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In the Name of God بسم الله

White supremacists destroy Virginia town

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notme

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22 hours ago, notme said:

I read that they've again started impeachment proceedings over his mishandling of the crisis over these events. 

FRiday the 18th;

l heard part of Rush Limbaugh today at the end of one of the show's segments.

He said this,(near quote) "lf l heard that Republican Senators were already counting impeachment votes l would not be surprised" because the Republican Establishment is afraid of the Media.

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39 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

He said this,(near quote) "lf l heard that Republican Senators were already counting impeachment votes l would not be surprised" because the Republican Establishment is afraid of the Media.

Mike Pence isn't great, but he couldn't be worse than Donald. To be honest, I think he'd be just like Hilary, but hopefully without all the mysterious deaths. So not good, but about what we're used to. 

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White supremacists are meeting in Boston this weekend. Maybe we should rename this topic to 'White supremacists destroy everything'. :dry: 

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10 minutes ago, notme said:

Mike Pence isn't great, but he couldn't be worse than Donald. To be honest, I think he'd be just like Hilary, but hopefully without all the mysterious deaths. So not good, but about what we're used to. 

l Iike Pence --even though he is a self-confessed evilgelical. What l also Iike is his demeanor.

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On 8/15/2017 at 0:57 PM, wmehar2 said:

Walaikum As Salaam,

Perhaps when I say people shouldn't just call each other "white" or "black",  I mean to say they shouldn't ONLY identify as those, being proud or making sure your heritage/culture has a pulse/heart beat is not a bad thing nor what I'm getting at.  My point was there was too much emphasis on skin color, and not enough emphasis on other qualities people may posses, which does not mean lets take away cultural diversity.

Salam Wmehar2,

Ah, thanks for explaining. I understand you now and 100% agree. :)

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When I say people scream, it was a metaphor for those taking a stand, putting a line in the sand and saying this is who I am, I am gay, I am Black, I am white, I am etc., and I do not accept injustices towards this group I belong to that happens to be marginalized, it was not meant to be conveyed as literal.   However, I am referring to both those who scream loud, and those who use a loud but resounding voice, in all volumes, methods.

Sorry. :) I'm naturally a literalist, but thanks for explaining the metaphor you used. :)

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When you say those 3 faiths have diverse views, this is true.  However, I don't believe they are different/diverse to the extent that nullifies the statement, "There exist no religious premise to annihilate other followers of other religions, or races of others, most particularly among the 3 branched monotheistic faiths. "

Luke 9:52-56: "...they did not receive him...And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village."

Romans 3:29-30

Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,

43 “You heard that it was said: ‘You must love your neighbor+ and hate your enemy.’ 44 However, I say to you: Continue to love your enemies+ and to pray for those who persecute you,+ 45 so that you may prove yourselves sons of your Father who is in the heavens,+ since he makes his sun rise on both the wicked and the good and makes it rain on both the righteous and the unrighteous.+46 For if you love those loving you, what reward do you have?+ Are not also the tax collectors doing the same thing? 47 And if you greet your brothers only, what extraordinary thing are you doing? Are not also the people of the nations doing the same thing? 48 You must accordingly be perfect,* as your heavenly Father is perfect.+ Matthew 5:43–48

Leviticus 24:17-22

'If a man takes the life of any human being, he shall surely be put to death.
 
Galatians 3:28

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Acts 10:28

And he said to them, "You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a man who is a Jew to associate with a foreigner or to visit him; and yet God has shown me that I should not call any man unholy or unclean.
 
I need not say much for the Torah, but:

"Judaism claims no monopoly on God, and a person does not need to become Jewish to reach high spiritual levels. Judaism has no concept of "non-Jews going to hell." The Talmud (Sanhedrin 58b) presents seven pillars of humanity, and Maimonides explains that any human being who faithfully observes these earns a proper place in heaven. Judaism actually discourages converts, because the Torah is for all humanity, no conversion necessary.

As well, non-Jews were welcome to bring offerings to the Holy Temple in Jerusalem, which the prophet Isaiah referred to as a "house for all nations." And King Solomon specifically asked God to heed the prayer of non-Jews who come to the Temple (1-Kings 8:41-43)."

