 

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1 hour ago, wmehar2 said:

It's difficult, and dang near impossible to "follow" and prove those hadiths are true (well, really impossible).

Yeah, especially during these modern times. Some are just beyond absurd.

 

1 hour ago, wmehar2 said:

And then you have 9:50 above, do you think its a good idea to follow any hadiths?  Maybe read them to gain historical understanding but follow them?

No, I don't think it is a good idea in certain situations. Again, I don't see how I could follow them in my time and environment. I almost always read it for historical understanding.

1 hour ago, wmehar2 said:

Just because a hadith doesn't contradict the Quran doesnt mean its not fabricated.  People intending to twist and corrupt need merit or truths to spin a lie.  One can use something true in the quran like say Umar,   who says I believe in this verse " [verse]" and a good follower of it, but you don't know if he did, for example.

^That's why we have people who devote to studying hadith sciences and rijal, no?

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7 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

So what about 4:59???

 O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end.

--Will you all read this the same way as you have been??  " O you who believe! refers to ALL Muslims, including MUHAMMAD SAW.  He is part of the set of people whom Allah is referring to here.  There is no contradiction or redundancy.  NOTICE THERE IS NO "OBEY"  (3teyaa) in front of "...and those in authority" How come obey is not in front "and those in authority"  Is it because authority themselves must obey Allah and the messenger (people tell me yes)?  Seems to make sense for now.. , let's follow through and see how it goes.NOTE: Many believe 4:59 requires two  instances of obedience-s...

There is no two separate obedience's, 8:20 proves it!--

8:20

O you who believe! obey Allah and His Messenger and do not turn back from Him while you hear.

--You don't see Obey Allah and Obey his Messenger here.   Is some Imam or Dictator, President, Shaykh my authority?   Police officers, president, I gotta obey them? 

Wow.  Look at 8:20,  Obey Allah and his Messenger but no Arabic word 3teyu(obey) and you have a  singular pronoun in 8:20 for "do not turn your back from Him..".  Who should I not turn away from, the Messenger or Allah, there's only one you can't turn away from.   So it must be Allah, because 3teyu (obey) is in front of Allah.. So when someone told me that obey is not in front of authority because they have to obey Allah,  well that's wrong.  Allah is specific, the Qur'an explains itself if you READ.  I just obey Allah and the obey Messenger in 4:59. 

Allah never says obey the Prophet... why?  As of now I only know of four ways Allah references Muhammad in Qu'ran..  Servant, Muhammad, Nabi/prophet, or Rasool messenger, everytime Allah refers to Muhammad with those different ways theres something different about his life he's pointing to.  If I talk to someone in their capacity as their role @Gaius I. Caesar, or people, there with context.  A son, a father, a wife, daughter.  Allah does this with Muhammad in the Qu'ran. 

When Allah talks about Prophet, read context and you see Prophet has nothing to do with anyone today.   For instance, when Allah says, " enter not the house of the Prophet until you have permission"  Don't marry wives of the PROPHET.

 

let us look at the verse again.

[Shakir 4:59] O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end.

We have the following:
Verb 1: Obey
Object 1: Allah
Verb 2: Obey
Object 2: Rasul and ulil amri from among you

obviously, Rasul and Ulil Amri are excluded from "O you who believe". were u to include the Prophet, r u saying, the Prophet has to obey ulil amri? this is simply outrageous!

another point: ulil amri cannot be any unjust/sinning imam/caliph/president/prime minister etc, etc.

they can only refer to the infallible imams a.s., otherwise we will be assuming that Allah is ordering the Muslim to obey orders that may contradict the teachings of Islam, which is impossible.

hence, obeying ulil amri is obeying the Prophet and obeying the Prophet is obeying Allah.

as to the second part of the verse, i believe, quarreling among ourselves is not allowed, what more with ulil amri! here's the proof (prohibition to quarrel among ourselves).

[Shakir 8:46] And obey Allah and His Messenger and do not quarrel for then you will be weak in hearts and your power will depart, and be patient; surely Allah is with the patient.

honestly, everyone using his own interpretation is a recipe for division in religion.

i believe "...but none knows its interpretation except Allah and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge." (Quran 3:7). otherwise it just doesn't seem to add up to me. and these deeply rooted in knowledge are the same ulil amri, after the Prophet.

this kind of recitation can also be found in tafsir ibn kathir where it was reported that ibn abbas claimed he is one of those firmly rooted in knowledge.

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salam all. sorry for off-topic.

i'm just a layman. but i do find the statement below, irrefutable. so with regards to traditions or news (past and present), it gives me a peace of mind.

Those that tell you traditions will be of four types – there won’t be a fifth one.

One will be a hypocrite who will portray Iman and is a Muslim just to show. He does not think it is bad, or a sin, to relate false things to the Holy Prophet (S.A.W) intentionally. If Muslims knew he was a liar, a hypocrite, then they would not accept what he said was true. But they said he is a companion of the Holy Prophet (S.A.W), they have seen him, heard tradition from him, he does not lie and does not think it lawful to relate a lie to the Holy Prophet (S.A.W). Whereas the information that Allah has given about hypocrites, He has given and He has described his attributes that he has. Allah Tabarak Wata'Ala has said: And when you see them, their persons will please you, and if

they speak, you will listen to their speech; (Surah Munafiqun:4).

These people in the end stayed alive and became nearer to the imams who deviated them and, near to those who called them towards Hell through deceit, lie, hypocrisy, and accusation. So they made them leaders and let them ride on the backs of people and in this world, through them, fed themselves. And people are with Kings except those whom Allah saves. So this is one of the four types.

