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wmehar2

Perspective of Risala knowledge-Hadith validation

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@Sindbad05@haidermpr

Hey guys, if you're interested in continuing the discussion I created a new thread.

I'll start with reiterating points:

I'm not 100% certain, (not assert what is and what isn't) that the Prophet SAW knew of his Prophethood prior to him receiving revelation, which in a sense extends to he having all knowledge of Qu'ran and Allah SWT prior to.  I used 18:110 and 2:285 to support this idea.

Upon which Sindbad05 responds with 2:253.

Haidermpr  brings up a point why certain prophets received imamate, and name mentioning over others. 

He also asked about my view concerning how does one pray if Hadith are troublesome for me to accept.  Did I leave anything out?

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2 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

@Sindbad05@haidermpr

Hey guys, if you're interested in continuing the discussion I created a new thread.

I'll start with reiterating points:

I'm not 100% certain, (not assert what is and what isn't) that the Prophet SAW knew of his Prophethood prior to him receiving revelation, which in a sense extends to he having all knowledge of Qu'ran and Allah SWT prior to.  I used 18:110 and 2:285 to support this idea.

Upon which Sindbad05 responds with 2:253.

Haidermpr  brings up a point why certain prophets received imamate, and name mentioning over others. 

He also asked about my view concerning how does one pray if Hadith are troublesome for me to accept.  Did I leave anything out?

Yup sure, I am interested. 

There are also verses in Quran which says: "believers are hypocrites are not equal like day and night are not equal". 

There are certain similarities between humans and certain differences.

1. We both are creation so if I say that a believer is a creation like a hypocrite, it does validate my point.

2. However, they both are different spiritually and in excellence, believer is not a creation like hypocrite, he is at higher status.

3. All Prophets are to be respected equally because they are signs of Allah AWJ but there are various grades such as some were sent with Divine Books, others with manuscripts and remaining without books and their duty was to teach the previous books and manuscripts.

Did I left anything to discuss ? if I left, I am waiting for your response. 

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1 hour ago, Sindbad05 said:

Yup sure, I am interested. 

There are also verses in Quran which says: "believers are hypocrites are not equal like day and night are not equal". 

There are certain similarities between humans and certain differences.

1. We both are creation so if I say that a believer is a creation like a hypocrite, it does validate my point.

2. However, they both are different spiritually and in excellence, believer is not a creation like hypocrite, he is at higher status.

3. All Prophets are to be respected equally because they are signs of Allah AWJ but there are various grades such as some were sent with Divine Books, others with manuscripts and remaining without books and their duty was to teach the previous books and manuscripts.

Did I left anything to discuss ? if I left, I am waiting for your response. 

I don't really have any contentions with your three points here.  I guess this is in response to where I read in a few verses "We made no distinction between them" in reference to the prophets in the Qur'an.   So what's missing is knowing  with regards to WHAT "distinction between them" or it's context.   Is Allah swt talking spiritually?  -  in which case, are we making assumptions?

My real highlight was showing in the Qur'an that Allah SWT commanded Muhammad SAW to say, I am human man like you and Allah SWT inspired to me that there is no God but God,  which seems indicative the Prophet SAW did not know this Knowledge prior to revelation which indicates maybe he wasn't born with this knowledge.

Maybe he was chosen from before he was born, as in he was destined, but he wasn't cognizant before nor after until day of revelation.

the definition of Inspired, arising from some external creative impulse, or breathed in.  Which means the Prophet SAW did not have this knowledge of the Oneness of Allah SWT, it had to be breathed into him or inspired into him.

Edited by wmehar2

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1 minute ago, wmehar2 said:

I don't really have any contentions with your three points here.  I guess this is in response to where I read in a few verses "We made no distinction between them" in reference to the prophets in the Qur'an.   So what's missing is knowing  with regards to WHAT "distinction between them" or it's context.   Is Allah swt talking spiritually?  -  in which case, are we making assumptions?

My real highlight was showing in the Qur'an that Allah SWT commanded Muhammad SAW to say, I am human man like you and Allah SWT inspired to me that there is no God but God,  which seems indicative the Prophet SAW did not know this Knowledge prior to revelation which indicates maybe he wasn't born with this knowledge.

Maybe he was chosen from before he was born, as in he was destined, but he wasn't cognizant before nor after.

hahahaha, your assumptions are contrary to history, Hazrat Abu Talib a.s said that I never saw the face of Muhammad in childhood to be dirty, he never used to play with the kids and always used to comb his hair and when guests used to visit us, he used to sit in corner without causing any disturbance and when he was child of 3 years age, he used to say to Abu Talib a.s to turn around to change dress for sleeping and in that minor age, he did not use to change clothes in front of his uncle, 

So, if all these things are not extra-ordinary for you then what can I say.....and tell me where does in the above verse God says in the entire Quran that O! Muhammad, you were not a prophet and you were in ignorance ? 

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6 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

I don't really have any contentions with your three points here.  I guess this is in response to where I read in a few verses "We made no distinction between them" in reference to the prophets in the Qur'an.   So what's missing is knowing  with regards to WHAT "distinction between them" or it's context.   Is Allah swt talking spiritually?  -  in which case, are we making assumptions?

My real highlight was showing in the Qur'an that Allah SWT commanded Muhammad SAW to say, I am human man like you and Allah SWT inspired to me that there is no God but God,  which seems indicative the Prophet SAW did not know this Knowledge prior to revelation which indicates maybe he wasn't born with this knowledge.

