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Western Islam

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7 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

This is a great topic but I am not sure if West vs. East is the real issue or modern Islam vs traditional Islam is the issue.

A woman led jama'at prayers in NYC - not acceptable islamically. 

Women in US attend jumah prayers and in large numbers whereas they don't in the East - perfectly acceptable

So the issue is do we change Islam according to the times much like how Christians have changed Christianity (e.g. more and more churches are accepting homosexuality)?

There are even organizations setup in the US (Jewish funded) that want to modernize Islam.

We are at the exact crossroad Christianity was about 500 years ago when the Reform movement started. They had their hard core fundamentalists like salafi and ultra modern (may be Ismaili ).  

Fundamentalism wins in the short term. Tolerance and adaptability wins in the long run.

I think the difference between their crossroad and our crossroad today is that in our case there is no confusion regarding what is haram and what is halal.

Just like you said, a women leading jumah prayers, although it sounds perfectly fine in this modern way of looking at things, is clearly not allowed in the religion of Islam.

As far as women attending the jumah prayers more in the west, I believe it is because traditionally speaking, such as in the case of the east, most women are house wives and tied down more to the house and kids while in the west they are much more independent while also not building families as early as they used to. Is this better or worse? I dont know, I see many unmarried people in their late 20's in the west and that way of living is starting to become more popular in the east as well now. I dont know it follows our nature so well to stay unmarried and not start a family.

Its important to see the forces that are pushing for a more westernized version of Islam and to clearly point them out because there is an agenda rest assured.

I believe Islam in of itself is perfect in every sense possible and there is no need for adding or removing anything whatsoever. What we need to do is really adhere to our religion and put culture aside, that way we will inshaAllah be successful.

The christians wanted to adapt to every culture they went to and as such the religion they were told to follow became different from the religion they followed which in turn became different from the religion they are following today.

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On 10/22/2017 at 6:12 PM, Wahdat said:

1000s of Pashtun/Muslim women have come to Canada and live with dignity and honor. Last week the Canadian guy who was released from the Pashtun captivity told the world how their captors kept on raping his wife.  I do not even want to go to Syria to show you the spiritual & moral decadence of some the Islamic communities. So yeah, books, knowledge, ideas etc are necessary for a healthy society or community. West is intellectually & morally superior.

Again, comparing apples to oranges. Give Afghanistan about maybe a half a century or more to stabilize from invasions by the soviets, the civil war, Taliban takeover, and the United states. Trust me if the US and Canada went through just one devastating invasion by a country wherein most of their country's civil and social infrastructure is decimated, the "morally and intellectually" superior west will devolve into wild animals and become the most extremist libertarians you can find. You quite literally cannot compare Canada to Afghanistan seeing as how they are two completely different environments. One is even today an active war zone and the other is a country that has not fought a war on its soil since the war of 1812.

 

Also bruh, rape occurs quite regularly in the west. In fact, rape does occur on average in MUCH higher numbers in stable western countries as compared to stable muslim countries even when the population is the same. For example, does your average Iranian, Saudi, Indonesian, Malaysian, etc. women have to fear being raped if she walked the streets of a major city at night in her native country? To some extent yes but to a lot less of a diminished extent than say if she was walking down the streets of Chicago, New York, etc. at night. Even on college campuses it occurs quite a decent amount as well. But I suppose if your rapist is blonde haired blue eyed it does not matter compared to a guy wearing a turban and is pashtun. Also, just google the horrific things that US soldiers did in Abu Ghraib. Yes, the US shut it down but the point is that such horrific things also have occurred in the middle of war zones in that country. With countless massacres that occurred during the US invasion of Iraq and countless sexual crimes that soldiers did. But, I guess if your rapist has camo on he is not as guilty as a guy with a turban on...

 

Also seriously, Syria? Now I know you just love to commit fallacies in logical thinking and just run with knee jerk reactions. Why in the absolute heck would you compare Syria to Canada or any stable western country? In fact, it would be better to compare Syria to say Brazil. One country is militarily powerful and has a good economy but has horrible sexual and criminal violence and is worse off than Syria in that regard. Even if a woman was captured by The Taliban she would be less likely to be raped by them than say if she decided to walk down the streets of the more poorer parts of Sao Paulo. Heck, if one is to talk about which part of the world has treated women in the most horrible way in terms of sexual violence then look no further than South America. 

