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humanbeing101

Salafis think we can see Allah's face...

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I think the conclusion they derive is from sahih hadiths that they could no where say it is contradiction with Qur'an. Thus they made conclusion from Qur'an and their hadith that this life seeing is impossible but next life no problem.

No vision can see Him and He see all visions and that only the hearth can see Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى, not the vision of eyes.

Edited by Dhulfikar

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And when Moses arrived at Our appointed time and his Lord spoke to him, he said, "My Lord, show me [Yourself] that I may look at You." [ Allah ] said, "You will not see Me, but look at the mountain; if it should remain in place, then you will see Me." But when his Lord appeared to the mountain, He rendered it level, and Moses fell unconscious. And when he awoke, he said, "Exalted are You! I have repented to You, and I am the first of the believers." Surah Al-Araf 143

The Imam a.s. had many debates and wise responses to atheists and followers of different schools of thought.  In one instance, someone asked Imam as-Sadiq a.s. to show him God. The Imam replied, "Look at the sun."  The man said that he could not look at the sun because it was too bright.  Imam as-Sadiq a.s. replied, "If you cannot see the created, how can you expect to see the Creator" 

If The Holy Glorious Quran has spoken about this and the partners (Ahlubayt as) Of the Holy Quran what more do they want? 

 Some faces that Day (the Day of Judgment)  shall beam  (in brightness and beauty).  Looking at their Lord (Allah - سبحانہ و تعا لی)] (Al-Qiyamah - 22-23).

They always use chapters and verse like these to argue in fact we can see Allah swt on the Day of judgement but i've heard in one of Dr Ammar Nakshawni saying that"seeing/see" in the Quran it is a form of Blessing and mercy of Allah swt that we will be seeing  On The Day Of Judgement and some will be exempt from seeing this mercy.

It's not generally saying we will  see (God Forbid) Allah swt himself because that can never happen

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Every vision that what sees trough eyes are creations, thus it will have shape, color etc, and Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى is not subject to shape, color etc. He can only be recognized by His Signs and can only be know trough His Attributes. He is not formed so that His Form could be compared to the created. Anything revealed is other than Him, so how could we see something which is revealed and call it Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى astaghfirullah.

Edited by Dhulfikar

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Not really exclusively Salafi. Many non-Salafi Sunnis believe this too, they use literal reading of the Holy Qur'an and hadiths from Bukhari to prove their stance. This isn't a fringe belief or anything.

Edited by E.L King

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Not just many sunnis believe that the believers will see Allah but all of ahlul sunnah does. Abu Hanifa in fiqhul akbar says "Allah Most High will be seen in the Hereafter. The believers will see Him, while in Paradise, with their own eyes, without any comparison or modality. There will not be any distance between Him and His creation." Imam tahawi in his universally accepted work (among sunnis) Aqeedah at-tahawi states "The vision of Allah by the people of the Paradise is true, without their vision being all-encompassing and without the manner of their vision being known. As the Book of our Lord has expressed it: Faces on that Day will be radiant, looking at their Lord(75:22-3). The explanation of this is as Allah knows and intended. Everything that has been authentically narrated to us from the Messenger, peace and blessings be upon him, about this is as he said and it means what he intended. We do not delve into it, trying to interpret it according to our own opinions or letting our imaginations have free rein..." Actually the majority of sunni scholars say that the prophet (sawa) saw Allah with his eyes on his ascension but some said he saw him with his heart. But you have a lot of weird anthropomorphic things from hanbalis/salafis (which most sunnis reject) things such as but not limited to Allah literally sitting (juloos) on the throne, Allah's dhat literally being 4 fingers above the throne, the prophet (sawa) sitting next to Allah on the throne, Allah literally descending to the lowest heaven every last third of the night, and that Allah is a young beardless man with curly hair

May Allah protect us from such things and keep us on the path of ahlul bayt (as).
Allahumma ameen thumma ameen

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Honestly I have yet to see a defence from Salafis on this position. Can anyone tell me how Salafis refute or defend this? 