There is another who heard something from the Holy Prophet (S.A.W) but he did not remember exactly what he heard and did not lie intentionally and he has what he heard from the Holy Prophet (S.A.W) and he acts on it, and says that he heard it from the Holy Prophet (S.A.W). If Muslims knew that he had any doubt, then they would not accept it. If he himself knew he was doubtful then he would leave it.

The third type is a person who heard something from the Holy Prophet (S.A.W) what he ordered and then stopped it, but the person does not know, or he heard something that was stopped and after that the Holy Prophet (S.A.W) order to do it, but the person does not know it. This person

remembered Mansukh (what order has been withdrawn) and did not remember Nasikh (what is current). If he knew it was Mansukh he would leave it. If Muslims knew the order was Mansukh when they heard, they would all leave it.

The fourth is a person who did not associate any lie to Allah or His Prophet because he bore enmity towards lie, and feared Allah, respected and valued the Holy Prophet (S.A.W) and had no doubt. He remembered it the way he heard it. He did not add or leave anything out, remembered Nasikh and

Mansukh, acted on Nasikh and left Mansukh.

 

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12 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

@Gaius I. Caesar @S.M.H.A. @Salsabeel @Faruk @ServantOfTheOne @Sindbad05 @shiaman14 is welcome to participate too.

@skyweb1987 I think I recognize the crux of the issue, and that is understanding "Obeying Allah and the Messenger"  I thank you all, disagreements/agreements aside.  This has helped me immensely this discussion. I beg patience from you all to finish reading this post with an open mind until the end as I tried as hard as I could to address potential concerns with my ideas.

I'll begin with a question, how does one Obey Allah, does one speak to him personally?  If I'm not mistaken, we do agree that obeying Allah is to obey the message brought by the Messenger.

42:51-52

And it is not for any human being that Allah should speak to him except by revelation or from behind a partition or that He sends a messenger to reveal, by His permission, what He wills. Indeed, He is Most High and Wise.

*Yukalima, is typically understood to mean communicate/speak, though in it's actual form, it means "give word" This is fundamentally different from actual talking/saying things with a voice. Note this distinction**  Also note the ORDER these are in. 

---From the above, we understand there are 3 ways for Allah to converse with humans.  Revelation, from behind a veil/partition, or sends a messenger to reveal.---------

And thus We have revealed to you an inspiration of Our command. You did not know what is the Book or [what is] faith, but We have made it a light by which We guide whom We will of Our servants. And indeed, [O Muhammad], you guide to a straight path -

--How did Allah according to Quran "give words"/communicate to Muhammad?

One thing that we know, from Qu'ran, is that Allah TALKED with Musa AS. --

4:163-164

We have revealed to thee as We revealed to Noah, and the Prophets after him, and We revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, Jesus and Job, Jonah and Aaron and Solomon, and We gave to David Psalms,

And (We sent) messengers We have mentioned to you before and messengers we have not mentioned to you; and to Musa, Allah addressed His Word, speaking (to him):

--Allah communicated to Musa AS by speaking directly to him?  Let's see.--

20:11-12, 17-18

So when he came to it, a voice was uttered: O Musa:

Surely I am your Lord, therefore put off your shoes; surely you are in the sacred valley, Tuwa,

-Allah is speaking in first person. No angel is saying this to Musa.--

And what is this in your right hand, O Musa?

He said: This is my staff: I recline on it and I beat the leaves with it to make them fall upon my sheep, and I have other uses for it.

--Allah, is literally talking with Musa AS.  In the first person.  As you may be familiar with the passages, Musa AS is out in the wilderness, doing whatever it is he was doing.  And Allah is having a Dialogue/conversation with Allah.  Look at that! No one in between them, Allah and Musa AS. ** This is PRIOR to Musa AS receiving Revelation ***

6:91

And they do not assign to Allah the attributes due to Him when they say: Allah has not revealed anything to a mortal. Say: Who revealed the Book which Musa brought, a light and a guidance to men, which you make into scattered writings which you show while you conceal much? And you were taught what you did not know, (neither) you nor your fathers. Say: Allah then leave them sporting in their vain discourses.

--Check 7:17 too,  Here Allah uses the word "wa7ee" for reveal/ed.  This tells us clearly, when Allah wants to send the Message, he "REVEALS", if he wants to have a conversation instead, He then has direct speech/talk/dialogue with voice. Which has naught to do with Revelation (which is why we don't see this conversation in the Torah one may argue).  Musa AS has both received direct dialogue and revelation from Allah.  This constitutes the 2nd method of communication from Allah  back in 42:51, which is Allah may communicate from behind a veil. 

So back to the question, How did revelation/Quran come to Muhammad SAW?  Was he ever in dialogue with Allah according to Qu'ran?

Here we discover that angels are Messengers too!--

 

22:75

Allah chooses messengers from among the angels and from among the men; surely Allah is Hearing, Seeing.

16:2

He sends down the angels with the inspiration by His commandment on whom He pleases of His servants, saying: Give the warning that there is no god but Me, therefore be careful (of your duty) to Me.

--QUESTION,  Should these angels who are sent down with revelation, be obeyed?  Better yet,  Would this apply when Allah says "OBEY Allah and OBEY THE MESSENGER?"--

16:101-102

And when We exchange a verse in the place of another verse and God knows very well what He is sending down -- they say, 'Thou art a mere forger!' Nay, but the most of them have no knowledge.

Say: 'The Holy Spirit sent it down from thy Lord in truth, and to confirm those who believe, and to be a guidance and good tidings to those who surrender.'

--Should This Holy Spirit be Obeyed?? Would that mean Obeying Allah??--

26:192-194

And most surely this is a revelation from the Lord of the worlds.

