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In the Name of God بسم الله

Why I became Muslim (Sunni)

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@Mohammed72

Sheikh Hassan Allahyari (ha) has asked the followers of Abu Bakar and other idol worshippers to have debate series.

He (ha) has challenged your scholars again and again, however, they keep hiding.

I have a question, are you willing to debate Sheikh Hassan Allahyari (ha) and defend your religion?

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5 minutes ago, Hassan- said:
26 minutes ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

So now tell which narrations carry more weight. 1. those narrated by 12 Imams or 2. those narrated by prophet himself?

Both are the same, because the Imams don't narrate anything that contradicts the sunnah of the Prophet. 

Here is a reliable hadith:

 محمد بن قولويه والحسين بن الحسن بن بندار معا، عن سعد، عن اليقطيني، عن يونس بن عبد الرحمن ... قال: حدثني هشام بن الحكم أنه سمع أبا عبد الله عليه السلام يقول: لا تقبلوا علينا حديثا إلا ما وافق القرآن والسنة أو تجدون معه شاهدا من أحاديثنا المتقدمة  ... فاتقوا الله و لا تقبلوا علينا ما خالف قول ربنا تعالى و سنة نبينا صلى الله عليه وآله ... فلا تقبلوا علينا خلاف القرآن فإنا إن تحدثنا حدثنا بموافقة القرآن و موافقة السنة ...

Muhammad b. Qulawayh and al-Husayn b. al-Hasan b. Bundar together from Sa’d from al-Yaqtini from Yunus b. Abd al-Rahman … he said: Hisham b. al-Hakam narrated to me that he heard Aba Abdillah عليه السلام saying: do not accept a narration on our authority except that which is in agreement with the Qur’an and the Sunna or you find for it a corroboration from our past narrations … so fear Allah and do not accept on our authority that which opposes the Word of our Lord the Exalted and the Sunna of our prophet صلى الله عليه وآله … so do not accept on our authority what opposes the Qur’an, for when we narrate we only do narrate what is in agreement with the Qur’an and in agreement with the Sunna …

Then why did you say that shia narrations are from infallibles while sunni ones are from fallible people?

But we also know that many ahlebayt narrations are either weak or fabrications, then how can we confirm which ones are in agreement with the sunnah. For that purpose we need sunnah as a separate entity so one can verify. Am I right?

Above hadith say do not accept a narration on our authority except that which is in agreement with the Qur’an and the Sunna. We all have same quran but where is sunna?

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[Mod Note: Calling Shia religious leaders dogs. Member was banned on 8/24/2017.]

On 8/24/2017 at 8:29 AM, Hassan- said:

Aisha was condemned to hell by Allah (awj), do you want me to prove that to you via Quran and sunni ahadith? Just tell me and I will.

Is it big man. You so brave saying that behind a computer screen. A dare you say that to a Muslim in real life. And the picture of those 3 dogs on your screen, the same dogs who said you are not allowed to disrespect Aisha (RA). But as usual Shia hypocrisy.  

On 8/24/2017 at 8:43 AM, Salsabeel said:

@Mohammed72

May the Almighty resurrect you with Abu Bakr & Umar. 

Ameen. 

I also ask Allah you resurrect you with Ibn Saba'.

On 8/24/2017 at 8:43 AM, S.M.H.A. said:

Quoting the same Kafir who said that we should dig up the graves of Abu Bakr (RA) and Umar (RA) something that Ali (RA) wasn't brave or smart enough to do according to your Jewish religion. He also sent out Fatima (RA) to defend him as shias accuse him of being a coward. He didn't stop someone killing his wife? The "LOVERS" of Ali.

On 8/24/2017 at 8:47 AM, alidu78 said:

I heard one time a scholar quoting an hadith wich say approximately " Those who apostate of shia faith are by choice stupid or son of a [Edited Out] (please dont censure me it is litterally like that that the hadith had been quoted) or both of them". When i see some pseudo "ex shia" i am thinking more and more that this hadith must be true and i would like to know the exact reference.

I do not know what to say. With the shia belief in Mutah? and a shia still has the guts to accuse someone of that. And it certainly is a shia faith nothing to do with Islam. 

33:33 And abide in your houses and do not display yourselves as [was] the display of the former times of ignorance. And establish prayer and give zakah and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah intends only to remove from you the impurity [of sin], O people of the [Prophet's] household, and to purify you with [extensive] purification.

So they already had sins. Secondly, shias love using mutashabihat like always. The whole verse before that is feminine and after that the next verse is feminine and the verses that were before that were feminine. Are you accusing of Ali and Hassan and Hussein of being... 

Anyway in the shia version of hadith al kisa we read

Then the Lord, Almighty Allah said :"O My angels! O Residents of My Heavens, verily, I have not created the erected Sky, the stretched earth, the illuminated moon, the bright sun, the rotating planets, the flowing seas and the sailing ships, but for the love of these Five lying underneath the cloak"

However, in the Quran we read:

51:56 And I (Allah) created not the jinns and humans except they should worship Me (Alone).

On 8/24/2017 at 8:46 AM, Hassan- said:

Both are the same, because the Imams don't narrate anything that contradicts the sunnah of the Prophet. 

Here is a reliable hadith:

 محمد بن قولويه والحسين بن الحسن بن بندار معا، عن سعد، عن اليقطيني، عن يونس بن عبد الرحمن ... قال: حدثني هشام بن الحكم أنه سمع أبا عبد الله عليه السلام يقول: لا تقبلوا علينا حديثا إلا ما وافق القرآن والسنة أو تجدون معه شاهدا من أحاديثنا المتقدمة  ... فاتقوا الله و لا تقبلوا علينا ما خالف قول ربنا تعالى و سنة نبينا صلى الله عليه وآله ... فلا تقبلوا علينا خلاف القرآن فإنا إن تحدثنا حدثنا بموافقة القرآن و موافقة السنة ...

Muhammad b. Qulawayh and al-Husayn b. al-Hasan b. Bundar together from Sa’d from al-Yaqtini from Yunus b. Abd al-Rahman … he said: Hisham b. al-Hakam narrated to me that he heard Aba Abdillah عليه السلام saying: do not accept a narration on our authority except that which is in agreement with the Qur’an and the Sunna or you find for it a corroboration from our past narrations … so fear Allah and do not accept on our authority that which opposes the Word of our Lord the Exalted and the Sunna of our prophet صلى الله عليه وآله … so do not accept on our authority what opposes the Qur’an, for when we narrate we only do narrate what is in agreement with the Qur’an and in agreement with the Sunna …

If the Imams only narrate Quran and Sunnah what is the difference between them and normal scholars.

Also, if the Ahlulbayt follow the Quran and Sunnah why dont we follow the Quran and the Sunnah directly instead of going through

On 8/24/2017 at 8:37 AM, Hassan- said:

Also another question for you Mr. "ex-shia". Give me one hadith or a verse in the Quran where Allah (awj) allowed us to choose our own leader (e.g. Abu Bakr being the 'rightly guided leader' because the people chose him to be so) ? Just one hadith or a verse. If you can't provide one, this proves that Abu Bakr is an illegitimate leader. You can even watch this video below where the Sunni got asked the same question but couldn't answer it.

