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In the Name of God بسم الله
yusur317

Why do we revere Sayids?

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1 hour ago, Qa'im said:

W's,

The Prophet (s) was of pure lineage, with no shirk or zina in his foreparents. This was one of his signs of nobility. He prayed for his descendants. Sayyids would paternally share that nobility. They are not allowed to take zakat. Nowadays we think that every individual is unique, which is partly true, but conventional wisdom also alludes that the apple does not fall far from the tree, and that our family has an effect on who we are. 

A sayyid gets two rewards for every deed, and two penalties for every sin. This is because they have a responsibility in representing their grandfather in a good way.

It goes without saying that everyone deserves respect regardless of tribe. But it's ok to recognize the Prophet's descendants as well. Natural aristocracy is not a bad thing.

I've heard this before but never seen proof, do you have a hadith?

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6 hours ago, yusur317 said:

:salam: 

I have a real issue with the way people treat Sayyids compared to non-sayids. 

How is this justified? 

Why does a momin revere a momin ? A momin revere a momin because both of them are part of one foundation. Love is in their veins for one another due to spiritual affiliations. It is not necessary that you respect a syed except for his piety, good behavior and affiliation with the prophet PBUHHP. But if a syed is a sinner and you feel no love for him even then as a Muslim you should love him for the sake of Prophet PBUHHP and advice him about his responsibilities by implying toward Rasolallah SAAWW. Prophet PBUHHP said: "Khums is for me and for my descendant, give khums to my descendants and do not neglect your responsibility even if one among them is not good in religion". 

Imam Reza a.s said: "A leader is in one way a servant of nation". Following the same quotation, I advice myself and those syeds who are from the descendants of Prophet PBUHHP that we are given an honor for which entire praise is for God and there is no share for us that we are born syeds so let us not make God angry and consider that we are servants of Ummah of Prophet PBUHHP, ignore those of their things that hurt you and always make them happy for Allah says: "Creation is my family".  

To my dear brothers and sisters, love syeds just for the sake of Prophet PBUHHP for Prophet PBUHHP asked you that my payment for this great service to you is "Love my relatives". The foremost in those are the house of Ahlebait along with Syeda Zahra a.s and 12 Imams and later is the number of Ummah. Syeds are bound to love non-syed Ummah for they are spiritual relatives of Prophet PBUHHP for Prophet PBUHHP said: "I and Ali are two fathers of this nation". and non-syeds are bound to love syeds for they also are spiritual relatives of Prophet along with the physical connection as mentioned in the above hadith of Khums. 

Ethnic difference discussions are most hurting for me. 

Edited by Sindbad05

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6 hours ago, yusur317 said:

:salam: 

I have a real issue with the way people treat Sayyids compared to non-sayids. 

How is this justified? 

I respect those people more who give due respect to Sayyids because of their remembrance of this blessed verse:
قُل لَّا أَسْأَلُكُمْ عَلَيْهِ أَجْرًا إِلَّا الْمَوَدَّةَ فِي الْقُرْبَى

Their love & respect for Sayyids, whether fallible or infallible, impresses me. May Allah grant those people best reward for loving & respecting the "Sadaat" in response to His command.

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2 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

I respect those people more who give due respect to Sayyids because of their remembrance of this blessed verse:
قُل لَّا أَسْأَلُكُمْ عَلَيْهِ أَجْرًا إِلَّا الْمَوَدَّةَ فِي الْقُرْبَى

Their love & respect for Sayyids, whether fallible or infallible, impresses me. May Allah grant those people best reward for loving & respecting the "Sadaat" in response to His command.

May Allah AWJ give syeds also the ability to respect the Ummah of the Prophet PBUHHP who used to sit along them and loved those people who were pious and therefore respected them. May Allah AWJ give me power and courage to raise the level of my brothers in faith not to let them bow before me and not to let them sit on floor while I am sitting on chair. I have never felt great shame whenever I see that someone in Pakistan who when I said that I am syed just bowed in respect while meeting me while doing that I was ashamed to compare myself and say what a bad descendant I am and what a great ancestor was my prophet. I try to bend myself when they bend because it is what Quran taught us speaking to Prophet Quran says: "O! Prophet, bend for those who come to met you and bend themselves for respect". Alas! I am unable to convince the older ones in my time that haughtiness for being syed is what Prophet disliked. When I ask them why they sit on ground those who respect syeds, they say because they do not want to sit on chair out of respect. Probably this was the reason that Prophet PBUHHP did not place chair in the house so all be equal. 