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Wow!!! I am impressed with your knowledge of the Bible!!! :)

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My point is no one can say kill someone in the name of Jesus or Christianity, over a matter of differences of opinion in religion, or race and ethnicity, the same of Judaism and Islam.  And if such people do such a thing, and say such a thing, it is they who are corrupt, peace breaking, and etc. They are the wrong ones.

Sadly, there are people however in all 3 groups who do sincerely believe that killing for God is ok. :( Paul for example thought he was doing God's will when he was persecuting Christians, until Jesus Christ confronted him.

Anyways, you are correct that there's too much emphasis on differences. We need to focus on what brings people together, and on God's commands to love each other, since He is the Creator of us all!!! :)

Peace and God bless you

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On 8/16/2017 at 11:17 AM, Gaius I. Caesar said:

Salam Gaius Caesar,

It says, "An error occurred. Please try again later." I got on Youtube and it said the same,

Personally, I think that the government shouldn't need to pay for anti-nazi programs. I think communities need to voluntarily do more to encourage love and respect for people, no matter their differences. I'm lecturing to myself too, because I need to do more to help my community, instead of just expecting others or the government to do it. So, no matter what President Trump or anyone else does, I'm responsible before God for what I do to help my community be a safer and better place for everyone, no matter their religion, skin color, or any other difference.

Peace and God bless you

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On 8/15/2017 at 11:12 AM, 2113 said:

I totally agree. :)

The issue is, these people see most of their politicians and elected officials such as their governors and senators coming from the more populated areas of the state and not representing their interests which fuels even more disgust among these people. Because it makes them think that they basically have no vote etc.

This is a big reason for Trump and how he got elected believe it or not. 

Again though, not an excuse at all for what happend over the weekend but just saying, sometimes these people they take all these issues and from their perspective, its bound to fan the flames. Then we see stereotyping and racism. 

Salam 2113,

True.

Well, it's definitely caused a sad state of division in the USA, that's for sure. :(

Peace and God bless you

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I support Trumps stance on this 

Confederate  war memorial are to their fallen war heroes, if they supported slavery that was because in those days slavery was commonplace not just in America but also whites enslaved whites in Europe

And like Trump said Thomas Jefferson and George Washington had slaves as well are we going to take down there statues too ?

The main issue is for the Democrats to Russia probe did not work so now they are playing the race card to try to take down his government

And the stupid liberal whites are falling for it

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8 hours ago, Christianlady said:

Salam Gaius Caesar,

It says, "An error occurred. Please try again later." I got on Youtube and it said the same,

Personally, I think that the government shouldn't need to pay for anti-nazi programs. I think communities need to voluntarily do more to encourage love and respect for people, no matter their differences. I'm lecturing to myself too, because I need to do more to help my community, instead of just expecting others or the government to do it. So, no matter what President Trump or anyone else does, I'm responsible before God for what I do to help my community be a safer and better place for everyone, no matter their religion, skin color, or any other difference.

Peace and God bless you

What these imbeciles  don't understand is that not every white supremacist is a Nazi.

It's like saying Hezbollah is a,wahabi group

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On 8/17/2017 at 2:30 AM, AfricanShia said:

Republicans. No its not an ignorant statment. Abraham Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt, Ronald Reagan. They were Republicans. Im not claiming Republicans are good but I prefer them over Democrats. Also if you hadnt noticed, because of Democrats the LGBT community is much bigger and better supported and also their belief is to fully legalize abortion. Islamic wise one shouldnt support liberalists because Islam liberalism dont go together unless if someone is a hypocrite.

Lol so LGBT is a bigger threat than the blood sucking capitalist pigs ?

Islam and unbridled capitalism does not go togather either buddy 

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On 8/21/2017 at 11:57 PM, Panzerwaffe said:

I support Trumps stance on this 

Salam Panzerwaffe,

I don't.

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Confederate  war memorial are to their fallen war heroes,

The Confederacy did not want to be a part of the USA. It's literally Anti-American to have Confederate war heroes. Why? Because again, the Confederacy did not want to be a part of the United States of America anymore. The Confederacy fought the USA in order to earn the right to leave. They lost. In Trumpspeak, Confederates can rightly be deemed losers.

