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In the Name of God بسم الله

Is the soul of man Godly?

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1 hour ago, islam25 said:

Imam Khomeini says. 

What ever exists is Him(  Allah ).

Allama Tabatbaie soul of All souls is Beloved. 

Imam Ali says I donot see anything but Allah before it  iinto it and after it. 

And quran says where ever you turn their is face of Allah. 

Allah is first and last and outer and inner. 

 

Please cite by reference and I will make you understand what they meant :)

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1 hour ago, islam25 said:

Imam Khomeini says. 

What ever exists is Him(  Allah ).

Allama Tabatbaie soul of All souls is Beloved. 

Imam Ali says I donot see anything but Allah before it  iinto it and after it. 

And quran says where ever you turn their is face of Allah. 

Allah is first and last and outer and inner. 

 

For Ayotullah Khomeini, I will answer you after you provide me reference but for others I answer you.

Allama Tabataba'i has said truth by "Soul"he meant "life giver".

Imam Ali a.s says truth that everything is controlled by Allah either it be small or large. Thus, I see honey in the belly of bee and milk in the belly of cows to be his invention and trees and greenery to be his creation.

Quran says truth that you can't escape Allah for Allah's Kingdom is everywhere.

Allah is first before whom no one comes and last upon whom lasting of all depends. Albeit it is not "outer"and "inner" but "manifest by his power" and "hidden from eyes", you translated wrongly. 

Edited by Sindbad05
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21 minutes ago, AfricanShia said:

Real and reality dont apply to him. In the sense that He is beyond our comprehension.

Oh then also:

"Real and reality not applying to Him" also does not apply to Him.  "Him being beyond our comprehension" also does not apply to Him.  

 

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59 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

AS meant that He AWJ is beyond our absolute understanding 

If that is the case then He is also beyond being beyond.  He is also beyond being "beyond our absolute understanding".

 

If you negate an attribute of God, you also must negate the negation of the attribute.  

 

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12 minutes ago, Jimmy Boy said:

Guys,let's stick to the topic,please. What's your view,based on Muslim doctrine,about this Jewish doctrine(which,it has to be noted,is not accepted by all Jewsih scholars because some of them view it as idolatry) that the soul is literally a part of God in the body of humans(Jews only)?

Brother,

The answer depends on which Muslim you ask.  If you ask your avg Shia on Shiachatter the answer will probably be that "Muslim Shias do not believe we are a part of God".  There is truth to this, but it is not absolutely correct also. It is true because God is not made of parts.  If God is not made of parts then how can we make up a part of God?  This avg shiachatter position is also incorrect because this Jewish man speaking does not mean to imply that God has parts!  He is using the word "part" is a very lose and metaphorical way.  This is obvious for anyone who is even in the slightest way mystically inclined.   

 

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18 minutes ago, AfricanShia said:

No. Him being beyond our comprehension does apply to Him. 

So you have limited Him to being beyond.  

 

This is where your mind is now failing you.  You need to start using your heart (and not just your mind).  If you don;t use your heart at all, you will be just a short distance away from denying His existence altogether.  In fact, you might as well say He doesn't exist Since God is beyond existence and beyond reality. 

 

 

Edited by eThErEaL
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3 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

So you have limited Him to being beyond.  

 

This is where your mind is now failing you.  You need to start using your heart (and not just your mind).

 

 

Me claiming that we cant comprehend Him is limiting Him?

 If anyone's mind is failing them it would be yours. Not mime.

Edited by AfricanShia
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5 minutes ago, AfricanShia said:

Me claiming that we cant comprehend Him is limiting Him?

 If anyone's mind is failing them it would be yours. Not mime.

So, by "reality" I mean "to be real" or "to exist", "to have being".  Are you saying God is beyond being real, beyond existing, beyond being?  I don't disagree with this statement.     

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44 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

this Jewish man speaking does not mean to imply that God has parts!  He is using the word "part" is a very lose and metaphorical way.  This is obvious for anyone who is even in the slightest way mystically inclined.   

 

That's what I hoped too! But,looking in the matter more deeply,this particular branch of Judaism called Chabad literally believes that God is physically present in the soul of every single Jew,thus making him totally superior than the rest of humanity which hasn't got God in its soul! To be honest,they have been and still are harshly criticized by other Jews for this idolatrous doctrine which turns men into walking demi-gods by other Jews!

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2 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

So, by "reality" I mean "to be real" or "to exist", "to have being".  Are you saying God is beyond being real, beyond existing, beyond being?  I don't disagree with this statement.     

