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In the Name of God بسم الله

should i do Muta?

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@starlight I thought you were not going to respond to this thread?

5 hours ago, starlight said:

Islam allows it.Our Masoomeen (as) practised it.Why is polygamy so much of a problem now that someone even suggesting it starts to get insulted?  

What if the sister @MariyahLaleh 's husband's first wife had reacted as all of you are reacting now? Where would she be with her five little kids? 

It is not mutah that is the problem but the way how OP uses it, that's we are opposed to and been saying all this time. I think OP should forget about mutah, be a man and help his wife. I see nothing but trouble if he takes a second wife in mutah.

His excuses and reasons are pathetic and disturbing, a man his age should have more self-restraint. Our Masoomeen (as) did practice mutah but I doubt they did because their wives got fat, astaghfirillah.

Edited by Gaius I. Caesar
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18 hours ago, MariyahLaleh said:

Upi

I really do not think this is a very kind statement. I lived in a dual partnership with the first wife for years with my current husband. She left us to pursue her conversion to Christianity. Many of the women who have posted in this subject have lived in a western society and are not familiar with the more than one wife practice. Many men in a western society cannot afford to support a second or third wife. Evidently you missed that detail. On your behalf, I would change the words dumb or selfish to ignorant. No wise women amongst the shia? I know of many but because of the separation of the genders you as a man shouldn't know of any. And I am grateful for the kind wife that welcomed me an my five orphan children children when my first husband was murdered. As they stated when I was a sunni, Allah knows best.

You are being very gentle. The post to which you replied, I would characterise it as complete and total nonsense and essentially a rant of a male chauvinist under a false sense of empathy for women according to which the only way men can "help" women is by agreeing to share their bed. 

if I were a woman I'd find it deeply offensive to be compared to Yazid just because his only solution for my "well-being" is not something I'm ready to sign up to. I'd also find it ironic that he is unwilling to ask the opinions of the very women whose well-being he is so concerned about.

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2 hours ago, rkazmi33 said:

@starlight! I am really disappointed in you. You have been in an abusive relationship, and you know very well our culture. You don't need to see documented proofs like a judge and you can see all the signs of abuse, still you fail to show any empathy for his wife. I don't have a problem with him doing mutah, I have a problem with his dishonesty. He is not doing justice to his wife and there's no way he will do justice with his wife after bringing more women in the relationship. He clearly thinks she is inferior to him, but he doesn't want to leave her just because she is an ego boost for him. There are so many relationships in our culture like this, where one spouse is superior to other and that spouse becomes a saint among people. While he/she constantly abuses the other partner, but still he/she always receives complements and sympathy from people. If you don't like your spouse, find someone you like and leave the poor person alone. But men are right when they say that a woman is the biggest enemy of another woman. If the abused women support abusers like this and don't show any support or empathy to other abused women, what can you expect from other people? This cycle and this sick culture will always remain like this. In jungle full of animals, the animals at the bottom of food pyramid attack each other. It's the same with women, they take abuse from men and then they attack each other. I can understand, you live in that culture and you are at the bottom of food chain. You can only survive by making sure other women remain in abusive relationships. A husband is not responsible for making his wife, but he is responsible for not abusing her in any way. No one should be happy with abuse. 

This is totally unnecessary and uncalled for. You have a right to your opinion but please don't insult other members for not having an opinion to your liking. 

You've also made serious accusations in your post against starlight, such as condoning abuse and being an enemy of women and also shamed her for her bad experiences. This is extremely rude and I believe you should apologise to the sister.

Attack the argument, not the person. This is basic etiquette of any civilised discussion.

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4 hours ago, starlight said:

When did I say that?  Now I am really doubting your comprehension skills.lol. 

My point was that some persons would not be happy even with the best of humans (Masomeen as) but looks like that's a difficult point for you to grasp.

[edit]since you implied that it's a husband's job to keep wives 100% happy so if there is anyone who is saying that Prophet (saw) wasn't a good enough husband its you because Ayesha wasn't happy with him(saw)

Besides all the unmarried brothers and sisters sprinkling their very intelligent opinions on a subject / situation they have yet to experience i.e. marriage, the highlighted text above is another example of why I and others keep visiting SC. 

All those Brs/Sis active in interfaith discussions with our Sunni brothers, please take a note.