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if they supported slavery that was because in those days slavery was commonplace not just in America but also whites enslaved whites in Europe

True. Whites in Europe were also enslaved by the Romans, Arabs, and Turks. Slavery of every skin color was common a long time ago. Basically, prisoners of war became slaves.

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And like Trump said Thomas Jefferson and George Washington had slaves as well are we going to take down there statues too ?

Neither Thomas Jefferson nor George Washington fought against the USA, unlike Robert E. Lee.

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The main issue is for the Democrats to Russia probe did not work so now they are playing the race card to try to take down his government

Donald Trump is hurting his own government; he doesn't need help from the Democrats. The Democrats are watching his every move though and documenting his multiple errors, that's for sure.

Quote

And the stupid liberal whites are falling for it

There is a cold civil war going on in the USA: with diverse cultural groups united against the white supremacists. Most liberal whites are on the side with the diverse cultural groups. While of course you can personally insult them and they can personally insult you, insults don't bring peace or unite a country... they just tear it apart even more. :(

Maybe that's what you want though? For the USA to self-destruct?  Just curious

Peace and God bless you

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On 8/21/2017 at 11:59 PM, Panzerwaffe said:

What these imbeciles  don't understand is that not every white supremacist is a Nazi.

True, though white supremacists can easily be Nazis. They are very similar.

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It's like saying Hezbollah is a,wahabi group

Hezbollah and Wahabis do have certain similarities.

Peace and God bless you

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23 minutes ago, Christianlady said:

True, though white supremacists can easily be Nazis. They are very similar.

Hezbollah and Wahabis do have certain similarities.

Peace and God bless you

In some way they can be but at least you see how vast the differences are between somebody who glorifies the Confederate past versus someone who is a German Nationalist and might be a sworn enemy of white polish White Russians and white czech people

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37 minutes ago, Christianlady said:

Salam Panzerwaffe,

I don't.

The Confederacy did not want to be a part of the USA. It's literally Anti-American to have Confederate war heroes. Why? Because again, the Confederacy did not want to be a part of the United States of America anymore. The Confederacy fought the USA in order to earn the right to leave. They lost. In Trumpspeak, Confederates can rightly be deemed losers.

True. Whites in Europe were also enslaved by the Romans, Arabs, and Turks. Slavery of every skin color was common a long time ago. Basically, prisoners of war became slaves.

Neither Thomas Jefferson nor George Washington fought against the USA, unlike Robert E. Lee.

Donald Trump is hurting his own government; he doesn't need help from the Democrats. The Democrats are watching his every move though and documenting his multiple errors, that's for sure.

There is a cold civil war going on in the USA: with diverse cultural groups united against the white supremacists. Most liberal whites are on the side with the diverse cultural groups. While of course you can personally insult them and they can personally insult you, insults don't bring peace or unite a country... they just tear it apart even more. :(

Maybe that's what you want though? For the USA to self-destruct?  Just curious

Peace and God bless you

Why do we have memorials to all the Native Americans who waged a vicious war against the white government of United States of America then?

Why do we have a statue of Oliver Cromwell in England then who fought against the crown?

Why do we have Memorial to Napoleon who was the enemy of the French monarchy ?

Your logic is twisted and narrow minded like most so called "liberals" 

So owning slaves was ok in 1776 and not in 1861 ?

Yes a lot of barbaric Muslims enslaved white Christians and I don't defend that either 

But when societies evolve we cannot completely erase their past 

If You liberals were truly open minded then leave the statues as they are 

Statue destruction is akin to Nazi book burning 

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16 hours ago, Panzerwaffe said:

In some way they can be but at least you see how vast the differences are between somebody who glorifies the Confederate past versus someone who is a German Nationalist and might be a sworn enemy of white polish White Russians and white czech people

Good point, though ironically the vast majority of the men marching in protest of the silly statue are fearful that they're going to be "replaced" with "Jews" - which is amusing in a way. Nazis hate Jews, so there's no wonder that many people put Nazis and white supremacists/nationalists into the same category.

The silly chant "Jews will not replace us" show their Nazi leanings very clearly.

Peace and God bless you

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35 minutes ago, Panzerwaffe said:

Why do we have memorials to all the Native Americans who waged a vicious war against the white government of United States of America then?