Maybe he was chosen from before he was born, as in he was destined, but he wasn't cognizant before nor after.

If you still want to read about how Prophet PBUHHP was in Childhood then he has left his example in one of his sons through the permission of Allah, Read about Hazrat Imam Muhammad Taqi a.s who was a 5 years old when His father Imam Reza a.s was martyred by Mamun Rasheed and He was placed in a debate so that Mamun could prove to the world that the Imamate is not truth but Allah AWJ insulted him and Imam Muhammad Taqi a.s defeated his all scholars. 

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Just now, Sindbad05 said:

hahahaha, your assumptions are contrary to history, Hazrat Abu Talib a.s said that I never saw the face of Muhammad in childhood to be dirty, he never used to play with the kids and always used to comb his hair and when guests used to visit us, he used to sit in corner without causing any disturbance and when he was child of 3 years age, he used to say to Abu Talib a.s to turn around to change dress for sleeping and in that minor age, he did not use to change clothes in front of his uncle, 

So, if all these things are not extra-ordinary for you then what can I say.....and tell me where does in the above verse God says in the entire Quran that O! Muhammad, you were not a prophet and you were in ignorance ? 

As I mentioned before, I'm weary of Hadiths.  Even so, qualities like this could Allah SWT creating them, or an embellishment of facts in admiration of the Prophet SAW, I can't accept these to be taken in as fact.

I could tell you of kids these days who don't play with others, comb hair when visited, sit in corners and cause no disturbance at 3, heck I was one of those kids and many are.  I don't find it that extraordinary.  What I do find extraordinary was what I mentioned before, his character, integrity, honesty, virtues which I can call a miracle or something above normal human quality that's befitting of Prophethood. 

The Qur'an must first say to me the ,O Muhammad! We placed you above all others, or made you the best of Adams creation.  However, it doesn't.  

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1 minute ago, wmehar2 said:

As I mentioned before, I'm weary of Hadiths.  Even so, qualities like this could Allah SWT creating them, or an embellishment of facts in admiration of the Prophet SAW, I can't accept these to be taken in as fact.

I could tell you of kids these days who don't play with others, comb hair when visited, sit in corners and cause no disturbance at 3, heck I was one of those kids and many are.  I don't find it that extraordinary.  What I do find extraordinary was what I mentioned before, his character, integrity, honesty, virtues which I can call a miracle or something above normal human quality that's befitting of Prophethood. 

The Qur'an must first say to me the ,O Muhammad! We placed you above all others, or made you the best of Adams creation.  However, it doesn't.  

But neither those kids nor you could compete with scholars and defeat them but Imam Muhammad Taqi did. 

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4 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

The Qur'an must first say to me the ,O Muhammad! We placed you above all others, or made you the best of Adams creation.  However, it doesn't.  

About this please read Quran where Allah says:

1. You are on the highest pillar of morality.

2. It also says that O Muhammad! How beautiful Allah has created you and it speaks of shoulders of Prophet and hair of Prophet pbuhhp. Without a doubt if Allah AWJ praises someone, he must be most beautiful of all. Never has Quran showed such proud while mentioning Yusuf a.s but for Muhammad pbuhhp it did praise.

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6 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

Imam Muhammad al Baqir a.s said: "We imams are same whether we be infant,  young or old".

But I am not a Shia' my good brother.  The sayings of Imams according what you say to me, do not hold weight.  I have no verification if they're true or not 

Just as I have no verification of many Hadith.  Which may go to @haidermpr's question.  I hold many Sunni hadiths to be very questionable, and I can't accept them as fact

He raises the point here:

----------------------------------

Brother 

do you think that we are able to understand Quran without support of hadiths and narrations?

whole Islamic history and hadith collection are contradictory in nature.

Let us see just example of Salat-prayer

there are too many differences among different sects. How you are performing prayers as there is no clear cut procedure given in Quran. 

Kindly enlighten me.

------------------------------------

No, I think we can't understand Qu'ran because of these hadiths and narrations, except for ones that corroborate with them.  In many instances I see contradictions with Quran and the disparity between hadiths from varying sects has literally torn it apart.

I follow how I pray according to how I grew up learning it, and pray Allah SWT accepts my intentions because I will try my absolute hardest to discern the truth and try to validate what was the real way to pray, and never find an acceptable validated answer with enough evidence.   So I stick to what is important, since the Qu'ran doesn't send a lot of time talking about the physical movements/words of prayer, it must mean Allah SWT left that to us through Muhammad SAW.  Which we all do different subtle ways, which must be OK.

in the Qu'ran Allah SWT promised to preserve the Qu'ran and his message, and took that away from us.  He gave no such promise to hadiths, lessons of Imams and etc.  And it is these same Hadiths we split ourselves, fight, kill, judge and spew hate towards each other.

Take out the Hadith, I see less reason for divisions. Less room for ambiguity.  But this is just my personal opinion. @haidermpr

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2 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

But I am not a Shia' my good brother.  The sayings of Imams according what you say to me, do not hold weight.  I have no verification if they're true or not 

Just as I have no verification of many Hadith.  Which may go to @haidermpr's question.  I hold many Sunni hadiths to be very questionable, and I can't accept them as fact

He raises the point here:

----------------------------------

Brother 

do you think that we are able to understand Quran without support of hadiths and narrations?

whole Islamic history and hadith collection are contradictory in nature.

Let us see just example of Salat-prayer

there are too many differences among different sects. How you are performing prayers as there is no clear cut procedure given in Quran. 

