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In the Name of God بسم الله
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How do you refute Trinity?

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On 8/1/2017 at 6:57 AM, IbnSina said:

 

How does one within the doctrines of christianity know what is from God and what is from men?

If there was a clear answer to you question, would there be different Christian congregations? 

Christians are Orthodox, Catholics, Protestants. Does this not prove that religion is a belief and not something we know for certain?

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10 hours ago, IbnSina said:

I asked specifically about the Bible not the rest of christian doctrines in general.

 

You will have to be more specific than "within the doctrines" if you are looking for a specific answer of a specific doctrine, specifically about the Bible.  Actually, everyone answers you carefully because your agenda is not to understand but to take, twist, create nonsense of it, and throw it back as an accusation, all under the guise of "conversing".

To get a better idea it would be easier for you to consult the Qu'ran on the laws you now follow. Which direction does the Qu'ran tell you to face when praying? How many times does the Qu'ran actually tell you to pray? Does the Qu'ran bullet point a ceremonial wash? Where does the Qu'ran say hijab, niqab, burka? Things like that. 

I say this because it is confirmed that the Qu'ran is the only book that can be considered divine and 100% from God. Everything not specifically outlined is from where? 

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5 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

I say this because it is confirmed that the Qu'ran is the only book that can be considered divine and 100% from God. Everything not specifically outlined is from where? 

Do you believe the Quran is 100% from God?

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So, I am a little late to the party but isn't the doctrine of the trinity a result of the exegesis of the biblical text as the doctrine of tawheed is a result of the exegesis of the Qur'an? Since apostolic fathers, as early as Barnabas held to the dual nature of Messiah, why would we think the concept of trinity is only an invention of the late 2nd century theologian Tertullian who used the Latin term in his writings? There are even Jewish writings that held to a binitarian understanding of the nature of YHWH. We see this in the apocalyptic work of Enoch where the Messianic figure is divine. Indeed even in the Dead Sea Scrolls, in the Melchizedek scroll, which references Psalm 110, the figure is more than human and put on the same level with YHWH. The Son of Man is obviously a divine figure in Daniel 7:13. The Son of Man figure is prominent in the pseudapigraphical book of Enoch. This does show Jewish thought of the late second temple.

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2 hours ago, andres said:

Do you believe the Quran is 100% from God?

Yes, just like 1/4th of humanity.

This is the conviction of every muslim on earth and it is very fundamental in islam.

 

7 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

Actually, everyone answers you carefully because your agenda is not to understand but to take, twist, create nonsense of it, and throw it back as an accusation, all under the guise of "conversing".

I am trying to make sense out of this one persons logic, not all the christains of the world. This person in particular has said that he is not christian but seem to adopt some christian concepts.

I am trying to see how well thought thru his understanding actually is.

As far as I am concerned, there is not need for others to answer when I am asking a specific person.

Lastly, if something I say makes no sense to you, it does not mean that it is nonsense but that you in particular can not make sense of it.

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21 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

I don't think I said the Bible has been meddled with.  You mind quoting me?

I suggest you to read the section on the Bible in the wiki link I sent you.  

According to the Eastern Orthodox Chirch, the Bible is not, technically speaking, the Word of God... it is Jesus himself who is the Word of God.  I quote from the wiki link:

 

"In a very strict sense, it is not entirely orthodox to call the Holy Scriptures the "Word of God". That is a title the Orthodox Church reserves for Christ, as supported in the scriptures themselves, most explicitly in the first chapter of the gospel of John. God's Word is not hollow, like human words. "God said, 'let there be light'; and there was light."[123] This is the Word which spoke the universe into being, and resonates in creation without diminution throughout all history, a Word of divine power."

As far as I have understood you, when you said:

"The Quran is the Word of God made book, while as in Christianity the Word of God is Jesus himself (not the Bible).  So, it is fine if something as fundamental (or what "appears" to be fundamental) as the Doctrine of the Trinity isn't mentioned in the Bible (at least explicitly).  Secondly, Jesus (in Christianity) didn't come prima facie to teach an intellectual doctrine like we find in Islam with the Shahada and with the Chapter on Tawhid (i.e. Surat al-Ikhlas).  That job was or is left (if at all, or if needed) for the Church Fathers or in the inheritors of the message of Jesus Christ. "

 

Also, you just said it again:

"According to the Eastern Orthodox Chirch, the Bible is not, technically speaking, the Word of God... it is Jesus himself who is the Word of God.  I quote from the wiki link"

 

Also you said:

21 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

"Orthodox Christians hold that he Bible is a verbal icon of Christ, as proclaimed by the 7th ecumenical council.[116] They refer to the Bible as Holy Scripture, meaning writings containing the foundational truths of the Christian faith as revealed by Christ and the Holy Spirit to its divinely inspired human authors. Holy Scripture forms the primary and authoritative written witness of Holy Tradition and is essential as the basis for all Orthodox teaching and belief.[117]The Bible provides the only texts held to be suitable for reading in Orthodox worship services. Through the many scriptural quotations embedded in the worship service texts themselves, it is often said that the Orthodox pray the Bible as well as read it."

