Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله
Zavon

How do you refute Trinity?

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

11 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

I'm sure there's a point in there somewhere, but how to focus on satan and ignore the rest?

You obviously chose to ignore Satan. Why? Inconvenience?

The Old Testament speaks of the sons of God, Jesus is called a son of God, Jesus refers to everyone as children of God, calls God His Father, (what's the difference?) later on apostles tell us how to become sons of God, But is it recorded that Moses, Abraham or the others spoke the Words of the Devil ? "sons of elohim", Genesis 6 were the "fallen angels" of the early church. That is, "Devils". 

Jesus refers to himself as "son of Man".

Gaylatians 3:26 a 'child of god' is defined as believing in Jesus as an "everything" rather than adhere to the First Commandment. Personally, you can have your idol-witchdoctor in coloured glass, l'll stay with the God-of-Noah, Allah-s.w.t. John 12:19

All that comes to an end because an unclean spirit acknowledges the same?  Not the "end", but the beginning of church dogma.

The whole "s.o.g." thing is totally over rated. We should not be aware of the Words of the Devil? Why? Because Satan says?  

It's an exaggerated stance meant to divide Islam from Christianity and taught to be treated with disgust, therefore sliding the actual point of it all by without notice... back to the mat.  "Exaggerated" Denial ? Islam is not like chr!stianity.  Never will a believer, Jew, 1st Commandment Christian, Muslim, or  just Abrahamic in attitude and actions ... never will any of us yield to the Words of the Devil or admit that "Satan says, ..." is anything but a warning.

.

Edited by hasanhh

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/25/2017 at 8:30 PM, IbnSina said:

How does one within the doctrines of christianity know what is from God and what is from men?

1

 

 

Quote

And if it is from men, on whos authority do you make is obligatory to follow?

 

 

Quote

Is the concept of trinity something that came after the time of prophet Jesus? Who did it come from?

 

Salam,

Yes.  The doctrine came after the time of Jesus Christ.  It is like many of the doctrines of Islam (which have come after the time of the Prophet (S))..... think of the Aqeeda (Creedal) Texts of Shi and Sunni Islam. Christians also needed to have a formal creed, and that is what the Church Fathers set out to do.  Who put together the Aqida of Muslims?  Did the Prophet (S) or the Shia Imams (as) do that?  Of course not.  It was the scholars of Islam that did that (and for good reason, it was needed for as a clarification and as an explicit response to questions and confusions that arose from the Muslim Ummah) .  But I am just giving an analogy between Islam and Christianity and as such showing the similarity between Aqida and Christian Creed will not be a one to one correspondence.  A difference (for instance) is that In Christianity the Church Fathers are given a kind of spiritual authority from Heaven through the institution of the Church (and this believed by Catholics or or by the Eastern Orthodox Church...and someone can correct me if I am wrong about this).  So what the Church Fathers say carries (or should carry) more weight in Christainity than what some Scholar of Islam says about Islamic Doctrine in Islam (unless of course, we have in mind Muslims who are recognized as Awliya...those besides the Imams (as) of course)       

So the doctrine may not have always been there but the reality of the Trinity (for Christians) was always there for it is an eternal reality or Truth (as they will say...for those who believe in it).  That reality, if truly understood, is not in conflict with the perspective of Divine Unity.  Most Christians don't have the capacity to understand that reality... but this is the case with most Muslims who don't have the capacity to understand the reality of Tawhid.  How many Muslims truly understand the reality of Tawhid?  Wouldn't you agree that our understanding of tawhid is like idolatry when compared to the way the Imams (peace and blessings be upon them) have understood or embodied tawhid?

 

 

Quote

Why do christians call the Bible "the holy Bible" if it is like you say? Then it is not holy.

 

Edited by eThErEaL

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, AfricanShia said:

The Quran says: " Cease three!"

Actually,

isnt it interesting....

 

the Quran says:  Do not say "Three"...  for that is better for you.

 

My understanding:

It is better if they stop being so hooked to the Doctrine of Trinity given that it requires a deep understanding of metaphysics to see Ultinate Unity of God within it.  So it is better if they simply desist, it will be much easier for them.  

:)

Edited by eThErEaL

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

Actually,

isnt it interesting....

 

the Quran says:  Do not say "Three"...  for that is better for you.

 

My understanding:

It is better if they stop being so hooked to the Doctrine of Trinity given that it requires a deep understanding of metaphysics to see Ultinate Unity of God within it.  So it is better if they simply desist, it will be much easier for them.  

:)

They feel guided by Allah just as we do. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, AfricanShia said:

They feel guided by Allah just as we do. 

I get that, but to what end?