Kindly enlighten me.

------------------------------------

No, I think we can't understand Qu'ran because of these hadiths and narrations, except for ones that corroborate with them.  In many instances I see contradictions with Quran and the disparity between hadiths from varying sects has literally torn it apart.

I follow how I pray according to how I grew up learning it, and pray Allah SWT accepts my intentions because I will try my absolute hardest to discern the truth and try to validate what was the real way to pray, and never find an acceptable validated answer with enough evidence.   So I stick to what is important, since the Qu'ran doesn't send a lot of time talking about the physical movements/words of prayer, it must mean Allah SWT left that to us through Muhammad SAW.  Which we all do different subtle ways, which must be OK.

in the Qu'ran Allah SWT promised to preserve the Qu'ran and his message, and took that away from us.  He gave no such promise to hadiths, lessons of Imams and etc.  And it is these same Hadiths we split ourselves, fight, kill, judge and spew hate towards each other.

Take out the Hadith, I see less reason for divisions. Less room for ambiguity.  But this is just my personal opinion. @haidermpr

You have to be shia for accepting truth?  That's not a reason.

Ok let me see if you are a Muslim or not. Is it not in Quran that Allah says that Jesus a.s said I give you news of a Prophet whose name is Ahmed. So, Jesus accepts him prophet before birth but you don't. 

If you don't accept this, I am out of here. Can't do anything except pray for you. 

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8 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

1. You are on the highest pillar of morality.

2. It also says that O Muhammad! How beautiful Allah has created you and it speaks of shoulders of Prophet and hair of Prophet pbuhhp. Without a doubt if Allah AWJ praises someone, he must be most beautiful of all. Never has Quran showed such proud while mentioning Yusuf a.s but for Muhammad pbuhhp it did praise

Would you do me a favor and please cite these passages in the Qur'an. 

I cannot find them. 

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4 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

You have to be shia for accepting truth?  That's not a reason.

Ok let me see if you are a Muslim or not. Is it not in Quran that Allah says that Jesus a.s said I give you news of a Prophet whose name is Ahmed. So, Jesus accepts him prophet before birth but you don't. 

If you don't accept this, I am out of here. Can't do anything except pray for you. 

Of course. As I told you, I accept everything in the Qur'an.  61:6

 “And when, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the messenger of God (sent) to you, confirming the Law before me, and giving Glad Tidings of a Messenger to come after me (Arabic: min ba'di), whose name shall be Ahmad." But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, "this is evident sorcery!"”

Like I said there's a difference from being DESTINED /APPOINTED to be a Prophet VS Always being a prophet since day of birth.

Prophethood was destined and known to Allah SWT and to those who warned.  Prophethood came once Allah SWT gave revelation.

Muhammad SAW was NOT YET a prophet when he married Lady Khadija Raa at 25 years of age, but he was destined to be one.  Only until revelation came at age 40, did he become or realize the destiny of Prophethood.  He did not have ultimate knowledge until then.  This is my point.

Edited by wmehar2

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3 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

Would you do me a favor and please cite these passages in the Qur'an. 

I cannot find them. 

[Shakir 61:6] And when Isa son of Marium said: O children of Israel! surely I am the messenger of Allah to you, verifying that which is before me of the Taurat and giving the good news of an Messenger who will come after me, his name being Ahmad, but when he came to them with clear arguments they said: This is clear magic.

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@wmehar2

Ok let me ask you last question before going. Tell me you believe that Prophet was not prophet before and he made mistakes according to sunnis. 

If a person borns and says that he is last prophet and not Muhammad pbuhhp and he did mistake in telling it and Quran also is depraved, how would you refuse him? 

Since he refuses everything which appears true according to your belief. How would you solve such situation? 

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Although all the prophets of Allah are equally truthful and holy, but in the same way that some signs are clearer and contain deeper messages than others, so Allah's messengers are of different ranks. The particular mention of Musa and Isa is to point out their distinguished positions as the reformers. Musa was directly addressed by Allah, and Isa was assisted by the ruhul qudus (the holy spirit). Both these prophets of Allah glorified the Holy Prophet and gave to the people the glad tidings of his arrival. Refer to the text of the Bible (Deut 18: 5, 18, 19; Acts 3: 22 to 25; John 14: 16, 17; John 16: 7 to 14) mentioned in the commentary of al Baqarah: 40.

It would be a false and contradictory statement if it was said that the above-noted verses of the Old and the New Testaments refer to Jesus, because Isa himself, like Musa, gave the news of the advent of the Holy Prophet in John 14: 16, 17 and John 16: 7 to 14.

Aqa Mahdi Puya says:

In addition to the guiding statements of the two distinguished prophets of Allah - Musa to whom Allah spoke, and Isa to whom He gave clear miracles and strengthened with the holy spirit. there are several verses in the Quran, according to which the Holy Prophet occupies the highest place in the company of all the prophets of Allah. He is the superior-most messenger of Allah. The glory of the divinity of the Lord manifests, reflects and radiates in him to maximum perfection. Endowed with perfection, he was sent as a "mercy unto the worlds" (Ambia: 107). The other prophets were sent to guide a particular people in a particular place (Matthew 10: 5 and 6), therefore, in view of their limited mission, they are not on the level of the Holy Prophet who was sent to guide and discipline the whole mankind for all times (Saba: 28). As the Holy Prophet is the best of all the prophets of Allah, a distinguished group among his followers has been raised up by Allah as khayra ummatin, the best of all the people (see commentary of verse 110 of Ali Imran).