 

42:38 And those who respond to their Lord and keep up prayer, and their rule is to take counsel among themselves, and who spend out of what We have given them.

On 8/24/2017 at 8:28 AM, S.M.H.A. said:

 

And adnan ibrahim is a very well know hypocrite.

What do the Ahlulbayt follow?

Quran and Sunnah. 

try answering my questions instead of asking.

Edited by Hameedeh
To add the Mod Note.
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8:11 (Remember) when He covered you with a slumber as a security from Him, and He caused water (rain) to descend on you from the sky, to clean you thereby and to remove from you the Rijz (whispering, evil-suggestions, etc.) of Shaitan (Satan), and to strengthen your hearts, and make your feet firm thereby.

This verse was revealed about the Sahaba (RA) and includes the phrase "yudhab" and "rijz" does that make them infallible as well. 

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Just now, Salsabeel said:

 

وَمَا دُعَاء الْكَافِرِينَ إِلاَّ فِي ضَلاَلٍ

 

 

 

I like how you cut out the beginning of the verse.

13:14 For Him (Alone) is the Word of Truth (i.e. none has the right to be worshipped but He). And those whom they (polytheists and disbelievers) invoke, answer them no more than one who stretches forth his hand (at the edge of a deep well) for water to reach his mouth, but it reaches him not, and the invocation of the disbelievers is nothing but an error (i.e. of no use).

It's probably because it exposes shia shirk.

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On 8/24/2017 at 9:11 AM, Mohammed72 said:

Is it big man. You so brave saying that behind a computer screen. A dare you say that to a Muslim in real life. And the picture of those 3 dogs on your screen, the same dogs who said you are not allowed to disrespect Aisha (RA). But as usual Shia hypocrisy.  

Now your going for insults when all I did was say something that is proven through the Quran. Truth hurts I know, there is overwhelming evidence that Aisha is getting double the punishment in hell, but your hypocrisy is over the top.

On 8/24/2017 at 9:11 AM, Mohammed72 said:

If the Imams only narrate Quran and Sunnah what is the difference between them and normal scholars.

Because they are infallible and our scholars are not? Do you want to discuss the infallibility issue? I can if you want to, it's an easy concept that any rational person can understand. 

On 8/24/2017 at 9:11 AM, Mohammed72 said:

Also, if the Ahlulbayt follow the Quran and Sunnah why dont we follow the Quran and the Sunnah directly instead of going through

Did the Prophet (saw) not say I leave behind you the Quran and my Ahlulbayt? Too much hypocricy in your posts, jesus...

On 8/24/2017 at 9:11 AM, Mohammed72 said:

42:38 And those who respond to their Lord and keep up prayer, and their rule is to take counsel among themselves, and who spend out of what We have given them.

That verse has nothing to do with designating a leader of the Muslims. Verse 38 lays emphasis on consultation in the administration of society hence the designation of the Chapter, Shura (“consultation”). consultation regards people’s social affairs rather than Injunctions and Divine Laws. In the Quran it says: “Indeed, I appoint you as the leader of people.” which means Imamat/caliphate/leadership depends upon Divine Will. 

And it is not permitted for believing man or believing woman to make a choice after God and His Messenger have decided in an affair. And whoever disobeys God and His Messenger would be in manifest error." The Holy Quran Chapter 33 verse 36.

"Certainly those who pledge allegiance to thee in fact they do that to God. The hand of God is above their hands. And whoever breaches a covenant he breaches against himself and whoever fulfills what he promises God God will grant him a great reward." The Holy Quran Chapter 48 verse 10.

Also, if a leader must be appointed through election of the Muslims, why didn't Umar have any elections to be appointed leader? Why did Abu Bakr make him leader instead of having an election for him? Than Uthman was elected through a shura, which isn't even considered an election since it was 5 people who chose him. The Sunni leadership is all one big mess and no proof to back it up. 

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4 minutes ago, Mohammed72 said:

I like how you cut out the beginning of the verse.

13:14 For Him (Alone) is the Word of Truth (i.e. none has the right to be worshipped but He). And those whom they (polytheists and disbelievers) invoke, answer them no more than one who stretches forth his hand (at the edge of a deep well) for water to reach his mouth, but it reaches him not, and the invocation of the disbelievers is nothing but an error (i.e. of no use).

It's probably because it exposes shia shirk.

Ignorants like you cannot reach to us. Given below is the verse from which I have quoted the phrase. Although the same phrase is present in your 13:14

 

قَالُوا أَوَلَمْ تَكُ تَأْتِيكُمْ رُسُلُكُم بِالْبَيِّنَاتِ قَالُوا بَلَى قَالُوا فَادْعُوا وَمَا دُعَاء الْكَافِرِينَ إِلَّا فِي ضَلَالٍ

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On 8/24/2017 at 8:26 AM, Munzir Ahmed said:

There isn't any hadith book written by ahlebayt themselves. Their narrations reached us via fallibles like zurarah, abu basir etc.

Likewise prophetic narrations of sunni books also reached us via fallibles like ibn abbas, ibn umar etc.

Both sides have fallible people in the chain and at the top of narrations one side has 12 Imams mostly while other has prophet himself most of the times.

So now tell which narrations carry more weight. 1. those narrated by 12 Imams or 2. those narrated by prophet himself?

The problem with the Sunni hadiths is that you take them for personalities who have had friction with the family of the Prophet(not all of them though). For example you have Umar and Aisha. Also these personalities are fallible who are nowhere near the Imams (as) in terms of knowledge.

Sunnis take hadith from anyone who happened to encounter the prophet. Does this mean that these hadiths are credible? What if a certain companion had poor understanding? what if he omits something? contradicts the prophet? etc.

That's why I am not surprised at some stupid and offensive narrations which attack the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). For example, many of your hadiths state that Prophet Muhammad had a demonic possession. Unlike Sunnis, we Shias don't take any hadith and say it is sahih. Our hadiths can't contradict the Quran and Ahlulbayt (as), otherwise we reject them.

No one understood the sayings and the teachings of Islam more than the Imams (as). It amazes me how you are willing to take any narration from anyone who happens to encounter Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). May Allah guide you.

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On 8/24/2017 at 7:42 AM, Mohammed72 said:

Ya isa? really. Can I say Ya Lat and Ya Uza as they were the names of 2 righteous Arabians. What makes you think that Isa (as) can hear your dua? Is he Allah to hear your dua?

Anyway, again you should not take hadiths out of context. Mawla is clearly love and victory. that why the prophet (s) make a dua:

O’ God, love those who love him, and be hostile to those who are hostile to him."

I don't pray to no one but Allah, I ask Allah in their name, or I ask them to plead on my behalf. Since they are alive and receiving sustenance with their Lord, but we perceive not.  

On judgment day you can play Arabic grammar and vocabulary with the Holy Prophet (pbuhhf) explain to him what mawla meant. But as you mentioned God be hostile to those who are hostile to him , what happens with the muaviyeh and Aisha ? We're they not hostile towards Imam Ali (as) ? What would be the reason that the Prophet (pbuhhf) felt the need to stop the pilgrims and make such an announcement ? In that heat ? You're missing the big picture and all the rest that build up to that point   

Is it Quran and ahlulbayt (as) or what? What did the Holy Prophet (pbuhhf) command us to hold on to? Explain that pls 

also davat zul ashira ? 