Syeds please open your eyes. 

Edited by Sindbad05

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1 hour ago, Sindbad05 said:

May Allah AWJ give syeds also the ability to respect the Ummah of the Prophet PBUHHP who used to sit along them and loved those people who were pious and therefore respected them. May Allah AWJ give me power and courage to raise the level of my brothers in faith not to let them bow before me and not to let them sit on floor while I am sitting on chair. I have never felt great shame whenever I see that someone in Pakistan who when I said that I am syed just bowed in respect while meeting me while doing that I was ashamed to compare myself and say what a bad descendant I am and what a great ancestor was my prophet. I try to bend myself when they bend because it is what Quran taught us speaking to Prophet Quran says: "O! Prophet, bend for those who come to met you and bend themselves for respect". Alas! I am unable to convince the older ones in my time that haughtiness for being syed is what Prophet disliked. When I ask them why they sit on ground those who respect syeds, they say because they do not want to sit on chair out of respect. Probably this was the reason that Prophet PBUHHP did not place chair in the house so all be equal. 

Syeds please open your eyes. 

Aren't you a Sayyed too bro ?

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What do all humans desire? - Authority, power, respect, this allows them to be treated as a human rather then non-

The objective of the said narrations was to indicate to the lineage not to abuse their blood line. Throughout history all those of so called noble birth's used that particular heritage to rule over the masses while enjoying good lifestyles. The problem is poor education, which has caused confusion in regards to respect. All humans should be respected, but respect also should be earned. A person of royal blood line, cannot be respected if they are inhuman, thus the narration is indicating that, the offspring has a responsibility not to taint their blood line as it will cause the religion to be tainted, with the added bonus of twice the reward or sin. I would not worry about such trivialities. Go follow the path of virtue and live your own life.

Most respect sayyeds is no different then respecting someone with wealth or power, its called association. Just like many of you would love to be respected and heard. Same nonsense, just a different face, body, color, ideal.

Edited by monad

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20 hours ago, monad said:

What do all humans desire? - Authority, power, respect, this allows them to be treated as a human rather then non-

The objective of the said narrations was to indicate to the lineage not to abuse their blood line. Throughout history all those of so called noble birth's used that particular heritage to rule over the masses while enjoying good lifestyles. The problem is poor education, which has caused confusion in regards to respect. All humans should be respected, but respect also should be earned. A person of royal blood line, cannot be respected if they are inhuman, thus the narration is indicating that, the offspring has a responsibility not to taint their blood line as it will cause the religion to be tainted, with the added bonus of twice the reward or sin. I would not worry about such trivialities. Go follow the path of virtue and live your own life.

Most respect sayyeds is no different then respecting someone with wealth or power, its called association. Just like many of you would love to be respected and heard. Same nonsense, just a different face, body, color, ideal.

Well, brother, syeds are not respected for having wealth or being a celebrity but only because of love of Prophet PBUHHP.. Neither syeds due to love for them asks people that they should rule over them. It is just a feeling of love for Prophet PBUHHP and it does not ask anyone to carry us on shoulders. Love or don't, decision is in your hands, but being Muslims if we really love Allah, we should set aside prejudices and love each other, rather than asks unnecessary questions like why are syeds being loved or why are pious being respected by God. lolz.

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exactly my point. They love them based on associations. The reason why people ask, because they see the prejudice in the interaction of human behavior. Perhaps that observed behavior consists of contradictions in how one is treated according to the next. This is called favoritism. Humans despise it the most.

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I have never received special treatment due to being syed. When I was in Pakistan, I lived in a city among Sunnis. Now most of people in my community are syeds. I have never received Khums. My sister married a non-syed and while she is being punished for this, she doesn't get any respect even from her non-syed husband. 