I view it like this:

Quote

If you can see Allah, that means Allah is a physical entity. If Allah is a physical entity, then Allah is automatically restricted and limited. If Allah is limited and restricted, Allah cannot be Allah because Allah is unlimited and unrestricted.

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Bilal Philips have wrote in his Tawheed book after referring some hadiths, like this hadith for example:

Ibn 'Umar also reported that the Prophet (saws) once said:

"The day of Resurrection is the first day that any eye will look at Allah, the All-Great and All-Glorious" and this is authentic hadith according them. Notice that we are talking about Vision, because they refer here EYE.

...

He comes to point where he says:

"As for previously mentioned verse,  "Eyes cannot catch Him, but He catches all eyes", it negates seeing Allah at all in this life, but in the next life, it only negates the possibility of seeing Allah in His totality. The righteous will only be able to see a part of Allah since their sight will still be the sight of finite created beings while Allah is and always be the infinite uncreated Lord who can not be encompassed by sight, knowledge or power.

-- 

Bilal Philips just showed to all of us, that he just divided Allah to parts. Also like it was referred before, every eye vision what sees is creations, so if Allah can be seen trough eye vision, it means He is either created (astaghfirullah) or the thing what they see is creation that is not Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى. Because they say it is Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى, it means they made Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى as created (astaghfirullah)

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We can see Allah (s.w.t) in this world.

All we need is "Qalb e Saleem" to see Him.

Surah Adh-Dhariyat, Verse 20:

وَفِي الْأَرْضِ آيَاتٌ لِّلْمُوقِنِينَ

And in the earth there are signs for those who are sure,

(English - Shakir)

Surah Adh-Dhariyat, Verse 21:

وَفِي أَنفُسِكُمْ أَفَلَا تُبْصِرُونَ

And in your own souls (too); will you not then see?

(English - Shakir)

Edited by Salsabeel

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Why did Bilal Philips quote this:

"As for previously mentioned verse,  "Eyes cannot catch Him, but He catches all eyes",

https://quran.com/6/103

It's absar no 'uyun

That's just weird for someone who knows arabic to suddenly translate it wrongly.

And we can see, but not with our eyes.  Again look وَفِي أَنفُسِكُمْ أَفَلَا تُبْصِرُونَ , it it's not seeing with the eyes, it's basara not nadhara

Edited by 145_turbo_16V

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2 hours ago, 145_turbo_16V said:

Why did Bilal Philips quote this:

"As for previously mentioned verse,  "Eyes cannot catch Him, but He catches all eyes",

https://quran.com/6/103

It's absar no 'uyun

That's just weird for someone who knows arabic to suddenly translate it wrongly.

And we can see, but not with our eyes.  Again look وَفِي أَنفُسِكُمْ أَفَلَا تُبْصِرُونَ , it it's not seeing with the eyes, it's basara not nadhara

It dosen't matter because their hadith says:

The Prophet said, "You will definitely see your Lord with your own eyes."
- Sahih Bukhari, v9, Hadith #530

No where in Qur'an it imply that in hereafter we see God by our eyes. It is only the hadith that contradict with it.

 

Edited by Dhulfikar

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On ‎4‎-‎8‎-‎2017 at 10:13 PM, Ībn Mūneer Āl-Feylī said:

This is true? Doesn't this make God a man? Disgusts me...

They believe in their ahaadith. Not in the Quran or at least ahaadith have priority above the Quran.

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15 minutes ago, Faruk said:

I did not came from christianity into islam to hear again that God is a visible creature-like.

Probably there is many verses of quran and sayings of Ahlabayt as that indicates Allah can be seen. 

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16 hours ago, Dhulfikar said:

It dosen't matter because their hadith says:

The Prophet said, "You will definitely see your Lord with your own eyes."
- Sahih Bukhari, v9, Hadith #530

No where in Qur'an it imply that in hereafter we see God by our eyes. It is only the hadith that contradict with it.

 

Probably there is many verses of quran and sayings of Ahlabayt as that indicates Allah can be seen. 

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1 hour ago, islam25 said:

Probably there is many verses of quran and sayings of Ahlabayt as that indicates Allah can be seen. 

Not with the vision of eyes. But the hearth can see signs of Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى.

