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just a muslim

Question for Shia brothers

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i have a few questions and hope some knowledgeable brother can answer these.

1. can you explain the shia usul e hadith? in brief for now. especially how you guys check the sanad and matn and reject whatever goes against the quran.

2. how do you know the quran that we have today is the same quran that was revealed to the prophet pbuh? is it just a belief, like christians believe the bible is the true word of god that jesus preached or whatever. or do you have proof that the quran today is the same quran 1438 years ago. and jbtw, this has nothing to do with tahreef, in case anyone goes there. i am coming from a different point of view. 

just these two for now. a lot more to follow inshaAllah.

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1 hour ago, just a muslim said:

i have a few questions and hope some knowledgeable brother can answer these.

1. can you explain the shia usul e hadith? in brief for now. especially how you guys check the sanad and matn and reject whatever goes against the quran.

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59 minutes ago, just a muslim said:

i have a few questions and hope some knowledgeable brother can answer these.

1. can you explain the shia usul e hadith? in brief for now. especially how you guys check the sanad and matn and reject whatever goes against the quran.

2. how do you know the quran that we have today is the same quran that was revealed to the prophet pbuh? is it just a belief, like christians believe the bible is the true word of god that jesus preached or whatever. or do you have proof that the quran today is the same quran 1438 years ago. and jbtw, this has nothing to do with tahreef, in case anyone goes there. i am coming from a different point of view. 

just these two for now. a lot more to follow inshaAllah.

Salaam Alaykum

From the tune of your question I see that you are looking for truth. Mashaallah

1. In Iran there are religious schools that we call them حوزه علمیه. People who go to those schools ONLY study religion. To be sure that a Hadith is true, there are several sciences in حوزه علمیه. For example, they study علم رجال and علم حدیث. They study WHOLE people who narrated a Hadith from the person who heard the Hadith from the prophet's mouth up to now. Whole people who narrated Hadith. They also read Sunni books to have knowledge in that area too. So as you can see, it's very complicated and difficult. That's the reason you see almost all Mojtahed people are over 40-50 years old because they need to study. Shiite has four books:

من لایحضره الفقیه

الکافی

الاستبصار فی ما اختلف من الاخبار

تهذیب الاحکام

2. Thanks for asking this question. My knowledge in this area is limited, but there is a Quran written by Imam Reza in Astan Quds Razavi museum, Mashhad, Iran. It's not the whole Quran and it's written in Koufi language. Maybe it can help. If there is any change in Quran, there must be inconsistency in it, but this is not a scientific approach. I search more on this and if I could something, I will share.

Edited by AmirAlmuminin Lover

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18 minutes ago, AmirAlmuminin Lover said:

Salaam Alaykum

From the tune of your question I see that you are looking for truth. Mashaallah

1. In Iran there are religious schools that we call them حوزه علمیه. People who go to those schools ONLY study religion. To be sure that a Hadith is true, there are several sciences in حوزه علمیه. For example, they study علم رجال and علم حدیث. They study WHOLE people who narrated a Hadith from the person who heard the Hadith from the prophet's mouth up to now. Whole people who narrated Hadith. They also read Sunni books to have knowledge in that area too. So as you can see, it's very complicated and difficult. That's the reason you see almost all Mojtahed people are over 40-50 years old because they need to study. Shiite has four books:

من لایحضره الفقیه

الکافی

الاستبصار فی ما اختلف من الاخبار

تهذیب الاحکام

2. Thanks for asking this question. My knowledge in this area is limited, but there is a Quran written by Imam Reza in Astan Quds Razavi museum, Mashhad, Iran. It's not the whole Quran and it's written in Koufi language. Maybe it can help. If there is any change in Quran, there must be inconsistency in it, but this is not a scientific approach. I search more on this and if I could something, I will share.

salam.

1. i basically want to know whether the shias do matn criticism or not. i heard a shia friend of mine say that imam jafar said if any saying of ours contradicts the quran, throw in on the wall. is this true? do the shia compare ahadith to the quran before authenticating them?

2. yeah we cant take a circular reasoning for this. will see if others have some knowledge about this.

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10 minutes ago, just a muslim said:

salam.

1. i basically want to know whether the shias do matn criticism or not. i heard a shia friend of mine say that imam jafar said if any saying of ours contradicts the quran, throw in on the wall. is this true? do the shia compare ahadith to the quran before authenticating them?