Allah is beyond our reality. We must realize that he created this reality. We can never have the intellectual capacity of understanding Allah.

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2 hours ago, Jimmy Boy said:

That's what I hoped too! But,looking in the matter more deeply,this particular branch of Judaism called Chabad literally believes that God is physically present in the soul of every single Jew,thus making him totally superior than the rest of humanity which hasn't got God in its soul! To be honest,they have been and still are harshly criticized by other Jews for this idolatrous doctrine which turns men into walking demi-gods by other Jews!

Yes.  I see what you mean.  I found it odd when he kept saying Jews are favored.  So perhaps you have a point and that you are correct that these are different Jews.  Wallahu alam.

 

 

Edited by eThErEaL
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1 hour ago, AfricanShia said:

Allah is beyond our reality. We must realize that he created this reality. We can never have the intellectual capacity of understanding Allah.

I think even a a child in Day Care should be knowing that God created us.  Did you honestly think I don't know that? :)

When I speak of reality I am speaking of reality plain and simple.  Not this or that reality. Not our reality.  Not his or her reality.  Not even Some so called "God's reality".  I simply mean, reality as such.  

Now God does not have a reality.  This is because God IS reality.  God IS what it means TO BE REAL.  You can even say that the reality of each and every thing is God.  God Is reality AS SUCH.

Now, why is this?

Because reality has no limit(s).  Reality has no bounds.  If there is anything at all which is absolute it is what we mean by reality.  

It gets more interesting.  Whatever it is that you truly understand by reality or being or existence, that is the degree to which you understand God.  If you feel that reality is limited in your existential and practical day to day life, that means you unconsciously but effectively limit God.  

The fact of the matter is that reality is not a thing.  Reality is therefore unlimited or unbounded.  There is nothing outside of reality and there is nothing inside reality. reality is not outside nor inside anything.  Reality simply is.  There is nothing other than reality, for if there is anything other than reality then that thing which is other than reality would have to be real and therefore a kind of reality.  So there is nothing but reality, reality is all there is.  And nothing can block the presence of reality.  And this is why everything around you is nothing except that it is a reality.  There is is only one reality because nothing other than reality can divide or distinguish one reality from another reality.  All differences we experience are due to our illusory ignorance of the Oneness of Reality.  

 

Edited by eThErEaL
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1 minute ago, eThErEaL said:

I think even a a child in Day Care should be knowing that God created us.  Did you honestly think I don't know that? :)

When I speak of reality I am speaking of reality plain and simple.  Not this or that reality. Not our reality.  Not his or her reality.  Not even Some so called "God's reality".  I simply mean, reality as such.  

Now God does not have a reality.  This is because God IS reality.  God IS what it means TO BE REAL.  You can even say that the reality of each and every thing is God.  God Is reality AS SUCH.

Now, why is this?

Because reality has no limit(s).  Reality has no bounds.  If there is anything at all which is absolute it is what we mean by reality.  

It gets more interesting.  Whatever it is that you truly understand by reality or being or existence, that is the degree to which you understand God.  If you feel that reality is limited in your existential and practical day to day life, that means you unconsciously but effectively limit God.  

The fact of the matter is that reality is not a thing.  Reality is therefore limited or bounded.  There is nothing outside of reality and there is nothing inside reality. reality is not outside nor inside anything.  Reality simply is.  There is nothing other than reality, for if there is anything other than reality then that thing which is other than reality would have to be real and therefore a kind of reality.  So there is nothing but reality, reality is all there is.  And nothing can block the presence of reality.  And this is why everything around you is nothing except that it is a reality.  There is is only one reality because nothing other than reality can divide or distinguish one reality from another reality.  Alldifferences we experience are due to our illusory ignorance of the Oneness of Reality.  

 

Allah cannot be put into reality because verily nothing can hold Him. 

The definition of reality is the world or the state of things as they actually exist therefore Allah is beyond reality. 

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6 hours ago, Sindbad05 said:

For Ayotullah Khomeini, I will answer you after you provide me reference but for others I answer you.

Allama Tabataba'i has said truth by "Soul"he meant "life giver".

Imam Ali a.s says truth that everything is controlled by Allah either it be small or large. Thus, I see honey in the belly of bee and milk in the belly of cows to be his invention and trees and greenery to be his creation.

Quran says truth that you can't escape Allah for Allah's Kingdom is everywhere.

Allah is first before whom no one comes and last upon whom lasting of all depends. Albeit it is not "outer"and "inner" but "manifest by his power" and "hidden from eyes", you translated wrongly. 