To understand kalamallaku (Allah spoke) it is necessary to refer to verse 51 of al Shura:

"It is not to any mortal (man) that Allah should speak to him except by inspiration or through (from behind) a veil,"

Allah does not speak in the sense attributed to the created beings who use the mouth and the tongue to produce sound. The veil can be anything which can be caused to produce sound.

This verse implies that a large number of messengers were sent by Allah. He made some of these messengers to excel others, and some of them He exalted in rank. In the end He sent the best of them all, the Holy Prophet, to guide mankind on the right path and prevent the people of the world, in all times, from going astray in the direction of Shaytan, their avowed enemy. There is no compulsion in religion. It is not the plan of the almighty that guidance should be imposed upon any individual or community. There is complete freedom to any person who wants to go astray. Allah does not keep any one on the right path under duress if he himself, through reason and intelligence, does not make willing efforts to walk on the right path. The followers of the prophets, including the followers of the Holy Prophet, fought one another, went astray and followed the path of the devil as soon as the divinely commissioned guides, with clear signs and arguments, had left them. If Allah had willed, this straying could be stopped. He brings about what He wills. He could guide the people without the agency of the prophets, but He has given freedom to man to use reason and intelligence to distinguish between good and evil and make efforts to do good and earn reward, or make mischief and collect punishment. The door of guidance is kept open for those who sincerely seek the true direction.

As for those who strive in Us, We certainly show them our paths. (Ankabut: 69).

To fulfil this promise, the merciful Lord has established the divine institution of imamat as soon as the risalat came to an end-Ali ibna abi Talib is the first and Muhammad al Mahdi, the living Imam, is the last of the twelve divinely commissioned and infallible holy guide-leaders.

To keep himself on the right path, man has been asked to seek Allah's help by reciting al Fatihah in every salat. See the commentary of verses 5 to 7 of al Fatihah.

The guidance has been made known. Now whosoever goes right, it is only for the good of his own soul that he goes right, and whosoever errs, errs only to hurt himself. Each soul earns only on its own account. According to the following verses, man has been given an independent free will to act:

BAQARAH : 48

AN-AM : 165

HIJR : 42

BANI ISRAIL : 7 and 15

ANKABUT : 6

FATIR : 17

ZUMAR : 7

HA MIM : 46

DAHR : 2

The individual differences in the prophets of Allah are on account of the level of intelligence and the needs of the people amongst whom they were sent, to show them what was right and what was wrong. The manner of receiving the inspiration from Allah and the nature and limitation of every prophet's mission were determined in accordance with the ability of the people to understand and grasp the message. The last message of Allah was perfect, complete, final and conclusive. Therefore, the prophet who was chosen to deliver the final message was the most superior of all the prophets. He was not only the last prophet but also the foremost in total submission to the will of Allah.

Musa was honoured with the divine speech, Isa with the holy spirit, Ibrahim with shuhud (vision), but the Holy Prophet had the distinction of receiving the divine inspiration and revelation through all the mediums-see verse 43 of al Anfal and verse 60 of Bani Israil for vision in dreams, verse I of Bani Israil for vision in wakefulness; verses 192 to 195 of al Shu-ara, verse 52 of al Shura for the holy spirit; verses 1 to 16 of al Najm and verses 1 to 4 of al Rahman for direct instructions .

This verse clearly states that the discord and strife among the followers of the prophets is due to belief (iman) and disbelief (kufr), therefore, the apologetic attempt of some of the theologians to justify the dissension and conflict between the various religions or the sects of each religion as the outcome of ijtihad or discretion is based upon conjecture, and therefore, untenable.

According to Quran, such differences between the people of the scriptures is due to their rebellious attitude against the clearly manifested will and command of Allah. See verse 19 of Ali Imran and verses 13 of 14 of al Shura. The responsibility for wrongdoing rests with the man; and whatever good he does is from Allah.

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5 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

Of course. As I told you, I accept everything in the Qur'an.  61:6

 “And when, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the messenger of God (sent) to you, confirming the Law before me, and giving Glad Tidings of a Messenger to come after me (Arabic: min ba'di), whose name shall be Ahmad." But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, "this is evident sorcery!"”

Like I said there's a difference from being DESTINED /APPOINTED to be a Prophet VS Always being a prophet since day of birth.

Prophethood was destined and known to Allah SWT and to those who warned.  Prophethood came once Allah SWT gave revelation.

Muhammad SAW was NOT YET a prophet when he married Lady Khadija Raa at 25 years of age, but he was destined to be one.  Only until revelation came at age 40, did he become or realize the destiny of Prophethood.  He did not have ultimate knowledge until then.  This is my point.

When Allah swt states in the glorious Quran in (Surah Al-Kafirun) and "Say: "He is Allah One." Was he Already "one" or when he addressed appointed his revelation he was the one lord? 

 

Salam akhi

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5 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

Of course. As I told you, I accept everything in the Qur'an.  61:6

 “And when, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the messenger of God (sent) to you, confirming the Law before me, and giving Glad Tidings of a Messenger to come after me (Arabic: min ba'di), whose name shall be Ahmad." But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, "this is evident sorcery!"”

Like I said there's a difference from being DESTINED /APPOINTED to be a Prophet VS Always being a prophet since day of birth.

Prophethood was destined and known to Allah SWT and to those who warned.  Prophethood came once Allah SWT gave revelation.