Sorry for divergence, "unmarried" Bros and Sis, please carry on explaining marriage to the rest of us -:)

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20 hours ago, MariyahLaleh said:

Upi

I really do not think this is a very kind statement. I lived in a dual partnership with the first wife for years with my current husband. She left us to pursue her conversion to Christianity. Many of the women who have posted in this subject have lived in a western society and are not familiar with the more than one wife practice. Many men in a western society cannot afford to support a second or third wife. Evidently you missed that detail. On your behalf, I would change the words dumb or selfish to ignorant. No wise women amongst the shia? I know of many but because of the separation of the genders you as a man shouldn't know of any. And I am grateful for the kind wife that welcomed me an my five orphan children children when my first husband was murdered. As they stated when I was a sunni, Allah knows best.

Dear sister:

My respects to you for rephrasing my words. Yes indeed for some the kinder verbiage is sufficient (Luqman's son), for others, words mixed with some admonition do wonders (Allah swt addressing to the nation of Yunus AS and removing His adhab for them), and for some the harshest words do the magic (Imam Hussain AS khutbas on the day of Ashoor). 

The bottom line is, average Muslim man needs to decouple the opinion of his wife from his, when it comes to do what Br. OP wants to do (acting upon one of the Sunnah of the Prophet S).

I humbly still stick to this; no matter how great a Shia one professes to be, if one's opinions resemble the words of Hazrat Umer, then at least for that subject, that person is the Shia of Umer but definitely not the Shia of Ali AS.

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3 hours ago, rkazmi33 said:

@starlight! I am really disappointed in you. You have been in an abusive relationship, and you know very well our culture...

Dear sister @rkazmi33  - "a momin is (s)he from whose hands and tongues other Momin's are safe". 

May Allah swt ease your pain and removes from your heart the wounds which cause you to remain nagative about certain very beautiful things in life (Pakistani shia men included).

cheers!!

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9 minutes ago, Irfani313 said:

I humbly still stick to this; no matter how great a Shia one professes to be, if one's opinions resemble the words of Hazrat Umer, then at least for that subject, that person is the Shia of Umer but definitely not the Shia of Ali AS.

It's not mutah itself that people have a problem with - it's the OP's shallow reason for it. 

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 @rkazmi33 @Islandsandmirrors @Ron_Burgundy @Muslim96

And @molaayi_from_lahore

Here are two more angles to it - (to the chagrin of all those still mad at us yay sayers) -

1. If you think you are such a great husband that your one wife is absolutely happy with you (it is important in Islam to know your defects but also keep high opinion of yourself), then you should definitely spread the blessings. 

Why to go for the Sunnah of the Prophet only when you had a bad first experience.. just sayng'

 2. In Islam's natural order, if a man is good, many women would approach him, shunning the bad, irresponsible, and oppressive men. In the final equation, most corrupt men will remain unmarried and most Godly men will be married and keeping many good women happy (look at the lives of the good wives of the Prophets etc).

In today's scenario, it will be less compromise marriages between good women and highschool dropout men. Sort of what happens in the West on dating scene. Jibes with the Hadith that "in the end times, 50 women will be proposing to each of the man among the ansaar of Imam". 

Edited by Irfani313
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22 minutes ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

It's not mutah itself that people have a problem with - it's the OP's shallow reason for it. 

@Islandsandmirrors I don't wanna debate dear sister but saving yourself from the potential of a major sin is not shallow to me. I personally think given the scenario OP described, it's wajib for him to marry someone he may get attracted to (with all the Shari' fulfillment ofcourse). 

Edited by Irfani313
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45 minutes ago, Irfani313 said:

In Islam's natural order, if a man is good, many women would approach him, shunning the bad, irresponsible, and oppressive men. In the final equation, most corrupt men will remain unmarried and most Godly men will be married and keeping many good women happy (look at the lives of the good wives of the Prophets etc).

Sure that would be ideal. Unfortunately that's not how things really happen. Sadly, the bad men lie and both good and bad women are fooled by them. 

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17 minutes ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

This is BS. 

Opressive men get married every day. 

It's because we are not living in Islam's natural order. Hence preparing the path for the Savior AS for gander scale.

For our individual selves, we could apply the natural order of our beautiful deen right at this moment if we chose to!!

 

Edited by Irfani313
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2 hours ago, Marbles said:

This is totally unnecessary and uncalled for. You have a right to your opinion but please don't insult other members for not having an opinion to your liking. 

You've also made serious accusations in your post against starlight, such as condoning abuse and being an enemy of women and also shamed her for her bad experiences. This is extremely rude and I believe you should apologise to the sister.

Attack the argument, not the person. This is basic etiquette of any civilised discussion.

I apologize to sister starlight. I did become rude because I was frustrated. She has been really kind to me, supported me when I was going through a hard time. Actions speak louder than words and her actions speak a completely different language than her words, that's why I said I am disappointed. I don't understand when did I shame her for her bad experience. If the sentence "you were in an abusive marriage, so I expect you to show more empathy" is considered shaming: I fail to understand how is this shaming. 