Mr.

I donot deny your understanding. But what they mean is everything that exists is Him. We can't recognise it . because our heart is veiled .

The Religion has layers of perfection. 

Islam means submitting to Allah whether we like or not. 

Iman is higher stage where one happyly submitts to Allah. 

Then is Itminaan or Tranquillity that more perfected form of belief .

Then higher stage is Shahood where one recieves visions in his heart. Sees beyond physical relem. 

Then there more higher stages that beyond our comprehension. 

But our denying those who have visions has no value. 

 

Edited by islam25
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51 minutes ago, islam25 said:

I donot deny your understanding. But what they mean is everything that exists is Him. We can't recognise it . because our heart is veiled .

Show me reference about Ayotullah Khomeini where he said: "Whatever exists is Him". I want to confirm it.

If Ayotullah has said it, then it means: "Only Allah's existence is real and everyr thing depends upon His existence". 

52 minutes ago, islam25 said:

The Religion has layers of perfection. 

Islam means submitting to Allah whether we like or not. 

Iman is higher stage where one happyly submitts to Allah. 

Then is Itminaan or Tranquillity that more perfected form of belief .

Then higher stage is Shahood where one recieves visions in his heart. Sees beyond physical relem. 

Then there more higher stages that beyond our comprehension. 

But our denying those who have visions has no value. 

 

brother, I suppose you are very young or unaware of what Ahlebait a.s taught us and you listen to ordinary people that is why you made religion to be that much difficult. rather than thinking over what Ayotullah's have said. None of Ayotullahs say that deen is so difficult. Otherwise, Ahlebait a.s say that Islam is simple. Do not oppose beliefs of Islam in Usool and Furuh whichever is taught to us by Ahlebait a.s. 

I now take permission from you as this matter has been discussed to its full. 

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12 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

This dichotomy between soul and spirit is illusory.  

How can it be? 

Perhaps you are saying this because of the fact that ourselves are the result of divine command.

فَإِذَا سَوَّيْتُهُ وَنَفَخْتُ فِيهِ مِن رُّوحِي فَقَعُواْ لَهُ سَاجِدِينَ

"So when I have made him complete and breathed into him My Spirit, fall down making obeisance to him" (15:29)

But He also mentioned the difference between two in a different place as:

 أَلاَ لَهُ الْخَلْقُ وَالأَمْرُ
"Surely His is the creation and the command" (7:54)

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5 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

 

The fact of the matter is that reality is not a thing.  Reality is therefore unlimited or unbounded.  There is nothing outside of reality and there is nothing inside reality. reality is not outside nor inside anything.  Reality simply is.  There is nothing other than reality, for if there is anything other than reality then that thing which is other than reality would have to be real and therefore a kind of reality.  So there is nothing but reality, reality is all there is.  And nothing can block the presence of reality.  And this is why everything around you is nothing except that it is a reality.  There is is only one reality because nothing other than reality can divide or distinguish one reality from another reality.  All differences we experience are due to our illusory ignorance of the Oneness of Reality.  

 

So when someone tells a lie, that "lie" is a reality too?? What about things which dont exist for example monsters, fairies, ...?

Do you mean that everything which doesnt exist is reality too? And if yes, then how do you define "unreality"?

 

Edited by shadow_of_light
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13 hours ago, SunniBrother said:

Your lack of comprehension of Him is your understanding of Him - Abu Bakr.

The Prophet (s.a.w.s) said - This nation will be destroyed when people start debating about God.

So I just say what was transmitted to me without trying to comprehend.

Can you please give the reference or the Arabic text of the narration?

I want to know if debating about God is totally forbiden. If it is so, then how can you prove Him for an atheist (I mean without debating or arguing)?

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5 hours ago, AfricanShia said:

Allah cannot be put into reality because verily nothing can hold Him. 

The definition of reality is the world or the state of things as they actually exist therefore Allah is beyond reality. 

Yes.  You are correct.  But also very very wrong.  

Keep us in your prayers dear brothe ror sister.  

 

As for me you and everyone here will need to excuse me because I feel that I am officially done done with ShiaChat.  

 

Take care

masalama

 

ethereal

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6 hours ago, Sindbad05 said:

Show me reference about Ayotullah Khomeini where he said: "Whatever exists is Him". I want to confirm it.

