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In the Name of God بسم الله

should i do Muta?

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29 minutes ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

No, Western families don't have drama like this, not like middle easterners, because they don't have the same mentality. 

Friction with in-laws is universal. It is not the mentality but the necessities of culture. Western societies also had those issues in extended family until recently when individualism kicked in in the wake of the 1960s cultural revolution and changed the course of things. A paradigm shift aided by growing economic Independence had had an impact on the culture and family dynamics. This change was slow in the coming in the East. But it doesn't mean mentality is a static thing. It evolves all the time. New generation of educated middle classes over here don't think, behave, act and live as their parents and grandparents had done. 

In any case Westerners might not have the dramas Middle Easterners or South Asians have, but they have different kind of family dramas which, when encountered, boggle the mind. Eg, one episode each of Jerry Springer show (for USA) and Jeremy Kyle show (for UK) would illustrate my point.

 

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Take your wife to the gym.

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25 minutes ago, starlight said:

Sorry ,Ron. I give up. You are so fixated on these negative connotations of daughter in law and mother in law. What you wrote above is sick. 

FYI, my mother and my paternal grandmother were always on very good terms. They chose to continue living together even after my father passed away and maintained extremely pleasant relations until my grandmother's death 17 years later. I have numerous childhood memories of them fighting over house chores......fighting as in both of them not letting the other do it, my grandmother thinking Mum must be tired after coming back from work and mum not wanting to burden her old mother in law. 

 My cousins are all happily married alhumdollilah and except one all live with their mothers in law and don't want to move out. And there are a million other examples but it's pretty useless trying to convince you. 

I reckon people are slaves of their own experiences... and it's very, very, very, very hard to break the yoke of this slavery and widen one's horizons.

Enough said...

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1 hour ago, Marbles said:

In any case Westerners might not have the dramas Middle Easterners or South Asians have, but they have a different kind of family dramas which, when encountered, boggles the mind. Eg, one episode each of Jerry Springer show (for USA) and Jeremy Kyle show (for UK) would illustrate my point.

Jerry Springer and Maury demonstrate trashy American families. It's for entertainment, show. Most American families are not like what's on TV.

Other than that, I agree with your post. 

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1 hour ago, Marbles said:

In any case Westerners might not have the dramas Middle Easterners or South Asians have, but they have different kind of family dramas which, when encountered, boggle the mind. Eg, one episode each of Jerry Springer show (for USA) and Jeremy Kyle show (for UK) would illustrate my point.

Off-topic but... Jeremy Kyle is one hell of a man! He must be a great dad. I enjoy that show.

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2 minutes ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

Jerry Springer and Maury demonstrate trashy American families. It's for entertainment, show. Most American families are not like what's on TV.

Yep, exactly my point.

I gave those examples to show that it is not hard to find examples of the lowest common denominator doing crazy things, extrapolate it on the whole culture, and presume everyone is just the same, or a little better than the worst.

Some people in this thread are doing just that which is simply stupid.

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1 hour ago, starlight said:

Sorry ,Ron. I give up. You are so fixated on these negative connotations of daughter in law and mother in law. What you wrote above is sick. 

FYI, my mother and my paternal grandmother were always on very good terms. They chose to continue living together even after my father passed away and maintained extremely pleasant relations until my grandmother's death 17 years later. I have numerous childhood memories of them fighting over house chores......fighting as in both of them not letting the other do it, my grandmother thinking Mum must be tired after coming back from work and mum not wanting to burden her old mother in law. 

 My cousins are all happily married alhumdollilah and except one all live with their mothers in law and don't want to move out. And there are a million other examples but it's pretty useless trying to convince you. 

I am sorry but it looks like you haven't seen many families. I always see woman complaining about their mother in laws. I have even seen weird mothers but they are rare. 

I could provide you millions of examples too. 

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1 hour ago, Marbles said:

Eg, one episode each of Jerry Springer show (for USA) and Jeremy Kyle show (for UK) would illustrate my point.

I would prefer to think that's not real. Please don't break my delusion. 

But yeah, we got our own issues, dramas, all that. Different is not necessarily better.