The average Christian that I've met, when asked about trinity will explain it as they've been taught it, but have no personal details as to how they know. For the most part, they can't wrap their head around it, only accept it. They can't really talk about it because to think otherwise is blasphemous, ( catch 22), so they put it in the back of their mind hoping it doesn't become a problem. If they could be honest, ( or read their scriptures), they would admit that there's too much in the NT that notes the differences. Statements of unison are not statements of equality, nor partnership, nor oneness. Even in their churches, worship God, praise Jesus, ask for the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Why the separation in activities?

They are continually exposed to the contradictions and taught not to see them. It's the same leverage used in every religion because it works so well. 

You can't condemn sheep for being sheep. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Son of Placid said:

I get that, but to what end?

The average Christian that I've met, when asked about trinity will explain it as they've been taught it, but have no personal details as to how they know. For the most part, they can't wrap their head around it, only accept it. They can't really talk about it because to think otherwise is blasphemous, ( catch 22), so they put it in the back of their mind hoping it doesn't become a problem. If they could be honest, ( or read their scriptures), they would admit that there's too much in the NT that notes the differences. Statements of unison are not statements of equality, nor partnership, nor oneness. Even in their churches, worship God, praise Jesus, ask for the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Why the separation in activities?

They are continually exposed to the contradictions and taught not to see them. It's the same leverage used in every religion because it works so well. 

You can't condemn sheep for being sheep. 

I would agree that many religions use such leverage except the path that the Supreme King exposed me to for my own sake.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/24/2017 at 7:10 PM, King-Ali said:

How do you refute the Doctorine of Trinity? How do you persuade someone following trinity that their religion is not right...

so there a number of ways.Some simple questions:

1) Are the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit 3-in-1 or  separate entities?

2) Are they all eternal or did one come before the others?

  • if one came before, then the Trinity is not a true trinity because one of them is superior to the others.

3) If they are all eternal and Jesus died on the cross, then for at least 3 days there were only 2/3 Trinity or some sort of a Duality. And if God dies, how is He eternal.

10 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

 Wouldn't you agree that our understanding of tawhid is like idolatry when compared to the way the Imams (peace and blessings be upon them) have understood or embodied tawhid?

Not at all.

1 hour ago, Son of Placid said:

I get that, but to what end?

The average Christian that I've met, when asked about trinity will explain it as they've been taught it, but have no personal details as to how they know. For the most part, they can't wrap their head around it, only accept it. They can't really talk about it because to think otherwise is blasphemous, ( catch 22), so they put it in the back of their mind hoping it doesn't become a problem. If they could be honest, ( or read their scriptures), they would admit that there's too much in the NT that notes the differences. Statements of unison are not statements of equality, nor partnership, nor oneness. Even in their churches, worship God, praise Jesus, ask for the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Why the separation in activities?

They are continually exposed to the contradictions and taught not to see them. It's the same leverage used in every religion because it works so well. 

You can't condemn sheep for being sheep. 

well said brother.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

How has this got anything to do with yielding to the words of the devil? 

Your impetuous emboldened reply only goes to prove what I said.

Horse Hockey! <---as Col.Potter use to say on MASH.

What l "proved" is you chose the Words of Satan.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

I get that, but to what end?

The average [person-ed.] ... can't wrap their head around it, ...

You can't condemn sheep for being sheep. 

Oh YES you can.

Sura xxxiv:31-33

Sura xxxix:70-72

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, hasanhh said:

Oh YES you can.

Sura xxxiv:31-33

Sura xxxix:70-72

relevance? Ah, yeah. unbeliever = anyone not Shia.

1 hour ago, hasanhh said:

Horse Hockey! <---as Col.Potter use to say on MASH.

What l "proved" is you chose the Words of Satan.

K, you tell me what I choose and what I don't. May as well tell me what I am and what I'm not while you're at it. Once you have me slotted, let me know.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Son of Placid said:

1]   relevance? Ah, yeah. unbeliever = anyone not Shia.

2]  you tell me what I choose and what I don't. May as well tell me what I am and what I'm not while you're at it. Once you have me slotted, let me know.

1] Not so, My Boldfaced reply to your 26July post. quad vide.