The famous verses they always quote is this:

Looking at their Lord. Q:75:23

Imam Ali said: "The verse means looking forward to what Allah, the mighty and the majestic has promised them. And the word 'Nadhira' sometimes means 'Expecting/waiting/looking forward'('al'Muntadhira'). Haven't you heard the saying of Allah '(But i am doing to send him a present) and i am looking forward(Nadhira) to what (answer) the ambassadors will return (27:35)

This means i am waiting (Al Muntadhira) for what the ambassadors will return..."

Bihar Al-Anwar, V90/93, p101, Hadith#1

 

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1 minute ago, Dhulfikar said:

Not with the vision of eyes. But the hearth can see signs of Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى.

The famous verses they always quote is this:

Looking at their Lord. Q:75:23

Imam Ali said: "The verse means looking forward to what Allah, the mighty and the majestic has promised them. And the word 'Nadhira' sometimes means 'Expecting/waiting/looking forward'('al'Muntadhira'). Haven't you heard the saying of Allah '(But i am doing to send him a present) and i am looking forward(Nadhira) to what (answer) the ambassadors will return (27:35)

This means i am waiting (Al Muntadhira) for what the ambassadors will return..."

Bihar Al-Anwar, V90/93, p101, Hadith#1

 

We already  see signs of Allah with naked eyes. 

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4 minutes ago, Dhulfikar said:

Not with the vision of eyes. But the hearth can see signs of Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى.

The famous verses they always quote is this:

Looking at their Lord. Q:75:23

Imam Ali said: "The verse means looking forward to what Allah, the mighty and the majestic has promised them. And the word 'Nadhira' sometimes means 'Expecting/waiting/looking forward'('al'Muntadhira'). Haven't you heard the saying of Allah '(But i am doing to send him a present) and i am looking forward(Nadhira) to what (answer) the ambassadors will return (27:35)

This means i am waiting (Al Muntadhira) for what the ambassadors will return..."

Bihar Al-Anwar, V90/93, p101, Hadith#1

 

Imam al-Husayn (a.s.) 15said:

قال حسين بن على عليه السلام: كيف يستدل عليك بما هو في وجوده مفتقر إليك ؟ أ يكون لغيرك من الظهور ما ليس لك حتي يكون هو المظهر لك ؟ متي غبت حتي تحتاج إلي دليل يدل عليك ؟ و متي بعدت حتي تكون الَثار هي التي توصل إليك ؟ عميت عين لا تراك عليها رقيبا وخسرت صفقة عبد لم. تجعل له من حبلك نصيبا.

“In order to prove Your Existence how can a thing could be referred as an argument which in itself is dependent upon You? Is there exist any manifestation for other than You which You lack, so thathe would make You revealed? When were You absent so that an argument will be required? When were You away so that the indications and circumstances of Your reappearance would be needed? Blind is the eye which does not see You as an Overseer upon his deeds. And how unfortunate looser is your servant, who have been deprived of Your Love.

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6 minutes ago, islam25 said:

We already  see signs of Allah with naked eyes. 

If the naked eyes see something, do the atheist see any sing of Allah? No. When the believer look at with his eyes the creations, he will see the sign of Allah. This is because his hearth have vision and it see the sign of Allah, not the eyes. What eyes see, can only see but an creations.

Edited by Dhulfikar

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The point is that these people literally believe that they can see and are staring at Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى with their eyes. If they have ment as sign of Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى, then the Imams whould never even criticize them.

Edited by Dhulfikar

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15 minutes ago, Dhulfikar said:

The point is that these people literally believe that they can see and are staring at Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى with their eyes. If they have ment as sign of Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى, then the Imams whould never even criticize them.

That is different point. 

There are many narrations that indicate that Allah can be seen not only at qayamah but even today. Yes not with eyes but with vision of heart. 

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Just now, islam25 said:

That is different point. 

There are many narrations that indicate that Allah can be seen not only at qayamah but even today. Yes not with eyes but with vision of heart. 

Yes brother we agree with this. But their beliefs in this matter is different with hearth vision. 

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Just now, Dhulfikar said:

Yes brother we agree with this. But their beliefs in this matter is different with hearth vision. 

