Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله
Sign in to follow this  
Zavon

How do you refute Trinity?

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

13 hours ago, baqar said:

Very many?

Have the Vatican and Protestant churches accepted the verdict of the very many Christians that you mention.

If they haven't, then the views of your very many Christians holds no significance for me.

Some Christians believe everything written in the Bible really happened. Others dont. As far as I know the largest Christian Church (the Catholic) do not (any longer) demand the Bible to be understood in this fundamental way.  Knowledge and education has increased among Christans, and there are just to many food arguments that Moses is a myth. Cant say the percentage of Christians worldwide that believe Moses was real. I am certain that in Sweden they belong to a small minority. Real or not real, Moses story is a part of religious tradition, and it has a message to us.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, IbnSina said:

Is there anything that one of the 3 Gods in the concept of trinity can do that the other one cannot?

For example can the father do something that the son cannot, or something that the spirit can but the father cannot?

In that case it is like saying that God is limited in his actions and needs to be divided into 3 entities in order to achieve whatever it is, does that make sense when you at the same time say that God created time and space and everything and everyone in it?

 

I believe the basic argument would have to be, of course not... They are all equal and capable of all things, and on and on, but by the time they are done explaining, they've basically removed the need for three gods. 

Actually, I couldn't see their doctrine when they taught me, and my studies don't support it so I can't really explain it for you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, andres said:

Some Christians believe everything written in the Bible really happened. Others dont. As far as I know the largest Christian Church (the Catholic) do not (any longer) demand the Bible to be understood in this fundamental way.  Knowledge and education has increased among Christans, and there are just to many food arguments that Moses is a myth. Cant say the percentage of Christians worldwide that believe Moses was real. I am certain that in Sweden they belong to a small minority. Real or not real, Moses story is a part of religious tradition, and it has a message to us.

The Catholic church has never been big on their congregation reading the Bible anyway. It was late 60's when a translation came out that suited both Catholic and Protestant. My Father, who was a member of the Gideons group, gave my cousin a New testament. His priest made him give it back. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 25/07/2017 at 1:10 AM, King-Ali said:

How do you refute the Doctorine of Trinity? How do you persuade someone following trinity that their religion is not right...

Brother please watch some speakers corner videos. I would refer to a speaker called Mansoor and Hashim. They are both Sunnis but the best thing about it is that it is a discussion between a Muslim and a Christian that has been recorded on camera. Basically a real life a scenario. It's on YouTube 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/24/2017 at 8:10 PM, Zavon said:

How do you refute the Doctorine of Trinity? How do you persuade someone following trinity that their religion is not right...

Salam Zavon,

Belief in the doctrine of God being Triune requires faith, same as the belief of God existing requires faith.

Because of this, most Christians will not consider the doctrine of the Trinity adequately "refuted" by either Muslims or Atheists or any other group of people seeking to "persuade someone following trinity that their religion is not right."

The reason I believe God is Triune is mostly due to faith, and hence far no Atheist or Muslim has convinced me otherwise, though I understand their reasons for not believing this doctrine.

There are however people who doubt this doctrine for understandable reasons. Many former Christians have apostated due to doubting the doctrine of the Trinity, as well as other issues they have with Christianity.

Personally, I believe Jesus Christ did not say "Thou must believe God is triune" because what is important to God is obedience. Jesus Christ did focus on obeying our Father in Heaven, and that in my opinion is much more important than focusing on the doctrine of the Trinity.

Peace and God bless you

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎8‎/‎5‎/‎2017 at 8:21 PM, Son of Placid said:

The Catholic church has never been big on their congregation reading the Bible anyway. It was late 60's when a translation came out that suited both Catholic and Protestant. My Father, who was a member of the Gideons group, gave my cousin a New testament. His priest made him give it back. 

That translation is the Confraternity Edition.

lt comes from when the American Catholics copyrighted the Bible in 1912. The reason they did was to stop fake bibles.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/30/2017 at 9:23 PM, hasanhh said:

That translation is the Confraternity Edition.

lt comes from when the American Catholics copyrighted the Bible in 1912. The reason they did was to stop fake bibles.

That translation was the NASB. The first one accepted by Protestants and Catholics.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎7‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 8:49 PM, hasanhh said:

Easy.

Tell them to read their own Gospels and keep track of who says what.

Matthew, Mark, Luke: Gospels say, Satan says, 'son of god'.

Now the two exception points are Matthew's 'Last Suppuer' and one Chr!stian telling has Peter speaking the Words of the Devil -which is why Jesus-a.s. calls Peter a "satan"; OR in another telling, Jesus-a.s. sees the shaytan behind Peter suggesting things and tells the satan assigned to Peter to "get behind me, Satan". None of this occurs in Mark or Luke.

The other exception is the opening of the "Secret Book of Mark" which has two(3?) verses removed to make the "Book of Mark". 