The Faithful Spirit has descended with it,

Upon your heart that you may be of the warners

--Should the faithful Spirit be obeyed?? and does this mean Obeying Allah alone?  Perhaps its Jabril (It is) This spirit is now a "Al Alameen, Spirit"  A trustworthy or faithful spirit.  Now it seems to me, it's all one obedience.--

Quran 2:92

Say: Whoever is the enemy of Jibreel-- for surely he revealed it to your heart by Allah's command, verifying that which is before it and guidance and good news for the believers.

---Jabril revealed it but by Allah's command; he did not act independently --- WHO should be obeyed?--

Quran 89:19-21

Most surely it is the Word of an honored messenger, (You're hearing SPEECH  check Arabic word used here, Gods words , given to Jabril and speaking to Muhammad SAW)

who is honored in the presence of the Lord of the Throne,

One (to be) obeyed, and faithful in trust.

4:64

And We did not send any messenger but that he should be obeyed by Allah's permission; and had they, when they were unjust to themselves, come to you and asked forgiveness of Allah and the Messenger had (also) asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah Oft-returning (to mercy), Merciful.

4:80

Whoever obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys Allah, and whoever turns back, so We have not sent you as a keeper over them.

--JABRIL WAS A MESSENGER,  MUHAMMAD SAW OBEYED HIM.  These entities are messengers/transmitters, like typing in an online messenger, or email.  Send it, then forward it, obey and transmit.  No Messenger is sent except they obeyed Allah. We KNOW Jibril revealed to Muhammad the message/book. 

It seems hard to see it this way because we were taught hadith before Quran, all of us were.  Shaykhs, Marjas, They don't see it this way.  The logic and true referential integrity of the Qur'an is ignored when someone with poor understanding or substituted understanding from Hadith.

We haven't used our minds, blindly following people man. When other people think, like how I hope you're all thinking like I am here seriously, which you can actually use YOUR will and YOUR understanding rather than others doing it for us. 

Q.E.D. @JustAMuslim--

So what about 4:59???

 O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end.

--Will you all read this the same way as you have been??  " O you who believe! refers to ALL Muslims, including MUHAMMAD SAW.  He is part of the set of people whom Allah is referring to here.  There is no contradiction or redundancy.  NOTICE THERE IS NO "OBEY"  (3teyaa) in front of "...and those in authority" How come obey is not in front "and those in authority"  Is it because authority themselves must obey Allah and the messenger (people tell me yes)?  Seems to make sense for now.. , let's follow through and see how it goes.NOTE: Many believe 4:59 requires two  instances of obedience-s...

There is no two separate obedience's, 8:20 proves it!--

8:20

O you who believe! obey Allah and His Messenger and do not turn back from Him while you hear.

--You don't see Obey Allah and Obey his Messenger here.   Is some Imam or Dictator, President, Shaykh my authority?   Police officers, president, I gotta obey them? 

Wow.  Look at 8:20,  Obey Allah and his Messenger but no Arabic word 3teyu(obey) and you have a  singular pronoun in 8:20 for "do not turn your back from Him..".  Who should I not turn away from, the Messenger or Allah, there's only one you can't turn away from.   So it must be Allah, because 3teyu (obey) is in front of Allah.. So when someone told me that obey is not in front of authority because they have to obey Allah,  well that's wrong.  Allah is specific, the Qur'an explains itself if you READ.  I just obey Allah and the obey Messenger in 4:59. 

Allah never says obey the Prophet... why?  As of now I only know of four ways Allah references Muhammad in Qu'ran..  Servant, Muhammad, Nabi/prophet, or Rasool messenger, everytime Allah refers to Muhammad with those different ways theres something different about his life he's pointing to.  If I talk to someone in their capacity as their role @Gaius I. Caesar, or people, there with context.  A son, a father, a wife, daughter.  Allah does this with Muhammad in the Qu'ran. 

When Allah talks about Prophet, read context and you see Prophet has nothing to do with anyone today.   For instance, when Allah says, " enter not the house of the Prophet until you have permission"  Don't marry wives of the PROPHET.

In Quran 80:1-15, @S.M.H.A., it cannot be Umar or anyone else but Muhammad this is about.   Allah chided Muhammad who wanted to talk to someone else.  It's contradictory to say it was about Umar because why would Allah assume Umar had knowledge to impart to the blind man (looking at you Sunnis who think Umar as a great man)?  Also Jibril as saying this message from Allah to Muhammad.  You may not have to believe it's Muhammad or not being referred to in this passage, but no matter how you put it, any one else would make the Quran contradictory as no other man can deliver knowledge/message to a blind man or rich man that is arrogant as referenced in Chapter 80.  Because Allah says did you know the man could purify himself?  No one but Muhammad (not Umar) could help the blind man with this.

Because obedience to the Prophet is CONDITIONAL see proof below.--

Quran 60:12:

O Prophet! when believing women come to you giving you a pledge that they will not associate aught with Allah, and will not steal, and will not commit fornication, and will not kill their children, and will not bring a calumny which they have forged of themselves, and will not disobey you in what is good, accept their pledge, and ask forgiveness for them from Allah; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

--Why does Allah have to say that?  "..not disobey in what is good"   Well certainly because Muhammad could make a MISTAKE, a woman has a right to determine for herself what is good  and then act.  Maybe that is the reason Muhammad turned heads of men away from women, instead of put a hijab over a woman in all these Hadiths, if they're even right.  If Muhammad gives command to a woman/women and women determine it is not good, don't need to be interested in obeying.

If its GOOD they won't disobey Muhammad.  This is DIFFERENT FROM BEING THE MESSENGER.   THAT's a condition!!!!!

Here are more examples of the Prophet Muhammad SAW, being CHIDED by Allah:--

58:1-3

Allah indeed knows the plea of her who pleads with you about her husband and complains to Allah, and Allah knows the contentions of both of you; surely Allah is Hearing, Seeing.