What does divinely inspired humans actually mean? If they are humans who convey the message of God that makes them prophets.

And what does "holy tradition" actually mean?

 

 

I need you to tell me, before we can continue this discussion:

What status does the Bible hold in your eyes in particular?

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13 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

IbnSina does, doesn't he?

 

Most Muslims seemingly still do. And some Christians still claim the Bible is. These beliefs have long stoped prosperous developement of world societies, consequently not so much in the Christian world, but still holds a grip over the Muslim. 

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4 hours ago, andres said:

Most Muslims seemingly still do. And some Christians still claim the Bible is. These beliefs have long stoped prosperous developement of world societies, consequently not so much in the Christian world, but still holds a grip over the Muslim. 

It's not altogether a bad thing to hold that thought. Besides all the battles and genocides that everyone has to talk about, there have been congregations living by Biblical and Qu'ranic standards that are doing just fine since the creation of their established religion. 

 Not sure about prosperous development. Retiring earthenware for ceramics saved a lot of trouble, but replacing everything with plastics was never a good idea. I find more and more that new and improved may be new, but seldom actually improved. The prosperity is hoarded by the already rich.

Number one rule in evolution is, everything evolves to a lesser state. This seems to mean religions as well...as it follows the degradation of society. Not everybody wants to see known sins accepted as normal. We have examples of godless states and what God has done to them but they're in the scriptures you question. 

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13 hours ago, andres said:

Most Muslims seemingly still do.

All muslims do.

Any person who calls themselves muslim while also saying that the holy Quran is not holy, that it is not fully the words of Allah swt, such a person will be condemned by all muslims and not considered a muslim anymore by the ummah, regardless of what they call themselves.

If a person based on todays norms, who by the way are created by God knows who, do not agree with a particular ayah of the holy Quran, that does not mean that it is not the will and words of the creator of the universe. And what about the rest of the 99% of the holy Quran that he/she agrees with?

The fact that the holy Quran is fully the and completely the words of the creator of universe is absolutely fundamental and unchangeable.

But anyways, this is a separate discussion.

 

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14 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

It's not altogether a bad thing to hold that thought. Besides all the battles and genocides that everyone has to talk about, there have been congregations living by Biblical and Qu'ranic standards that are doing just fine since the creation of their established religion. 

 Not sure about prosperous development. Retiring earthenware for ceramics saved a lot of trouble, but replacing everything with plastics was never a good idea. I find more and more that new and improved may be new, but seldom actually improved. The prosperity is hoarded by the already rich.

Number one rule in evolution is, everything evolves to a lesser state. This seems to mean religions as well...as it follows the degradation of society. Not everybody wants to see known sins accepted as normal. We have examples of godless states and what God has done to them but they're in the scriptures you question. 

Was moral standard better before we had democrasy, dentists, hospitals, education and airoplanes? When laws prescribed stoning to death for carrying fuel to heat your house during Sabbath?  

You have misunderstood evolution. Most mutations are unsuccessful. Few are successful. The fittest survives. Israel had not existed, had they not been helped by nations more developed than their neighbours. Educated immigrants also formed the State of Israel. A 500BC OT state had never survived.

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6 hours ago, IbnSina said:

The fact that the holy Quran is fully the and completely the words of the creator of universe is absolutely fundamental and unchangeable.

 If this is the true word of God, God did not manage to speak so clear that Muslims would understand. Or is there a branch of a islam that did? Shias?

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3 hours ago, andres said:

 If this is the true word of God, God did not manage to speak so clear that Muslims would understand. Or is there a branch of a islam that did? Shias?

I do not find it hard to understand and for example if a certain ayah is harder to understand I ask those who have studied it more in depth, for example the historic context in which it was revealed, etc.

Yes, as far as I am concerned the shia branch of Islam has the correct understanding and interpretation of the holy Quran especially since we have our 12 infallible Imams(as) who have clarified any questions.

Anyways, people some times like to misunderstand things because it fits their personal wishes better. Letting go of personal wishes and be is submission to Allah swt is what it means to be a muslim.

But as I said, this is another discussion for another thread.

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6 hours ago, andres said:

When laws prescribed stoning to death for carrying fuel to heat your house during Sabbath?  

Palestine is not as cold as Sweden. So heating the home in that part of the world was not a priority.

In any case, I do not know what your beliefs are but every Jew, Christian and Muslim believes that Moses was a man of God. That could be more than 4 billion people. 

So if Moses was a man of God, then his laws must have come from God.

Which means that however harsh the laws may be, ordinary mortals do not have the wherewithal to question them. 

Because we are then effectively challenging God, who is supposed to be perfect.

I can understand that those laws sound very harsh but if we don't accept what God says, we do not really believe in Him.

The true theist must believe that however harsh His laws may sound, they must have a purpose that our little minds cannot fathom and that He is actually far more merciful than any human being can ever be.

Does that sound reasonable?

We are, of course, under no obligation to believe in God or in the premise that He is worthy of unquestioned acceptance and obedience.

The choice is entirely ours.  

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