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@Mohammed72

"And most surely Abraham was among the Shi’a of him (i.e., Noah)”(Qur’an 37:83)

 وَإِنَّ مِن شِيعَتِهِ لَإِبْرَاهِيمَ ﴿الصافات: ٨٣﴾

Based on a parallel (Mutawatir) tradition upon whose authenticity all Muslims agree, the Messenger of Allah (S) informed his followers in several occasions that he would leave them two precious/weighty things and that if Muslims adhere to both of them, they will never go astray after him. They are the Book of Allah (Qur’an) and the Members of the House of the Prophet (Ahlul-Bayt), peace be upon them all.

It is narrated in Sahih Muslim as well as many other sources that:

Someday (after his last pilgrimage) the Messenger of Allah (S) stood to give us a speech beside a pond which is known as Khum (Ghadir Khum) which is located between Mecca and Medina. Then he praised Allah and reminded Him, and then said: "O’ people! Behold! It seems the time approached when I shall be called away (by Allah) and I shall answer that call. Behold! I am leaving for you two precious things. First of them is the book of Allah in which there is light and guidance...The other one is my Ahlul-Bayt. I remind you in the name of Allah about my Ahlul-Bayt. I remind you in the name of Allah about my Ahlul-Bayt. I remind you in the name of Allah about my Ahlul-Bayt. (three times)."

Sunni Reference:

• Sahih Muslim, Chapter of the virtues of the companions, section of the virtues of ‘Ali, 1980 Edition Pub. in Saudi Arabia, Arabic version, v 4, p1873, Tradition #36.

• And many others such as Sahih al-Tirmidhi, Musnad Ahmad (see below).

For the English version of Sahih Muslim, see Chapter CMXCVI, v4, p1286, Tradition #5920

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19 minutes ago, Mohammed72 said:

It's probably because it exposes shia shirk.

Accepting the command of Allah is not a shirk. Accepting the one, who was made by Allah as our Vali, is not a shirk. Obeying the command of Prophet is not a shirk.

Shirk is that where people elect Vali for themselves against the one who is nominated as Vali. Shirk is that where people disobey the clear commands of Prophet & refuse to accept Ali a.s as mowla.

 

قَالُوا أَوَلَمْ تَكُ تَأْتِيكُمْ رُسُلُكُم بِالْبَيِّنَاتِ قَالُوا بَلَى قَالُوا فَادْعُوا وَمَا دُعَاء الْكَافِرِينَ إِلَّا فِي ضَلَالٍ

So your Ibn e Saba & you will be with Abu Bakr & Umar. You will be biting your hands alongwith him 

Surah Al-Furqan, Verse 27:
وَيَوْمَ يَعَضُّ الظَّالِمُ عَلَىٰ يَدَيْهِ يَقُولُ يَا لَيْتَنِي اتَّخَذْتُ مَعَ الرَّسُولِ سَبِيلًا

And the day when the unjust one shall bite his hands saying: O! would that I had taken a way with the Apostle
(English - Shakir)

And you will be shouting with Umar like that:

Surah Al-Hadid, Verse 14:

يُنَادُونَهُمْ أَلَمْ نَكُن مَّعَكُمْ قَالُوا بَلَىٰ وَلَٰكِنَّكُمْ فَتَنتُمْ أَنفُسَكُمْ وَتَرَبَّصْتُمْ وَارْتَبْتُمْ وَغَرَّتْكُمُ الْأَمَانِيُّ حَتَّىٰ جَاءَ أَمْرُ اللَّهِ وَغَرَّكُم بِاللَّهِ الْغَرُورُ

 

They will cry out to them: Were we not with you? They shall say: Yea! but you caused yourselves to fall into temptation, and you waited and doubted, and vain desires deceived you till the threatened punishment of Allah came, while the archdeceiver deceived you about Allah.

(English - Shakir)

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@Mohammed72

If somebody calls himself a Shi’a, it is not due to any sectarianism, nor any innovation. It is because Qur’an has used the phrase for some of His best servants. The above verses that I mentioned in support of Shi’a, has used this term singular form (i.e., one group of followers).

The Messenger of Allah said to ‘Ali: "Glad tiding O ‘Ali! Verily you and your companions and your Shi’a (followers) will be in Paradise."

يا علي أبشر فإنك و أصحابك و شيعتك في الجنَّة

Sunni references:

1. Fadha’il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p655

2. Hilyatul Awliyaa, by Abu Nu’aym, v4, p329

3. Tarikh, by al-Khateeb al-Baghdadi, v12, p289

4. al-Awsat, by al-Tabarani

5. Majma’ al-Zawa’id, by al-Haythami, v10, pp 21-22

6. al-Darqunti, who said this tradition has been transmitted via numerous authorities.

7. al-Sawa’iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar Haythami , Ch. 11, section 1, p247

Thus the Messenger of Allah (S) used to say the phrase of "Shi’a of ‘Ali". This phrase is not something invented later! Prophet Muhammad (S) said that the TRUE followers of imam ‘Ali will go to Paradise, and this is a great felicity. Also Jabir Ibn Abdillah al-Ansari narrated that:

The Messenger of Allah (S) said: "The Shi’a of ‘Ali are the real victorious in the day of resurrection/rising"

شيعة علي هم الفائزون يوم القيامة

Sunni references:

• al-Manaqib Ahmad, as mentioned in:

• Yanabi al-Mawaddah, by al-Qundoozi al-Hanafi, p62

• Tafsir al-Durr al-Manthoor, by al-Hafidh Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, who quotes the tradition as follows: "We were with the Holy Prophet when ‘Ali came towards us. The Holy Prophet said: He and his Shi’a will aquire salvation on the day of judgment."

The "day of rising”may also refer to the day of rising of al-Mahdi (as). But in more general term, it means the day of judgment. Also it is narrated that:

The Messenger of Allah said: "O ‘Ali! On the Day of Judgment I shall resort to Allah and you will resort to me and your children will resort to you and the Shi’a will resort to them. Then you will see where they carry us. (i.e. to Paradise)"

Sunni reference: Rabi al-Abrar, by al-Zamakhshari

Furthermore, it is narrated that:

The Messenger of Allah said: "O ‘Ali! (On the day of Judgment) you and your Shi’a will come toward Allah well-pleased and well-pleasing, and there will come to Him your enemies angry and stiff-necked (i.e., their head forced up).

Sunni references:

• al-Tabarani, on the authority of Imam ‘Ali

• al-Sawa’iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Ch. 11, section 1, p236

A more complete version of the tradition which has also been reported by the Sunnis, is as follows:

Ibn Abbas (ra) narrated: 

When the verse "Those who believe and do righteous deeds are the best of the creation (Qur’an 98:7)”

was revealed, the Messenger of Allah (S) said to ‘Ali: "They are you and your Shi’a.”He continued: "O ‘Ali! (On the day of Judgment) you and your Shi’a will come toward Allah well-pleased and well-pleasing, and your enemies will come angry with their head forced up. ‘Ali said: "Who are my enemies?”The Prophet (S) replied: "He who disassociates himself from you and curses you. And glad tiding to those who reach first under the shadow of al-’Arsh on the day of resurrection.”‘Ali asked: "Who are they, O the Messenger of Allah?”He replied: "Your Shi’a, O ‘Ali, and those who love you."