(As for) those of you who put away their wives by likening their backs to the backs of their mothers, they are not their mothers; their mothers are no others than those who gave them birth; and most surely they utter a hateful word and a falsehood and most surely Allah is Pardoning, Forgiving.

And (as for) those who put away their wives by likening their backs to the backs of their mothers then would recall what they said, they should free a captive before they touch each other; to that you are admonished (to conform); and Allah is Aware of what you do.

--Allah Sides with the woman! When she pleaded with Muhammad.--

66:1

O Prophet! why do you forbid (yourself) that which Allah has made lawful for you; you seek to please your wives; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

--Allah is upset here,  What if someone saw Muhammad forbidding it and started doing it themselves?? Then Muhammad would be setting a bad example!.--

9:43

Allah pardon you! Why did you give them leave until those who spoke the truth had become manifest to you and you had known the liars?

--Muhammad did something wrong, and Allah pardoned him for that.--

9:50

Say: If I err, I err only against my own soul, and if I follow a right direction, it is because of what my Lord reveals to me; surely He is Hearing, Nigh.

--In the SAME verse, if Muhammad errs, its because of himself, his individual person.  When he does something right, it's because of Allah,  THIS IS PROOF.. CLEAR PROOF...   Allah is what causes Muhammad to do right, not Muhammad.  He is but a man as said in Quran repetitively.  I bloody KNEW IT.  If Muhammad said something from Allah it can't be wrong, but if it's not from Allah, it CAN be wrong.

Should this Quran be a book of NO contradiction then  No HADITH that had NOTHING to do with Allah should hold ANY water in matters of deen.

The messengers duty:

Quran 2:212

Not upon you, [O Muhammad], is [responsibility for] their guidance, but Allah guides whom He wills. And whatever good you [believers] spend is for yourselves, and you do not spend except seeking the countenance of Allah. And whatever you spend of good - it will be fully repaid to you, and you will not be wronged.

88:21-22

So remind, [O Muhammad]; you are only a reminder.

You are not over them a controller.

5:99

Nothing is (incumbent) on the Messenger but to deliver (the message), and Allah knows what you do openly and what you hide. (Of course the messenger here is to Muhammad, because why would Allah need to explain this to an Angel who just perfectly obeys and thinks of nothing more?)

24:54

Say: Obey Allah and obey the messenger. But if ye turn away, then (it is) for him (to do) only that wherewith he hath been charged, and for you (to do) only that wherewith ye have been charged. If ye obey him, ye will go aright. But the messenger hath no other charge than to convey (the message) plainly.

--We trick ourselves to thinking there's more behind the word plainly.  But no one asks what is the duty of the one who turns away if they don't obey?  After proving everything up until now,  showing Muhammad can make a mistake or be disobeyed /obeyed conditionally as a PROPHET,   how would Muhammad be able to explain a message delivered to him by Jibril plainly if he himself has to interpret and understand it?  Would he not have to ask Jibril for clarification, or does he just deliver the message of Allah as it is.  Because the Qur'an itself is plain enough. Don't add or take anything from it.--

10:15

And when Our clear revelations are recited unto them, they who look not for the meeting with Us say: Bring a Lecture other than this, or change it. Say (O Muhammad): It is not for me to change it of my accord. I only follow that which is inspired in me. Lo! if I disobey my Lord I fear the retribution of an awful Day.

--They are already CLEAR!!!  Allah says bring a Quran like this one,  I am the BEST Hadith.    (Have I gotten through to anyone?)  Muhammad says its not for him to change it.  Dare we concoct contradictions to explain that we need Hadith because Quran is not CLEAR.  ??

Reading this Quran plainly as I have been, eliminating Hadith I grew up with in my mind, I see this.  A blank clear state.--

3:143

Muhammad is naught but a Messenger; Messengers have passed away before him. Why, if he should die or is slain, will you turn about on your heels? If any man should turn about on his heels, he will not harm God in any way; and God will recompense the thankful.

--Muhammad's name is mentioned 4 times in the Qu'ran, we need to pay special attention here because this is one of those few four times, so lets get it right.  This is a special verse. He's NOTHING, but a messenger.  They have passed away before him, if he dies, will you turn back on your heels. LOOK at that reasoning, that LOGIC.  He's a messenger, he gives you the message.  If he walks away, dies, gets killed, you all gonna run away.? You GOT the message.  Muslims, Sunnis, Sufis, Shias, we all go crazy for Imams who are less than the messenger who are more expendable.  So why do we argue Sunnis and Shias whose gonna be the Madhi?    Because we HAVE the message.--

MUHAMMAD FOLLOWED ONLY QURAN, NOT HIS PERSONAL EXPERTISE OR KNOWLEDGE,  Do we follow Muhammad or the Leader?:

Quran 10:35-36

Say: Is there any of your associates who guides to the truth? Say: Allah guides to the truth. Is He then Who guides to the truth more worthy to be followed, or he who himself does not go aright unless he is guided? What then is the matter with you; how do you judge?

And most of them do not follow (anything) but conjecture; surely conjecture will not avail aught against the truth; surely Allah is cognizant of what they do.

-- Muhammad belongs to which category in the above verse?    Muhammad is CERTAINLY "He whom himself does not go aright unless he is guided"

Because we KNOW Muhammad found NOT the way until he was guided BECAUSE LOOK AT BELOW:--

Quran 93:6-8

Did He not find you an orphan and give you shelter?

And find you lost (that is, unrecognized by men) and guide (them to you)?

And find you in want and make you to be free from want?

Quran 28:47-49

 And were it not that there should befall them a disaster for what their hands have sent before, then they should say: Our Lord! why didst Thou not send to us a messenger so that we should have followed Thy communications and been of the believers!