If Ayotullah has said it, then it means: "Only Allah's existence is real and everyr thing depends upon His existence". 

brother, I suppose you are very young or unaware of what Ahlebait a.s taught us and you listen to ordinary people that is why you made religion to be that much difficult. rather than thinking over what Ayotullah's have said. None of Ayotullahs say that deen is so difficult. Otherwise, Ahlebait a.s say that Islam is simple. Do not oppose beliefs of Islam in Usool and Furuh whichever is taught to us by Ahlebait a.s. 

I now take permission from you as this matter has been discussed to its full. 

Just read following paragraph from Imam khomis commentary on suratul Hamad. 

Allah is the light of the heavens and the earth.(24:35)

Everything is illuminated by His light. Everything has appeared by dint of His light. This appearance itself is a reflection of His light. Man's appearance is also a light. Therefore man himself is a light. Animals are also a light of Allah's glory. The existence of the heavens and the earth is a light from Allah. This light has so passed away in Allah that the Qur'an has said: Allah is the light of the heavens and the earth.

It has not said that the heavens and the earth are illuminated by the light of Allah. The reason is that the heavens and the earth are a nonentity. Nothing in our world has an independent existence of its own. In other words there is nothing here that is self-existing. In fact there is no existent other than Allah

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30 minutes ago, islam25 said:

It has not said that the heavens and the earth are illuminated by the light of Allah. The reason is that the heavens and the earth are a nonentity. Nothing in our world has an independent existence of its own. In other words there is nothing here that is self-existing. In fact there is no existent other than Allah

When Ayotullah say about Allah as light, they mean Him the sustainer, creator and manager.

Though it is not said that heaven and earth are not illuminated by light of Allah but Allah means the same when He AWJ says I am light of Heavens and Earth that when ever you require guidance for understanding of my creation, you cannot understand it until you reach a source from where light of my guidance emanate and that are ahlebait a.s. There is no other light from where you can light your Aql. 

I already said don't take Ayotullah's every word as literal delve into  it's deeper meanings and always get a meaning that don't mix up creator and creation for if you do that then you will lose path bro.

I think we have discussed it in detail and there isn't any point that is not repeated.

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57 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

When Ayotullah say about Allah as light, they mean Him the sustainer, creator and manager.

Though it is not said that heaven and earth are not illuminated by light of Allah but Allah means the same when He AWJ says I am light of Heavens and Earth that when ever you require guidance for understanding of my creation, you cannot understand it until you reach a source from where light of my guidance emanate and that are ahlebait a.s. There is no other light from where you can light your Aql. 

I already said don't take Ayotullah's every word as literal delve into  it's deeper meanings and always get a meaning that don't mix up creator and creation for if you do that then you will lose path bro.

I think we have discussed it in detail and there isn't any point that is not repeated.

Mr.

He gradually clears the concept. Infact there is no existent other than Allah. 

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1 hour ago, Sindbad05 said:

When Ayotullah say about Allah as light, they mean Him the sustainer, creator and manager.

Though it is not said that heaven and earth are not illuminated by light of Allah but Allah means the same when He AWJ says I am light of Heavens and Earth that when ever you require guidance for understanding of my creation, you cannot understand it until you reach a source from where light of my guidance emanate and that are ahlebait a.s. There is no other light from where you can light your Aql. 

I already said don't take Ayotullah's every word as literal delve into  it's deeper meanings and always get a meaning that don't mix up creator and creation for if you do that then you will lose path bro.

I think we have discussed it in detail and there isn't any point that is not repeated.

It is what they say. They do not accept creator and created two different entity. 

Rather both are one and that is Allah. 

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1 hour ago, islam25 said:

It is what they say. They do not accept creator and created two different entity. 

None of them have such things, it is your invention bro. That is why a person who is unable to think as per Islam must not read works of mysticism because like Quran which says that if unbelievers and hypocrites read Quran, it increases their disease which means that they only try to interpret conflicting things and hence get perverted and also propagate wrong information about Quran among people and earn sins for it instead of virtue. 

So, beware of this thing. 

1 hour ago, islam25 said:

He gradually clears the concept. Infact there is no existent other than Allah. 

He gradually leads to the point that real existence is of Allah upon whom we all depend.

 

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9 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

None of them have such things, it is your invention bro. That is why a person who is unable to think as per Islam must not read works of mysticism because like Quran which says that if unbelievers and hypocrites read Quran, it increases their disease which means that they only try to interpret conflicting things and hence get perverted and also propagate wrong information about Quran among people and earn sins for it instead of virtue. 

So, beware of this thing. 

He gradually leads to the point that real existence is of Allah upon whom we all depend.

 

In fact there is no existent other than Allah.

Just think over it.

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