Sunni references:

• al-Hafidh Jamaluddin al-Dharandi, on the authority of Ibn Abbas

• al-Sawa’iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar, Ch. 11, section 1, pp 246-247

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On 8/24/2017 at 9:53 AM, Salsabeel said:

Shirk is that where people elect Vali for themselves against the one who is nominated as Vali. Shirk is that where people disobey the clear commands of Prophet & refuse to accept Ali a.s as mowla.

قَالُوا أَوَلَمْ تَكُ تَأْتِيكُمْ رُسُلُكُم بِالْبَيِّنَاتِ قَالُوا بَلَى قَالُوا فَادْعُوا وَمَا دُعَاء الْكَافِرِينَ إِلَّا فِي ضَلَالٍ

Exactly 

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15 hours ago, Mohammed72 said:

The mockery of believers isn't something new and it is nothing compared to what Abu Bakr(RA), Umar(RA) and Uthman (RA) and the Shabas(RA) used to go through.

Now defend this brother... According to your sunni books you made Mr. Umar a co-author of quran... what kind of nonsense in this? I am sick of his innovations good bidah and all that crap. 

Quote

Hadith 1:395

Narrated 'Umar (bin Al-Khattab):

My Lord agreed with me in three things:

1. I said,"O Allah's Apostle, I wish we took the station of Abraham as our praying place (for some of our prayers). So came the Divine Inspiration: And take you (people) the station of Abraham as a place of prayer (for some of your prayers e.g. two Rakat of Tawaf of Ka'ba)". (2.125)

2. And as regards the (verse of) the veiling of the women, I said, 'O Allah's Apostle! I wish you ordered your wives to cover themselves from the men because good and bad ones talk to them.' So the verse of the veiling of the women was revealed.

3. Once the wives of the Prophet made a united front against the Prophet and I said to them, 'It may be if he (the Prophet) divorced you, (all) that his Lord (Allah) will give him instead of you wives better than you.' So this verse (the same as I had said) was revealed." (66.5).

 

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On 8/24/2017 at 9:38 AM, Hassan- said:

Now your going for insults when all I did was say something that is proven through the Quran. Truth hurts I know, there is overwhelming evidence that Aisha is getting double the punishment in hell, but your hypocrisy is over the top.

Because they are infallible and our scholars are not? Do you want to discuss the infallibility issue? I can if you want to, it's an easy concept that any rational person can understand. 

Did the Prophet (saw) not say I leave behind you the Quran and my Ahlulbayt? Too much hypocricy in your posts, jesus...

That verse has nothing to do with designating a leader of the Muslims. Verse 38 lays emphasis on consultation in the administration of society hence the designation of the Chapter, Shura (“consultation”). consultation regards people’s social affairs rather than Injunctions and Divine Laws. In the Quran it says: “Indeed, I appoint you as the leader of people.” which means Imamat/caliphate/leadership depends upon Divine Will. 

And it is not permitted for believing man or believing woman to make a choice after God and His Messenger have decided in an affair. And whoever disobeys God and His Messenger would be in manifest error." The Holy Quran Chapter 33 verse 36.

"Certainly those who pledge allegiance to thee in fact they do that to God. The hand of God is above their hands. And whoever breaches a covenant he breaches against himself and whoever fulfills what he promises God God will grant him a great reward." The Holy Quran Chapter 48 verse 10.

Also, if a leader must be appointed through election of the Muslims, why didn't Umar have any elections to be appointed leader? Why did Abu Bakr make him leader instead of having an election for him? Than Uthman was elected through a shura, which isn't even considered an election since it was 5 people who chose him. The Sunni leadership is all one big mess and no proof to back it up.

Yeah but the isnad is still the same. Contains fallible people.

The ahlulbayt follow the Quran and Sunnah but you just don't want to admit it. And obviously you will never find a shia saying Ya Allah but jesus. The saheeh narrations says I remind of my Ahlulbayt not hold on to my ahlulbayt.

About Umars election I already answered that on the first page. Go read it.

The verse 48:10 of surah al fath talks about the Sahaba (RA) pledge to the Prophet to protect him. 

I am making you a Imam/khalifah while talking to his PROPHETS. IMAM means LEADER.

Also, I would like to ask this shia logic to give tafseer of this verse:

28:41  And We made them leaders inviting to the Fire, and on the Day of Resurrection, they will not be helped.

Firaun is a Imam in shiasim as well. 

 

On 8/24/2017 at 9:38 AM, Salsabeel said:

Ignorants like you cannot reach to us. Given below is the verse from which I have quoted the phrase. Although the same phrase is present in your 13:14

قَالُوا أَوَلَمْ تَكُ تَأْتِيكُمْ رُسُلُكُم بِالْبَيِّنَاتِ قَالُوا بَلَى قَالُوا فَادْعُوا وَمَا دُعَاء الْكَافِرِينَ إِلَّا فِي ضَلَالٍ

Yeah that verse talks about  the dua of people when they are already in hell?

As for ghadir:

https://[Edited Out].com/2013/10/24/hadith-of-ghadir-khumm-a-sunni-perspective/

I don't see why I need to write a long article while you just copy and past.

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On 8/24/2017 at 10:00 AM, Mohammed72 said:

Yeah that verse talks about  the dua of people when they are already in hell?

You have thrown yourself into hell by saying Ameen on my prayers. And then you prayed for me for which I said:

وَمَا دُعَاء الْكَافِرِينَ إِلاَّ فِي ضَلاَلٍ

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Volume 4, Book 53, Number 325:

Narrated 'Aisha:

(mother of the believers) After the death of Allah 's Apostle Fatima the daughter of Allah's Apostle asked Abu Bakr As-Siddiq to give her, her share of inheritance from what Allah's Apostle had left of the Fai (i.e. booty gained without fighting) which Allah had given him. Abu Bakr said to her, "Allah's Apostle said, 'Our property will not be inherited, whatever we (i.e. prophets) leave is Sadaqa (to be used for charity)." Fatima, the daughter of Allah's Apostle got angry and stopped speaking to Abu Bakr, and continued assuming that attitude till she died. Fatima remained alive for six months after the death of Allah's Apostle.

She used to ask Abu Bakr for her share from the property of Allah's Apostle which he left at Khaibar, and Fadak, and his property at Medina (devoted for charity). Abu Bakr refused to give her that property and said, "I will not leave anything Allah's Apostle used to do, because I am afraid that if I left something from the Prophet's tradition, then I would go astray." (Later on) Umar gave the Prophet's property (of Sadaqa) at Medina to 'Ali and 'Abbas, but he withheld the properties of Khaibar and Fadak in his custody and said, "These two properties are the Sadaqa which Allah's Apostle used to use for his expenditures and urgent needs. Now their management is to be entrusted to the ruler." (Az-Zuhrl said, "They have been managed in this way till today.")

 Prophet (S) said:

من آذاها فقد آذاني ومن أغضبها فقد أغضبني من سرها فقد سرني ومن سائها فقد سائني

“Whoever harms her has harmed me and whoever angers her has made me angry;
Whoever makes her glad has made me glad, and whoever saddens her has made me sad.”

I don't know who named this old man Sadiq. 