But (now) when the truth has come to them from Us, they say: Why is he not given the like of what was given to Musa? What! did they not disbelieve in what Musa was given before? They say: Two magicians backing up each other; and they say: Surely we are unbelievers in all.

Say: Then bring some (other) book from Allah which is a better guide than both of them, (that) I may follow it, if you are truthful.

28:56-57

Surely you cannot guide whom you love, but Allah guides whom He pleases, and He knows best the followers of the right way.

And they say: If we follow the guidance with you, we shall be carried off from our country. What! have We not settled them in

safe, sacred territory to which fruits of every kind shall be drawn?-- a sustenance from Us; but most of them do not know.

7:193

And if you invite them to guidance, they will not follow you; it is the same to you whether you invite them or you are silent.

And if you invite them to guidance, they do not hear; and you see them looking towards you, yet they do not see.

--guidance , Arabic word (al Huda).   Make no mistake, Quran only, al Huda is the Quran.  No Hadith is mentioned here and can't be given the context of the Quran here.   Because I've proven above that Guidance comes ONLY from Allah, al Huda is from Allah only in the aforementioned verses 10:35-36.--

Quran 18:56-57

We only send the messengers to give Glad Tidings and to give warnings: But the unbelievers dispute with vain argument, in order therewith to weaken the truth, and they treat My Signs as a jest, as also the fact that they are warned!

And who is more unjust than he who is reminded of the communications of his Lord, then he turns away from them and forgets what his two hands have sent before? Surely We have placed veils over their hearts lest they should understand it and a heaviness in their ears; and if you call them to the guidance, they will not ever follow the right course in that case.

And Finally:

Quran 25:30

And the Messenger cried out: O my Lord! surely my people have treated this Quran as a forsaken thing.

Surah 3: Verse 7

allegorical / Clear/Decisive/Mother of the Book "Concepts"/Verses. 

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235053220-question-to-sunnis-kerbela/?page=5&tab=comments#comment-3089496

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235051768-perspective-of-risala-knowledge-hadith-validation/?page=5&tab=comments#comment-3077259

 

 

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6 hours ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

Huh, I am reading the ayah you mentioned and I don't understand how you could come to that conclusion.

I don't see where you get that Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى implied that Muhammad (saws) may be disobeyed by women because his command was not good enough unless you are referring to this part: "nor will they disobey you in what is right..." This is one of those verses that must be read in full context with the preceding verses and with the historical records in mind.

If you don't, you'll have no idea what the ayah is talking about and either have the wrong impression of Muhammad (saws) or misinterpret the verse to mean something far different from the original, intended meaning.

One of the pitfalls of adopting a Quran only approach...

60:12 and 9:50,

That is how a woman can disobey if she determines what is not good.  I have read the following verses preceding, and did not think I missed anything.

Why mention "what in what is good "? If you can just say disobey like he has consistently when He is NOT referring to prophet as the messenger but as Prophet.

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6 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

"Then he drew near, then he bowed. So he was the measure of two bows or closer still. And He revealed to His servant what He revealed" (53:8-10)

You can see brother, even with such closeness, the address of Allah to His servant is done via revelation.

"How did Allah give words/communicate to Prophet?"

With Him everything is in the form of Noor, even the words of Allah.

"You did not know what the Book was, nor (what) the faith (was), but We made it a light (walakin ja'alnaho nooran), guiding thereby whom We please of Our servants" (42:52)

Your question is demanding to discuss the "Haqiqat-e-Muhammadiyah". And you need to see the ahadith of Prophet Muhammad and Ahlul Bayt (peace & blessings of Allah be upon them) for finding the answer.

"Awwalo ma khalaq Allaho noori" (Allah has created my noor in the first place). Now keep this hadith in mind and read the following words of Allah:

"The Beneficient Allah, Taught the Quran, He created men" (55:1-3) As per the arrangement of verses, teaching of Quran is done prior to the creation of men.
"You did not know what the Book was, nor (what) the faith (was), but We made it a light" (42:52)

The Book and the Emaan reached to Prophet in the form of light.
 

in my above post, I have proven Muhammad SAW did not know the book nor was guided to it before it's revelation. 

Allah said there are 3 communication methods.

aforementioned verse, Quran says, Say Muhammad it was revealed in me that there was no God but God.  I have shown Allah doesnt give a book unless it was revealed.   and Of course we know quran  was  reevealed to Muhammad by Jibril, contradiction is introduced from what point you're making.

Allah made certain/clear we only receive revelation from a messenger/revelation.

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3 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

in my above post, I have proven Muhammad SAW did not know the book nor was guided to it before it's revelation. 

 

Quote:

“ 8. The Qur’an claims several stages of its existence

 

(1) A pre-revealed existence with God in the Lawhe Mahfuz (Ch. LXXXV: v 22) (protected tablet) and in the Kitab-e-Maknun Ch. LVI: vs 77-79) (hidden book).

 

“Verily it is an honoured Qur’an, In a Book hidden, Toucheth it not save the purified ones.”

(Ch. LVI: vs 77-79)

 

(2) A revealed form taught to the Holy Prophet when he was created and given the power of expression.


 

“(God), the Beneficent, Taught He the Qur’an. He created man, He taught him Expression.”

(Ch: LV: vs 1-3).

 

And

 

(3) an arranged form revealed to the heart of the Holy Prophet in its totality on the esteemed night in the month of Ramadhan. (Ch. XLIV: vs 1-6 and Ch. XCVII: Al-Qadr).

 

These three stages refer to God’s teaching the Holy Prophet and acquainting him with the Qur’an.

