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In the Name of God بسم الله

Predestination

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Greetings. This is a spin-off discussion from another thread where @Mansur Bakhtiari responded to an article that I had posted with the following-

Point 2: In Shi'i theology, according to Sheikh Mohammad Shomali, does not incorporate predestination. So in Shia Islam man can change its destiny, and the ahadith mentioned say that humans changed their destiny to be not better, but worse.

First of all, I want to be clear that this is not a debate. If anyone other than Mansur wishes to discuss, please keep in mind that I'm not trying to change anyone's mind nor am I going to have my mind changed. 

Brother, you mentioned that Shia theology does not incorporate predestination. I am not very familiar with Twelver Shia theology or sources. Many of my friends are Twelver Shia, but we don't usually discuss religion in depth, only talking about our various rituals and how they are similar/how they differ. I prefer to see all of humanity as my family and not get into nitpicky arguments over religious teachings that, in my opinion, are mostly irrelevant in the modern age. 

However, I would like you to clarify your statements about predestination and the ability of man to change his destiny. It seems that you believe in free-will, if I am correct?  

I am neither being harsh nor am I pronouncing Takfir on you when I say this (as I mentioned earlier, I believe that all of humanity is inherently good and should be treated as brothers, and even moreso amongst Muslims), but in my view, one who believes in free-will is an Atheist. 

Allow me to explain. We all believe in a God (I assume). To me, this God is beyond attributes because he created all attributes. However, such conceptions are very difficult, if not impossible for our feeble human minds to comprehend. Therefore, we have come up with many ways to describe God through attributes (Asma al-Husna), etc. One of these main attributes is the all-knowing. If God is all-knowing, then God must know the future since future events are part of "all". For example, I know the future in certain respects. I am 100% confident that the earth will complete a rotation tomorrow and thus the sun will appear to rise in the sky. But I am not all-knowing about the future, because that is impossible for a human. But God is all-knowing. If God knows the future, and every detail of what will happen, then the future is going to happen one way or another. It is set in stone, or "predestined" if you will. If God "knows" the future, and an event occurs differently from how he "knows" it will happen, then he does not really know the future, he is merely speculating. And if God is only speculating about the future and does not truly know what will happen, then he is not all-knowing. If God is not all-knowing, then he is not God because the very definition of God is all-knowing. Therefore, if you accept that the future is not 100% set in stone, then God must not exist. 

What are your thoughts?  Can free-will be accepted while still believing in an all-knowing God?  Can there be a God that is not all-knowing?

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Off hand, and we also had this said in high school, the problem with predestination is that provocative: "lf l am already predestined then why should l bother to behave?" is asked.

 

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Just now, ali_fatheroforphans said:

In Shia theology we believe in free will and also predestination. 

So take the middle path.

I think some people are predestined. Such as those 'community troublemakers'  revealed in Qur'an.

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42 minutes ago, Guerrilla said:

Greetings. This is a spin-off discussion from another thread where @Mansur Bakhtiari responded to an article that I had posted with the following-

 

First of all, I want to be clear that this is not a debate. If anyone other than Mansur wishes to discuss, please keep in mind that I'm not trying to change anyone's mind nor am I going to have my mind changed. 

Brother, you mentioned that Shia theology does not incorporate predestination. I am not very familiar with Twelver Shia theology or sources. Many of my friends are Twelver Shia, but we don't usually discuss religion in depth, only talking about our various rituals and how they are similar/how they differ. I prefer to see all of humanity as my family and not get into nitpicky arguments over religious teachings that, in my opinion, are mostly irrelevant in the modern age. 

However, I would like you to clarify your statements about predestination and the ability of man to change his destiny. It seems that you believe in free-will, if I am correct?  

I am neither being harsh nor am I pronouncing Takfir on you when I say this (as I mentioned earlier, I believe that all of humanity is inherently good and should be treated as brothers, and even moreso amongst Muslims), but in my view, one who believes in free-will is an Atheist. 