Edited by Ron_Burgundy
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On 8/24/2017 at 9:43 AM, Ya_isa (as) said:

I don't pray to no one but Allah, I ask Allah in their name, or I ask them to plead on my behalf. Since they are alive and receiving sustenance with their Lord, but we perceive not.  

On judgment day you can play Arabic grammar and vocabulary with the Holy Prophet (pbuhhf) explain to him what mawla meant. But as you mentioned God be hostile to those who are hostile to him , what happens with the muaviyeh and Aisha ? We're they not hostile towards Imam Ali (as) ? What would be the reason that the Prophet (pbuhhf) felt the need to stop the pilgrims and make such an announcement ? In that heat ? You're missing the big picture and all the rest that build up to that point   

Is it Quran and ahlulbayt (as) or what? What did the Holy Prophet (pbuhhf) command us to hold on to? Explain that pls 

also davat zul ashira ? 

I love the way shias changed a conversation on Tahreef, shirk and imammah to arabic grammer.

In arafah more people would of heard the announcement.

The religion was completed in arafah 5:3 as in all sunni tafseers.

Also shia just means follower. If you want to use that hadith it still doesn't make anything clear. There are over 70 shia sub sects that will use the same hadith to prove that they are on the truth.

You still didn't answer my question if I can say Ya Lat and Ya Uza'? Using shia logic you can use a cow as a intermediate. 

On 8/24/2017 at 9:41 AM, ali_fatheroforphans said:

The problem with the Sunni hadiths is that you take them for personalities who have had friction with the family of Prophets(not all of them though). Like from the likes of Umar and Aisha. Also these personalities are fallible who don't have that understanding of Islam as our Imams (as) did.

Sunnis take hadith from anyone who happened to encountered the prophet. Does this mean that these hadiths are credible? What if a certain companion had poor understanding? what if he omits something? contradicts the prophet?

That's why I am not surprised at some stupid and offensive narrations which attack the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). For example, many of your hadith complain that Prophet Muhammad had a demonic possession. Unlike Sunnis, we Shias don't take any hadith and say  it is sahih.

No one understood the sayings and the teachings of Islam more than the Imams (as). It amazes me how you are willing to take any narration from someone who happens to encounter Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). May Allah guide you.

Shia hypocrisy. Shias toke all their hadith science from sunnis. Even the writer of wasial as shia said there is not 1 sahih shia hadith. Also, the chain of narrators to the Imam are still fallible which you do not seem to understand. You speak a lot with no evidence.  

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On 8/24/2017 at 10:05 AM, Ron_Burgundy said:

 Prophet (S) said:

من آذاها فقد آذاني ومن أغضبها فقد أغضبني من سرها فقد سرني ومن سائها فقد سائني

“Whoever harms her has harmed me and whoever angers her has made me angry;
Whoever makes her glad has made me glad, and whoever saddens her has made me sad.”

I don't know who named this old man Sadiq. 

You try and change the subject to Fadak as you have no answers to any of my questions. Open a new thread and we will discuss that their. 

Here's one of my questions:

Where is the shia isnad to the Quran?

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@Mohammed72

You have decided to take the crooked path. Now you have chosen to mixup the falsehood with truth, you have chosen to violate the commands of Allah:

Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 42:
وَلَا تَلْبِسُوا الْحَقَّ بِالْبَاطِلِ وَتَكْتُمُوا الْحَقَّ وَأَنتُمْ تَعْلَمُونَ

And do not mix up the truth with the falsehood, nor hide the truth while you know (it).
(English - Shakir)

Perhaps you are so ignorant that you have choose to recieve the lanat of Allah, Angels & those who curse:

Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 159:

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ يَكْتُمُونَ مَا أَنزَلْنَا مِنَ الْبَيِّنَاتِ وَالْهُدَىٰ مِن بَعْدِ مَا بَيَّنَّاهُ لِلنَّاسِ فِي الْكِتَابِ أُولَٰئِكَ يَلْعَنُهُمُ اللَّهُ وَيَلْعَنُهُمُ اللَّاعِنُونَ

Surely those who conceal the clear proofs and the guidance that We revealed after We made it clear in the Book for men, these it is whom Allah shall curse, and those who curse shall curse them (too).

(English - Shakir)

You must change your nick, Abu Jahal suits best to you.

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@Mohammed72

lol look at this takfiri coward dodging the questions haha love it.  Show your true colours 

okay you said that the Hadith means : God be hostile to whoever is hostile to him! 

Then in that case what happens to Aisha and muaviyeh ? And stop running away answer my question. 

You compare the ahlulbayt (as) and Prophet ISA (as) to idols !! The same ISA (as) who we are all waiting for to come along with Imam Mahdi (as) ! 

The Mahdi (as) will be from the ahlulbayt (as) the last caliph according to you for us Imam. But the first caliph is Abu bakr??! Haha how do you judge wow

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On 8/24/2017 at 10:12 AM, Mohammed72 said:

You try and change the subject to Fadak as you have no answers to any of my questions. Open a new thread and we will discuss that their. 

Here's one of my questions:

Where is the shia isnad to the Quran?

And you don't want to answer on usman being a co author of quran according to your books. I am just telling you that these things make me hate these people. If you have no respect for Prophets family i have no respect for you. If you really love these hypocrites I pray to Allah that you will be with them on the day of Judgement and I pray to Allah that make me @ali_fatheroforphans @Salsabeel @Qa'im @AfricanShia @IbnSina @shiaman14 all others shia brothers to be with Ahl-e-bayt.  

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On 8/24/2017 at 10:00 AM, Mohammed72 said:

Yeah but the isnad is still the same. Contains fallible people.

Ofcourse the isnad contains fallible people, what's your point? All hadiths for Sunni and Shia are transmitted to us through fallible people. Whether we should accept hadiths from them or not is a different topic.

On 8/24/2017 at 10:00 AM, Mohammed72 said:

The ahlulbayt follow the Quran and Sunnah but you just don't want to admit it. And obviously you will never find a shia saying Ya Allah but jesus.

Yes we know the ahlulbayt follow the Quran and the sunnah, what's your point?

On 8/24/2017 at 10:00 AM, Mohammed72 said:

The saheeh narrations says I remind of my Ahlulbayt not hold on to my ahlulbayt.

"Zayd said: 'O brother, by God, I have become aged and old and I have forgotten some of what I used to remember from the Messenger of Allah, upon whom be Allah's peace and benedictions. So accept what I narrate to you and as to what I don't, trouble me not regarding it.' Then he said: 'One day the Messenger of Allah, upon whom be Allah's peace and benedictions, addressed us near a pond called Khumm between Makkah and Madinah. He praised God and extolled Him and preached and reminded (us). Then he said, "Lo, O people, I am only a human being and I am about to respond to the messenger of my Lord [i.e. the call of death]. I am leaving behind two precious things (thaqalayn) among you. The first of the two is the Book of Allah. In it is guidance and light. So get hold of the Book of Allah and adhere to it." Then he urged and motivated (us) regarding the Book of Allah. Then he said, "And my Ahlul Bayt (family). I urge you to remember God regarding my Ahlul Bayt. I urge you to remember God regarding my Ahlul Bayt. I urge you to remember God regarding my Ahlul Bayt"'" ....