 

(4) Fourth is the stage of the gradual revelation of the Qur’an; in this stage the revelation of the Qur’an part by part was meant for recitation to the people (Ch. XVII: v 106):

 

“And it is the Qur’an which We have apportioned it so that thou mayest recite it unto the people with deliberation (by degrees), and We have sent it down, gradually in portions.”

(Ch: XVII: v 106)

 

It was in this stage of recitation that the first five verses of Ch. XLVI (‘Alaq or Iqra) were revealed. The first chapter of the Qur’an named al- Fatihatul-Kitab (the Opening Chapter of the Holy Book, the Qur’an) was revealed for the recitation later. In this stage of revelation the circumstances would require quotation and recitation of some chapters or verses (from chapters) not in accordance with the order of the previous arrangement. A portion of one chapter would be recited earlier and the other portion would remain to be recited later on. In this interval few other chapters were revealed for recitation.

 

(5) Fifth is the stage of post-gradual revelation wherein the Qur’an was taught to be placed within the reach of Jinns and Ins (Jinns and human beings) as an everlasting guidance and challenging miracle. Post-gradual revelation begins in the last year of the Holy Prophet’s ministry. The Holy Prophet said that Gabriel used to place the Qur’an before him every year but this year he placed it twice before him as it was the Holy Prophet’s last year in this material world. It was approximately three months before the Holy Prophet’s repeated declaration:

 

“ I am leaving among you two precious things, the Book of God and my Ahl al-Bayt.”

 

It is obvious, then, that the arrangement of the post-gradual revelation should be in accordance with the order of the Qur’an or pre-gradual revelation because circumstances may require an earlier recitation of a portion which might be next in the order of the pre-revealed arrangement.

 

This fact is supported by the Qur’an

 

“Verily, on Us is the collection of it and the recital of it! (Ch. LXXV:v 17)

 

Also there are the traditions indicating that the Holy Prophet used to order the scribes to place the revealed verses of different rhythmical pitch in the relevant chapters; and the Qur’an was revised by Gabriel twice in the last year of the Prophet’s ministry. Therefore, the place and the date of revelation have no bearing on the order of arrangement of the Qur’an in post-gradual revelation. What we find written in the beginning of every chapter about the date and place of revelation ( whether revealed in Mecca or Medina) are not part of the Qur’an. People had marked these out for their reference. Thus, it is not correct to consider the present placing of the Madani Chapters before Makki and vice versa as a sign of disorder and lack of proper arrangement.”

 

Page #’s: 30-32

Book: Essence of The Holy Qur’an (The Eternal Light)

By: Ayatullah Agha Haji Mirza Mahdi Pooya

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4 hours ago, hoskot said:

let us look at the verse again.

[Shakir 4:59] O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end.

We have the following:
Verb 1: Obey
Object 1: Allah
Verb 2: Obey
Object 2: Rasul and ulil amri from among you

obviously, Rasul and Ulil Amri are excluded from "O you who believe". were u to include the Prophet, r u saying, the Prophet has to obey ulil amri? this is simply outrageous!

another point: ulil amri cannot be any unjust/sinning imam/caliph/president/prime minister etc, etc.

they can only refer to the infallible imams a.s., otherwise we will be assuming that Allah is ordering the Muslim to obey orders that may contradict the teachings of Islam, which is impossible.

hence, obeying ulil amri is obeying the Prophet and obeying the Prophet is obeying Allah.

as to the second part of the verse, i believe, quarreling among ourselves is not allowed, what more with ulil amri! here's the proof (prohibition to quarrel among ourselves).

[Shakir 8:46] And obey Allah and His Messenger and do not quarrel for then you will be weak in hearts and your power will depart, and be patient; surely Allah is with the patient.

honestly, everyone using his own interpretation is a recipe for division in religion.

i believe "...but none knows its interpretation except Allah and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge." (Quran 3:7). otherwise it just doesn't seem to add up to me. and these deeply rooted in knowledge are the same ulil amri, after the Prophet.

this kind of recitation can also be found in tafsir ibn kathir where it was reported that ibn abbas claimed he is one of those firmly rooted in knowledge.

No, I was explaining the Consistent referential sequencing of order and subjects of verbs.

Those in authority must obey the messenger who must obey Allah. Just as in 8:20 and 8:46 as you mentioned, which have Obey Allah and the Messenger.  No obey messenger here because messenger must obey Allah.  Allah is not inconsistent.   The set of elements is inclusive

Why does it say if you beleive in Allah and the last day, that is a very good or best result? Why not if you beleive  in sunnah or imams or "something"?

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8 minutes ago, S.M.H.A. said:

Quote:

“ 8. The Qur’an claims several stages of its existence

 

(1) A pre-revealed existence with God in the Lawhe Mahfuz (Ch. LXXXV: v 22) (protected tablet) and in the Kitab-e-Maknun Ch. LVI: vs 77-79) (hidden book).

 

“Verily it is an honoured Qur’an, In a Book hidden, Toucheth it not save the purified ones.”

(Ch. LVI: vs 77-79)

 

(2) A revealed form taught to the Holy Prophet when he was created and given the power of expression.


 

“(God), the Beneficent, Taught He the Qur’an. He created man, He taught him Expression.”

(Ch: LV: vs 1-3).

 

And

 

(3) an arranged form revealed to the heart of the Holy Prophet in its totality on the esteemed night in the month of Ramadhan. (Ch. XLIV: vs 1-6 and Ch. XCVII: Al-Qadr).

 

These three stages refer to God’s teaching the Holy Prophet and acquainting him with the Qur’an.

 

(4) Fourth is the stage of the gradual revelation of the Qur’an; in this stage the revelation of the Qur’an part by part was meant for recitation to the people (Ch. XVII: v 106):

 

“And it is the Qur’an which We have apportioned it so that thou mayest recite it unto the people with deliberation (by degrees), and We have sent it down, gradually in portions.”