The Book of John is seminarily a "problem" because it mixes in the Words of the Devil quite often into the text. So John contradicts itself within chapters and also across chapters.

The other, holy spook/ghost, ask them what it is.

The verse you are referring to Jesus is reprimanding Peter because he was thinking Earthly when Jesus was speaking spiritually. Jesus was speaking of his death and resurrection. While Peter heard it and said, "Lord this will not happen to you" If a friend of ours was to say he will die, we probably would have acted like Peter, but he did not understand God's plan, that Jesus was SENT as a sacrificial LAMB to fulfill prophecy and die for forgiveness of sin.

That is why Jesus said he was going to die and rise again. Jesus rebuked the spirit of satan who put it in Peters heart to say "You will not die" the same words which are said in your book. 

Jesus had to drink of the cup being God's Sacrificial LAMB. The cup throughout the Bible represents God's wrath, which Jesus had to face on the cross to cover our sins.....The forgiveness of sin through Jesus death is something that Allah is trying to steal from you.. If he steals this from you, your eternity is set and your sins won't be forgiven as long as you don't believe Jesus died and rose again.

Matthew 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2017-07-25 at 2:10 AM, Zavon said:

How do you refute the Doctorine of Trinity? How do you persuade someone following trinity that their religion is not right...

God is not just the trinity. Everything that God creates is him and according to the Bible everything that God created has not been destroyed.

Edited by sefket83

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/27/2017 at 1:35 PM, eThErEaL said:

Actually,

isnt it interesting....

 

the Quran says:  Do not say "Three"...  for that is better for you.

 

My understanding:

It is better if they stop being so hooked to the Doctrine of Trinity given that it requires a deep understanding of metaphysics to see Ultinate Unity of God within it.  So it is better if they simply desist, it will be much easier for them.  

:)

That is wrong understanding because we have another verse which say whoever believe in such a thing is disbeliever:

They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the third of three." And there is no god except one God. And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment. Al-maa’idah 5:73

Edited by Abu Nur

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/17/2018 at 12:43 PM, Abu Nur said:

That is wrong understanding because we have another verse which say whoever believe in such a thing is disbeliever:

They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the third of three." And there is no god except one God. And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment. Al-maa’idah 5:73

This is also wrong understanding.

If you are brought up with a belief and stay with it, it does not make you a disbeliever it makes you a firm believer in your form of religion. You cannot be a disbeliever of religions you've never known.  In this case the "they" must have been more than your average Christian so it's not fair to blanket them all as "disbelievers"  Unless of course it's your agenda.

I wonder how many have spoken to a Christian and all they would talk about was trinity, trinity, trinity.

Far better chance a Muslim brings it up.

The only reason would be to cause more division. That's the difference between Islam and Muslim.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

This is also wrong understanding.

If you are brought up with a belief and stay with it, it does not make you a disbeliever it makes you a firm believer in your form of religion. You cannot be a disbeliever of religions you've never known.  In this case the "they" must have been more than your average Christian so it's not fair to blanket them all as "disbelievers"  Unless of course it's your agenda.

I wonder how many have spoken to a Christian and all they would talk about was trinity, trinity, trinity.

Far better chance a Muslim brings it up.

The only reason would be to cause more division. That's the difference between Islam and Muslim.

Yes you are right, it is not about those Christians who verbally say Trinity but don't think about it or those who don't reject belief in Unity of God. It is about a particular group of Christians who take it so far that it contradict with the verse: "and there is no god but one God". Such a people form plurality to the Unity, when Unity should have no plurality.

My point is that to show that Qur'an does deny the belief of Trinity, because there is only One God without personals. Jesus (as) and The Spirit are creations that are signs of God, not God Himself.

Edited by Abu Nur

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mark 12:28-29

One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?

"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one

Look how Jesus pbuh says the “Lord OUR God” meaning his and their God so how can Jesus be God or part of the trinity when he clearly states that his Lord is one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/17/2018 at 2:43 PM, Abu Nur said:

That is wrong understanding because we have another verse which say whoever believe in such a thing is disbeliever:

They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the third of three." And there is no god except one God. And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment. Al-maa’idah 5:73

But this is not the doctrine of Trinity:  "God is the third of three".    Yes, these people who say that have certainly disbelieved.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, erik said:

Best way to refute trinity is that the Jews never believed in a trinitarian god, the Old Testament never mentions trinity 

One can easly then say:  Quran never mentions "tawhid", so Muslims never believed in tawhid.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, erik said:

Mark 12:28-29

One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?

"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one

Look how Jesus pbuh says the “Lord OUR God” meaning his and their God so how can Jesus be God or part of the trinity when he clearly states that his Lord is one.

There are many answers given for this.  And all of them, if examined from a purely theological standpoint, while being satisfactory for Christians will not be satisfactory for Muslims.