(Sahih Muslim, part 7, Kitab fada'il al-­Sahabah [Maktabat wa Matba’at Muhammad ‘Ali Subayh wa Awladuhu: Cairo] pp. 122-123.)

There are many versions of this hadith, and many of them are from Sunni books. Ahlulbayt was included with the Quran because just like how the Quran is their to guide us, the Ahlulbayt is their to guide us as well, so the Prophet included both and referred them as the "thaqalayn" (weighty things). There are plenty of sunni hadiths where the Prophet says we must obey them.

On 8/24/2017 at 10:00 AM, Mohammed72 said:

About Umars election I already answered that on the first page. Go read it.

Why don't you answer my question regarding the illegitimacy of leadership of Abu Bakr, which was my original question I asked you, than we can talk about Umar. You still can't bring one hadith or verse that support your sunni view of leadership. You just proved to everyone that Abu Bakr is an illegitimate leader, and his appointment was bid'ah that can't be supported view Quran or sunnah.

On 8/24/2017 at 10:00 AM, Mohammed72 said:

The verse 48:10 of surah al fath talks about the Sahaba (RA) pledge to the Prophet to protect him.

Okay what does this have to do with what we are talking about? Show me one hadith or verse in the Quran that supports Abu Bakr's leadership.

On 8/24/2017 at 10:00 AM, Mohammed72 said:

I am making you a Imam/khalifah while talking to his PROPHETS. IMAM means LEADER.

Imam has different contexts too. Imam can mean just a leader, or the prayer leader who leads prayer, or a divinely appointed leader. The ahlulbayt were the divinely appointed leaders because only Allah (awj) chooses a leader, not the people.

On 8/24/2017 at 10:00 AM, Mohammed72 said:

Also, I would like to ask this shia logic to give tafseer of this verse:

28:41  And We made them leaders inviting to the Fire, and on the Day of Resurrection, they will not be helped.

Firaun is a Imam in shiasim as well. 

Refer above, I explained the different contexts of Imams.

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13 minutes ago, Mohammed72 said:

 

Sermon 7: They have made Satan the master of their affairs...

About the hypocrites

ومن خطبة له (عليه السلام)

يذم فيها أتباع الشيطان

They1 have made Satan the master of their affairs, and he has taken them as partners. He has laid eggs and hatched them in their bosoms. He creeps and crawls in their laps. He sees through their eyes, and speaks with their tongues. In this way he has led them to sinfulness and adorned for them foul things like the action of one whom Satan has made partner in his domain and speaks untruth through his tongue.

اتَّخَذُوا الشَّيْطَانَ لاِمْرِهِمْ مِلاَكاً، وَاتَّخَذَهُمْ لَهُ أَشْرَاكاً، فَبَاضَ وَفَرَّخَ في صُدُورِهِمْ، وَدَبَّ وَدَرَجَ في حُجُورِهِمْ، فَنَظَرَ بِأَعْيُنِهِمْ، وَنَطَقَ بِأَلسِنَتِهِمْ، فَرَكِبَ بِهِمُ الزَّلَلَ، وَزَيَّنَ لَهُمُ الخَطَلَ، فِعْلَ مَنْ قَدْ شَرِكَهُ الشَّيْطَانُ في سُلْطَانِهِ، وَنَطَقَ بِالبَاطِلِ عَلى لِسَانِهِ!

Alternative Sources for Sermon 7

(1) Al-Zamakhshari, Rabi`, I, 109;

(2) Ibn al-'Athir, al-Nihayah, II, 50. (kh-t-l )

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-7-they-have-made-satan-master-their-affairs

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@Mohammed72 Why don't you stop playing around and refute my post below. Let's see what your hypocrisy has got to say.

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There are 2 types of Sunnis when it comes to the incident of Ghadir. First one is they have no knowledge. Second one is they think to themselves 'rationally how can the prophet die without appointing a successor, how can he leave the whole ummah without appointing a successor' and when they think about it they can't accept this fact. How can the man who came to guide mankind leave it for a group where 23 years ago were pagans to make there own decisions? It's only rational and logical that the prophet would appoint a successor. But these Sunnis don't bother to say anything because they're scared to lose their friends, family, wife and etc. sometimes it's not easy to come to the path of Ahlulbait.

What's funny is the sunnis always say 'the sahabas all loved each other'. How on earth can you even believe that. Only a rational human being will understand what a myth that is. Talha and zubair fighting each other at Battle of Jamal is love? Amar ibn `As fighting Amar ibn Yaser at battle of Siffin is love? Fatima Zahra (as) dying angry with Abu Bakr is love? Muawiya vs Ali (as) or Aisha vs Ali (as) is love? One example I'll give you to show you how the Sunnis contradict themselves, is the day of Ghadir. When the Prophet (s) stood in front of about 70 thousand people and said: “If I'm someone’s mawla then ‘Ali is his mawla too” Sunnis think the Prophet (s) said this because he resolved the fight between Khalid ibn Waleed and Ali, and nothing else, because they say the word 'Mawla' means 'friend'.  If you think the Prophet (s) said "Whoever i'm his friend, now ali's his friend too, I don't like you being enemies of Ali" than that must mean there was hatred to Ali right? If khalid ibn Waleed was already hating Ali (as) while the Prophet (s) is still alive, what's he going to do to Ali after the Prophet (s) dies?

The Prophet (s) doesn't make his own decisions or say 'in my opinion' when it came to appointing a successor in Ghadir, he waits for Allah to tell him. The Prophet (s) doesn't speak from his own will, he speaks of his revelation from his lord. Nor does he speak out of desire. It is naught but revelation that is revealed. [53-3-4]
When the Prophet (s) finished from Mecca and was heading to Medina, he receives the revelation from the Quran from Allah:
O Apostle! deliver what has been revealed to you from your Lord; and if you do it not, then you have not delivered His message, and Allah will protect you from the people; surely Allah will not guide the unbelieving people. [5-67]

Did you read what Allah said to the Prophet? He said if you don't preach this your message is finished! 22 years of messages by the Prophet and Allah says if you don't do what I commanded you to do, Islam is finished. All the things he delivered and taught the people:
Quran - check
salaat - check
marriage - check
hajj - check
fasting - check
enjoin the good - check
jihad - check
Mecca all his struggles and Medina all his struggles, than Allah says O Apostle! deliver what has been revealed to you from your lord; and if you do it not, then you have not delivered His message, In other words, if you don't your message is incomplete.
The part where he says "...and Allah will protect you from the people; surely Allah will not guide the unbelieving people."  Whatever this message is will bring hatred, envy, opposition, anger and etc.
This whole verse is telling the Prophet at Ghadir Khum to deliver his message.

Meaning of Mawla

Mawla can mean friend yes, but you have to understand the context of 'mawla'. If someone says 'you are the lion of the seas' does that mean he is a lion swimming in the sea? No, it means he is the master of the seas. The word 'mawla' must have context for it. Before the Prophet said "wa kunta mawla" he quoted a verse in the Quran "The Prophet has a greater claim on the faithful than they have on themselves..."[33:6], when the Prophet quoted that verse, now it shows that the context of 'mawla' didnt mean 'friendship', but it was about authority. In other words, the Prophet said IF im the first in authority, and now Ali is.