I always get the similar response from desi women about any woman going through abuse, and I don't understand this because western women have completely different response (the kind of response you would expect from a woman) which is apparent in this thread. 

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On 9/2/2017 at 6:52 AM, molaayi_from_lahore said:

I am 31, physically fit and healthy person (hint:6 packs), athletic body and , alhmadulillah a high above-average income. I am married for last 5 years. I want to do Muta for the below reasons:

1- very high sex drive

2- my wife has become very fat. at the time of our marriage she was 46 kilograms and now she is 88 KG. imagine my situation... the attraction is ENDED totally

3- My wife has some psychological issues as well due to which there are a lot of troubles.

4- many pretty girls keep proposing me and flirting with me due to my good looks and a good social status.

If i do Muta with someone and we feel compatible enough for each other I can convert it into a permanent one.

what are your thoughts and suggestions for me. Please do not recommend fasting. I know that already.

There are two types of people. Those who do mutah and those who have fantasy about doing muta and write about it.

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On 9/9/2017 at 8:58 PM, ShiaChat Mod said:

I never heard of a new creation after us humans. Sounds strange. If marriage is the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad SA, why would a new creation be without opposite gender?

When Imam Ali (as) was asked who was before Adam he said "Adam", remember that one? What makes you think there will be no creation after or other than us humans? In fact there are plenty of hadiths on that.

Anyway I thought its a good idea. No genders next time. Imagine how better off and luckier those folks will be. Babies dropping from the sky or flown in by storkes or how ever, God has ways. Imagine a world without gender inequality. No feminism because no need. No nagging the husband. No marriage and sex problems. Can you imagine?

The hadith(s) are there but I can't be bothered enough to find them and post them in this thread. In fact I feel I should not have brought it up. So nevermind.

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7 hours ago, Ron_Burgundy said:

You don't know paki culture man.. wife are like slaves... of course she won't get a time for herself. Aren't we

So,is your wife a slave?

My mother wasn't, my cousins and sister's in law aren't, my friends aren't,my co workers and the wives of male co workers aren't. 

8 hours ago, Ron_Burgundy said:

You need your first wife's permission to have 2nd wife.

He doesn't,not in Islam. 

And I will just ignore the comment where you try to resolve the issue by beating the other person up. 

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57 minutes ago, starlight said:

Can we say the same about his wife too? 

But why would anyone say that? Are you saying that by a wife being overweight is not pleasing her husband?

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1 hour ago, starlight said:

So,is your wife a slave?

My mother wasn't, my cousins and sister's in law aren't, my friends aren't,my co workers and the wives of male co workers aren't. 

He doesn't,not in Islam. 

And I will just ignore the comment where you try to resolve the issue by beating the other person up. 

He does need to seek the first wife's permission. It is from Islam. Out of respect and consideration for the first wife, Islamically, he has to.

Edited by Islandsandmirrors
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4 hours ago, rkazmi33 said:

Actions speak louder than words and her actions speak a completely different language than her words, that's why I said I am disappointed. I don't understand when did I shame her for her bad experience. If the sentence "you were in an abusive marriage, so I expect you to show more empathy" is considered shaming: I fail to understand how is this shaming. 

You haven't seen my actions, have you? 

I am the one who said it first that he should talk about it to his wife. I told him more than once to take her to a doctor. I told him to get a good maid and said it was unreasonable of him to expect his wife to do all the cooking.

And none of you have replied to what I asked :

1.What if the wife of sister mariyah laleh's  husband had been acting the way you and the others are? 

2.What would be a good reason enough reason in your eyes for a man to take on a second wife? 

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19 minutes ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

I am sure that is incorrect, sis.

I agree with you. 

A man, islamically, needs to seek permission of the first wife. 

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8 hours ago, notme said:

Mutah by an already married man is halal as long as temporary wife/wives are Muslim. 

Or are among the People of the Book.

The girl (or woman) in question can be a Muslim, Jew or Christian.

Muta with a virgin is seen poorly (makruh).

If I was an Ayatullah, I would declare muta with a virgin or with any vulnerable woman not makruh but haram.

But alas! I am not among the high and the mighty.     

But when is this thread going to die?

I thought it had been successfully interned and so I have already read Namaz-e-Wahshat

10 hours ago, rkazmi33 said:

 I have a problem with his dishonesty. 

.I have a problem with such discussions taking place in the presence of our sisters.

I am sure that none of the males here would like someone broaching this subject in presence of their sisters. 

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24 minutes ago, starlight said:

1.What is the wife of sister mariyah laleh's  husband had been acting the way you and the others are? 