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7 hours ago, monad said:

exactly my point. They love them based on associations. The reason why people ask, because they see the prejudice in the interaction of human behavior. Perhaps that observed behavior consists of contradictions in how one is treated according to the next. This is called favoritism. Humans despise it the most.

Well, everyone has something good that other desires, some are born rich, some are born beautiful and some are born genius and some are born in the lineage of great people. Instead of wasting time in unnecessary things, we must focus on ourselves because these things will prevail even after we are died. 

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11 hours ago, Sindbad05 said:

why are Syeds being loved or why are pious being respected by God. 

Brother, the pious should, of course, be loved and respected.

But the impious have no claim to love or respect, even if they belong to the immediate family of a prophet.

The Quran gives the example of God's rejection of the son of Prophet Noah.

"So the Ark floated with them on the waves (towering) like mountains, 
and Noah called out to his son, who had separated himself (from the rest): 
'O my son! come with us, and be not with the unbelievers!'

The son replied: 'I will betake myself to some mountain: it will save me from the water.' 
Noah said: 'This day nothing can save, from the command of Allah, 
any but those on whom He hath mercy!' And the waves came between them, 
and the son was among those drowned in the Flood

And it was said: O earth! Swallow thy water and, O sky! be cleared of clouds! And the water was made to subside. And the commandment was fulfilled. And it (the ship) came to rest upon (the mount) Al-Judi and it was said: A far removal for wrongdoing folk!

And Noah cried unto his Lord: 'My Lord! Lo! my son is of my household! Surely Thy promise is the truth and Thou are the Most Just of Judges'.

He said: 'Noah! Lo! he is not of thy household; lo! he is of evil conduct, so ask not of Me that whereof you have no knowledge. I admonish thee lest thou be among the ignorant.'

It was said (unto him):' O Noah! Go thou down (from the mountain) with peace from Us and blessings upon thee and some nations (that will spring) from those with thee. (There will be other) nations unto whom We shall give enjoyment a long while and then a painful doom from Us will overtake them.'

 [Q. 11:42-48]

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22 hours ago, yusur317 said:

:salam: 

I have a real issue with the way people treat Sayyids compared to non-sayids. 

How is this justified? 

Alaikumus salaam.

It is quite common for people to respect the sons and daughters of influental people. It is not a loss to respect other people and make other people happy, but if you are not willing to do it than you have every right not to do it.

"----------Indeed, the most noble of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you------."

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mmm but Jahil Sayeds will have it tough Astaghfirullah

H 980, Ch. 88, h 2
Al-Husayn ibn Muhammad has narrated from Mu‘alla ibn Muhammad who has said that al-
Washsha’ said Ahmad ibn ‘Umar has narrated to us the following. "Inform me about those 
who have opposed you and has ignored your rights as a descendant of Fatima (a.s.) would his 
suffering be the same as the other people?" He said, "Ali ibn al-Husayn (a.s.) would say that 
their suffering will twice as much."

On 8/25/2017 at 1:34 AM, Salsabeel said:

I respect those people more who give due respect to Sayyids because of their remembrance of this blessed verse:
قُل لَّا أَسْأَلُكُمْ عَلَيْهِ أَجْرًا إِلَّا الْمَوَدَّةَ فِي الْقُرْبَى

love for the sake of Allah is the best and most rewarded love Mashallah brother.

As a Sayyed, let me give my opinion. I agree somewhat with @E.L King that natural aristocracy isn't a bad thing, though Sayyeds shouldn't be proud. The ahadith imply that this lineage is a blessing. To be from the family if such a great man is a blessing. Don't waste it, or the punishment of Allah will be severe (like in the hadiths quoted by myself and @Qa'im). As for revering Sayyeds, I'll leave that to the others. Personally I've never felt much "reverance," anyways.

wasalaam

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8 hours ago, Mansur Bakhtiari said:

mmm but Jahil Sayeds will have it tough Astaghfirullah

H 980, Ch. 88, h 2
Al-Husayn ibn Muhammad has narrated from Mu‘alla ibn Muhammad who has said that al-
Washsha’ said Ahmad ibn ‘Umar has narrated to us the following. "Inform me about those 
who have opposed you and has ignored your rights as a descendant of Fatima (a.s.) would his 
suffering be the same as the other people?" He said, "Ali ibn al-Husayn (a.s.) would say that 
their suffering will twice as much."

love for the sake of Allah is the best and most rewarded love Mashallah brother.