2. yeah we cant take a circular reasoning for this. will see if others have some knowledge about this.

1. That is true. Any Hadith must be according to Quran. They use Quran to authenticate Hadith, but Quran interpretation is a deep science that needs people like Allameh Tabatabayi to do that.

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9 minutes ago, AmirAlmuminin Lover said:

1. That is true. Any Hadith must be according to Quran. They use Quran to authenticate Hadith, but Quran interpretation is a deep science that needs people like Allameh Tabatabayi to do that.

i dont understand this. if the sanad is authentic, shouldnt the matn be authentic automatically? or is it possible that a sahih sanad can give a wrong matn?

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2 hours ago, just a muslim said:

i have a few questions and hope some knowledgeable brother can answer these.

1. can you explain the shia usul e hadith? in brief for now. especially how you guys check the sanad and matn and reject whatever goes against the quran.

2. how do you know the quran that we have today is the same quran that was revealed to the prophet pbuh? is it just a belief, like christians believe the bible is the true word of god that jesus preached or whatever. or do you have proof that the quran today is the same quran 1438 years ago. and jbtw, this has nothing to do with tahreef, in case anyone goes there. i am coming from a different point of view. 

just these two for now. a lot more to follow inshaAllah.

1-I know Sunni scholars who teach Twelver methodologies

 

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1 hour ago, just a muslim said:

1. i basically want to know whether the shias do matn criticism or not. i heard a shia friend of mine say that imam jafar said if any saying of ours contradicts the quran, throw in on the wall. is this true? do the shia compare ahadith to the quran before authenticating them?

This is true to all madhabs my friend. It is based on a prophetic tradition who says - "Soon after I pass away the narrations concerning to me will multiply like the previous prophets before me, so whatever agree with the Qur'an take it, what don agree throw away.

But I don't know what happened today most Muslims do not practice this methodology. Those who do are upon the Haqq no doubt, be it Sunni or Shia.

Imam Shafi'i based a view that if the verses of the Qur'an can abrogate themselves then surely the Qur'an can abrogate hadiths if it contradicts. Sadly Sunnis closed the door of Ijtihad for years and we are only catching up now. Also with the rise of Salafism it have been a great toil on the minds if the Muslims, we also have extremists Sufi rising as response. Both are wrong.

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17 minutes ago, SunniBrother said:

1-I know Sunni scholars who teach Twelver methodologies

 

bro i am not saying who is right and who is wrong. i am trying to understand and confirm from a shia brother. my response will only come after confirmation. 

11 minutes ago, SunniBrother said:

This is true to all madhabs my friend. It is based on a prophetic tradition who says - "Soon after I pass away the narrations concerning to me will multiply like the previous prophets before me, so whatever agree with the Qur'an take it, what don agree throw away.

But I don't know what happened today most Muslims do not practice this methodology. Those who do are upon the Haqq no doubt, be it Sunni or Shia.

Imam Shafi'i based a view that if the verses of the Qur'an can abrogate themselves then surely the Qur'an can abrogate hadiths if it contradicts. Sadly Sunnis closed the door of Ijtihad for years and we are only catching up now. Also with the rise of Salafism it have been a great toil on the minds if the Muslims, we also have extremists Sufi rising as response. Both are wrong.

again, i am not saying who is right and who is wrong. i am just trying to understand first. 

the hadith you quoted is not authentic if i recall correctly.

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2 hours ago, just a muslim said:

so, for a hadith to be authentic, all the narrators have to be imami shi'i and trustworthy, am i correct? muwathaq can include non shias as well. but the best kind simply has to have imami trustworthy shias only. correct?

Inshallah a more knowledgable person like @Qa'im can explain it to you better.

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4 hours ago, just a muslim said:

2. how do you know the quran that we have today is the same quran that was revealed to the prophet pbuh? is it just a belief, like christians believe the bible is the true word of god that jesus preached or whatever. or do you have proof that the quran today is the same quran 1438 years ago. and jbtw, this has nothing to do with tahreef, in case anyone goes there. i am coming from a different point of view. 