Allow me to explain. We all believe in a God (I assume). To me, this God is beyond attributes because he created all attributes. However, such conceptions are very difficult, if not impossible for our feeble human minds to comprehend. Therefore, we have come up with many ways to describe God through attributes (Asma al-Husna), etc. One of these main attributes is the all-knowing. If God is all-knowing, then God must know the future since future events are part of "all". For example, I know the future in certain respects. I am 100% confident that the earth will complete a rotation tomorrow and thus the sun will appear to rise in the sky. But I am not all-knowing about the future, because that is impossible for a human. But God is all-knowing. If God knows the future, and every detail of what will happen, then the future is going to happen one way or another. It is set in stone, or "predestined" if you will. If God "knows" the future, and an event occurs differently from how he "knows" it will happen, then he does not really know the future, he is merely speculating. And if God is only speculating about the future and does not truly know what will happen, then he is not all-knowing. If God is not all-knowing, then he is not God because the very definition of God is all-knowing. Therefore, if you accept that the future is not 100% set in stone, then God must not exist. 

What are your thoughts?  Can free-will be accepted while still believing in an all-knowing God?  Can there be a God that is not all-knowing?

You can search and will find that these notion have been fully discussed. 

Here should be our concern. Because by default, as a Creation, you can't pry into to the working of the Creator. Not Logical/rational. And this will not stop you form recognizing Him(awj).

 

Quote
Concerning (qada') Destiny And Decree (qadar)1

Says the Shaykh Abu Ja'far: Our belief concerning this is the reply of (Imam Ja'far) as-Sadiq to Zurara when he was asked: What do you say, O my Leader, concerning destiny (qada) and decree (qadar)? He said: I say that when Allah will collect the slaves on the Day of Resurrection, He will ask them concerning what He had enjoined on them, and will not question them concerning what He had destined for them.2

https://www.al-islam.org/a-shiite-creed-shaykh-saduq/concerning-qada-destiny-and-decree-qadar

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3 hours ago, Guerrilla said:

Greetings. This is a spin-off discussion from another thread where @Mansur Bakhtiari responded to an article that I had posted with the following-

 

First of all, I want to be clear that this is not a debate. If anyone other than Mansur wishes to discuss, please keep in mind that I'm not trying to change anyone's mind nor am I going to have my mind changed. 

Brother, you mentioned that Shia theology does not incorporate predestination. I am not very familiar with Twelver Shia theology or sources. Many of my friends are Twelver Shia, but we don't usually discuss religion in depth, only talking about our various rituals and how they are similar/how they differ. I prefer to see all of humanity as my family and not get into nitpicky arguments over religious teachings that, in my opinion, are mostly irrelevant in the modern age. 

However, I would like you to clarify your statements about predestination and the ability of man to change his destiny. It seems that you believe in free-will, if I am correct?  

I am neither being harsh nor am I pronouncing Takfir on you when I say this (as I mentioned earlier, I believe that all of humanity is inherently good and should be treated as brothers, and even moreso amongst Muslims), but in my view, one who believes in free-will is an Atheist. 

Allow me to explain. We all believe in a God (I assume). To me, this God is beyond attributes because he created all attributes. However, such conceptions are very difficult, if not impossible for our feeble human minds to comprehend. Therefore, we have come up with many ways to describe God through attributes (Asma al-Husna), etc. One of these main attributes is the all-knowing. If God is all-knowing, then God must know the future since future events are part of "all". For example, I know the future in certain respects. I am 100% confident that the earth will complete a rotation tomorrow and thus the sun will appear to rise in the sky. But I am not all-knowing about the future, because that is impossible for a human. But God is all-knowing. If God knows the future, and every detail of what will happen, then the future is going to happen one way or another. It is set in stone, or "predestined" if you will. If God "knows" the future, and an event occurs differently from how he "knows" it will happen, then he does not really know the future, he is merely speculating. And if God is only speculating about the future and does not truly know what will happen, then he is not all-knowing. If God is not all-knowing, then he is not God because the very definition of God is all-knowing. Therefore, if you accept that the future is not 100% set in stone, then God must not exist. 

What are your thoughts?  Can free-will be accepted while still believing in an all-knowing God?  Can there be a God that is not all-knowing?

No one is capable of answering this question. 

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5 hours ago, Guerrilla said:

What are your thoughts?  Can free-will be accepted while still believing in an all-knowing God?  Can there be a God that is not all-knowing?

 

A 'Creator God' that is not fully aware of the future consequences of his creative act is not a God, he is an irresponsible, capricious entity.

Therefore, the Principle of Sufficient Reason is a fundamental Pillar in Shia Theology.
(قانون العلية or قانون السببية and it's: مفهوم اللزوم العقلي الذي هو مبدأ بديهي أولي وهو ما أطلقنا عليه بالسببية العقلية )

If everything that exists has a ‘reason’ for its existence and the source of that reason is ‘random chance’ then you do have some free will.
But if the source of that ‘reason’ is God then we have no free will.