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And people who are living in join family system in Pakistan doesn't mean that they want to live in joint family system. Its just they can't afford to live separate or they are afraid of their community that what they will say...

I am not saying people shouldn't live in joint family system. if you have a mansion where you could have your privacy then yes be my guest. 

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6 minutes ago, Ron_Burgundy said:

My brothers are not mahram for my wife? They are non mahrams.  

Then people must wear outside clothing while inside, but it's allowed to live with relatives, even with non-relatives, as far as I know. 

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55 minutes ago, Ron_Burgundy said:

And this joint family system is crazy and non-islamic. 

I don't care about joint family system as such, but at least we have kept our family structure in tact against the onslaught of West-inspired individualism. We still take care of our elders till they die instead of shipping them off to old homes, or leave to them alone in a small house where they are discovered on the third day of their death. 

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1 hour ago, starlight said:

Sorry ,Ron. I give up. You are so fixated on these negative connotations of daughter in law and mother in law. What you wrote above is sick. 

FYI, my mother and my paternal grandmother were always on very good terms. They chose to continue living together even after my father passed away and maintained extremely pleasant relations until my grandmother's death 17 years later. I have numerous childhood memories of them fighting over house chores......fighting as in both of them not letting the other do it, my grandmother thinking Mum must be tired after coming back from work and mum not wanting to burden her old mother in law. 

 My cousins are all happily married alhumdollilah and except one all live with their mothers in law and don't want to move out. And there are a million other examples but it's pretty useless trying to convince you. 

What would you get by convincing me. I am just telling you what I have seen. My parents had a perfect marriage now I can't base everything on it. I have to consider my surrounding and whats going on in this world and I am sorry whenever i go Pakistan I always see those aunties taking negative about their in laws. 

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2 minutes ago, Ron_Burgundy said:

I am sorry whenever i go Pakistan I always see those aunties taking negative about their in laws. 

They are just passing on the "love" they received from their own mothers-in-law lol This is human nature. Why this makes you so worried? People say negative things for other people all the time? A cousin of mine doesn't get along well with his sister. He says negative things about her all the time. 

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40 minutes ago, Marbles said:

I don't care about joint family system as such, but at least we have kept our family structure in tact against the onslaught of West-inspired individualism. We still take care of our elders till they die instead of shipping them off to old homes, or leave to them alone in a small house where they are discovered on the third day of their death. 

lol hahahaha thats funny.. You sound like my uncle. Who says we don't take care of our elders. Masha'Allah most muslim people i have seen here do take care of their elders. And yes you should please visit edhi homes when you get a chance. 

Edhi Home

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9 minutes ago, notme said:

Then people must wear outside clothing while inside, but it's allowed to live with relatives, even with non-relatives, as far as I know. 

Yes, it is allowed but for the sake of privacy i won't recommend. yes if you have a mansion i have no issues but if you are like me who lives in town house its a big No.  

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1 minute ago, notme said:

It's interesting how this conversation has evolved. Somehow what started with a troglodyte asking our permission to carry diseases to his hard working wife has passed through women being slaves to their husbands and now developed into an analysis of the pros and cons of the joint family household. 

It's like conversation in real life, but slower. Cool. 

And with that it's time to call it a day.

I was just going to say that the discussion has descended into many digressive offshoots and perhaps the mods had better show the red card.

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13 minutes ago, notme said:

It's interesting how this conversation has evolved. Somehow what started with a troglodyte asking our permission to carry diseases to his hard working wife has passed through women being slaves to their husbands and now developed into an analysis of the pros and cons of the joint family household. 

It's like conversation in real life, but slower. Cool. 

hahahahaha so true I don't even remember when we started discussing in laws. 

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59 minutes ago, Marbles said:

And with that it's time to call it a day.

I was just going to say that the discussion has descended into many digressive offshoots and perhaps the mods had better show the red card.

This has been one of the more interesting threads on this site. Hope the mods don't shut it down. 

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7 hours ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

Some of this mentality is in Arab culture as well, when I went to Dubai. (I'm not Arab myself.) While having breakfast at a buffet, I observed a person who seemed to be the wife and how she kept bringing back plates of food for who seemed to be her mother-in-law. 