 

In fact, why don't you actually compare stable muslim countries with that of stable western countries. Afghanistan according to its HDI score is not qualified. Since this is a shia website why don't you say compare the amount of danger an Iranian woman would face in terms of sexual assault if she was in Tehran with the modesty police on full lookout vs say the danger a muslim woman would face in New York City? Also to equalize let us assume both are in the commercial districts of their cities. Also, let us compare threat level in daytime vs nighttime. Also let us normalize this by saying that the comparison time would be when the police in the commercial district of New York City are the most active and when the modesty police in the commercial district in Tehran are also the most active. Also let us assume that both the Modesty police and the New York city police do not commit violence against the muslim woman in question here. Yes, I know the modesty police and its torture sessions but at the same time I believe the supreme leader of Iran and the Iranian President criticised this and said the modesty police should only issue fines and not resort to torture and kidnapping. 

 

Again, don't think I am deflecting from the sexual crimes done in the muslim world. Yes, muslims have been and even now are trying to curb the amount of sexual crime in the muslim world. However, to say such blatantly inundated things and not pretend the western world also has much much bigger epidemic of rape and sexual assault is frankly ridiculous. So get off of your fake moral high ground and maybe we can make the muslim world and muslim communities a more safer place for muslim women to be in. 

Edited by Guest Account Ali

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Western Islamic scholars and Islamic intellectuals have always appealed to me more than the eastern ones. Eg. Abdol Ali Bazargan (a very learned Persian intellectual), Dr. Ali Shariati, Nouman Ali Khan, Hassanain Rajabali, Hamza Yusuf etc. 

Although part of the reason could be because their talks are much more relevant to the issues we face in the westerns society, however I find that they are much more logical, rational and open-minded in their intellectual thinking. 

This thread also reminded me of what a friend of mine, who used to live in Iran was saying. He was saying that whenever a prominent islamic scholar came to their city, the young, religious men would hold a gathering, where they'd ask the scholar questions. At one of these programs, one of the men asked the scholar that if one makes a mistake in reciting the Tasbih of Fatima Al-Zahra (as) after the obligatory prayers (which is optional), should they then redo the whole obligatory prayers and the Tasbih, or jus the Tasbih itself. When my friend was describing this to me, I told him that, if the young men of Eastern countries are putting their focus and energy on worrying whether they should re-do a whole obligatory prayer because they had made a mistake in an optional Tasbih, then we shouldn't be surprised that tomorrow the western countries move on to living in Mars, while the Islamic world are busy worrying about Tasbihats. 

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11 hours ago, IbnSina said:

I think the difference between their crossroad and our crossroad today is that in our case there is no confusion regarding what is haram and what is halal.

Just like you said, a women leading jumah prayers, although it sounds perfectly fine in this modern way of looking at things, is clearly not allowed in the religion of Islam.

As far as women attending the jumah prayers more in the west, I believe it is because traditionally speaking, such as in the case of the east, most women are house wives and tied down more to the house and kids while in the west they are much more independent while also not building families as early as they used to. Is this better or worse? I dont know, I see many unmarried people in their late 20's in the west and that way of living is starting to become more popular in the east as well now. I dont know it follows our nature so well to stay unmarried and not start a family.

Its important to see the forces that are pushing for a more westernized version of Islam and to clearly point them out because there is an agenda rest assured.

I believe Islam in of itself is perfect in every sense possible and there is no need for adding or removing anything whatsoever. What we need to do is really adhere to our religion and put culture aside, that way we will inshaAllah be successful.

The christians wanted to adapt to every culture they went to and as such the religion they were told to follow became different from the religion they followed which in turn became different from the religion they are following today.

we will never agree more than on what you wrote above, specifically the bold.

Case in point: Allahu Akbar is a call to prayer - a call to Allah. Nowadays, recite Allahu Akbar loudly somewhere and people will think you are about to carry out a terrorist attack. Conditioning!!!

6 hours ago, SlaveOfAllah14 said:

Western Islamic scholars and Islamic intellectuals have always appealed to me more than the eastern ones. Eg. Abdol Ali Bazargan (a very learned Persian intellectual), Dr. Ali Shariati, Nouman Ali Khan, Hassanain Rajabali, Hamza Yusuf etc. 

Although part of the reason could be because their talks are much more relevant to the issues we face in the westerns society, however I find that they are much more logical, rational and open-minded in their intellectual thinking. 

This thread also reminded me of what a friend of mine, who used to live in Iran was saying. He was saying that whenever a prominent islamic scholar came to their city, the young, religious men would hold a gathering, where they'd ask the scholar questions. At one of these programs, one of the men asked the scholar that if one makes a mistake in reciting the Tasbih of Fatima Al-Zahra (as) after the obligatory prayers (which is optional), should they then redo the whole obligatory prayers and the Tasbih, or jus the Tasbih itself. When my friend was describing this to me, I told him that, if the young men of Eastern countries are putting their focus and energy on worrying whether they should re-do a whole obligatory prayer because they had made a mistake in an optional Tasbih, then we shouldn't be surprised that tomorrow the western countries move on to living in Mars, while the Islamic world are busy worrying about Tasbihats. 

