Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله
Zavon

How do you refute Trinity?

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

16 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

What is "made up" ?

Why did you avoid "Satan says" ?

Quote

Matthew, Mark, Luke: Gospels say, Satan says, 'son of god'.

Could you be a little more specific? This reads like a rag. 

According to the NT, Gabriel told Mary she would have a child and that this child would be called the son of God. Jesus is referenced many times as the son of God, not only by satan...In it's proper context, why would satan not know this?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Son of Placid said:

Could you be a little more specific? This reads like a rag. 

According to the NT, Gabriel told Mary she would have a child and that this child would be called the son of God. Jesus is referenced many times as the son of God, not only by satan...In it's proper context, why would satan not know this?

That is anecdotal.

Read through. Keep track of who-says-what. Preponderantly, Satan says s.o.g.(son of god), evil spirits say s.o.g, unclean spirits say s.o.g., Legion says s.o.g. ...

...and in addition to the Last Supper Scene in Matthew, near the end of Mark 6 Jesus again refers to Peter and Satan, denying the s.o.g. stuff.

He is also referred to as "son of Mary" in Mark and elsewhere refers to himself as the Son of Man.

Simple observation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, hasanhh said:

That is anecdotal.

Read through. Keep track of who-says-what. Preponderantly, Satan says s.o.g.(son of god), evil spirits say s.o.g, unclean spirits say s.o.g., Legion says s.o.g. ...

...and in addition to the Last Supper Scene in Matthew, near the end of Mark 6 Jesus again refers to Peter and Satan, denying the s.o.g. stuff.

He is also referred to as "son of Mary" in Mark and elsewhere refers to himself as the Son of Man.

Simple observation.

I'm sure there's a point in there somewhere, but how to focus on satan and ignore the rest? I know it makes a better case, but...something about the whole truth...

The Old Testament speaks of the sons of God, Jesus is called a son of God, Jesus refers to everyone as children of God, calls God His Father, (what's the difference?) later on apostles tell us how to become sons of God,

All that comes to an end because an unclean spirit acknowledges the same?

The whole "s.o.g." thing is totally over rated.

It's an exaggerated stance meant to divide Islam from Christianity and taught to be treated with disgust, therefore sliding the actual point of it all by without notice... back to the mat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

I'm sure there's a point in there somewhere, but how to focus on satan and ignore the rest?

You obviously chose to ignore Satan. Why? Inconvenience?

The Old Testament speaks of the sons of God, Jesus is called a son of God, Jesus refers to everyone as children of God, calls God His Father, (what's the difference?) later on apostles tell us how to become sons of God, But is it recorded that Moses, Abraham or the others spoke the Words of the Devil ? "sons of elohim", Genesis 6 were the "fallen angels" of the early church. That is, "Devils". 

Jesus refers to himself as "son of Man".

Gaylatians 3:26 a 'child of god' is defined as believing in Jesus as an "everything" rather than adhere to the First Commandment. Personally, you can have your idol-witchdoctor in coloured glass, l'll stay with the God-of-Noah, Allah-s.w.t. John 12:19

All that comes to an end because an unclean spirit acknowledges the same?  Not the "end", but the beginning of church dogma.

The whole "s.o.g." thing is totally over rated. We should not be aware of the Words of the Devil? Why? Because Satan says?  

It's an exaggerated stance meant to divide Islam from Christianity and taught to be treated with disgust, therefore sliding the actual point of it all by without notice... back to the mat.  "Exaggerated" Denial ? Islam is not like chr!stianity.  Never will a believer, Jew, 1st Commandment Christian, Muslim, or  just Abrahamic in attitude and actions ... never will any of us yield to the Words of the Devil or admit that "Satan says, ..." is anything but a warning.

.

Edited by hasanhh

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/25/2017 at 8:30 PM, IbnSina said:

How does one within the doctrines of christianity know what is from God and what is from men?

1

 

 

Quote

And if it is from men, on whos authority do you make is obligatory to follow?

 

 

Quote

Is the concept of trinity something that came after the time of prophet Jesus? Who did it come from?

 

Salam,

Yes.  The doctrine came after the time of Jesus Christ.  It is like many of the doctrines of Islam (which have come after the time of the Prophet (S))..... think of the Aqeeda (Creedal) Texts of Shi and Sunni Islam. Christians also needed to have a formal creed, and that is what the Church Fathers set out to do.  Who put together the Aqida of Muslims?  Did the Prophet (S) or the Shia Imams (as) do that?  Of course not.  It was the scholars of Islam that did that (and for good reason, it was needed for as a clarification and as an explicit response to questions and confusions that arose from the Muslim Ummah) .  But I am just giving an analogy between Islam and Christianity and as such showing the similarity between Aqida and Christian Creed will not be a one to one correspondence.  A difference (for instance) is that In Christianity the Church Fathers are given a kind of spiritual authority from Heaven through the institution of the Church (and this believed by Catholics or or by the Eastern Orthodox Church...and someone can correct me if I am wrong about this).  So what the Church Fathers say carries (or should carry) more weight in Christainity than what some Scholar of Islam says about Islamic Doctrine in Islam (unless of course, we have in mind Muslims who are recognized as Awliya...those besides the Imams (as) of course)       

So the doctrine may not have always been there but the reality of the Trinity (for Christians) was always there for it is an eternal reality or Truth (as they will say...for those who believe in it).  That reality, if truly understood, is not in conflict with the perspective of Divine Unity.  Most Christians don't have the capacity to understand that reality... but this is the case with most Muslims who don't have the capacity to understand the reality of Tawhid.  How many Muslims truly understand the reality of Tawhid?  Wouldn't you agree that our understanding of tawhid is like idolatry when compared to the way the Imams (peace and blessings be upon them) have understood or embodied tawhid?