The Prophet than said, "Oh Allah, be a guardian to whoever takes Ali as his guardian and be an enemy for whoever takes Ali as his enemy, and whoever oppresses Ali put the oppression on them, and whoever helps Ali O' Allah help them, for the truth revolves around Ali" Then the prophet raised Ali's hand and the crowd started to congratulate them. Would everyone congratulate Ali just because the Prophet said "whoever is my friend ali is my friend" or would they congratulate Ali just because the Prophet settled the fight between Ali and Khalid ibn waleed?

Someday (after his last pilgrimage) the Messenger of Allah (S) stood to give us a speech beside a pond which is known as Khum (Ghadir Khum) which is located between Mecca and Medina. Then he praised Allah and reminded Him, and then said: "O’ people! Behold! It seems the time approached when I shall be called away (by Allah) and I shall answer that call. Behold! I am leaving for you two precious things. First of them is the book of Allah in which there is light and guidance...The other one is my Ahlul-Bayt. I remind you in the name of Allah about my Ahlul-Bayt. I remind you in the name of Allah about my Ahlul-Bayt. I remind you in the name of Allah about my Ahlul-Bayt. (three times)."

-Sahih Muslim, Chapter of the virtues of the companions, section of the virtues of ‘Ali, 1980 Edition Pub. in Saudi Arabia, Arabic version, v 4, p1873, Tradition #36.

The Messenger of Allah (S) said: "I am leaving for you two precious and weighty Symbols that if you adhere to BOTH of them you shall not go astray after me. They are, the Book of Allah, and my progeny, that is my Ahlul-Bayt. The Merciful has informed me that These two shall not separate from each other till they come to me by the Pool (of Paradise)."

-Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v5, pp 662-663,328, report of 30+ companions, with reference to several chains of transmitters.

Some of your reputable Sunni ulama’ have acknowledged that the primary meaning of 'mawla' is 'master'. Among them is Sibt Ibn Jauzi, who after giving ten meanings of the word in his Tadhkira al-Khawas, ch. II, p. 20, says that none of them except the tenth one corresponds with what the Holy Prophet meant to say. He says: "The hadith specifically means obedience; so the tenth meaning is correct, and it means 'mastery over others.' Hence, the hadith means 'of whomever I am the 'maula' (master) ‘Ali is also his 'maula' (master).'"

In the book Maraju'l-Bahrain Hafiz Abdu'l-Faraj Yahya Ibn Sa'id Saqafi interprets it in the same way. He narrates this hadith with his own sources from his leaders, who said that the Holy Prophet, holding ‘Ali by the hand, said: "Of whomsoever I am 'wali' or master over himself, ‘Ali is also his 'wali' or master over himself."

Sibt Ibn Jauzi says, "The saying of the Holy Prophet that ‘Ali has authority or is the master over the selves of all the believers clearly proves the Imamate or vicegerency of ‘Ali and that obedience to him is obligatory."

Many of your distinguished ulama’ have narrated the discussion ‘Ali led with the Muslims at Rahba al-Kufa (i.e., in the courtyard of the Kufa mosque). Following is a partial listing of those who recorded this event. Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal in his Musnad, Part 1, p. 129; Ibn Athir Jazari in Asadu'l-Ghaiba, vol. III and vol. V, pp. 206 and 276; Ibn Qutayba in Ma'arif, p. 194; Muhammad ibn Yusuf Ganji Shafi'i in Kifayatu't-Talib; Ibn Abi'l-Hadid in Sharh al-Nahju'l-Balagha, vol. I, p. 362; Hafiz Abu Nu'aim Isfahani in Hilyatu'l-Auliya, vol. V, p. 26; Ibn Hajar Asqalani in Isaba, vol. II, p. 408; Muhibu'd-din Tabari in Dhakha'ir al-Uqba, p. 67; Imam Abdu'r-Rahman Nisa'i in Khasa'isu'l-Alawi, p. 26; Allama Samhudi in Jawahiru'l-Iqdain; Shamsu'd-din Jazari in Asnu'l-Matalib, p. 3; Sulayman Balkhi Hanafi in Yanabiu'l-Mawadda, ch. 4; Hafiz Ibn Iqda in Kitabu'l-Wilaya: ‘Ali stood before the people and asked them to bear witness about what they had heard the Holy Prophet saying about him at Ghadir al-Khum. Thirty of the companions, including twelve Badris (those who had fought in the Battle of Badr), stood up and said that they saw on the Ghadir al-Khum day the Holy Prophet holding up Hazrat ‘Ali's hand and saying to the people: "Do you know that I have greater claim on the believers than they have on their own selves?" All of them said: "Yes." Then the Holy Prophet said: "Of whomsoever I am "maula" (master), this ‘Ali is his "maula" (master)."

Whatever interpretation you may give to the word "maula," it is an acknowledged fact that the companions made a promise to the Prophet on that day. There is complete concurrence between the two sects on this point. Then why did they break that pledge? Even if we suppose for the moment that by 'mawla' the Holy Prophet meant merely "friend" or "helper," for Allah's sake tell us if you think that friendship meant that they should set fire to ‘Ali's house, terrify his family, and threaten him with drawn swords. The Prophet gave clear instructions that the companions should pledge allegiance to ‘Ali. Do you think that he intended that they should therefore terrorize his own son-in-law? After the death of the Prophet, didn't they break their pledge? Did they, who broke the pledge, fulfill, in your opinion, the conditions of friendship? Did they read verse 15 of ch. 13, Al-Ra'd (the Thunder) of the Qur'an?
"And those who break the covenant of Allah after its confirmation and cut asunder that which Allah has ordered to be joined and make mischief in the land; (as for) those, upon them shall be a curse, and they shall have the evil (issue) of the abode." (13:25)

Do you know which aya came out after the day of Ghadir? surah 5 verse 3. Surah 5 verse 3 starts off of which food is haram, but an aya in the quran can talk about one topic and switch in the middle. the aya says "...This day have those who disbelieve despaired of your religion, so fear them not, and fear Me. This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion..." In other words, God perfected us our religion and completed his favour on us and chose islam as a religion for us with the wilaya of Ali ibn abi Talib. 

That verse was revealed right after the speech of Ghadir.

In short, as far as I know, thirty of your leading ulama’ have written in their authentic books and in their own commentaries that this Holy verse was revealed on the day of Ghadir al-Khum in regard to Amiru'l-Mu'minin ‘Ali. You might consider the circumstances. In that hot desert, where there was no protection for the travelers, the Holy Prophet gathered the whole ummah. People sat in the shade of the camels, with their feet covered, in the scorching heat of the sun. In these conditions the Prophet delivered a long address, which Khawarizmi and Ibn Mardawiyya in their Manaqib, and Tabari in his Kitabu'l-Wilaya and others have narrated. Does it make sense to think that the Prophet would require thousands of his followers to spend three days in the blazing desert to swear allegiance to ‘Ali merely to indicate that ‘Ali was their friend? In fact there was no one in the whole Community who did not already know the close association between the Holy Prophet and ‘Ali or had not heard about him. The revelation of the Qur'anic verse in question for the second time, particularly in different circumstances and with such serious instructions that people might be put to great inconvenience and suspense, could not simply mean that they should be friends of ‘Ali. Either the Holy Prophet's performance was meant to indicate great significance or it was frivolous. And certainly the Holy Prophet is free from all frivolous actions. It is reasonable to conclude therefore, that these arrangements were made not merely to indicate that people should befriend ‘Ali. The event, in fact, marked the completion of the Prophet's message: the establishment of the Imamate, the source of the ummah's guidance after the death of the Prophet.