Why do we have a statue of Oliver Cromwell in England then who fought against the crown?Why do we have Memorial to Napoleon who was the enemy of the French monarchy ?

Your logic is twisted and narrow minded like most so called "liberals" 

So owning slaves was ok in 1776 and not in 1861 ?

Yes a lot of barbaric Muslims enslaved white Christians and I don't defend that either 

But when societies evolve we cannot completely erase their past 

If You liberals were truly open minded then leave the statues as they are 

Statue destruction is akin to Nazi book burning 

Panzerwaffe,

It's fine to have history museums and remember history. However, there's no reason to keep the Confederacy alive, unless you want to for some reason???

Personally, I am 100% fine with Confederacy statues being sold to those who love them so much or being placed in history museums where they belong. I don't live in the Confederate States of America, I shouldn't need to see Confederate statues in the streets of the United States of America.

I am 100% for replacing silly Confederate statues with great heroes. If I had the choice, I'd replace every Robert E Lee statue in a public place (not in a private place or museum) with a statue of Martin Luther King Jr.

MLK Jr. is in my opinion a true American hero!!! :)

Peace and God bless you

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15 hours ago, Christianlady said:

Good point, though ironically the vast majority of the men marching in protest of the silly statue are fearful that they're going to be "replaced" with "Jews" - which is amusing in a way. Nazis hate Jews, so there's no wonder that many people put Nazis and white supremacists/nationalists into the same category.

The silly chant "Jews will not replace us" show their Nazi leanings very clearly.

Peace and God bless you

Unfortunately for the Jews they have been hated for a long time by a lot of people including the ancient Romans and the conservative white Christians who fought the Nazis like the American establishment before 1948 they have also been hated by a conservative Englishmen they fought a whole War against them leading up to the independence of the Jewish homeland of Israel

So  no not all jew  haters are nazi..nice try 

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3 minutes ago, Christianlady said:

Panzerwaffe,

It's fine to have history museums and remember history. However, there's no reason to keep the Confederacy alive, unless you want to for some reason???

Personally, I am 100% fine with Confederacy statues being sold to those who love them so much or being placed in history museums where they belong. I don't live in the Confederate States of America, I shouldn't need to see Confederate statues in the streets of the United States of America.

I am 100% for replacing silly Confederate statues with great heroes. If I had the choice, I'd replace every Robert E Lee statue with a statue of Martin Luther King Jr.

MLK Jr. is in my opinion a true American hero!!! :)

Peace and God bless you

We don't have to live in the Confederate States of America no one in their right mind would want to I'm sure not even the whites but the point is that to deliberately deface and remove them is an insult to the war heroes

Why should Martin Luther King jr. Be a hero to the whites of the South it does not make any sense to them?

Regarding you questioning my loyalty I don't believe that the great country of United States of America is in Peril because of a bunch of brawling idiots from the extreme right and the extreme left most of us have a day job and have kids to worry about and would not be out there indulging in such frivolous activities

My stance is pretty clear there was no need to provoke a great number of white people by removing statues that have no significance whatsoever in this day and  age

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15 hours ago, Panzerwaffe said:

Unfortunately for the Jews they have been hated for a long time

True. :(

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by a lot of people including the ancient Romans and the conservative white Christians

The ancient Romans were pagans who didn't know any better. Conservative white Christians had/have no such excuse. It's ironic that many Christians don't understand the very concept of Christ is Jewish. If not for the Jewish concept of Christ (Mashiach/Messiah), Christianity would not even exist. 

Anyways, it is evil and wrong for Christians of any skin color or ethnicity to hate Jewish people. 

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who fought the Nazis like the American establishment before 1948 they have also been hated by a conservative Englishmen they fart a whole War against them leading up to the independence of the Jewish homeland of Israel

Both the Nazis and white supremacist groups hate Israel. However, even before the regeneration of Israel, Nazis hated Jews. :( The KKK love to blame Jews for everything, yet have the nerve to call themselves a "Christian" group. :(

Peace and God bless you

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^ agreed with most of what you say 

I hope you realize now that there are nuances in play and we cannot generalize and demonize our opposition something that the extreme left and the extreme-right are really good at doing

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15 hours ago, Panzerwaffe said:

We don't have to live in the Confederate States of America no one in their right mind would want to I'm sure not even the whites

Agree with you there!!! :) (I can be labeled white, by the way, due to my skin color.) 