There is no getting away from that.

wslm.

*

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Rejection of free will is against common sense & moral/legal responsibility.

Pre-creation knowledge has nothing to do with free will. A teacher knows for sure student A will fail the exam, before giving the exam, how could the teacher be responsible for the student's failure?

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1 hour ago, Quisant said:


But if the source of that ‘reason’ is God then we have no free will.

Basic question is do you believe in the Ultimate Reality? If not whatever you/we  call it, will not matter in the secondary issues. Who/how/what/where is He, or Why does this happen are secondary issues. Secondary issues, do not impact ones basic realization and recognition of the Superior Intellect/Power/Reality. 

Issue of Random is a dead issue, anyone with intellect will admit to this reality.

For people who do believe in "The God". This does not negate freewill. 

So, If you are an Atheist, which is a phantom phenomenon. Its not even real. If you are an agnostic, still you cant deny the Ultimate/intellect/superior/Power. 

So, if you agnostic, ( Not Sure), there is no conversation to be had. What are you trying to inform us here, if you do not even believe or prove something does not exist. ?  

Don't you think its a lame attempt to utilize secondary issues to create doubt, while you do not believe in the basics?

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2 hours ago, mesbah said:

A teacher knows for sure student A will fail the exam, before giving the exam, how could the teacher be responsible for the student's failure?

You think God is like a teacher? I don't think teachers have the ability to create anything.

God's act of creation essentially "predetermines" one's actions, stripping one of free will.

 

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55 minutes ago, S.M.H.A. said:

Basic question is do you believe in the Ultimate Reality? If not whatever you/we  call it, will not matter in the secondary issues. Who/how/what/where is He, or Why does this happen are secondary issues. Secondary issues, do not impact ones basic realization and recognition of the Superior Intellect/Power/Reality. 

Issue of Random is a dead issue, anyone with intellect will admit to this reality.

For people who do believe in "The God". This does not negate freewill. 

So, If you are an Atheist, which is a phantom phenomenon. Its not even real. If you are an agnostic, still you cant deny the Ultimate/intellect/superior/Power. 

So, if you agnostic, ( Not Sure), there is no conversation to be had. What are you trying to inform us here, if you do not even believe or prove something does not exist. ?  

Don't you think its a lame attempt to utilize secondary issues to create doubt, while you do not believe in the basics?

Irrelevant lines of criticisms.

Answer this.

Is it possible to do other than what God knows you will do?

Yes?  No?

*

 

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36 minutes ago, Quisant said:

Irrelevant lines of criticisms.

Answer this.

Is it possible to do other than what God knows you will do?

Yes?  No?

*

 

How do you label what I said as Criticism? and How is it Irrelevant to the Question of 'The God".

I should say that an involvement on as Atheist, is Irrelevant in this discussion. As you do not even believe in the Reality of God. It is illogical and irrational to start making words with out understanding the Alphabet. 

Why would any one with a rational mind, will debate secondary issues. To say, what is possible or not possible for something that you do not believe in is not academic/rational or logical. 

Secondary issues, will not solve your fundamental issue. Which is obvious to All Created things/beings unless you are a random issue, without a purpose, in this case to ask a question of purpose for something that has no purpose is illogical. 

 

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1 hour ago, S.M.H.A. said:

As you do not even believe in the Reality of God. It is illogical and irrational to start making words with out understanding the Alphabet. 

Nobody in this world has the monopoly on reality and  your appeals to authority are childish reactions,not valid arguments.

As I thought, you are not going to answer my question.

1 hour ago, S.M.H.A. said:

Secondary issues, will not solve your fundamental issue.

I do not have fundamental issues, perhaps you do.

All the best.

 

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4 hours ago, Quisant said:

You think God is like a teacher? I don't think teachers have the ability to create anything.

God's act of creation essentially "predetermines" one's actions, stripping one of free will.

 

The OP was talking about the role of knowledge in predestination, I said Knowledge per se, has nothing to do with free will.

However, even the combination of knowledge and creation doesn't necessarily relate to predestination. 

In the teacher analogy, Creation means giving a chance to the students for the test.

A teacher gives the chance of test to all students, knowing certain students will fail.