2]  You are not "slotted" or stereotyped.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

 

 

 

 

 

Salam,

Yes.  The doctrine came after the time of Jesus Christ.  It is like many of the doctrines of Islam (which have come after the time of the Prophet (S))..... think of the Aqeeda (Creedal) Texts of Shi and Sunni Islam. Christians also needed to have a formal creed, and that is what the Church Fathers set out to do.  Who put together the Aqida of Muslims?  Did the Prophet (S) or the Shia Imams (as) do that?  Of course not.  It was the scholars of Islam that did that (and for good reason, it was needed for as a clarification and as an explicit response to questions and confusions that arose from the Muslim Ummah) .  But I am just giving an analogy between Islam and Christianity and as such showing the similarity between Aqida and Christian Creed will not be a one to one correspondence.  A difference (for instance) is that In Christianity the Church Fathers are given a kind of spiritual authority from Heaven through the institution of the Church (and this believed by Catholics or or by the Eastern Orthodox Church...and someone can correct me if I am wrong about this).  So what the Church Fathers say carries (or should carry) more weight in Christainity than what some Scholar of Islam says about Islamic Doctrine in Islam (unless of course, we have in mind Muslims who are recognized as Awliya...those besides the Imams (as) of course)       

So the doctrine may not have always been there but the reality of the Trinity (for Christians) was always there for it is an eternal reality or Truth (as they will say...for those who believe in it).  That reality, if truly understood, is not in conflict with the perspective of Divine Unity.  Most Christians don't have the capacity to understand that reality... but this is the case with most Muslims who don't have the capacity to understand the reality of Tawhid.  How many Muslims truly understand the reality of Tawhid?  Wouldn't you agree that our understanding of tawhid is like idolatry when compared to the way the Imams (peace and blessings be upon them) have understood or embodied tawhid?

 

 

 

Ws,

What about the rest of my questions?

Can we come to a common ground regarding the concept of trinity and its origin? 

If I were to say that the concept of trinity has no backing in the Bible and if I were to say that the concept of trinity is a man made concept that was created without the approval of prophet Jesus(as), would you agree? And if you argue that they had the prophets approval, then why the need to define it after his gone or would you say such a concept of trinity is not that big of an issue to bring forth? To me it is a huge "game changer".

To me, the concept of trinity, justifies calling prophet Jesus(as) the son of God in accordance with the christian faith, if the concept of trinity was not there then it would make no sense to say that prophet Jesus(as) is the son of God, praying to his father God, actually it still doesnt make sense that God on earth would pray to God somewhere ells, not even the man made concept of trinity can make it sound logical. 

God died because he wanted to save men from the wrath of God so that God would not punish them and as long as you love the son of God who is God, God the father of God, not the God who died in order to save you from God, God wont send you to hell. Sounds logical to you?

 

Also, you cannot compare the stuff that came from fallible men as divine rules to the concept of infallible Imams(as) of the shia faith who cannot say anything wrong. There is a very fundamental difference between these two who makes the comparison invalid in this scenario.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
50 minutes ago, IbnSina said:

If I were to say that the concept of trinity has no backing in the Bible and if I were to say that the concept of trinity is a man made concept that was created without the approval of prophet Jesus(as), would you agree? And if you argue that they had the prophets approval, then why the need to define it after his gone or would you say such a concept of trinity is not that big of an issue to bring forth? To me it is a huge "game changer".

8

The Trinity is arguably in the Bible but not explicitly by NAME.  It is like how a particular way of understanding "Imamat" is argued by Shias to be in the Quran (at least implicitly if not explicitly).  Forget Imamat....  what about TAWHID.  Is "Tawhid" explicitly mentioned in the Quran? No, and it doesn't have to be.   In the same way, "Trinity" is not explicitly mentioned but it is arguably in there. So in the Bible the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all mentioned.  In Mathew we find:

Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit

I love these discussions (by the way) because they make me read the Bible and when I do these verses really speak to my heart (I am surprised they don't speak to you...but I don't blame you).  These are more:

Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,

The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

I and the Father are one.

 

Honestly, for me at least, especially after reading these verses, I would like to say that TRINITY is explicitly mentioned in the Bible.   Let us be fair, honest, and objective when looking at other religions just as we would expect others to be objective, fair and honest when looking at our religion (Islam) and our Book (Quran).   

Quote

To me, the concept of trinity, justifies calling prophet Jesus(as) the son of God in accordance with the christian faith, if the concept of trinity was not there then it would make no sense to say that prophet Jesus(as) is the son of God, praying to his father God, actually it still doesnt make sense that God on earth would pray to God somewhere ells, not even the man made concept of trinity can make it sound logical.

It is not supposed to make sense to everyone.  But as someone who is really involved in the mystical tradition of Islam and other religions, It makes perfect and complete sense to me (alhamdulillah).  It is wonderful and beautiful to be able to see the different religious traditions without them necessarily negating each other (or excluding one another) -- I really thank God for this... and if it is good for you, may He allow you to see this as well inshallah).  If I were you I would not focus on other religions but focus on your own religion and go deep within it (focusing on other religions seem to be distracting you from your real work).  

But my point is the following:  Trinity is not in conflict with logic (it is supra-rational but not rational).  This is the same with understanding God.  To truly know Allah one has go "beyond" his rational faculty and into his heart's spirit.  He will find that such a knowledge is not in contradiction or is not in opposition to his reason but that it is more than what his reason can grasp.       