Quran doesnt say anywhere you were destined to be a Prophet but it says, we sent you as Prophet in Mecca. 

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[Shakir 2:285] The messenger believes in what has been revealed to him from his Lord, and (so do) the believers; they all believe in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers; We make no difference between any of His messengers; and they say: We hear and obey, our Lord! Thy forgiveness (do we crave), and to Thee is the eventual course.
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 2:285]

Please study this verse with reference to the commentary of verse 253 of this surah and verse 55 of Bani Israil.

All the heavenly scriptures are from the creator Lord. There are differences between the prophets but no differentiation. The message is the same: worship Allah, and trust in His all encompassing mercy, as transmitted through His messengers. The true faithful believe in Allah, His messengers, His angels and His books. Please refer to verse 177 of this surah. Islam is a universal religion. (286)

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4 minutes ago, SeyedMoAbbas said:

When Allah swt states in the glorious Quran in (Surah Al-Kafirun) and "Say: "He is Allah One." Was he Already "one" or when he addressed appointed his revelation he was the one lord? 

 

Salam akhi

Walaikum As Salaam,

Interesting question but where in Surah al Kafirun does Allah say, "Say: He is Allah One"?  I'm sure in other parts of the Qur'an there is something along those lines.

It is clear Allah SWT was one before that point in this case.  It is knowledge not yet known to a group.  Though I don't think we can assume this extends towards Prophetship or destiny, nor how rules change from one Shariah to another (jewish to Christian to Islamic shariah changes).  Since one thing may be right in one time versus another.

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1 minute ago, wmehar2 said:

Walaikum As Salaam,

Interesting question but where in Surah al Kafirun does Allah say, "Say: He is Allah One"?  I'm sure in other parts of the Qur'an there is something along those lines.

It is clear Allah SWT was one before that point in this case.  It is knowledge not yet known to a group.  Though I don't think we can assume this extends towards Prophetship or destiny, nor how rules change from one Shariah to another (jewish to Christian to Islamic shariah changes).  Since one thing may be right in one time versus another.

My bad -Surah al ikhlas apologies..

 

 

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@Sindbad05 When Allah intended to create the creatures, He first created the "Noor" (Light) of Muhammad. Al-Qastalani (in Al Mawahibu'l-Ladunniyah, vol. 1, pp. 5, 9, 10) has quoted the Prophet's traditions to this effect as transmitted through Jabir ibn 'Abdullah al-Ansari and 'Ali (a.s.). The well-known historian al-Mas'udi (in his Maruju 'dh-dhahab) quotes a lengthy tradition from 'Ali (a.s.) to the effect that when Allah created, first of all, the Light of Muhammad, He said to it: "You are My chosen one and the Trustee of My Light and Guidance.

It is because of you that I am going to create the earth and the skies, lay down reward and punishment, and bring into being the Garden and the Fire." Then the tradition goes on to speak about the Family of the Prophet, about creation of the angels, of the souls, of the world, of the covenant taken from the souls which combined the belief in the One God with acceptance of Muhammad's Prophethood.
 
This is why Ibn 'Abbas narrates saying that the Prophet said: "I was Prophet when Adam was between soul and body (i.e. when Adam's creation was in its preliminary stages)" (at-Tabarani, Al-Mu'jjam al-Kabir; Al Khasa'is al-Kubra, vol.1, p.4).

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9 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

@wmehar2

Ok let me ask you last question before going. Tell me you believe that Prophet was not prophet before and he made mistakes according to sunnis. 

If a person borns and says that he is last prophet and not Muhammad pbuhhp and he did mistake in telling it and Quran also is depraved, how would you refuse him? 

Since he refuses everything which appears true according to your belief. How would you solve such situation? 

Quran says in Surah Munafiqoon: "Do not follow a sinner or an ungrateful person".

So, how do you consider that Allah will choose a person for prophethood who lived a life of ignorance and violates his law by saying that now follow prophet but Ops according to you prophet makes mistakes again. 

Allah AWJ is not weak to design his message in a faulty way so that people may get ignorant while Allah says guidance is from Allah. 

W.salam brother 

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7 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

Walaikum As Salaam,

Interesting question but where in Surah al Kafirun does Allah say, "Say: He is Allah One"?  I'm sure in other parts of the Qur'an there is something along those lines.

It is clear Allah SWT was one before that point in this case.  It is knowledge not yet known to a group.  Though I don't think we can assume this extends towards Prophetship or destiny, nor how rules change from one Shariah to another (jewish to Christian to Islamic shariah changes).  Since one thing may be right in one time versus another.

"it is knowledge not yet known to a group" But it also says in the noble Quran in Chapter Az_zuman verse 4 

"

:

If Allah desire to take a son to Himself, He will surely choose those He pleases from what He has created. Glory be to Him: He is Allah, the One, the Subduer (of all)."

So how do we know if the prophet saw was an ordinary man until  he was appointed akhi? 

 

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2 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

Quran says in Surah Munafiqoon: "Do not follow a sinner or an ungrateful person".

So, how do you consider that Allah will choose a person for prophethood who lived a life of ignorance and violates his law by saying that now follow prophet but Ops according to you prophet makes mistakes again. 

Allah AWJ is not weak to design his message in a faulty way so that people may get ignorant while Allah says guidance is from Allah. 