 1. I think that is irrelevant to the subject, clearly they must have discussed it before the husband met sister Mariyah. The OP would rather do it without telling the wife, instead of facing the issue like a real man.

24 minutes ago, starlight said:

2.What would be a good reason enough reason in your eyes for a man to take on a second wife? 

 2. If the wife was incapacitated and couldn't take care of the house and husband like she used to. Or if the husband decides to financially support the second woman and the wife agrees. These reasons are more logical than getting a second wife because the first wife is fat.

P.S. In the first scenario, the man would be better off with a maid.

Edited by Gaius I. Caesar
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So there is the Islamic thing to do and there is the right thing to do...sometimes they are different. 

Islamically, I can marry 4 women each day, have relations with them, divorce them and repeat the next day. So in a year, I could marry 1,460 women or more ( in case I marry some women for 1/2 day).

I would be well within my rights to do the above islamically yet it would be the wrong thing to do.

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2 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

So there is the Islamic thing to do and there is the right thing to do...sometimes they are different. 

Islamically, I can marry 4 women each day, have relations with them, divorce them and repeat the next day. So in a year, I could marry 1,460 women or more ( in case I marry some women for 1/2 day).

I would be well within my rights to do the above islamically yet it would be the wrong thing to do.

I'm afraid you didn't understand the holistic version of Islam dear brother.

Anything that is Islamic is always right; and all things that are right are always Islamic. It just can not be otherwise.

What practitioners of Islam forget is Islam in not only the Fiqh rules; Islam is also the Adab (proprietary), the Akhlaq (proper manners), the Ehtiyat (Moderation), the Taqwa (restrain), the Rahma (consideration for those who are under your wilayah), and many more.

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6 hours ago, starlight said:

So,is your wife a slave?

My mother wasn't, my cousins and sister's in law aren't, my friends aren't,my co workers and the wives of male co workers aren't. 

Same here. I can think of a distant relative who mistreats his wife but in the rest of my long extended family women wield great influence over their husbands and in other family matters. Couples have disagreements everywhere in the world, and either of them may be at fault when things take the turn for the worse. 

Every time desi culture is mentioned, some people get triggered and find fault in everything. It's almost like listening to those racist right-wingers who go on incessantly about how barbaric and backward we are. I guess some Western Muslims suffer from a variety of social Stockholm syndrome, because many of them have adopted the same line of thinking as their rightwing haters. Funny thing is they don't see the irony of it.

And that nothing to do with self-criticism.

In case someone jumps on me, I am not denying the hazards of living and operating in a male-dominated society that disadvantages women in many ways. In fact, anyone who knows anything about my posting history would know that I'm the biggest critic of gender discrimination and misogyny. But to characterise desi/Islamic marriage as slavery for women, even in half-jest, reinforces the stereotypes we try so hard to address.

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5 hours ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

I agree with you. 

A man, islamically, needs to seek permission of the first wife. 

5 hours ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

I am sure that is incorrect, sis.

As far as I know, from a fiqhi point of view, a man is not obligated to seek permission of his wife when marrying a second. But it's better to discuss it and take the wife into confidence to ease up friction.

Could you show us a fatwa where the permission of the wife is a necessary condition for the legitimacy of a polygynous marriage?

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23 minutes ago, Marbles said:

As far as I know, from a fiqhi point of view, a man is not obligated to seek permission of his wife when marrying a second. But it's better to discuss it and take the wife into confidence to ease up friction.

Could you show us a fatwa where the permission of the wife is a necessary condition for the legitimacy of a polygynous marriage?

 Can you please bring any evidence regarding your statement 

We would greatly appreciate it 

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42 minutes ago, Marbles said:

As far as I know, from a fiqhi point of view, a man is not obligated to seek permission of his wife when marrying a second. But it's better to discuss it and take the wife into confidence to ease up friction.

Could you show us a fatwa where the permission of the wife is a necessary condition for the legitimacy of a polygynous marriage?

My post on the first page of this topic:

Quote

To do Mut'a with non-Muslims while you are married to a Muslim women is impermissible to some maraji' (Sayed Sistani is one of them), and some maraji' (Sayed Khoei is one of them) allow it only with the permission of the wife.

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1 minute ago, Hassan- said:

My post on the first page of this topic:

Thanks, Hasan. That is specifically about mutah with kitabi women.

What about mutah with Muslim women and permanent marriage with Muslim women? Do you need wife's permission for that as well?

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1 hour ago, Marbles said:

If the OP lives in Pakistan, the chances of his finding a kitabi for mutah are as good as none.

Same in India.

And whether he lives in Pakistan or not, his name indicates that he is from Lahore.

And the only Lahore I know is in Pakistan.

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