As a Sayyed, let me give my opinion. I agree somewhat with @E.L King that natural aristocracy isn't a bad thing, though Sayyeds shouldn't be proud. The ahadith imply that this lineage is a blessing. To be from the family if such a great man is a blessing. Don't waste it, or the punishment of Allah will be severe (like in the hadiths quoted by myself and @Qa'im). As for revering Sayyeds, I'll leave that to the others. Personally I've never felt much "reverance," anyways.

wasalaam

Thank you brother,

We all should have to note that we are responsible for our own deeds. We are "giving" something here i.e., respect to a person who belongs to the blessed lineage and because of the blessed verse of Holy Quran. Otherwise it is known to us that in the sight of Allah, the most honorable is the one who is most careful (of his duty).

"Inna akramakum indallahe atqakum" (49:13)
"Surely the most honorable of you with Allah is the one among you most careful (of his duty)"

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4 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

I ask the same question in every Syed bashing thread - why are khojas given a free pass when they have khoja-only cemeteries and centers?

Being a member of that community, I disagree with this thing and there are many khojas like me who dislike this practice. Some of the laws need serious amendments. Not all fingers are same. 

On similar lines, there are sayyed who are evil and there are pious one. The sayyed deserve respect, if any, only because of their lineage and not their actions. I recall an incident of 11th Imam commanding one of his companion to respect Jafar-e-Kazzab only because of his blood relation. Although I do not have text to prove the point. 

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Wow...comparing Syeds to Khojas

Anyhow as much as some people may dislike it:

https://www.al-islam.org/a-shiite-creed-shaykh-saduq/concerning-alids-alawiya

Also there are other hadith saying things like the only lineage that will remain on the day of jusgement is the lineage of the Prophet saww and all else will be cut off.

 

One more thing...the haters must be bursting with fury by now....surah Fatir verse 32......

Surah Fatir, Verse 32:
ثُمَّ أَوْرَثْنَا الْكِتَابَ الَّذِينَ اصْطَفَيْنَا مِنْ عِبَادِنَا فَمِنْهُمْ ظَالِمٌ لِّنَفْسِهِ وَمِنْهُم مُّقْتَصِدٌ وَمِنْهُمْ سَابِقٌ بِالْخَيْرَاتِ بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ ذَٰلِكَ هُوَ الْفَضْلُ الْكَبِيرُ

Then We gave the Book for an inheritance to those whom We chose from among Our servants; but of them is he who makes his soul to suffer a loss, and of them is he who takes a middle course, and of them is he who is foremost in deeds of goodness by Allah's permission; this is the great excellence.
(English - Shakir)

According to the interpretation of Imam Muhammad bin Ali al Baqir and Imam Jafar bin Muhammad as Sadiq the reference in this verse is to the progeny of Ali and Fatimah, which is the progeny of the Holy Prophet.

(i) There are those who do not recognise Allah's chosen Imam of the age. They are those "who make their souls suffer."

(ii) There are those who although recognise the Imam of the age but are not fully aware of the laws ordained by Allah and its proper application in day to day life.

(iii) The Imams of the Ahl ul Bayt are Allah's chosen guides who live a godly life governed by perfect knowledge and practical application of all the Quranic injunctions. By their inherent example they stand as guides to humanity, constantly calling the people towards truth and godliness, and forbidding evil in every form.

Edited by gajarkahalva

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11 hours ago, Qa'im said:

I'm not referring to how the Subcontinent deals with the sayyid/nonsayyid issue. I think we can all agree that in India and Pakistan, the Sayyid-reverence is partly carried over from the caste system, which was oppressive. In the desi community I've heard of marriages breaking off due to the sayyid-nonsayyid issue, or women pushed into marrying sayyids who don't even pray. Not only can a sayyid marry whomever he/she wants, but her lineage will not cause her to perform good deeds or abstain her from performing evil deeds.