 

Edited by mesbah
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A lot of the posts in this thread have been off-topic.  Please remain on topic.  Please do not post links or videos, that is a cop-out to the fact that you do not know enough of what you are talking about.  Please do not make baseless accusations against another person.  Please do not quote sectarian hadeeths as part of an argument (you can quote them if you are merely explaining the reasoning behind Twelver belief in free-will).  Thank you.

 

12 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

In Shia theology we believe in free will and also predestination. 

So we take the middle path.

Care to explain this?  They are pretty much opposites.

11 hours ago, S.M.H.A. said:

Here should be our concern. Because by default, as a Creation, you can't pry into to the working of the Creator. Not Logical/rational. And this will not stop you form recognizing Him(awj).

Do you deny the attributes of God?

7 hours ago, Quisant said:

 

A 'Creator God' that is not fully aware of the future consequences of his creative act is not a God, he is an irresponsible, capricious entity.

Therefore, the Principle of Sufficient Reason is a fundamental Pillar in Shia Theology.
(قانون العلية or قانون السببية and it's: مفهوم اللزوم العقلي الذي هو مبدأ بديهي أولي وهو ما أطلقنا عليه بالسببية العقلية )

If everything that exists has a ‘reason’ for its existence and the source of that reason is ‘random chance’ then you do have some free will.
But if the source of that ‘reason’ is God then we have no free will.

There is no getting away from that.

wslm.

*

I agree.  Thanks for putting it into more eloquent words than I could have.

7 hours ago, mesbah said:

Rejection of free will is against common sense & moral/legal responsibility.

Pre-creation knowledge has nothing to do with free will. A teacher knows for sure student A will fail the exam, before giving the exam, how could the teacher be responsible for the student's failure?

1.) "Rejection of free will is against common sense" is a logical fallacy.  

2.) Rejecting free will is not against moral and legal responsibility.  Sure, in some places where the criminal system is based on punishment, that is not fair.  But in many places in the world, the criminal system is based on rehabilitation.  Take a criminal and rehabilitate him so that he can re-enter society as a productive and crime-free citizen.  As for moral responsibility, the Qur'an says that God will forgive whom he wills and not forgive whom he wills.  Is this also against moral responsibility?  It seems, at face value, arbitrary.

3.) The teacher cannot know for sure, that is impossible.  Also, the teacher did not create the student nor the student's ability to either pass or fail the exam.  If the teacher did, then it would be predestination.  Your argument actually supports my conclusions.

1 hour ago, mesbah said:

The OP was talking about the role of knowledge in predestination, I said Knowledge per se, has nothing to do with free will.

However, even the combination of knowledge and creation doesn't necessarily relate to predestination. 

In the teacher analogy, Creation means giving a chance to the students for the test.

A teacher gives the chance of test to all students, knowing certain students will fail.

 

Knowledge has nothing to do with free-will?  So, can someone choose to do something different from what God knows that he will do?  If yes, then God is not all-knowing, thus there is no God.  If no, then you do not have free-will.

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Also, even though I am asserting that belief in free-will makes one an Atheist, I also would like to clarify that there are many Atheists that do not believe in free-will either, they are part of a philosophy called determinism whereby all human actions are determined by previous experiences and environmental factors (instead of the pre-knowledge of God).  

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53 minutes ago, Guerrilla said:

Also, even though I am asserting that belief in free-will makes one an Atheist, I also would like to clarify that there are many Atheists that do not believe in free-will either, they are part of a philosophy called determinism whereby all human actions are determined by previous experiences and environmental factors (instead of the pre-knowledge of God).  

Let me utilize Allah(awj) blessing( Free Will) and ask, Is this going to end with Anyone Who Did any Evil in the Past- I t was predetermined So They are all going to Heaven Story? 

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2 hours ago, Guerrilla said:

Take a criminal

What makes a criminal,  a criminal?

A: his free will, otherwise he is a natural cause.

2 hours ago, Guerrilla said:

is based on rehabilitation

Most of those rehabilitation involve some form of punishment, at least according to the criminal's perspective (hence they generally run away from 'rehabilitation')

2 hours ago, Guerrilla said:

"Rejection of free will is against common sense" is a logical fallacy.  

Common sense says that at this moment you can either read this post or stop, take this university major or that, marry this person or not, aren't these common sense? Why else people spend hours to make the right choice? Labeling straight forward facts as fallacy, is a fallacy.