That is not big question. What ever will be the means vision in hereafter that will witness Allah. But definitely not in entirety. Not necessarily like we see objects. Yes Allah can be seen at qayamah. But how He will be seen we can't  say. 

But in this world Allah can be seen with vision of heart and not eyes. For that heart needs to clear like mirror not stained with darkness of sin and shrik. 

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Quote

That is not big question. What ever will be the means vision in hereafter that will witness Allah. But definitely not in entirety. Not necessarily like we see objects. Yes Allah can be seen at qayamah. But how He will be seen we can't  say. 

Lets make it clear. The hearth vision sees Allah, means the hearth vision sees the sign of Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى and the sing of Allah are other than Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى. If we say the vision in hereafter is eye related, then the recognition had taken the place and thus we say they have comprehend Him in knowledge. And Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى says "And they do not comprehend Him in knowledge. Q53:18"

Prove me that these Sunnis do not mean eye vision in hereafter. All of their hadiths indicate they are going to see Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى trought their eye visions. And they say of course they do not see Allah fully, but part of Him.

Edited by Dhulfikar

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1 hour ago, islam25 said:

Yes Allah can be seen at qayamah. But how He will be seen we can't  say. 

His signs will be available for everyone's vision every where. No one can see His wajood or zaat.

Surah Qaf, Verse 22:

لَّقَدْ كُنتَ فِي غَفْلَةٍ مِّنْ هَٰذَا فَكَشَفْنَا عَنكَ غِطَاءَكَ فَبَصَرُكَ الْيَوْمَ حَدِيدٌ

Certainly you were heedless of it, but now We have removed from you your veil, so your sight today is sharp.

(English - Shakir)

 

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3 hours ago, islam25 said:

That is not big question. What ever will be the means vision in hereafter that will witness Allah. But definitely not in entirety. Not necessarily like we see objects. Yes Allah can be seen at qayamah. But how He will be seen we can't  say. 

But in this world Allah can be seen with vision of heart and not eyes. For that heart needs to clear like mirror not stained with darkness of sin and shrik. 

Brother, you don't know what you're talking about. You're just parroting ahaadith but you never saw Allah and you will never see Him.

If you believe you can see Allah you do not know Allah. 

Seeing Him with the heart however has nothing to do with matter, limitations color or whatsoever.

It's just a very high level of iman.

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6 hours ago, Faruk said:

Brother, you don't know what you're talking about. You're just parroting ahaadith but you never saw Allah and you will never see Him.

If you believe you can see Allah you do not know Allah. 

Seeing Him with the heart however has nothing to do with matter, limitations color or whatsoever.

It's just a very high level of iman.

Imam jaffar Sadiq As was asked by Abu basir. Can Allah be seen at qayamah. Imam replied not only in  qiamah but momineen will see him in this world. 

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6 hours ago, Faruk said:

Brother, you don't know what you're talking about. You're just parroting ahaadith but you never saw Allah and you will never see Him.

If you believe you can see Allah you do not know Allah. 

Seeing Him with the heart however has nothing to do with matter, limitations color or whatsoever.

It's just a very high level of iman.

Definitely Allah can be seen. 

But how?

According to Shia narrations it's heart that can see Allah and it's sins and shrik that veils heart. 

O my God, (please) grant me absolute devotion to You

وَانِرْ ابْصَارَ قُلُوبِنَا بِضِيَاءِ نَظَرِهَا إِلَيْكَ

and illuminate the sights of our hearts with the light of observing of You

حَتَّىٰ تَخْرِقَ ابْصَارُ ٱلْقُلُوبِ حُجُبَ ٱلنُّورِ

so that the sights of the hearts will penetrate the Screens of Light

فَتَصِلَ إِلَىٰ مَعْدِنِ ٱلْعَظَمَةِ

and arrive at the Core of Magnificence,

وَتَصِيرَ ارْوَاحُنَا مُعَلَّقَةً بِعِزِّ قُدْسِكَ

and that our souls hang to the majesty of Your Holiness.

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12 hours ago, islam25 said:

Definitely Allah can be seen. 