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-33436021

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/worlds-oldest-koran-discovered-in-birmingham-this-really-will-rejoice-muslim-hearts-10408743.html

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2 hours ago, M.IB said:

ive read these before. these and the sana'a scrolls are not entire qurans. only parts of them. very little. only a few pages at max. and some of them have differences in them from today's mushaf. which is why it is said that these manuscripts were among those which were "thrown" away due to mistakes.

anyway, point being, these arent the entire quran. only small parts.

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1 hour ago, SunniBrother said:

It's a Mutawwatir hadith on all sects. You sure is not authentic? The shia have, the Ibadis have and the Sunnis have.

the one about throwing a hadith if you find it contradictory to quran. give me a reference(hadith number and book) and i'll get you the scholarly view about the authenticity of that hadith inshaAllah

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On Thursday, September 21, 2017 at 9:16 AM, just a muslim said:

salam.

1. i basically want to know whether the shias do matn criticism or not. i heard a shia friend of mine say that imam jafar said if any saying of ours contradicts the quran, throw in on the wall. is this true? do the shia compare ahadith to the quran before authenticating them?

2. yeah we cant take a circular reasoning for this. will see if others have some knowledge about this.

Any hadith going against Quran becomes automatically unauthentic. 

Because Ahadith can't go against Quran. 

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On Thursday, September 21, 2017 at 9:16 AM, just a muslim said:

salam.

1. i basically want to know whether the shias do matn criticism or not. i heard a shia friend of mine say that imam jafar said if any saying of ours contradicts the quran, throw in on the wall. is this true? do the shia compare ahadith to the quran before authenticating them?

2. yeah we cant take a circular reasoning for this. will see if others have some knowledge about this.

Any hadith going against Quran becomes automatically unauthentic. 

Because Ahadith can't go against Quran. 

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5 minutes ago, islam25 said:

Any hadith going against Quran becomes automatically unauthentic. 

Because Ahadith can't go against Quran. 

We do condemns jews for using the Talmud and condemn christians for their gospels which were nothing more but opinions and eye-witness testimonies of third-parties yet consider our own ahaadith collections to be sacred?

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9 minutes ago, islam25 said:

Any hadith going against Quran becomes automatically unauthentic. 

Because Ahadith can't go against Quran. 

but the post above said that for a hadith to be authentic, it has to has trustworthy shia narrators. are you saying that after checking all narrators, you also check the text of the hadith against the quran?

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On 9/21/2017 at 7:26 AM, just a muslim said:

2. how do you know the quran that we have today is the same quran that was revealed to the prophet pbuh? is it just a belief, like christians believe the bible is the true word of god that jesus preached or whatever. or do you have proof that the quran today is the same quran 1438 years ago. and jbtw, this has nothing to do with tahreef, in case anyone goes there. i am coming from a different point of view. 

As a muslim do you believe the words of quran as mentioned below?

 Allah says in the Qur’an:

إِنَّا نَحْنُ نَزَّلْنَا الذِّكْرَ وَإِنَّا لَهُ لَحَافِظُونَ

"Surely, We have sent down the reminder, and We will most surely be its guardian". (Qur’an, 15:9)

This ayah adequately proves that the Qur’an has been guar­ded from all tampering, and that the profane hands shall have no wily access to it.

The following link may be helpful for your information:

http://kaheel7.com/eng/index.php/secrets-of-quran-a-sunnah/418-the-miracle-of-guarding-the-quran-

Wasalam

Edited by skyweb1987

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On 9/20/2017 at 10:26 PM, just a muslim said:

2. how do you know the quran that we have today is the same quran that was revealed to the prophet pbuh? is it just a belief, like christians believe the bible is the true word of god that jesus preached or whatever. or do you have proof that the quran today is the same quran 1438 years ago. and jbtw, this has nothing to do with tahreef, in case anyone goes there. i am coming from a different point of view.

It is not through belief but it is through iman (which is a light that God casts into the heart of whosoever He will) that we come to acknowledge that the Quran is the eternal word of God manifested on the relative/human plane through language.  

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1 hour ago, just a muslim said:

but the post above said that for a hadith to be authentic, it has to has trustworthy shia narrators. are you saying that after checking all narrators, you also check the text of the hadith against the quran?

But I have seen in shia books giving reference from sunni sources. 

So what needed is ones hadith proves to be authentic it doesn't matter whether he shia or sunni. 

 

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1 hour ago, skyweb1987 said:

As a muslim do you believe the words of quran as mentioned below?