2 hours ago, Guerrilla said:

the Qur'an says that God will forgive whom he wills and not forgive whom he wills.

From among the sinners He will forgive some, upon will, and His will stems from His wisdom. That verse doesn't say He forgives without reason.

Your lord does not mistreat people. Quran.

 

2 hours ago, Guerrilla said:

.) The teacher cannot know for sure, that is impossible

Why impossible? Might be rare, but not impossible. 

 

2 hours ago, Guerrilla said:

teacher did not create

Creation means giving the exam.

He created life and death to test you. Quran

1 hour ago, Guerrilla said:

I am asserting that belief in free-will makes one an Atheist

The belief in predestination makes one irresponsible, if not an enemy of God.

 

2 hours ago, Guerrilla said:

So, can someone choose to do something different from what God knows that he will do?

یمحوا الله ما يشاء و يثبت و عنده ام الكتاب

 

Edited by mesbah
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19 minutes ago, mesbah said:

What makes a criminal,  a criminal?

A: his free will, otherwise he is a natural cause.

A criminal is somebody that commits a crime.  Free-will is irrelevant to this definition.

Most of those rehabilitation involve some form of punishment, at least according to the criminal's perspective (hence they generally run away from 'rehabilitation')

Yes, rehabilitation involves punishment but the end goal shouldn't be to make the criminal suffer with no other outcome.  If you break a small rule at home, your mother might hit you as a "punishment" so that you will not do it again.  This is done to "rehabilitate" the child so that the child will not perform that action again.  Mothers don't chain up their children and whip them until they're bleeding (punishment for the sake of punishment).

Common sense says that at this moment you can either read this post or stop, take this university major or that, marry this person or not, aren't these common sense? Why else people spend hours to make the right choice? Labeling straight forward facts as fallacy, is a fallacy.

No, those are not common sense.  I won't get into details, but the psychology of choice is a very interesting topic.  Why did you choose to be a Muslim?  99% chance that it's because that was what you were raised in.  1% chance it's because you converted and the conversion was due to somebody preaching Islam to you and you being convinced by it.  There is a 0% chance that you just woke up one day and with no prodding or convincing decided that being a Muslim sounded like a good idea.  I don't think you understand what the meaning of a fallacy is.

From among the sinners He will forgive some, upon will, and His will stems from His wisdom. That verse doesn't say He forgives without reason.

It doesn't say there will be a reason either.  The default is no reason and the person postulating a reason has the burden of proof.

Your lord does not mistreat people. Quran.

I never said he does.

Why impossible? Might be rare, but not impossible. 

100% impossible.  Maybe the student studied the night before without the teacher knowing.  Maybe the student already knew the material and only pretended to be ignorant.  Maybe the student suddenly understands the material while taking the test.  It is 100% impossible for a human teacher to know with 100% certainty that a student will pass or fail a test.  Claiming that it is possible is shirk.  There [bold]are[/bold] things that can be known with 100% certainty, but the outcome of a student's exam is not one of them.

Creation means giving the exam.

No it does not.  The teacher may have created the exam, but they most certainly did not create the student, or the student's ability to either pass or fail the exam.  Claiming that the teacher created the student's capacity for obtaining knowledge is shirk.

He created life and death to test you. Quran

He created humans to worship him.  Quran.  (See?  I can do that too.  It doesn't mean that I'm right and you're wrong, or that you're right and I'm wrong.  Please stick to the topic.)

The belief in predestination makes one irresponsible, enemy of God.

Evidence?

 

یمحوا الله ما يشاء و يثبت و عنده ام الكتاب

That is not an answer.

هاتوا برهانكم إن كنتم صادقين

 

Edited by Guerrilla
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24 minutes ago, Guerrilla said:

 I just want to understand the opposing side.