 

 

Quote

Why do christians call the Bible "the holy Bible" if it is like you say? Then it is not holy.

 

Edited by eThErEaL

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, AfricanShia said:

The Quran says: " Cease three!"

Actually,

isnt it interesting....

 

the Quran says:  Do not say "Three"...  for that is better for you.

 

My understanding:

It is better if they stop being so hooked to the Doctrine of Trinity given that it requires a deep understanding of metaphysics to see Ultinate Unity of God within it.  So it is better if they simply desist, it will be much easier for them.  

:)

Edited by eThErEaL

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

Actually,

isnt it interesting....

 

the Quran says:  Do not say "Three"...  for that is better for you.

 

My understanding:

It is better if they stop being so hooked to the Doctrine of Trinity given that it requires a deep understanding of metaphysics to see Ultinate Unity of God within it.  So it is better if they simply desist, it will be much easier for them.  

:)

They feel guided by Allah just as we do. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, AfricanShia said:

They feel guided by Allah just as we do. 

I get that, but to what end?

The average Christian that I've met, when asked about trinity will explain it as they've been taught it, but have no personal details as to how they know. For the most part, they can't wrap their head around it, only accept it. They can't really talk about it because to think otherwise is blasphemous, ( catch 22), so they put it in the back of their mind hoping it doesn't become a problem. If they could be honest, ( or read their scriptures), they would admit that there's too much in the NT that notes the differences. Statements of unison are not statements of equality, nor partnership, nor oneness. Even in their churches, worship God, praise Jesus, ask for the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Why the separation in activities?

They are continually exposed to the contradictions and taught not to see them. It's the same leverage used in every religion because it works so well. 

You can't condemn sheep for being sheep. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Son of Placid said:

I get that, but to what end?

The average Christian that I've met, when asked about trinity will explain it as they've been taught it, but have no personal details as to how they know. For the most part, they can't wrap their head around it, only accept it. They can't really talk about it because to think otherwise is blasphemous, ( catch 22), so they put it in the back of their mind hoping it doesn't become a problem. If they could be honest, ( or read their scriptures), they would admit that there's too much in the NT that notes the differences. Statements of unison are not statements of equality, nor partnership, nor oneness. Even in their churches, worship God, praise Jesus, ask for the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Why the separation in activities?

They are continually exposed to the contradictions and taught not to see them. It's the same leverage used in every religion because it works so well. 

You can't condemn sheep for being sheep. 

I would agree that many religions use such leverage except the path that the Supreme King exposed me to for my own sake.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/24/2017 at 7:10 PM, King-Ali said:

How do you refute the Doctorine of Trinity? How do you persuade someone following trinity that their religion is not right...

so there a number of ways.Some simple questions:

1) Are the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit 3-in-1 or  separate entities?

2) Are they all eternal or did one come before the others?

  • if one came before, then the Trinity is not a true trinity because one of them is superior to the others.

3) If they are all eternal and Jesus died on the cross, then for at least 3 days there were only 2/3 Trinity or some sort of a Duality. And if God dies, how is He eternal.

10 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

 Wouldn't you agree that our understanding of tawhid is like idolatry when compared to the way the Imams (peace and blessings be upon them) have understood or embodied tawhid?

Not at all.

1 hour ago, Son of Placid said:

I get that, but to what end?

The average Christian that I've met, when asked about trinity will explain it as they've been taught it, but have no personal details as to how they know. For the most part, they can't wrap their head around it, only accept it. They can't really talk about it because to think otherwise is blasphemous, ( catch 22), so they put it in the back of their mind hoping it doesn't become a problem. If they could be honest, ( or read their scriptures), they would admit that there's too much in the NT that notes the differences. Statements of unison are not statements of equality, nor partnership, nor oneness. Even in their churches, worship God, praise Jesus, ask for the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Why the separation in activities?

They are continually exposed to the contradictions and taught not to see them. It's the same leverage used in every religion because it works so well. 

You can't condemn sheep for being sheep. 

well said brother.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

How has this got anything to do with yielding to the words of the devil? 

Your impetuous emboldened reply only goes to prove what I said.

Horse Hockey! <---as Col.Potter use to say on MASH.

What l "proved" is you chose the Words of Satan.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

I get that, but to what end?

The average [person-ed.] ... can't wrap their head around it, ...

You can't condemn sheep for being sheep. 

Oh YES you can.

Sura xxxiv:31-33

Sura xxxix:70-72

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...