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On 8/24/2017 at 10:28 AM, Hassan- said:

@Mohammed72 Why don't you stop playing around and refute my post below. Let's see what your hypocrisy has got to say.

This guys is not even answering my question of Usman being a co-author of quran according to bukhari. He is a brainwashed typical sunni muslims.  

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Which question did I doge. I said start a new post and I will answer it there.

Go back to my orginal post I talked about Tahreef, shirk and Imammah.

You all failed to answer any questions on tahreeef and shirk.

On imammah none of you can prove it using quran. Some tried attacking the Sahaba (RA) as if that somehow proves Imammah.

On 8/24/2017 at 10:25 AM, Ron_Burgundy said:

I don't understand your question. what do you want me to show you?

And this is the best part about it. NO knowledge about anything except cursing the Sahaba.

On 8/24/2017 at 10:28 AM, Ron_Burgundy said:

@Mohammed72 because of suuni people we have this stereotype in Islam. You guys need to stop your crap and get some education. 

And then they say Muslims are not educated. 

https://[Edited Out].com/2013/10/24/hadith-of-ghadir-khumm-a-sunni-perspective/

About ghadir, i know you didn't bother reading it. 

Let me ask this question again:

If someone believes in tahreef is he a kafir?

Keeping in mind the verses I quoted earlier. Go back and read.

On 8/24/2017 at 10:30 AM, Ron_Burgundy said:

This guys is not even answering my question of Usman being a co-author of quran according to bukhari. He is a brainwashed typical sunni muslims.  

I said go create a new post and I will answer it there.

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@Mohammed72 justify this

 

Hadith 1:395

Narrated 'Umar (bin Al-Khattab):

My Lord agreed with me in three things:

1. I said,"O Allah's Apostle, I wish we took the station of Abraham as our praying place (for some of our prayers). So came the Divine Inspiration: And take you (people) the station of Abraham as a place of prayer (for some of your prayers e.g. two Rakat of Tawaf of Ka'ba)". (2.125)

2. And as regards the (verse of) the veiling of the women, I said, 'O Allah's Apostle! I wish you ordered your wives to cover themselves from the men because good and bad ones talk to them.' So the verse of the veiling of the women was revealed.

3. Once the wives of the Prophet made a united front against the Prophet and I said to them, 'It may be if he (the Prophet) divorced you, (all) that his Lord (Allah) will give him instead of you wives better than you.' So this verse (the same as I had said) was revealed." (66.5).

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On 8/24/2017 at 10:30 AM, Ron_Burgundy said:

This guys is not even answering my question of Usman being a co-author of quran according to bukhari. He is a brainwashed typical sunni muslims.  

Yeah he is a brainwashed piece of filth. This guy reminds me how much Haydar Husayn was right about some converts 

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As for Lordship in Divine Legislation, we know that from the Islamic perspective and in accordance with the teachings which the Holy Our’ an presents, the origin of deviation in belief and action is Iblis which is the same being who had been created before Hazrat Adam (AS) and had been engaged in worshipping Allah for many years. Amirul-Mu’mineen (The commander of the faithful) Al- Imam ‘Ali (AS) says in "Nahjul- Balaghah":

“Iblis worshipped Allah for six thousand years, while we do not know whether it was the years of this world or of the years of the hereafter6

Iblis worshipped Allah for six thousand years and yet it is not known whether these years have been of the years of this world each year of which is 365 days or of the years of the other world each day of which is one thousand years. Anyhow, for a very long period of time which is not quite imaginable for us, Iblis had existed and had been worshipping Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى, so that the angels had though that Iblis was of the angels and had given it a place in their own ranks. But Iblis had a two-sided nature (namely, like man, it had free will) and had to be tested so that the level of its At-Tawhid and knowledge of Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى would emerge and it would become clear whether he had the necessary level of At-Tawhid or not.

The test of Iblis was realized through Hazrat Adam (AS), in the way that after the creation of Hazrat Adam (AS), Iblis was commanded (By Allah) to perform sajdah (prostration) to Adam (AS). But Iblis disobeyed this Divine command and because of this disobedience, it was driven away from the nearness to Allah and became the head of the inmates of hell and the rest of the inmates of hell will go to hell for following Iblis.

But why the one who has worshipped Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى in His Oneness is driven away from His nearness for one opposition and one sin and reaches such a level of wretchedness which is unthinkable for us? What is the secret behind the fact that so much worship is ignored and Iblis falls so low because of just one sin?

The analysis which on the basis of Islamic outlook can be made on this matter is that the sin of Iblis stemmed from defect in its At-Tawhid, manifested itself in the form of a practical disobedience (to Allah) and caused its fall. Because in reality Iblis did not believe in whatever Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى commands, His creatures should accept His command unquestionably, Iblis said;

..أَنَا خَيْرٌ مِنْهُ خَلَقْتَنِي مِنْ نَارٍ وَخَلَقْتَهُ مِنْ طِينٍ

“…I am better than he; You have created me out of fire, while him did you create out of dust (7:12).”

What is this command You are giving me, how should I prostrate to Adam while I am better than him? These words in fact arose from Iblis spirit of disbelief and unfaithfulness and were demonstrative of his inner and hidden kufr. The Holy Qur’an says:

..وَكَانَ مِنَ الْكَافِرِينَ

“…And he was one of the disbelievers (2:34)”

Such disbelief existed in Iblis before, but it had not yet emerged and turned into the stage of action. Iblis did not have belief up to the required level of At-Tawhid and did not believe that the right to command order and inhabit unquestionably belongs exclusively to Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى and whatever He commands has to be fulfilled: otherwise, Iblis believed in the One God and he also talked to Allah.

..خَلَقْتَنِي مِنْ نَارٍ وَخَلَقْتَهُ مِنْ طِينٍ

“…You have created me out of fire, while him did you create out of dust (7:12).”

Iblis even believed in Allah’s Lordship in creation and in the Resurrection Day.

..أَنْظِرْنِي إِلَىٰ يَوْمِ يُبْعَثُونَ

“…Respite me until the day when they are raised up (7:14)”.

So, Iblis had neither any defect in the principle of belief in Allah’s being the Creator, or in belief in Allah’s Lordship in creation and nor in belief in ma’ad. But still he falls so much! Why? Because he does not believe in Allah’s Lordship in Law-giving (Divine legislation) and docs not regard Allah’s command to be obeyed unquestionably, unless Allah’s command would be consistent with (Ibis’s) own thought and desire.

https://www.al-islam.org/tawhid-or-monotheism-muhammad-taqi-misbah-yazdi/part-1-tawhid-value-system-islam#position-lordship-divine-legislation-and-required-level-tawhid

*****

Event of Ghadir Khumm 

Quote

The Prophet held up the hand of 'Ali and said: 

"For whoever I am his Leader (mawla), 'Ali is his Leader (mawla)."

https://www.al-islam.org/ghadir/incident.htm

Edited by S.M.H.A.
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