But how?

According to Shia narrations it's heart that can see Allah and it's sins and shrik that veils heart. 

O my God, (please) grant me absolute devotion to You

وَانِرْ ابْصَارَ قُلُوبِنَا بِضِيَاءِ نَظَرِهَا إِلَيْكَ

and illuminate the sights of our hearts with the light of observing of You

حَتَّىٰ تَخْرِقَ ابْصَارُ ٱلْقُلُوبِ حُجُبَ ٱلنُّورِ

so that the sights of the hearts will penetrate the Screens of Light

فَتَصِلَ إِلَىٰ مَعْدِنِ ٱلْعَظَمَةِ

and arrive at the Core of Magnificence,

وَتَصِيرَ ارْوَاحُنَا مُعَلَّقَةً بِعِزِّ قُدْسِكَ

and that our souls hang to the majesty of Your Holiness.

You can physically see God? 

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1 hour ago, Ībn Mūneer Āl-Feylī said:

You can physically see God? 

Mrs accordin quran and teaching of Ahlebayt as we already see Allah but we ignorant that do not recognise him. Yes to recognise him it needs devoted heart and sinless soul. That is the aim of teaching of all Ambias as how to purify soul from all sorts sins and shrike. Then they see Allah. 

But what they see is beyond description in the language of this world. So they can't convey to others. That means every have to himself achieve purification to see Allah .

Seeing physically or with eyes have no significance. 

Imam Ali  as innovation. 

O my God, (please) grant me absolute devotion to You

وَانِرْ ابْصَارَ قُلُوبِنَا بِضِيَاءِ نَظَرِهَا إِلَيْكَ

and illuminate the sights of our hearts with the light of observing of You

حَتَّىٰ تَخْرِقَ ابْصَارُ ٱلْقُلُوبِ حُجُبَ ٱلنُّورِ

so that the sights of the hearts will penetrate the Screens of Light

فَتَصِلَ إِلَىٰ مَعْدِنِ ٱلْعَظَمَةِ

and arrive at the Core of Magnificence,

وَتَصِيرَ ارْوَاحُنَا مُعَلَّقَةً بِعِزِّ قُدْسِكَ

and that our souls hang to the majesty of Your Holiness..

Similarly when imam jafar safiq as was asked weather momin can see Allah in Qayamah he agreed. But he added that momin can see Allah even in this world. 

But it needs absolute dissociation from everything and submitting to Allah. 

Prophet puh narrated that if you learn to be silence then you will see what I see. 

Edited by islam25

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On ‎16‎-‎8‎-‎2017 at 4:55 AM, islam25 said:

Imam jaffar Sadiq As was asked by Abu basir. Can Allah be seen at qayamah. Imam replied not only in  qiamah but momineen will see him in this world. 

You do not seem to be aware of the fact that this hadith is actually a switch of the concept of 'seeing Allah'.

It switched from the literal meaning to the figurative meaning of 'seeing Allah'. Seeing Allah in the figurative sense means to have an intense awareness of Allah's existence. Not only because of reason but with the heart as well.

It has nothing to do with the physical/literal meaning of 'salafi's'.

Also check the diffirence of seeing Allah after death and before death. The salafi's will never claim Allah can be seen before death as their concept is a literal/physical one.

Edited by Faruk

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9 minutes ago, Faruk said:

You do not seem to be aware of the fact that this hadith is actually a switch of the concept of 'seeing Allah'.

It switched from the literal meaning to the figurative meaning of 'seeing Allah'. Seeing Allah in the figurative sense means to have an intense awareness of Allah's existence. Not only because of reason but with the heart as well.

It has nothing to do with the physical/literal meaning of 'salafi's'.

Also check the diffirence of seeing Allah after death and before death. The salafi's will never claim Allah can be seen before death as their concept is a literal/physical one.

Mr.I have nothing to do what salafi believe. The main question was seeing of Allah. 

Yes  according  to quran and Ahlebayt as 

Second question is how. 

With eyes or heart or soul. It is with heart according to Ahlebayt as. Even today it is possible. 

How do see dreams. Do you see it with eyes? 

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