At the same time, Islam did not come to destroy all forms of nobility. Free women and slave women dressed differently, dhimmis wore special clothes or badges, and nobles would wear different coloured turbans and sashes to identify themselves in society. Pre-Modern societies did not have ID cards, and so your clothing would indicate your class right away. The Imams even made sure that slaves were not dressing as freemen, as that would be deceptive and fraudulent.

The Prophet mentioned checking lineage when looking for a spouse. Your spouse is likely similar to her siblings and parents, and sometimes even more similar to a grandparent or an uncle. Those of us who are descendant from Ibrahim (as) still feel a connection with their forefather, remember him, and try to make him happy with us.

Imam Ali (a) also taught that a child born in zina will effect seven generations. At first this may seem odd, but zina can destroy a family, or even the 3 families involved, and life under a step father usually has some adverse effects. In the eyes of Allah, the innocent child of zina did nothing wrong; but in society he is likely to suffer from issues that you can research yourself (effects of fatherless homes, effects of step-parent homes, etc.)

The Prophet himself honoured the chiefs of other tribes, because traditional institutions are weighty, and cannot be swept up overnight. Instead of obliterating the tribes, he sought to reform them under our ethical codes.

The natural aristocracy I mentioned is not a simply bloodline. It is a Jacksonian term that refers to an aristocracy of virtue and talent. That is pretty much want the Prophet (s) wanted in his descendants  - some will manifest those qualities, and others will lose them. I have met evil sayyids, but I have also met sayyids with incredible noor, beauty, akhlaq, eloquence, and intellect - almost to a supernatural level. The Arabs mastered the practice physiognomy and they were able to recognize a noble man over a fraud and trickster, and everyone agreed that the Prophet's face was that of an honest man of class. When I read on physiognomy, I was able to recognize the sadat, and in multiple situations I recognized them before they told me their names.

The sayyids have a heightened responsibility of amr bil ma`ruf wa nahi `an al-munkar, like all of us, except that will be rewarded and punished greater, because the people recognize them as sayyids. If every sayyid you met was evil, then that may cause you to dislike their forefather altogether. So the sayyids must treat people good so that the people know that the baraka of the Prophet still flows among us. Marrying into the family of our beloved Prophet (s) is also an honour and a responsibility, but lineage is not the only thing we research - we must research akhlaq and deen, which are more important.

Wallahu a`lam

I can understand your point of view perfectly and I even agree with some of the points you have made. However, in absence of scholarship, I will not push the point any further.

But I must say that I find it very difficult to believe that Islam’s massive push for a merit based society would support respect and honour based on worldly things, such as a noble birth, wealth, power, etc. I have already given the example of Hazrat Nooh’s son. And I will leave it at that.  

As you have rightly said, Wallahu a'lam  

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14 hours ago, baqar said:

But the impious have no claim to love or respect, even if they belong to the immediate family of a prophet.

Don't love brother, I do not ask to love impious ones. But if you keep regard of Prophet and tell them to mend their ways just for the sake of Prophet PBUHHP and stop asking question why someone revere syeds, I think Prophet PBUHHP would love that. To me this question is same as that of Scholars that some people say that we disagree with this Maraja or that Maraja, we may disagree with scholars and individuals but because of personal conduct or difference in opinion could not ask question why should we respect or love them ?

If there is an Alim whose opinion I disagree or dislike, I would not go on asking people not to respect or love all Alims. 

 

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2 hours ago, gajarkahalva said:

Also there are other hadith saying things like the only lineage that will remain on the day of jusgement is the lineage of the Prophet saww and all else will be cut off. etc etc etc

Better quote it and its authenticity. If that be the case, then I am sure many would be more then happy to retire from the religion. OR perhaps as usual, there is an incorrect interpretation of what has been written. I 'd say, if anyone follow the creed to the expect value is a syed. I am sure the dreamers can attend to it, if they share their dreams wearing black towels.

I wonder if those who respect lineages as much respect ants as much too?

Edited by monad

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16 minutes ago, monad said:

wonder if those who respect lineages as much respect ants as much too?