ان الصادق علیه السلام سئل: هل اجبر الله العباد علی المعاصی؟ فقال الصادق علیه السلام: هو اعدل من ذلک. فقیل له: فهل فوض الیهم؟ فقال علیه السلام: هو اعز و اقهر لهم من ذلک. و روی عنه، انه قال: الناس فی القدر علی ثلاثه اوجه: رجل یزعم ان الامر مفوض الیه، فقد وهن الله فی سلطانه فهو هالک، و رجل یزعم ان الله جل و عز اجبر العباد علی المعاصی و کلفهم مالا یطیقون فقد ظلم الله فی حکمه، فهو هالک، و رجل یزعم ان الله کلف العباد ما یطیقون و لم یکلفهم ما لا یطیقون، فاذا احسن حمد الله، و اذا اساء استغفر الله، فهذا مسلم بالغ. فاخبر علیه السلام: ان من تقلد الجبر و التفویض، و دان بهما فهو علی خلاف الحق، فقد شرحت الجبر الذی من دان به یلزمه الخطا، و ان الذی یتقلد التفویض یلزمه الباطل، فصارت المنزله بین المنزلتین بینهما. ثم قال علیه السلام: و اضرب لکل باب من هذه الابواب مثلا یقرب المعنی للطالب، و یسهل له البحث عن شرحه تشهد به محکمات آیات الکتاب، و تحقق تصدیقه عند ذوی الالباب، و بالله التوفیق والعصمه.

فاما الجبر الذی یلزم من دان به الخطا فهو قول من زعم ان الله جل و عز اجبر العباد علی المعاصی و عاقبهم علیها، و من قال بهذا القول، فقد ظلم الله فی حکمه و کذبه و رد علیه قوله: (و لا یظلم ربک احدا) [۶۷] ، و قوله: (ذلک بما قدمت یداک و ان الله لیس بظلام للعبید) [۶۸] ، و قوله: (ان الله لا یظلم الناس شیئا و لکن الناس انفسهم یظلمون) [۶۹] ، مع آی کثیره فی ذکر هذا. فمن زعم انه مجبر علی المعاصی، فقد احال بذنبه علی الله و قد ظلمه فی عقوبته، و من ظلم الله، فقد کذب کتابه، و من کذب کتابه، فقد لزمه الکفر باجتماع الامه، و مثل ذلک مثل رجل ملک عبدا مملوکا لا یملک نفسه، و لا یملک عرضا من عرض الدنیا و یعلم مولاه ذلک منه، فامره علی علم منه بالمصیر الی السوق لحاجه یاتیه بها، ولم یملکه ثمن ما یاتیه به من حاجته و علم المالک ان علی الحاجه رقیبا لا یطمع احد فی اخذها منه الا بما یرضی به من الثمن، و قد وصف مالک هذا العبد نفسه بالعدل و النصفه، و اظهار الحکمه و نفی الجور، و اوعد عبده ان لم یاته بحاجته ان یعاقبه علی علم منه بالرقیب الذی علی حاجته انه سیمنعه، و علم ان المملوک لا یملک ثمنها و لم یملکه ذلک. فلما صار العبد الی السوق و جاء لیاخذ حاجته التی بعثه المولی لها، وجد علیها مانعا یمنع منها الا بشراء، و لیس یملک العبد ثمنها، فانصرف الی مولاه خائبا بغیر قضاء حاجته، فاغتاظ مولاه من ذلک و عاقبه علیه، الیس یجب فی عدله و حکمه ان لا یعاقبه، و هو یعلم ان عبده لا یملک عرضا من عروض الدنیا و لم یملکه ثمن حاجته، فان عاقبه عاقبه ظالما معتدیا علیه، مبطلا لما وصف من عدله و حکمته و نصفته، و ان لم یعاقبه کذب نفسه فی وعیده ایاه حین اوعده بالکذب و الظلم اللذین ینفیان العدل و الحکمه، تعالی عما یقولون علوا کبیرا. فمن دان بالجبر او بما یدعو الی الجبر، فقد ظلم الله و نسبه الی الجور و العدوان، اذ اوجب علی من اجبره العقوبه، و من زعم ان الله اجبر العباد، فقد اوجب علی قیاس قوله: ان الله یدفع عنهم العقوبه، و من زعم ان الله یدفع عن اهل المعاصی العذاب، فقد کذب الله فی وعیده حیث یقول: (بلی من کسب سیئه و احاطت به خطیئته فاولئک اصحاب النار هم فیها خالدون) [۷۰] ، و قوله: (ان الذین یاکلون اموال الیتامی ظلما انما یاکلون فی بطونهم نارا و سیصلون سعیرا) [۷۱] و قوله: (ان الذین کفروا بآیاتنا سوف نصلیهم نارا کلما نضجت جلودهم بدلناهم جلودا غیرها لیذوقوا العذاب ان الله کان عزیزا حکیما) [۷۲] مع آی کثیره فی هذا الفن ممن کذب وعید الله. و یلزمه فی تکذیبه آیه من کتاب الله الکفر، و هو ممن قال الله: (افتومنون ببعض الکتاب و تکفرون ببعض فما جزاء من یفعل ذلک منکم الا خزی فی الحیاه الدنیا و یوم القیامه یردون الی اشد العذاب و ما الله بغافل عما تعملون) [۷۳]