(Ch: XVII: v 106)

 

It was in this stage of recitation that the first five verses of Ch. XLVI (‘Alaq or Iqra) were revealed. The first chapter of the Qur’an named al- Fatihatul-Kitab (the Opening Chapter of the Holy Book, the Qur’an) was revealed for the recitation later. In this stage of revelation the circumstances would require quotation and recitation of some chapters or verses (from chapters) not in accordance with the order of the previous arrangement. A portion of one chapter would be recited earlier and the other portion would remain to be recited later on. In this interval few other chapters were revealed for recitation.

 

(5) Fifth is the stage of post-gradual revelation wherein the Qur’an was taught to be placed within the reach of Jinns and Ins (Jinns and human beings) as an everlasting guidance and challenging miracle. Post-gradual revelation begins in the last year of the Holy Prophet’s ministry. The Holy Prophet said that Gabriel used to place the Qur’an before him every year but this year he placed it twice before him as it was the Holy Prophet’s last year in this material world. It was approximately three months before the Holy Prophet’s repeated declaration:

 

“ I am leaving among you two precious things, the Book of God and my Ahl al-Bayt.”

 

It is obvious, then, that the arrangement of the post-gradual revelation should be in accordance with the order of the Qur’an or pre-gradual revelation because circumstances may require an earlier recitation of a portion which might be next in the order of the pre-revealed arrangement.

 

This fact is supported by the Qur’an

 

“Verily, on Us is the collection of it and the recital of it! (Ch. LXXV:v 17)

 

Also there are the traditions indicating that the Holy Prophet used to order the scribes to place the revealed verses of different rhythmical pitch in the relevant chapters; and the Qur’an was revised by Gabriel twice in the last year of the Prophet’s ministry. Therefore, the place and the date of revelation have no bearing on the order of arrangement of the Qur’an in post-gradual revelation. What we find written in the beginning of every chapter about the date and place of revelation ( whether revealed in Mecca or Medina) are not part of the Qur’an. People had marked these out for their reference. Thus, it is not correct to consider the present placing of the Madani Chapters before Makki and vice versa as a sign of disorder and lack of proper arrangement.”

 

Page #’s: 30-32

Book: Essence of The Holy Qur’an (The Eternal Light)

By: Ayatullah Agha Haji Mirza Mahdi Pooya

what is all this from?

Why is it not in quran?

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Why is no one on topic? The point is why none of the sahaba's turned up to Hussain's martyrdom? Well, it is an interesting question and we must applaud the questioner for asking what many shia ask in their hearts. Why do the Sunnis not come? They have hard hearts?

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4 hours ago, hoskot said:

i believe "...but none knows its interpretation except Allah and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge." (Quran 3:7). otherwise it just doesn't seem to add up to me. and these deeply rooted in knowledge are the same ulil amri, after the Prophet

Quran 24:45

Allah has created every [living] creature from water. And of them are those that move on their bellies, and of them are those that walk on two legs, and of them are those that walk on four. Allah creates what He wills. Indeed, Allah is over all things competent.

 

When this verse was revealed  in circa 600 AD, or when muslims pondered thjs 500 years ago, did they understand what the heck this verse meant.  It was only until centuries later man with his knowledge determined scientifically that life on Earth started from water.   Validating Allahs words.

Dont you think this applies to 3:7?

Humans wont understand everything in the quran right away, with time we are discovering and realizing new knowledge. 

Evolution would have been discovered long before if Muhammad SAW, his descendents, or companions  knew and understood this verse .

Edited by wmehar2

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وَإِذْ أَخَذَ اللَّهُ مِيثَاقَ النَّبِيِّينَ لَمَا آتَيْتُكُمْ مِنْ كِتَابٍ وَحِكْمَةٍ ثُمَّ جَاءَكُمْ رَسُولٌ مُصَدِّقٌ لِمَا مَعَكُمْ لَتُؤْمِنُنَّ بِهِ وَلَتَنْصُرُنَّهُ ۚ قَالَ أَأَقْرَرْتُمْ وَأَخَذْتُمْ عَلَىٰ ذَٰلِكُمْ إِصْرِي ۖ قَالُوا أَقْرَرْنَا ۚ قَالَ فَاشْهَدُوا وَأَنَا مَعَكُمْ مِنَ الشَّاهِدِينَ {81}

[Shakir 3:81] And when Allah made a covenant through the prophets: Certainly what I have given you of Book and wisdom-- then an messenger comes to you verifying that which is with you, you must believe in him, and you must aid him. He said: Do you affirm and accept My compact in this (matter)? They said: We do affirm. He said: Then bear witness, and I (too) am of the bearers of witness with you.
[Pickthal 3:81] When Allah made (His) covenant with the prophets, (He said): Behold that which I have given you of the Scripture and knowledge. And afterward there will come unto you a messenger, confirming that which ye possess. Ye shall believe in him and ye shall help him. He said: Do ye agree, and will ye take up My burden (which I lay upon you) in this (matter)? They answered: We agree. He said: Then bear ye witness. I will be a witness with you.
[Yusufali 3:81] Behold! Allah took the covenant of the prophets, saying: "I give you a Book and Wisdom; then comes to you a messenger, confirming what is with you; do ye believe in him and render him help." Allah said: "Do ye agree, and take this my Covenant as binding on you?" They said: "We agree." He said: "Then bear witness, and I am with you among the witnesses."