Quote

God died because he wanted to save men from the wrath of God so that God would not punish them and as long as you love the son of God who is God, God the father of God, not the God who died in order to save you from God, God wont send you to hell. Sounds logical to you?

It makes sense to me.  rather beautiful  I should say.  (I honestly mean it).  

Edited by eThErEaL

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

The Trinity is arguably in the Bible but not explicitly by NAME.  It is like how a particular way of understanding "Imamat" is argued by Shias to be in the Quran (at least implicitly if not explicitly).  Forget Imamat....  what about TAWHID.  Is "Tawhid" explicitly mentioned in the Quran? No, and it doesn't have to be.   In the same way, "Trinity" is not explicitly mentioned but it is arguably in there. So in the Bible the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all mentioned.  In Mathew we find:

Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit

I love these discussions (by the way) because they make me read the Bible and when I do these verses really speak to my heart (I am surprised they don't speak to you...but I don't blame you).  These are more:

Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,

The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

I and the Father are one.

 

Honestly, for me at least, especially after reading these verses, I would like to say that TRINITY is explicitly mentioned in the Bible.   Let us be fair, honest, and objective when looking at other religions just as we would expect others to be objective, fair and honest when looking at our religion (Islam) and our Book (Quran).   

 

What do you mean "our religion" and "our Book"? It says your religion is "NOTHING" on your user profile.

I feel like you only answer the questions you feel you have a good answer for.

What about all my other questions? 

Why do you even compare the holy Quran to the Bible? According to you, the Bible is not holy, so why would you compare the content of a book which contains purely divine revelations with the content of a book who man has meddled with and distorted to fit their personal agendas? 

What do you mean Tawhid has not been mentioned in the holy Qur'an? Do you want me to recite all the ayahs?

Have you heard surah Al-Ikhlas?

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, IbnSina said:

 

What do you mean "our religion" and "our Book"? It says your religion is "NOTHING" on your user profile.

 

interesting isn't it?

Quote

I feel like you only answer the questions you feel you have a good answer for.

That is a good start.  At least you are saying that I have good answers to the questions I choose to answer (alhamdulillah).

I feel can write a whole book in response to your questions.  But I don't think you would read it or be receptive to it.  

My point regarding "tawhid" is that the word "tawhid" is not mentioned in Quran.  In the same way the word "Trinity" is not mentioned in the Bible.  But the teaching is there as I pointed out with those verses.  

 

 

Edited by eThErEaL

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

@eThErEaL Do you think Quran has any verses that objects trinity? or are there any verses from the Quran that objects certain concepts of Christianity?

What is your view regarding this?

Every sacred religion has an inward and an outward, an essence and a form, a kernel and a shell, an esoteric and an exoteric dimension.  The outward of every sacred religion is different but the inward of every sacred religion is in fact all One Religion (this is called sometimes as Din al-Fitrah, Din of the Hanifs, Primordial Religion or Religion of the Heart, it is Al-Islam or Universal Submission but in the most universal sense of the term ).  Quran is against almost everything outward regarding Christianity.  It has to be, because if it were not against the outward form of Christianity (if it were not against everything that distinguishes Christianity from Islam) the two religions would not be different outwardly (they would not be two different religions).  For example, a tree has to have properties which are opposed to a mountain, if they did not have any opposing properties whatsoever then they would be the same thing!  But this is not God's plan of course.  He intends to create different paths for different people.  

Edited by eThErEaL

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

Every sacred religion has an inward and an outward, an essence and a form, a kernel and a shell, an esoteric and an exoteric dimension

Yeah, but my point is that Allah clearly rejects the doctrine of trinity because it has no ground. You say that the idea of trinity is in the bible, and compare that with Imamat. However, bible has been altered, so how will you know whether that was the word of god?

However, the fact that Allah clearly rejects it (Quran 5:73) shows that this doctrine was was completely false. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

Yeah, but my point is that Allah clearly rejects the doctrine of trinity because it has no ground. You say that the idea of trinity is in the bible, and compare that with Imamat. However, bible has been altered, so how will you know whether that was the word of god?

However, the fact that Allah clearly rejects it (Quran 5:73) shows that this doctrine was was completely false. 

Let us assume the Quran completely rejects the Trinity (which I don't think is true since The Quran says "desist from saying three, it would be better for you") then I am fine with it based on the explanation I gave in my previous post regarding outward and inward dimensions of religion.  I am fine with it because Quran is not meant to outwardly conform to Christianity.

The doctrine of Trinity is true because it makes perfect sense when understoood from a mystical point of view (it can be verified with the heart).  Trinity is a sacred doctrine for Christians, not only because it is in the Bible but also because God cannot possibly misguide so many millions of people over successive generations.  He would not let that happen.    

Edited by eThErEaL

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...