 Allah says in the Qur’an:

إِنَّا نَحْنُ نَزَّلْنَا الذِّكْرَ وَإِنَّا لَهُ لَحَافِظُونَ

"Surely, We have sent down the reminder, and We will most surely be its guardian". (Qur’an, 15:9)

This ayah adequately proves that the Qur’an has been guar­ded from all tampering, and that the profane hands shall have no wily access to it.

The following link may be helpful for your information:

http://kaheel7.com/eng/index.php/secrets-of-quran-a-sunnah/418-the-miracle-of-guarding-the-quran-

Wasalam

the link you gave is a sunni narrative. i want the shi'i narrative. and no. they are not the same. sunni narrative uses sunni sources which the shi'i may or may not accept. 

as for 15:9, then this is a circular argument. 

how do you know this verse was revealed by Allah? this verse, at the very least, could be a fabrication, hypothetically speaking. it is a circular argument as well. if i have to prove that i am honest, my saying that i am honest wont prove that i am honest.

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1 hour ago, eThErEaL said:

It is not through belief but it is through iman (which is a light that God casts into the heart of whosoever He will) that we come to acknowledge that the Quran is the eternal word of God manifested on the relative/human plane through language.  

do you mean to say that there is no difference between your belief in quran and a christians belief in the bible? or the jew's belief in the torah?

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1 minute ago, just a muslim said:

do you mean to say that there is no difference between your belief in quran and a christians belief in the bible? or the jew's belief in the torah?

So this is what I said:

 

Quote

It is not through belief

 

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5 minutes ago, IbnMariam said:

Really? Interesting to hear. Who are they and which twelver scholars do they take ideas from/what are those ideas?

do not listen to him. from what i have seen, this guy loves to make claims but fails to back them up. and is usually incorrect about them.

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8 minutes ago, just a muslim said:

lol bro belief and imam are the same thing. 

Does the Quran say that the English word "belief" and the Arabic word "iman" are synonymous?  Does the Prophet of Islam (S) say that?

Does the English dictionary define belief in the following way:  "it is a light that God casts into the heart of whomsoever He wills"?

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27 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

Does the Quran say that the English word "belief" and the Arabic word "iman" are synonymous?  Does the Prophet of Islam (S) say that?

Does the English dictionary define belief in the following way:  "it is a light that God casts into the heart of whomsoever He wills"?

yes. as a matter of fact, the arabic dictionary says iman means belief.

hans wehr. al qaamoos al waheed. misbah ul lughat. just a few dictionaries that mention iman as belief. 

Edited by just a muslim

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24 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

Does the Quran say that the English word "belief" and the Arabic word "iman" are synonymous?  Does the Prophet of Islam (S) say that?

Does the English dictionary define belief in the following way:  "it is a light that God casts into the heart of whomsoever He wills"?

which arabic dictionary defines iman as "a light that God casts into the heart of whomsoever He wills?"

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49 minutes ago, just a muslim said:

as for 15:9, then this is a circular argument. 

how do you know this verse was revealed by Allah? this verse, at the very least, could be a fabrication, hypothetically speaking. it is a circular argument as well. if i have to prove that i am honest, my saying that i am honest wont prove that i am honest.

I believe in Quran thats present form ore than 1400 years without any change and this argument remains inside Quran. 

How  do you doubt about the verse of quran?

 If you doubt these verses then how are you Muslim? as per your ID "Just a muslim"

These are contradictory statements.. Are not these?

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20 minutes ago, skyweb1987 said:

I believe in Quran thats present form ore than 1400 years without any change and this argument remains inside Quran. 

How  do you doubt about the verse of quran?

 If you doubt these verses then how are you Muslim? as per your ID "Just a muslim"

These are contradictory statements.. Are not these?

i do not doubt any singe letter of the quran. my BELIEF is that the quran is from Allah. and i have flawless reasons/evidence to believe that the quran we have today is the same as it was at the time of prophet pbuh.

i am asking these questions from a non muslim's perspective. 

if a christian comes to you and says: "since you claim the bible was changed, how do you know the quran wasnt changed? that it is the same as the time of muhammad pbu?" you cant say to him that you "believe" it is from God. because he also believes the bible is from God. then that would mean you are essentially as correct in your belief as he is in his belief. THAT does not make islam true. 

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