فَمَنْ تَوَلَّىٰ بَعْدَ ذَٰلِكَ فَأُولَٰئِكَ هُمُ الْفَاسِقُونَ {82}

[Shakir 3:82] Whoever therefore turns back after this, these it is that are the transgressors.
[Pickthal 3:82] Then whosoever after this shall turn away: they will be miscreants.
[Yusufali 3:82] If any turn back after this, they are perverted transgressors

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3 minutes ago, S.M.H.A. said:
وَإِذْ أَخَذَ اللَّهُ مِيثَاقَ النَّبِيِّينَ لَمَا آتَيْتُكُمْ مِنْ كِتَابٍ وَحِكْمَةٍ ثُمَّ جَاءَكُمْ رَسُولٌ مُصَدِّقٌ لِمَا مَعَكُمْ لَتُؤْمِنُنَّ بِهِ وَلَتَنْصُرُنَّهُ ۚ قَالَ أَأَقْرَرْتُمْ وَأَخَذْتُمْ عَلَىٰ ذَٰلِكُمْ إِصْرِي ۖ قَالُوا أَقْرَرْنَا ۚ قَالَ فَاشْهَدُوا وَأَنَا مَعَكُمْ مِنَ الشَّاهِدِينَ {81}

[Shakir 3:81] And when Allah made a covenant through the prophets: Certainly what I have given you of Book and wisdom-- then an messenger comes to you verifying that which is with you, you must believe in him, and you must aid him. He said: Do you affirm and accept My compact in this (matter)? They said: We do affirm. He said: Then bear witness, and I (too) am of the bearers of witness with you.
[Pickthal 3:81] When Allah made (His) covenant with the prophets, (He said): Behold that which I have given you of the Scripture and knowledge. And afterward there will come unto you a messenger, confirming that which ye possess. Ye shall believe in him and ye shall help him. He said: Do ye agree, and will ye take up My burden (which I lay upon you) in this (matter)? They answered: We agree. He said: Then bear ye witness. I will be a witness with you.
[Yusufali 3:81] Behold! Allah took the covenant of the prophets, saying: "I give you a Book and Wisdom; then comes to you a messenger, confirming what is with you; do ye believe in him and render him help." Allah said: "Do ye agree, and take this my Covenant as binding on you?" They said: "We agree." He said: "Then bear witness, and I am with you among the witnesses."

فَمَنْ تَوَلَّىٰ بَعْدَ ذَٰلِكَ فَأُولَٰئِكَ هُمُ الْفَاسِقُونَ {82}

[Shakir 3:82] Whoever therefore turns back after this, these it is that are the transgressors.
[Pickthal 3:82] Then whosoever after this shall turn away: they will be miscreants.
[Yusufali 3:82] If any turn back after this, they are perverted transgressors

No contention here.  Though I'm not sure if there's a particular direction you're going.

Allah told Prophets that after them another messenger will come (from my perspective that could be Jibril or Muhammad, I assume its Muhammad because he needed aid to unite Arabia and solidify religion of the people), angel doesn't really need help in dunya matters.

Muhammad validated and confirmed what was sent down before him...as proof he is a genuine messenger  upon receiving the message.

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وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَاكَ إِلَّا رَحْمَةً لِلْعَالَمِينَ 107}

[Shakir 21:107] And We have not sent you but as a mercy to the worlds.
[Pickthal 21:107] We sent thee not save as a mercy for the peoples.
[Yusufali 21:107] We sent thee not, but as a Mercy for all creatures.

 

*****

 

عَبَسَ وَتَوَلَّىٰ {1}

[Shakir 80:1] He frowned and turned (his) back,
[Pickthal 80:1] He frowned and turned away
[Yusufali 80:1] (The Prophet) frowned and turned away,

 

*****

Which Concept/Verse   is Decisive/ Clear Mother of the Book and which one is Allegorical? 

 

هُوَ الَّذِي أَنْزَلَ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ مِنْهُ آيَاتٌ مُحْكَمَاتٌ هُنَّ أُمُّ الْكِتَابِ وَأُخَرُ مُتَشَابِهَاتٌ ۖ فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ فِي قُلُوبِهِمْ زَيْغٌ فَيَتَّبِعُونَ مَا تَشَابَهَ مِنْهُ ابْتِغَاءَ الْفِتْنَةِ وَابْتِغَاءَ تَأْوِيلِهِ ۗ وَمَا يَعْلَمُ تَأْوِيلَهُ إِلَّا اللَّهُ ۗ وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ يَقُولُونَ آمَنَّا بِهِ كُلٌّ مِنْ عِنْدِ رَبِّنَا ۗ وَمَا يَذَّكَّرُ إِلَّا أُولُو الْأَلْبَابِ {7}

[Pickthal 3:7] He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - and others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.

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1 hour ago, wmehar2 said:

No, I was explaining the Consistent referential sequencing of order and subjects of verbs.

Those in authority must obey the messenger who must obey Allah. Just as in 8:20 and 8:46 as you mentioned, which have Obey Allah and the Messenger.  No obey messenger here because messenger must obey Allah.  Allah is not inconsistent.   The set of elements is inclusive

Why does it say if you beleive in Allah and the last day, that is a very good or best result? Why not if you beleive  in sunnah or imams or "something"?

dear bro

the verse is commanding the believers to obey Allah and obey Rasul and Ulil Amri. very simple and straight forward. the emphasis is not and should not be "Those in authority must obey the messenger who must obey Allah".  The believers have to obey ulil amri, just as they obey the Rasul (in this case, it's the Prophet), unconditionally.

some use the second part of the verse "....then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end." as a proof, we can quarrel/dispute with ulil amri.

but Quran [8:46] clearly says "......do not quarrel..".

and this is what the quran says about those who say we believe in Allah and the last day

[Shakir 2:8] And there are some people who say: We believe in Allah and the last day; and they are not at all believers.

thus the second part is more like a rebuke to me.

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