Now Persians take this cycle to a different level. Persian mother-in-laws especially have a habit of making their daughter-in-law's lives miserable.  

 

Persian culture is probably the most westernized in comparison to other Muslim countries in terms of marriages. It is extremely rare to live with your parents after marriage. I actually don't know anyone who does this in Iran or the West. Sometimes you may live in the same apartment building as your in-laws but that's because traditionally the husband's family provides a house/apartment for the couple and the wife's family provides furnishing and everything inside the apartment/house. Usually many families purchase apartments for their sons in the same building when they buy their own. That's the closest you'll get to living with your parents. 

Most Iranian families I know have a great relationship with their in-laws. I'd even say some respect and are kinder to their daughter-in-law than their own daughter to make her feel welcomed and a part of the family lol. My grandmother and aunts treat their daughter-in-laws like princesses. My uncle's wife when she lost her mother she said, "I can't even complain and I'm at peace because Allah has blessed me with two mothers (referring to her mother-in-law as one) and I know even if my mother can never be replaced, I have another mother and for that I'm always thankful". Of course there are always exceptions, but the in-law relationship is complicated historically in various cultures due to many reasons, a lot of it has to do with psychology, but it's changing everyday.

6 hours ago, Qa'im said:

The parents generally leave their kids alone after they get married, and just expect to be called and visited on occasion. It's rare that an Arab couple lives with parents, unless there is some health or economic reason. Getting married is seen as the first step to adulthood and independence.

Very similar to Persian culture.

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I heard somewhere that when you are scared for your life, your desire to reproduce increases. I have a theory that in cultures, where daughters in law are abused and this tradition continues, it's done so that they have more kids. These cultures also tend to have higher birth rate. I read an article that russian scientists have found that women who are physically abused are more likely to give birth to sons. 

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On ‎02‎/‎09‎/‎2017 at 9:06 AM, molaayi_from_lahore said:

1- She doesn't want to go.

2- Even if she agrees somehow, she cannot go due to some home chores.

3- And even she agrees and starts going to a gym, it will take 2 years for her to be in a slightly attractive shape for me.

1 - Go with your wife

2 - Help her on chores so she have time to go to gym.

3 - I am sure you can wait and after that respect her efforts.

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1 hour ago, rkazmi33 said:

I heard somewhere that when you are scared for your life, your desire to reproduce increases.

Muta not necessarily involves the intention to reproduce.

2 hours ago, rkazmi33 said:

I read an article that russian scientists have found that women who are physically abused are more likely to give birth to sons. 

:) Should we assume this research correct? That would mean any woman who gives birth to son, were abused somewhere in her life!

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2 hours ago, rkazmi33 said:

I read an article that russian scientists have found that women who are physically abused are more likely to give birth to sons.

:hahaha::hahaha::hahaha: Sorry sis,but I literally doubled over laughing. How is this even possible unless we are assuming that all evidence about father carrying the Y chromosome is wrong. Either that or the eggs of the abused females run like certain Islamic figures ran from battles as soon as they see a sperm with a X chromosome approaching them. 

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17 minutes ago, starlight said:

:hahaha::hahaha::hahaha: Sorry sis,but I literally doubled over laughing. How is this even possible unless we are assuming that all evidence about father carrying the Y chromosome is wrong. Either that or the eggs of the abused females run like certain Islamic figures ran from battles as soon as they see a sperm with a X chromosome approaching them. 

I tried to find the article but I cannot find it. I remember reading that men who physically abuse their partners have higher levels of testosterone and that's why they are more likely to have sons. I made a post about it. I will try to find it. 

35 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

Muta not necessarily involves the intention to reproduce.

I was talking about why married women are abused more in some cultures and why those cultures try so hard to keep this tradition. 

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9 hours ago, Ron_Burgundy said:

And yes you should please visit edhi homes when you get a chance. 

And I advise you to see the percentage of parents living there and the percentage living in old houses in western cultures. Our culture (Pakistani) is rich in values that a very large number of people respect their parents as well as their wives.