W.salam brother 

And when Allah saved Hazrat Musa from Pharo it was decided that he is going to be a prophet and prophets do not commit sin. Rasool announced that he was prophet when he was 40. He didn't become prophet when was 40. he was born prophet. He was even praying before he announced his prophethood. 

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Just now, SeyedMoAbbas said:

"it is knowledge not yet known to a group" But it also says in the noble Quran in Chapter Az_zuman verse 4 

"

:

If Allah desire to take a son to Himself, He will surely choose those He pleases from what He has created. Glory be to Him: He is Allah, the One, the Subduer (of all)."

So how do we know if the prophet saw was an ordinary man until  he was appointed akhi? 

 

Yes, I should be careful and emphasize, I do believe he was an extraordinary man, and a special person.  However I do not think there's enough evidence to support that he was all knowledgeable and lived the Quran before he was appointed/revealed, brother.  

I'm sure Prophets had baseline excellence/qualities, some of which exceeded other Prophets in some areas, while others not so much.  Just like how humans are different from each other, yet equal.  an earlier point made here is that we are all equal as creation.

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Just now, Ron_Burgundy said:

And when Allah saved Hazrat Musa from Pharo it was decided that he is going to be a prophet and prophets do not commit sin. Rasool announced that he was prophet when he was 40. He didn't become prophet when was 40. he was born prophet. He was even praying before he announced his prophethood. 

I slightly differ here Moses was a Prophet in the belly of her mother. However,  his travel from Egypt to Madain and from Madain to Egypt has lessons for Muslims to learn.

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4 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

I slightly differ here Moses was a Prophet in the belly of her mother. However,  his travel from Egypt to Madain and from Madain to Egypt has lessons for Muslims to learn.

Thats what i meant prophet is born prophet. 

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13 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:
28 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

@wmehar2

Ok let me ask you last question before going. Tell me you believe that Prophet was not prophet before and he made mistakes according to sunnis. 

If a person borns and says that he is last prophet and not Muhammad pbuhhp and he did mistake in telling it and Quran also is depraved, how would you refuse him? 

Since he refuses everything which appears true according to your belief. How would you solve such situation? 

Quran says in Surah Munafiqoon: "Do not follow a sinner or an ungrateful person".

So, how do you consider that Allah will choose a person for prophethood who lived a life of ignorance and violates his law by saying that now follow prophet but Ops according to you prophet makes mistakes again. 

Allah AWJ is not weak to design his message in a faulty way so that people may get ignorant while Allah says guidance is from Allah. 

W.salam brother 

 I think it's possible but I don't have evidence as of yet, or have come across it that the Prophet SAW made mistakes.  I think he may have been led into situations or experience situations where he made minor mistakes, not quite sins but that requires further reading for me to weigh in.

I answered this question earlier, your question where you ask if a person is born and  says hes the prophet and not Muhammad SAW, by telling you the Prophet's character and reputation, virtues of honesty, integrity, trustworthiness was beyond comprehension. 

In my past post in the other thread ".....Sorry. I believe he was an amazing man whose morals and wisdom earned trust from everyone and without it, no one would have believed in him and the message. Therefore Allah SWT chose him because of his qualities, because only a prophet/man with those qualties would people believe him.   Who could not read and was honest beyond measure and fair to everyone in addition to generous. 

The Prophet SAW miracle was  that he was such  a guy, that if an army people were behind a mountain hiding and he told the tribe of Quraish, they would all beleive him without a seconds hesitation. Through his qualities as a human and merits he built growing up and establishing a reputation, did he earn that trust.  He never treated his enemies unfairly nor his friends, gave preferance to those other than himself and not just Sayyids.

This quality has a powerful impact on me and my belief in Islam.  That can't ever change....."

This is how I know which person to believe, which none of you in any sect can argue with me on, as you all believe the same.

You cannot replicate these qualities, in some fake prophet.  One can be in "ignorance" or "lacking in knowledge" and be a virtuous person worthy of being the Messenger.  Because, who else could be a messenger?  Must one always have miracles to walk on water or raise the dead to be one we follow?

This is what separates Mahdi to Dajjal,  the Dajjal will have miracles, powers but have a heart of evil, while the Mahdi will have virtue, morals integrity etc. etc.

Edited by wmehar2

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2 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

Yes, I should be careful and emphasize, I do believe he was an extraordinary man, and a special person.  However I do not think there's enough evidence to support that he was all knowledgeable and lived the Quran before he was appointed/revealed, brother.  

I'm sure Prophets had baseline excellence/qualities, some of which exceeded other Prophets in some areas, while others not so much.  Just like how humans are different from each other, yet equal.  an earlier point made here is that we are all equal as creation.

If our previous prophets were given gifts or ability to do stuff that it was impossible & made Hazrat Luqman (As in) Vast knowledge as the Quran says "And We had certainly given Luqman wisdom 31:11  then brother wouldn't our prophet saw had all knowledgeable.. i'm sure also brother that the previous Prophets discussed about our last Prophet saw ad his qualities...

 

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4 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

 I think it's possible but I don't have evidence as of yet, or have come across it that the Prophet SAW made mistakes.  I think he may have been led into situations or experience situations where he made minor mistakes, not quite sins but that requires further reading for me to weigh in.

I answered this question earlier, your question where you ask if a person is born and  says hes the prophet and not Muhammad SAW, by telling you the Prophet's character and reputation, virtues of honesty, integrity, trustworthiness was beyond comprehension. 