But when you understand Christian Mysticism (or Christian Irfan, if you will),  then you will find it rather inspiring and you won't see most of the statements of Christianity as problematic.   

 

Edited by eThErEaL

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

There are many answers given for this.  And all of them, if examined from a purely theological standpoint, while being satisfactory for Christians will not be satisfactory for Muslims.

But when you understand Christian Mysticism (or Christian Irfan, if you will),  then you will find it rather inspiring and you won't see most of the statements of Christianity as problematic.   

 

Yes and that’s why I’m not Christian anymore because there’s so many explicit verses demonstrating that Jesus wasn’t God in the Bible but Christians twist the meaning of these verses in order to fit in with their beliefs. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

One can easly then say:  Quran never mentions "tawhid", so Muslims never believed in tawhid.  

Quran has explicit verses of God’s oneness such as  in Surah Al-Ikhlas 112:

  1. Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
  2. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
  3. He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
  4. And there is none like unto Him.

which sounds pretty similar to what Jesus said in Mark 12:29:

"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one

So, even tho the word tawhid itself is not in the Quran there’s explicit and clear verses describing tawhid in both Quran and Bible unlike the trinity.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/20/2018 at 5:00 AM, Abu Nur said:

Yes you are right, it is not about those Christians who verbally say Trinity but don't think about it or those who don't reject belief in Unity of God. It is about a particular group of Christians who take it so far that it contradict with the verse: "and there is no god but one God". Such a people form plurality to the Unity, when Unity should have no plurality.

My point is that to show that Qur'an does deny the belief of Trinity, because there is only One God without personals. Jesus (as) and The Spirit are creations that are signs of God, not God Himself.

The Council of Nicaea was a big argument about the duality of God and Jesus. The trinity didn't come around until the second council which was almost around the time of Muhammad so there's a good chance this new theory was spread fast and wide by evangelists. 

Christians are taught that to not believe in a trinity is blasphemy so guess what. Most Christians I know don't really care to debate trinity because they know they have no actual source. The best explanation is almost mechanical. Most also know, (from reading their Bible) that there is no trinity mentioned, and with all the verses which show a distinct difference, trinity is an enigma, so...they always have a doubt in the back of their mind but can't be heard saying so. 

I don't believe God will judge them for their doubt, but reward many for internally knowing better.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/20/2018 at 4:48 PM, erik said:

Quran has explicit verses of God’s oneness such as  in Surah Al-Ikhlas 112:

  1. Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
  2. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
  3. He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
  4. And there is none like unto Him.

which sounds pretty similar to what Jesus said in Mark 12:29:

"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one

So, even tho the word tawhid itself is not in the Quran there’s explicit and clear verses describing tawhid in both Quran and Bible unlike the trinity.

So you agree with me that the word tawhid is not mentioned anywhere in the Quran?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Shakir[21:22]: If there had been in them any gods except Allah, they would both have certainly been in a state of disorder; therefore glory be to Allah, the Lord of the dominion, above what they attribute (to Him).

Edited by haideriam

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

John 8:40 -Jesus called himself a man not 

God. 

 

Timothy 2:5 -Jesus was a human mediator 

 

Matthew 9:6-8  -Jesus was a man with God-given authority 

 

Acts 2:22 and Acts 17:31 -Jesus was the appointed one by God almighty. 

 

1 Corinthians 11:3 -Jesus himself has a God

 

Matthew 4:10 and Mathew 6:6 and John 4:23 -Jesus taught to pray and worship to God almighty

 

Matthew 26:39 and Hebrews 5:7 -Jesus prayed to God almighty while submitting to his will. 

 

John 14:28 -Jesus says God is greater then him

 

Matthew 20:21-23 -Jesus didn’t get to decide who gets to sit in the right and lift in his kingdom, it is up to God almighty. 

 

John 5:30 and John 8:28 -Jesus could do nothing of his own and does what God tells him. 

 

John 7:26 and 14:24 and 12:49 and John 12:49 -Jesus teachings and words were not his.  

 

Mathew -12:32 -Jesus said whoever speaks against the the son of man would be forgiven but whoever spoke against the Holy Spirit (Gabriel) will not be forgiven. 

 

Mathew 28:18- 2peter 1:17- Philippians 2:9- Acts - 3:13- acts 10:38 -Jesus is given authority,glory,honour,power and exaltation by God.

 

John 5:19- John 5:30- John 8:28 -Jesus could do nothing of his own.

 

John 7:16- John 14:24- John 12:49 -Jesus teaching and words were not his own 

 

Luke 18:19 -Jesus questioned being called “good” 

 

1John 4:12 -no one has seen God and jesus’ followers didn’t consider him to be God.

 

Luke 4:41 -Jesus was very offended when people said he was the “literal son of god” Because he knew he was the messiah.