Man has been to the moon while we argue over the birth of the moon every Eid.

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On 10/26/2017 at 4:23 AM, Guest Account Ali said:

Again, comparing apples to oranges. Give Afghanistan about maybe a half a century or more to stabilize from invasions by the soviets, the civil war, Taliban takeover, and the United states. Trust me if the US and Canada went through just one devastating invasion by a country wherein most of their country's civil and social infrastructure is decimated, the "morally and intellectually" superior west will devolve into wild animals and become the most extremist libertarians you can find. You quite literally cannot compare Canada to Afghanistan seeing as how they are two completely different environments. One is even today an active war zone and the other is a country that has not fought a war on its soil since the war of 1812.

 

Also bruh, rape occurs quite regularly in the west. In fact, rape does occur on average in MUCH higher numbers in stable western countries as compared to stable muslim countries even when the population is the same. For example, does your average Iranian, Saudi, Indonesian, Malaysian, etc. women have to fear being raped if she walked the streets of a major city at night in her native country? To some extent yes but to a lot less of a diminished extent than say if she was walking down the streets of Chicago, New York, etc. at night. Even on college campuses it occurs quite a decent amount as well. But I suppose if your rapist is blonde haired blue eyed it does not matter compared to a guy wearing a turban and is pashtun. Also, just google the horrific things that US soldiers did in Abu Ghraib. Yes, the US shut it down but the point is that such horrific things also have occurred in the middle of war zones in that country. With countless massacres that occurred during the US invasion of Iraq and countless sexual crimes that soldiers did. But, I guess if your rapist has camo on he is not as guilty as a guy with a turban on...

 

Also seriously, Syria? Now I know you just love to commit fallacies in logical thinking and just run with knee jerk reactions. Why in the absolute heck would you compare Syria to Canada or any stable western country? In fact, it would be better to compare Syria to say Brazil. One country is militarily powerful and has a good economy but has horrible sexual and criminal violence and is worse off than Syria in that regard. Even if a woman was captured by The Taliban she would be less likely to be raped by them than say if she decided to walk down the streets of the more poorer parts of Sao Paulo. Heck, if one is to talk about which part of the world has treated women in the most horrible way in terms of sexual violence then look no further than South America. 

 

In fact, why don't you actually compare stable muslim countries with that of stable western countries. Afghanistan according to its HDI score is not qualified. Since this is a shia website why don't you say compare the amount of danger an Iranian woman would face in terms of sexual assault if she was in Tehran with the modesty police on full lookout vs say the danger a muslim woman would face in New York City? Also to equalize let us assume both are in the commercial districts of their cities. Also, let us compare threat level in daytime vs nighttime. Also let us normalize this by saying that the comparison time would be when the police in the commercial district of New York City are the most active and when the modesty police in the commercial district in Tehran are also the most active. Also let us assume that both the Modesty police and the New York city police do not commit violence against the muslim woman in question here. Yes, I know the modesty police and its torture sessions but at the same time I believe the supreme leader of Iran and the Iranian President criticised this and said the modesty police should only issue fines and not resort to torture and kidnapping. 

 

Again, don't think I am deflecting from the sexual crimes done in the muslim world. Yes, muslims have been and even now are trying to curb the amount of sexual crime in the muslim world. However, to say such blatantly inundated things and not pretend the western world also has much much bigger epidemic of rape and sexual assault is frankly ridiculous. So get off of your fake moral high ground and maybe we can make the muslim world and muslim communities a more safer place for muslim women to be in. 

if Earth was situated in place of Venus, it would not have been liveable. Should we claim that make Venus = Earth ? My focus is not about if, its about is.

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On 26/10/2017 at 4:23 AM, Guest Account Ali said:

Also bruh, rape occurs quite regularly in the west. In fact, rape does occur on average in MUCH higher numbers in stable western countries as compared to stable muslim countries even when the population is the same. For example, does your average Iranian, Saudi, Indonesian, Malaysian, etc. women have to fear being raped if she walked the streets of a major city at night in her native country? To some extent yes but to a lot less of a diminished extent than say if she was walking down the streets of Chicago, New York, etc. at night. Even on college campuses it occurs quite a decent amount as well. But I suppose if your rapist is blonde haired blue eyed it does not matter compared to a guy wearing a turban and is pashtun. Also, just google the horrific things that US soldiers did in Abu Ghraib. Yes, the US shut it down but the point is that such horrific things also have occurred in the middle of war zones in that country. With countless massacres that occurred during the US invasion of Iraq and countless sexual crimes that soldiers did. But, I guess if your rapist has camo on he is not as guilty as a guy with a turban on...