In my past post in the other thread ".....Sorry. I believe he was an amazing man whose morals and wisdom earned trust from everyone and without it, no one would have believed in him and the message. Therefore Allah SWT chose him because of his qualities, because only a prophet/man with those qualties would people believe him.   Who could not read and was honest beyond measure and fair to everyone in addition to generous. 

The Prophet SAW miracle was  that he was such  a guy, that if an army people were behind a mountain hiding and he told the tribe of Quraish, they would all beleive him without a seconds hesitation. Through his qualities as a human and merits he built growing up and establishing a reputation, did he earn that trust.  He never treated his enemies unfairly nor his friends, gave preferance to those other than himself and not just Sayyids.

This quality has a powerful impact on me and my belief in Islam.  That can't ever change....."

This is how I know which person to believe, which none of you in any sect can argue with me on, as you all believe the same.

You cannot replicate these qualities, in some fake prophet.  One can be in "ignorance" or "lacking in knowledge" and be a virtuous person worthy of being the Messenger.  Because, who else could be a messenger?  Must one always have miracles to walk on water or raise the dead to be one we follow?

This is what separates Mahdi to Dajjal,  the Dajjal will have miracles, powers but have a heart of evil, while the Mahdi will have virtue, morals integrity etc. etc.

Another example for you. It is written in both Sunni and Shia Hadith books that when Prophet PBUHHP was 13 years old, he went to Syria along with his uncle, where a christian priest saw seal on his back written "Muhammad Rasolallah". But there is no any hadith mentions that this seal appeared after Prophet PBUHHP was 40 years of age and all sources agree that he had seal since his birth. So, tell me how does it define your position that Prophet was ordinary person before his prophethood ? 

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4 minutes ago, SeyedMoAbbas said:

If our previous prophets were given gifts or ability to do stuff that it was impossible & made Hazrat Luqman (As in) Vast knowledge as the Quran says "And We had certainly given Luqman wisdom 31:11  then brother wouldn't our prophet saw had all knowledgeable.. i'm sure also brother that the previous Prophets discussed about our last Prophet saw ad his qualities...

 

Wisdom does not equal having all knowledge of unseen or future/past events or understanding how the entire universe works.  Many people here meet criteria for being wise, or having wisdom, doesn't mean they're all knowing and all knowledgeable.  Means they're fitted with experience, or wit, or capacity for learning and making decisions efficiently.

If Allah SWT had to inspire the knowledge there was no God but God to Muhammad SAW. Then prophet SAW could not have been all knowledgeable.

Quran 18:110

Say (O Muhammad SAW): "I am only a man like you. It has been *****inspired to me***** that your Ilah (God) is One Ilah (God i.e. Allah). So whoever hopes for the Meeting with his Lord, let him work righteousness and associate none as a partner in the worship of his Lord."

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5 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

Wisdom does not equal having all knowledge of unseen or future/past events or understanding how the entire universe works.  Many people here meet criteria for being wise, or having wisdom, doesn't mean they're all knowing and all knowledgeable.  Means they're fitted with experience, or wit, or capacity for learning and making decisions efficiently.

If Allah SWT had to inspire the knowledge there was no God but God to Muhammad SAW. Then prophet SAW could not have been all knowledgeable.

Quran 18:110

Say (O Muhammad SAW): "I am only a man like you. It has been *****inspired to me***** that your Ilah (God) is One Ilah (God i.e. Allah). So whoever hopes for the Meeting with his Lord, let him work righteousness and associate none as a partner in the worship of his Lord."

Please first clear the above issue and then we discuss on how Prophet PBUHHP told us about events leading to Qayamah. And his Ilm. 

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On 8/18/2017 at 3:59 PM, Sindbad05 said:

Another example for you. It is written in both Sunni and Shia Hadith books that when Prophet PBUHHP was 13 years old, he went to Syria along with his uncle, where a christian priest saw seal on his back written "Muhammad Rasolallah". But there is no any hadith mentions that this seal appeared after Prophet PBUHHP was 40 years of age and all sources agree that he had seal since his birth. So, tell me how does it define your position that Prophet was ordinary person before his prophethood ? 

Actually,  it seems they differ.   It's quite controversial this hadith and I don't believe it to be true but fabricated.  This has MANY contradictions across other notable events and I can get into them if you'd like.  Though Sunni and Shia may agree with each other here, I beg to differ.

Bahira the priest saw a marking, not "Muhammad Rasolallah", but an egg shaped scar which I assumed we're all on the same page.  But regardless moving on.  Luckily I chanced upon an excerpt that raises many of the contentions/questionable details presented in the Hadith about bahira  the Christian Priest.