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but the point is that to deliberately deface and remove them is an insult to the war heroes

But they are not American war heroes, so why should they even be in public streets of America??? The Confederacy was anti-American in that they didn't want to be part of the USA anymore. That's an insult to the USA.

Quote

Why should Martin Luther King jr. Be a hero to the whites of the South it does not make any sense to them?

Because he did more to help the USA than a military person who killed Americans soldiers did. Whether one likes it or not, Robert E Lee killed American soldiers when he was a Confederate general.

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Regarding you questioning my loyalty I don't believe that the great country of United States of America is in Peril because of a bunch of brawling idiots from the extreme right and the extreme left most of us have a day job and have kids to worry about and would not be out there indulging in such frivolous activities

Good answer. :) I stand corrected, thanks. :)

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My stance is pretty clear there was no need to provoke a great number of white people by removing statues that have no significance whatsoever in this day and  age

As a white woman, I have no problem provoking white people lol. :p There's a reason however why the younger generation of white people who love people with other skin colors want to replace Confederate statues... cause we want the USA to show more her cultural diversity. :) <3  

One of the aspects of the USA that makes the USA a wonderful country is our cultural diversity. Confederate statues do not show this part of the USA. We need to replace Confederate statues (that represents enemies of the USA) with true American heroes of different skin colors and ethnic groups. Why? Because the USA is losing white domination, slowly but surely. That's why the KKK and Nazis are so scared; they know it.

As a white woman, I don't think it's bad that the USA is losing white domination. God did not mandate for white people to be in control; God made people of all skin colors and we need to share control, and learn to live together in peace, respect, and harmony, with equal treatment and equal honor - represented in our statues as well as in our leadership. The days of white supremacy are numbered, which again is why white supremacist groups are so scared.

Peace and God bless you

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I feel sorry for you, you are typical of the self-hating liberal whites there will be a rude awakening for likes of you, once the minorities are in majority and they will oppress the whites something that you guys will be totally blindsided and will not see it coming.

If you don't believe me ask the whites from Zimbabwe or South Africa

You see my friend one thing that all non-whites have in common is their hatred of the white men but unfortunately without the system pioneered by the white man we would ALL still be enslaved or impoverished.

We the non-whites don't give the white man enough credit for the system they have created which have enabled humans to raise our standard of living and Advance not just technologically but also morally 

Why will you not support a statue of a white abolitionist rather than MLK ? 

Or a memorial to white victims of KKK?

Multiculturalism  is a suicide pill for the whites and only the smart ones that are on the moderate conservative side see that because try white immigration in non-white countries and see how they respond to a sharing of Power with the whites ? that will not go down well in Iran Saudi Arabia Pakistan nigeria or any country and will provoke very strong anti-white sentiments there.See what happened in Algeria after independence for example 

Forcibly trying whites  to integrate is asking for trouble

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15 hours ago, Panzerwaffe said:

I feel sorry for you, you are typical of the self-hating liberal whites there will be a rude awakening for likes of you, once the minorities are in majority and they will oppress the whites something that you guys will be totally blindsided and will not see it coming.

If you don't believe me ask the whites from Zimbabwe or South Africa

You see my friend one thing that all non-whites have in common if their hatred of the white men but unfortunately without the system pioneered by the white man they would still be enslaved or impoverished.

We the non-whites don't give the white man enough credit for the system they have created which have enabled humans to raise our standard of living and Advance not just technologically but also morally 

Salam Panzerwaffe,

I don't remember if I've ever told on Shiachat something I learned about my Mom when she was a teenager.

My Mom (as a white teenager) stood up and "provoked"  white adults in her church, rebuking them for refusing to accept a couple with black skin into their church membership. She asked them to allow the couple church membership, but they got mad at her.

The church of my grandparents when my Mom was a teen refused to accept a couple into the church membership because of their skin color. :( And, my Mom valiantly stood up against their horrible, racist decision. 

I do not hate white people. As a white woman, I recognize the horrible crimes my ancestors have done to other people. I am so proud of my Mom for standing up for the couple with black skin. She's a hero in my eyes for that. Although she didn't convince the white adults who refused the black couple to allow them into church membership, the church my husband and I attend includes people of all ethnic groups and skin colors, as God intends.