What are you talking about dude.  You cannot look at official rape and sexual assaults statistics to conclude there are more rapes per capita in Canada than say Pakistan. Most rapes go unreported in those societies because there is no recourse, only shame and statistics aren't even kept.

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7 hours ago, King said:

What are you talking about dude.  You cannot look at official rape and sexual assaults statistics to conclude there are more rapes per capita in Canada than say Pakistan. Most rapes go unreported in those societies because there is no recourse, only shame and statistics aren't even kept.

Well it is a good thing I never said Canada has more rape than Pakistan, you did so keep your knee jerk reactions to yourself and read my words more carefully. I said the western world does have an epidemic of violent and drug induced rape (as in physical unconsentual sex) on their hands, as even admitted by western Journalists. Shall I cite them for you?

 

Also, at the same time these stats are not worthless and give a lot of information. For God's sake even government organizations and universities use these stats to create programs that help protect women. So, they are vastly useful. Especially when the studies I can cite actually control for things like unreported rapes. 

 

Also, if you read the rest of my post CAREFULLY, I said how sexual assault does occur in the Muslim world much more than we would like to think (Ironically it has a high rate of occurance in secular Muslim countries. Just some food for thought for those of you insisting Muslim countries be partially or holistically secula) but in order to help protect Muslim women, comparing east vs West is inundated and ridicoulus. So people need to get the heck off of their moral high ground so we can focus on ISLAMIC solutions to mitigate sexual assault. Which ironically Pakistan claims to be but of course the reality is that Pakistan is way more secular than it is Islamic. 

 

Again, read the words someone types more carefully and don't jump to knee-jerk reactions. Lest we make errors in logical thinking and commit every logical fallacy in the book. 

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9 hours ago, Wahdat said:

if Earth was situated in place of Venus, it would not have been liveable. Should we claim that make Venus = Earth ? My focus is not about if, its about is.

Boi, did you even bother to take an introduction to philosophy course? If you did you would know how that argument is as invalid and unsound as they come. So nice try with the sophistry. But try again.

Also, we are talking about politics. That means you CANNOT talk about terrorism without foreign interventionism and occupation and other contributing factors. So get down from that ivory tower of yours. You literally CANNOT talk about the state of Afghanistan without talking about how the US bombed the country into oblivion, how the Soviets and the communist government of Afganistan were the causing factor in the civil war in the country, how the foreign meddling of Pakistan only exacerbated issues in the country. Every action has a consequence, and every action that leads to a consequence has an undivorcable context. Understand this carefully if you truly want to help Afghani's and Afghanistan in general. 

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3 hours ago, حسين said:

Salam, 

Before I reverted, a lot of my Muslim friends in the U.K. used to do this.

A lot of people doing it doesn't mean it's acceptable.

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Many ppl doing it here as well, never got it. It seems it depends on families though. I honestly believe there is no need for that considering the halal food you can buy anywhere, as well as restaurants offering vegan friendly menus.

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On Monday, October 30, 2017 at 10:53 AM, حسين said:

Salam, 

Before I reverted, a lot of my Muslim friends in the U.K. used to do this.

Bismehe Ta3ala,

Assalam Alikum 

Brother Hussain,

How did you revert, when you were born in a muslim family?  Do you mean when you decided to commit to the religion, instead of muslim by name only?

M3 Salamah, FE AMIN Allah 

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15 hours ago, Laayla said:

Bismehe Ta3ala,

Assalam Alikum 

Brother Hussain,

How did you revert, when you were born in a muslim family?  Do you mean when you decided to commit to the religion, instead of muslim by name only?

M3 Salamah, FE AMIN Allah 

Salam,

I was born to a Muslim mother and a Muslim father, however my father left us when I was 4, and when I grew to the age of 16. I became very 'depressed' because I felt life was unfair so I decided religion didn't make sense to me. 

By the age of 17, I didn't have a religion by name but I did believe in something, a creator. At 22 years old, so many signs and incidents had happened which left me unable to turn away from the truth. That Allah is one and Islam is the only real religion. However, I was still living a bad life so I didn't go back straight away, I waited to come to Lebanon so my mother could guide me a bit more.  

4 Months ago I became a Muslim by name again, however, I have been reading and learning about it for 8 months properly now. 

Being a western Islam back then, made me lose understanding of the religion, since culture got in the way. 

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Bismehe Ta3ala,

Assalam Alikum Brother Hussain,

God bless your mother, I'm sure it was her duas that helped you find your way back again.  

The bad life you were living was it because you were rebelling or upset with not having a proper father?

Have you seen the Reborn YT channel on Ahulbayt tv?  I watch convert stories often, Sub7an'Allah everyone goes through hardship and then through the pain Allah is the only source to comfort the heart.

Can you relate to what she is saying?

M3 Salamah, FE AMIN Allah 

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