  1. Abû Ṭâlib was so poor that he was unable to raise his children. Ali ibn Abû Ṭâlib spoke of his father’s condition in this way: “My father was one of the leading figures of the Quraysh despite having been poor. However, although he was poor, no one was considered to have been exalted in the tribe above him. ”For this, some of his relatives undertook the up-bringing of some of his sons. He was a simple perfumer. He is also reported to have been lame; and thus unfit to undertake such a journey. He had never been so wealthy that he could have dreamed of a business trip.
  1. Ibn Isḥâq says that Abû Ṭâlib, according to the monk’s suggestion, “took him off quickly and brought him back to Mecca.” On the other hand, the ḥadîth in Tirmidhi reports that Abû Ṭâlib sent the boy back with Abû Bakr and Bilâl. It is to be noted that during the business trip Abû Bakr’s age would have been something like nine years. At that time Bilâl would not have yet been born. So, if the returning back of the boy with one junior boy and the other boy who has not yet been born is to be accepted, [that part of] the story has become invalid.If we take this account seriously on the grounds of the monk’s advice [to be wary of those who would do harm to this prophet-in-the-making], there may be raised a question as to why the beloved uncle—if he had feared so serious a danger to the life of the boy—how could he send Muhammad œ back under inadequate protection. This was a trip for saving life, not a trip for two young boys to play. So, the event of the return home is questionable.
  1. As to the signs of prophethood, Baḥîra informed the lunch party that he had seen the trees and rocks bowing down before the young Muhammad œ. During the travel from Makkah to Syria, whose distance is thousands of kilometers, there must have been thousands of people who noticed the caravan but we know of none who had been able to note such a miracle, not even the men of the caravan, but it was only the monk who could catch sight of it. How strange!
  1. According to Baḥîra’s saying, some people already had understood that the would-be prophet, as previously predicted, would emerge during that time, and some would come out to do him evil. It means that the signs of the would-be prophet, which Baḥîra had recognized, were well-known, at least in some circles, and that these signs might have been laid down in Christian—or Jewish—writings or in some of their oral traditions.But such things have not been found in the Bible, or even in Christian traditions. What the Bible says about the signs and miracles of a prophet is not similar to the sign of trees and rocks bowing down before a prophet.So a story based on such a purported biblical or prophetic sign as trees and rocks bowing down to a prophet-to-be is highly dubious.
  1. If the Baḥîra incident were authentic:
  • Wouldn’t the Quraysh men of the caravan have told the story to their relatives—the Makkans?
  • Or at least wouldn’t they have recalled the story when Islam was emerging and needed such corroborating support?
  • Or wouldn’t they have blamed Muhammad saying that he had been put up to becoming a prophet from tutoring by the monk?On the contrary, during the preaching of Islam in Makkah we have no record that even a single word was voiced regarding this supposed incident, either in favor of, or against, him. Despite the continuous oppression of Muhammad’s tribal kinsmen, the Quraysh, Muhammad’s uncle Abû Ṭâlib had always tried to protect him from his clansmen, but yet we do not hear that he had uttered a single word on Baḥîra’s alleged prediction in favor of their clansman’s prophethood.If Abû Ṭâlib really had actually met a monk who gave such a prediction,
  • Wouldn’t he have circulated the Christian, or Jewish, prediction as the monk had told the Quraysh-men of the caravan?
  • Wouldn’t Abû Bakr as an eyewitness have reported such a prediction and the monk’s testimony on the prophethood of Muhammad œ that had previously happened in his life, especially later when the Makkans and others had been opposing Islam?
  • At the very beginning of Islam when the first revelation had been sent down to Muhammad œ, on hearing that, wouldn’t Warakah ibn Nawfal—a Nestorian priest living in Makkah—have recognized Muhammad œ as a prophet like prophet Mûsa. But we do not hear that Warakah commented on any signs associated with the monk Baḥîra.
  1. In keeping with the story, if Muhammad œ had known that Syria and its people were ready to kill or harm him, then would he at the age of 25 years have traveled again to Syria? But we know that he did. Moreover, Abû Ṭâlib should not have permitted him to travel again to Syria after he—solely because of this nephew of his—had been marooned for about two and a half years by the Quraysh, together with his whole clan.
  1. Ibn Isḥâq claims that the monk marked the Jews as the enemy of the would-be prophet, saying: “Guard him carefully against the Jews, for by Allah! …. They will do him evil.” And, in fact, three Jews–Zurayr, Tammâm and Dâris—had noticed in the apostle of God what Baḥîra had seen and they did try to get at him. In contrast, in Tirmidhi’s adîth narrated by Abû Mûsa Asha¢ri, the monk branded the Christians as the enemy, saying: “for, when the Romans see him, they will recognize him from the descriptions and will kill him.” Seven Christians came out to harm the would-be prophet.
  1. Ibn Isḥâq relates that the monk invited the caravan-men to have a meal, and then during the period of the meal he recognized the boy as a would-be prophet.To the contrary, Tirmidhi’s adîth narrated from Abû Mûsa Asha¢ri says that “As they were unpacking their saddles, he mingled among them till he came to Allah’s Messenger œ and held his hand, saying: “He is the chief of the universe. He is the Messenger of the Lord of the worlds. Allah has sent him as mercy to the worlds.” After this reorganization of their packs, the monk made a meal for them.
  1. Furthermore, the monk himself, according to the adîth of Abû Mûsa Asha¢ri, brought food for the Quraysh men—implying that Baḥîra just showed up with it unexpectedly. But According to Ibn Isḥâq, the monk first formally invited them to have a meal, after which they proceeded to him for the meal.
  1. During the period of the Prophet’s residence in Madinah, a group of Christian missionaries from Najrân, numbering 60, came to Prophet Muhammad œ to scrutinize him as to whether he could be a true prophet. They stayed, questioned and debated, but never do we find an indication that they made a single comment on a prediction regarding a prophet before whom the trees and rocks would prostrate.Previous to this, twenty Christians had come from Ethiopia to Makkah to confirm belief in the prophet, but they did not bring up mention of any such sign as the monk had indicated. Nor did they mention any specific sign of a coming prophet, a sign that Christians would recognize as valid and definitive.

As you can see, I have a hard time accepting Hadiths as proofs or evidence.  And for now would like to stick to the Qu'ran.

Edited by ShiaChat Mod
Spelling was very necessary.

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