 

 Luke 7:16 -Jesus’ followers saw Jesus as their prophet not the literal “son of god”

 

 Luke 24:19 -Jesus followers told other people Jesus was a prophet. 

 

John 3:2 -Jesus was also known as a teacher and a sign from God 

 

John 6:14 -Jesus was known as a prophet after he performed miracles, prophet Moses prophesied about Jesus that why most of his followers recognised Jesus as prophet and followed him -Deuteronomy 18:18-19 

 

John 7:40 -people recognised Jesus as a prophet after hearing his words 

 

Mathew 21:10-11 -Jesus was introduced to Jerusalem as a prophet. 

 

Jesus affirms the same shema as prophet Moses did (Deuteronomy 6:4-5) Matthew 12:28-29 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The word “Son” is refers to “Servant” and the word “Father” refers to “master” and the reason why the bible mentions these words is to describe the relationship between Jesus, God’s servants and other previous prophets  Because they are obedient to God almighty rules and commands. Sometimes the bible calls Jesus Christ “Lord Jesus Christ” there are two meanings of the word “lord” one refers to “Master” and one meaning refers to “God” when the bible mentions “Lord Jesus Christ” or “our Lord Jesus Christ” is refers to “master Jesus Christ” or “Our master Jesus Christ” obviously in the bible Jesus is the head of man that’s why they call him “Our Lord Jesus Christ” which refers to “Our master Jesus Christ”.  

Term “son of god” is also mentioned in other places in bible to refer to other then Jesus for example  Psalms 2:7 “David: He (God) said to me: you are my SON; today I have become your FATHER” 

Exodus 4:22 “This is what the lord says: Israel is my firstborn SON” 

Obviously there’s metaphor meaning of the term “Firstborn son” and “father”  and “son” 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

So you agree with me that the word tawhid is not mentioned anywhere in the Quran?

The Quran 5:117 - “he (jesus) will say: Glory be to you!  [...] Never did i say to them aught except what you (Allah)  did command me to say: worship Allah. your Lord and my Lord.  Now is there a verse that chimes with it in the bible? John 5:30 -“by myself I can do nothing [...] For I seek not to please myself but Him who sent me” and also John 12:49 “For I did not speak on my own, but father who sent me command me to say all that i have spoken”

Edited by Anonymous2144

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On August 21, 2018 at 2:57 PM, Son of Placid said:

The Council of Nicaea was a big argument about the duality of God and Jesus. The trinity didn't come around until the second council which was almost around the time of Muhammad so there's a good chance this new theory was spread fast and wide by evangelists. 

 

 

The second council of Nicea dealt with iconoclasm, not the concept of the Trinity. 

That's a subject that would have interested Muslims,too, if they existed then,but the Trinitarian doctrines were well established centuries before Second Nicea and Mohammed as part of the earliest Church doctrines.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Anonymous2144 said:

The Quran 5:117 - “he (jesus) will say: Glory be to you!  [...] Never did i say to them aught except what you (Allah)  did command me to say: worship Allah. your Lord and my Lord.  Now is there a verse that chimes with it in the bible? John 5:30 -“by myself I can do nothing [...] For I seek not to please myself but Him who sent me” and also John 12:49 “For I did not speak on my own, but father who sent me command me to say all that i have spoken”

What is this is response to exactly?  

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

What is this is response to exactly?  

 

You believe trinity is true and not made up later on. That’s a verse from Quran and bible that go together and proof that there’s One God not the father the son and the Holy Spirit Which is triune god 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, LeftCoastMom said:

The second council of Nicea dealt with iconoclasm, not the concept of the Trinity. 

That's a subject that would have interested Muslims,too, if they existed then,but the Trinitarian doctrines were well established centuries before Second Nicea and Mohammed as part of the earliest Church doctrines.

 

Jesus rebuked those who called him the literal son of god 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^ I've been over the verses the Church uses for the basis of the Trinity ( including the words of Jesus and their interpretations ) multiple times in this forum and site. In this particular post, I was dealing not with theology, but a historical event which did NOT deal with that particular concept. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Greetings and blessings!

As a Christian, believing Jesus is the Son of God and the Son of Man, I understand Luke 4:41 to say that Jesus did not permit the demons to speak of Him as the Son of God, which they knew Him to be, because it was not yet time for Jesus to reveal His diety...until He raised from the dead.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, MartyS said:

Greetings and blessings!

As a Christian, believing Jesus is the Son of God and the Son of Man, I understand Luke 4:41 to say that Jesus did not permit the demons to speak of Him as the Son of God, which they knew Him to be, because it was not yet time for Jesus to reveal His diety...until He raised from the dead.

Note verse 40 Jesus rebukes a fever. 

A little context shows Jesus healing many ailments, some of which was brought on by demons. "Rebuking" is the act of casting out.

Not allowing demons to speak goes deeper than one verse. We are not to converse with demons. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...