Salamun Alaikum Brother, 

Perhaps the following verse answer your question:

Surah Al-Isra, Verse 70:

وَلَقَدْ كَرَّمْنَا بَنِي آدَمَ وَحَمَلْنَاهُمْ فِي الْبَرِّ وَالْبَحْرِ وَرَزَقْنَاهُم مِّنَ الطَّيِّبَاتِ وَفَضَّلْنَاهُمْ عَلَىٰ كَثِيرٍ مِّمَّنْ خَلَقْنَا تَفْضِيلًا

 

And surely We have honored the children of Adam, and We carry them in the land and the sea, and We have given them of the good things, and We have made them to excel by an appropriate excellence over most of those whom We have created.

(English - Shakir)

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1 hour ago, monad said:

Better quote it and its authenticity. If that be the case, then I am sure many would be more then happy to retire from the religion. OR perhaps as usual, there is an incorrect interpretation of what has been written. I 'd say, if anyone follow the creed to the expect value is a syed. I am sure the dreamers can attend to it, if they share their dreams wearing black towels.

I wonder if those who respect lineages as much respect ants as much too?

On http://quran.al-islam.org check the tafseer for surah momenoon verse 101 (23:101) onwards.....you will find the agha Haji Mirza Mahdi Pooya state:

The Holy Prophet said:

"All distinctions and relations shall cease to exist on the day of resurrection except the distinction and relation connected with me."

You can also check the tafseer for the same verse in Tafseer Namoona by Makarem Shirazi where he provides the same tradition. The reference given is from Majma Ul Bayan by Shaykh Tabrasi (shia).

There are further traditions (albeit from sunni sources which should not in itself discredit them) on shiapen given - just scroll down the page to "Reply – The familial lineage of the descendants of Muhammad (s) shall not be severed on the Day of Judgment":

http://www.shiapen.com/comprehensive/non-egalitarian-imamate/hereditary-leadership.html

HTH

Edited by gajarkahalva

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@Qa'im

"A Sayyid gets two rewards for every deed, and two penalties for every sin. This is because they have a responsibility in representing their grandfather in a good way".

You stated the above in one of your posts. Could you, or anyone else, please kindly provide the source for this. I have never come across this before. Thank you.

 

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5 hours ago, Aflower said:

@Qa'im

"A Sayyid gets two rewards for every deed, and two penalties for every sin. This is because they have a responsibility in representing their grandfather in a good way".

You stated the above in one of your posts. Could you, or anyone else, please kindly provide the source for this. I have never come across this before. Thank you.

 

عدة من أصحابنا، عن أحمد بن محمد، عن ابن أبي نصر قال: سألت الرضا عليه السلام قلت له: الجاحد منكم ومن غيركم سواء؟ فقال: الجاحد منا له ذنبان و المحسن له حسنتان. 

Several of our companions from Ahmad b. Muhammad from ibn Abi Nasr. 

He said: I asked ar-Rida عليه السلام; I said to him: A disbeliever from you (I.e. the children of Fatima) and one from other than you – are they equal? So he said: A disbeliever from us, for him are two sins; and a good person [from us], for him are two good deeds. (al-Kafi, Volume 1, hadith 975) 

(sahih) (صحيح)

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40 minutes ago, Qa'im said:
عدة من أصحابنا، عن أحمد بن محمد، عن ابن أبي نصر قال: سألت الرضا عليه السلام قلت له: الجاحد منكم ومن غيركم سواء؟ فقال: الجاحد منا له ذنبان و المحسن له حسنتان. 

Several of our companions from Ahmad b. Muhammad from ibn Abi Nasr. 

He said: I asked ar-Rida عليه السلام; I said to him: A disbeliever from you (I.e. the children of Fatima) and one from other than you – are they equal? So he said: A disbeliever from us, for him are two sins; and a good person [from us], for him are two good deeds. (al-Kafi, Volume 1, hadith 975) 

(sahih) (صحيح)

Wow! Well my madressah teacher never taught us that! My hereafter position is looking pretty grim based on these new stats! Lol! Thanks for sharing.

Edited by Aflower

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