Don't forget that we (sons) are slaves of our parents as per Quran. Here is the verse which commands us how to treat them:

إِمَّا يَبْلُغَنَّ عِندَكَ الْكِبَرَ أَحَدُهُمَا أَوْ كِلاَهُمَا فَلاَ تَقُل لَّهُمَآ أُفٍّ وَلاَ تَنْهَرْهُمَا وَقُل لَّهُمَا قَوْلاً كَرِيمًا
وَاخْفِضْ لَهُمَا جَنَاحَ الذُّلِّ مِنَ الرَّحْمَةِ وَقُل رَّبِّ ارْحَمْهُمَا كَمَا رَبَّيَانِي صَغِيرًا

"If either or both of them reach old age with you, say not to them (so much as) "Ugh" (uff) nor chide them, and speak to them a generous word. And make yourself submissively gentle to them with compassion, and say: O my Lord! have compassion on them, as they brought me up (when I was) little." (17:23-24)

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On 9/2/2017 at 8:06 AM, molaayi_from_lahore said:

1- She doesn't want to go

1. Somehow, I doubt that. If she doesn't want to go, ask her why and be understanding of her. You said that she was depressed, living with depression is very difficult for people. It is not simply being sad, depression is far more complex than mere sadness.

On 9/2/2017 at 8:06 AM, molaayi_from_lahore said:

Even if she agrees somehow, she cannot go due to some home chores.

2. Chores should not stop her from going to the gym herself. Be a man and help her.

On 9/2/2017 at 8:06 AM, molaayi_from_lahore said:

And even she agrees and starts going to a gym, it will take 2 years for her to be in a slightly attractive shape for me.

3. Or she can please you while losing the weight. It is not about looks but the person. The only person making this difficult for you is yourself.

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8 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

And I advise you to see the percentage of parents living there and the percentage living in old houses in western cultures. Our culture (Pakistani) is rich in values that a very large number of people respect their parents as well as their wives.

Don't forget that we (sons) are slaves of our parents as per Quran. Here is the verse which commands us how to treat them:

إِمَّا يَبْلُغَنَّ عِندَكَ الْكِبَرَ أَحَدُهُمَا أَوْ كِلاَهُمَا فَلاَ تَقُل لَّهُمَآ أُفٍّ وَلاَ تَنْهَرْهُمَا وَقُل لَّهُمَا قَوْلاً كَرِيمًا
وَاخْفِضْ لَهُمَا جَنَاحَ الذُّلِّ مِنَ الرَّحْمَةِ وَقُل رَّبِّ ارْحَمْهُمَا كَمَا رَبَّيَانِي صَغِيرًا

"If either or both of them reach old age with you, say not to them (so much as) "Ugh" (uff) nor chide them, and speak to them a generous word. And make yourself submissively gentle to them with compassion, and say: O my Lord! have compassion on them, as they brought me up (when I was) little." (17:23-24)

But this is not islamic contry and people don't mind living separately. Here parents want their privacy. They don't want be bothers buy their kids all the time. In pakistan things are different people do make money they just want their parents to feed them. 

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8 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

And I advise you to see the percentage of parents living there and the percentage living in old houses in western cultures. Our culture (Pakistani) is rich in values that a very large number of people respect their parents as well as their wives.

Don't forget that we (sons) are slaves of our parents as per Quran. Here is the verse which commands us how to treat them:

إِمَّا يَبْلُغَنَّ عِندَكَ الْكِبَرَ أَحَدُهُمَا أَوْ كِلاَهُمَا فَلاَ تَقُل لَّهُمَآ أُفٍّ وَلاَ تَنْهَرْهُمَا وَقُل لَّهُمَا قَوْلاً كَرِيمًا
وَاخْفِضْ لَهُمَا جَنَاحَ الذُّلِّ مِنَ الرَّحْمَةِ وَقُل رَّبِّ ارْحَمْهُمَا كَمَا رَبَّيَانِي صَغِيرًا

"If either or both of them reach old age with you, say not to them (so much as) "Ugh" (uff) nor chide them, and speak to them a generous word. And make yourself submissively gentle to them with compassion, and say: O my Lord! have compassion on them, as they brought me up (when I was) little." (17:23-24)

But this is not islamic country and people don't mind living separately. Here parents want their privacy. They don't want be bothers buy their kids all the time. In pakistan things are different people do make money they just want their parents to feed them. 

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