بل نقول: ان الله جل و عز جازی العباد علی اعمالهم، و یعاقبهم علی افعالهم بالاستطاعه التی ملکهم ایاها، فامرهم و نهاهم بذلک، و نطق کتابه: (من جاء بالحسنه فله عشر امثالها و من جاء بالسیئه فلا یجزی الا مثلها و هم لا یظلمون) [۷۴] ، و قال جل ذکره: (یوم تجد کل نفس ما عملت من خیر محضرا و ما عملت من سوء تودلو ان بینها و بینه امدا بعیدا و یحذرکم الله نفسه) [۷۵] و قال: (الیوم تجزی کل نفس بما کسبت لا ظلم الیوم) [۷۶] . فهذه آیات محکمات تنفی الجبر و من دان به، و مثلها فی القرآن کثیر، اختصرنا ذلک لئلا یطول الکتاب، و بالله التوفیق.

و اما التفویض الذی ابطله الصادق علیه السلام و اخطا من دان به و تقلده فهو قول القائل: ان الله جل ذکره فوض الی العباد اختیاره امره و نهیه و اهملهم. و فی هذا کلام دقیق لمن یذهب الی تحریره و دقته، و الی هذا ذهبت الائمه المهتدیه من عتره الرسول صلی الله علیه و آله، فانهم قالوا: لو فوض الیهم علی جهه الاهمال لکان لازما له رضا ما اختاروه و استوجبوا منه الثواب، و لم یکن علیهم فیما جنوه العقاب اذا کان الاهمال واقعا. و تنصرف هذه المقاله علی معنیین: اما ان یکون العباد تظاهروا علیه، فالزموه قبول اختیارهم بآرائهم ضروره کره ذلک، ام احب فقد لزمه الوهن، او یکون جل و عز عجز عن تعبدهم بالامر و النهی علی ارادته کرهوا، او احبوا ففوض امره و نهیه الیهم، و اجراهما علی محبتهم اذ عجز عن تعبدهم بارادته، فجعل الاختیار الیهم فی الکفر و الایمان. و مثل ذلک مثل رجل ملک عبدا ابتاعه لیخدمه، و یعرف له فضل ولایته و یقف عند امره و نهیه، و ادعی مالک العبد انه قاهر عزیز حکیم، فامر عبده و نهاه، و وعده علی اتباع امره عظیم الثواب، و اوعده علی معصیته الیم العقاب، فخالف العبد اراده مالکه، و لم یقف عند امره و نهیه، فای امر امره، او ای نهی نهاه عنه لم یاته علی اراده المولی، بل کان العبد یتبع اراده نفسه و اتباع هواه، و لا یطیق المولی ان یرده الی اتباع امره و نهیه و الوقوف علی ارادته، ففوض اختیار امره و نهیه الیه، و رضی منه بکل ما فعله علی اراده العبد، لا علی اراده المالک، و بعثه فی بعض حوائجه و سمی له الحاجه، فخالف علی مولاه و قصد لاراده نفسه و اتبع هواه، فلما رجع الی مولاه نظر الی ما اتاه به، فاذا هو خلاف ما امره به، فقال له: لم اتیتنی بخلاف ما امرتک؟ فقال العبد: اتکلت علی تفویضک الامر الی، فاتبعت هوای و ارادتی لان المفوض الیه غیر محظور علیه. فاستحال التفویض، او لیس یجب علی هذا السبب اما ان یکون المالک للعبد قادرا یامر عبده باتباع امره و نهیه علی ارادته لا علی اراده العبد، و یملکه من الطاقه بقدر ما یامره به و ینهاه عنه، فاذا امره بامر و نهاه عن نهی عرفه الثواب و العقاب علیهما، و حذره و رغبه بصفه ثوابه و عقابه، لیعرف العبد قدره مولاه بما ملکه من الطاقه لامره و نهیه و ترغیبه و ترهیبه، فیکون عدله و انصافه شاملا له و حجته واضحه علیه للاعذار و الانذار. فاذا اتبع العبد امر مولاه جازاه، و اذا لم یزدجر عن نهیه عاقبه، او یکون عاجزا غیر قادر، ففوض امره الیه احسن ام اساء، اطاع ام عصی، عاجز عن عقوبته، و رده الی اتباع امره، و فی اثبات العجز نفی القدره و التاله و ابطال الامر و النهی و الثواب و العقاب و مخالفه الکتاب، اذ یقول: (و لا یرضی لعباده الکفر و ان تشکروا یرضه لکم) [۷۷] ، و قوله عزوجل: (اتقوا الله حق تقاته و لا تموتن الا و انتم مسلمون) [۷۸] ، و قوله: (و ما خلقت الجن و الانس الا لیعبدون – ما ارید منهم من رزق و ما ارید ان یطعمون) [۷۹] ، و قوله: (اعبدوا الله و لا تشرکوا به شیئا) [۸۰] ، و قوله: (اطیعوا الله و رسوله و لا تولوا عنه و انتم تسمعون) [۸۱] . فمن زعم ان الله تعالی فوض امره و نهیه الی عباده فقد اثبت علیه العجز و اوجب علیه قبول کل ما عملوا من خیر و شر، و ابطل امر الله و نهیه و وعده و وعیده لعله ما زعم ان الله فوضها الیه، لان المفوض الیه یعمل بمشیئته، فان شاء الکفر او الایمان کان غیر مردود علیه و لا محظور، فمن دان بالتفویض علی هذا المعنی، فقد ابطل جمیع ما ذکرنا من وعده و وعیده و امره و نهیه، و هو من اهل هذه الآیه: (افتومنون ببعض الکتاب و تکفرون ببعض فما جزاء من یفعل ذلک منکم الا خزی الحیاه الدنیا و یوم القیامه یردون الی اشد العذاب و ما الله بغافل عما تعملون) [۸۲] تعالی الله عما یدین به اهل التفویض علوا کبیرا.