So, you can judge me as much as you want. I don't care. What i care about is equality for all people, regardless of their skin color, ethnicity, and religion.

I'm considered a traitor to white supremacist groups, because I love a man who is not white (My husband is Latino) and because I stand up for people of different skin colors and ethnic groups, including illegal immigrants from Latin America. They can judge me all they like, but the only Judge who matters to me is God. God loves all people and created all people, and He is the reason why I love all people too, including you.

Peace and God bless you

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Did it ever occur to you that horrible crimes were committed by nonwhites against whites as well and they i.e  the non-whites never feel sorry about them

So you need to get off your high moral horse and stop being a warrior for social justice provoking makes you feel good about yourself and I don't want to indulge you 

The reason why multiculturalism is a fad these days it has less to do with morality and more to do with capitalism

I honestly don't feel you deserve any kudos for marrying a Latino you can marry whoever you want I couldn't care less and the imbecile right-wingers who are upset about it are a bunch of brainwashed idiots who should just be ignored rather than confronted

And walaikum salaam,  good afternoon,  have a great day

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2 minutes ago, Panzerwaffe said:

LGBT bring business to me and my sister for a whole  range of medical and psych issues 

Hmmmm so I guess capitalism does win everytime comrade..doooh

Hmm lets see. The Islamic punishment for Homosexuality is death. Usury does not a have death penalty. I guess you can do the math :) . Transgressors that Allah is willing to destroy a city full of them vs Riba that Allah will prepare punishment for in the Hereafter. 

Good for you that you gladly help and support the LGBT community even though that would not be acceptable in the Shia community. :)

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10 hours ago, AfricanShia said:

Yes LGBT are a bigger threat. 

Only if you're afraid they will turn you gay. They're no threat to most of us. 

1 hour ago, Panzerwaffe said:

Why should Martin Luther King jr. Be a hero to the whites of the South it does not make any sense to them?

Because he's right. Morality does have right and wrong. As Muslims, we should always oppose oppressors and always support those who oppose them. 

-----

We need to keep the focus on human rights. If we protect the rights of every one of our human brothers and sisters, there will no longer be any concern about black rights, women's rights, gay rights, immigrant rights, religious rights. There will be no marginalized groups. That's the goal. 

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25 minutes ago, AfricanShia said:

They will destroy all of humanity. Im pretty sure you cant be friends with Homosexuals. 

You don't have to be friends with someone to expect others to not mistreat them, to treat them as brothers in humanity. Yes, they are committing sins according to Islam, but so are heterosexual fornicators, alcohol drinkers, bankers, even pork eaters. You don't have to agree with their life choices, and you don't have to oppress them either. 

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The problem with the LGBT movement isn't their sexual practices, it's their insistence that everyone else considers their sexual practices and lifestyle to be perfectly normal, and if anyone dares to disagree then they need to be shamed as a bigot. This is something that they feel has to be taught to young school children, and sooner or later it leads to people questioning their religion for its 'intolerant' attitudes, or seeking to rewrite the religion to conform with the new reality. We are currently witnessing a complete rewriting of what has been considered normal and ethical for thousands of years in order to appease a tiny portion of the population, and have reached the point where society no longer seems to be sure what a man or a woman is, whether children actually need male and female parents, or whether we might not all be happier in 'open' marriages (as homosexuals are so fond of practicing). This is a lot more serious than simply being a matter of tolerating other people's beliefs and practices. Christian denomination after Christian denomination has already capitulated on this matter, and it's only a matter of time before more Muslims start calling for 'reforms' in Islam as well.

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52 minutes ago, AfricanShia said:

They will destroy all of humanity. Im pretty sure you cant be friends with Homosexuals. 

By that logic, I guess I can't be friends or have respect for my mom, who drinks Sam Adams because she will destroy humanity as well. :blabla:

Honestly read what you wrote, you sound unhinged and irrational, incapable of common sense. I don't like her lifestyle choices but she will always be my mother. It should be no different for dealing with gay people. You don't have to ever agree with them or their lifestyle but you do have to give them dignity.

Edited by Gaius I. Caesar
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