لکن نقول: ان الله جل و عز خلق الخلق بقدرته، و ملکهم استطاعه تعبدهم بها، فامرهم و نهاهم بما اراد، فقبل منهم اتباع امره، و رضی بذلک لهم و نهاهم عن معصیته، و ذم من عصاه، و عاقبه علیها، و لله الخیره فی الامر و النهی، یختار ما یرید و یامر به، و ینهی عما یکره، و یعاقب علیه بالاستطاعه التی ملکها عباده لاتباع امره، و اجتناب معاصیه لانه ظاهر العدل و النصفه و الحکمه البالغه، بالغ الحجه بالاعذار و الانذار، ...

و هذا القول بین القولین لیس بجبر و لا تفویض. و بذلک اخبر امیرالمومنین صلی الله علیه و آله عبایه بن ربعی الاسدی حین ساله عن الاستطاعه التی بها یقوم و یقعد و یفعل، فقال له امیرالمومنین علیه السلام: سالت عن الاستطاعه تملکها من دون الله، او مع الله، فسکت عبایه، فقال له امیرالمومنین علیه السلام: قل یا عبایه! قال: و ما اقول؟ قال علیه السلام: ان قلت: انک تملکها مع الله قتلتک، و ان قلت: تملکها دون الله قتلتک، قال عبایه: فما اقول یا امیرالمومنین؟! قال علیه السلام: تقول: انک تملکها بالله الذی یملکها من دونک فان یملکها ایاک کان ذلک من عطائه و ان یسلبکها کان ذلک من بلائه، هو المالک لما ملکک، و القادر علی ما علیه اقدرک، اما سمعت الناس یسالون الحول و القوه حین یقولون: لا حول و لا قوه الا بالله. قال عبایه: و ما تاویلها یا امیرالمومنین؟! قال علیه السلام: لا حول عن معاصی الله الا بعصمه الله، و لا قوه لنا علی طاعه الله الا بعون الله. قال: فوثب عبایه، فقبل یدیه و رجلیه. و روی عن امیرالمومنین علیه السلام حین اتاه نجده یساله عن معرفه الله، قال: یا امیرالمومنین! بماذا عرفت ربک؟ قال علیه السلام: بالتمییز الذی خولنی و العقل الذی دلنی. قال: افمجبول انت علیه؟ قال: لو کنت مجبولا ما کنت محمودا علی احسان، و لا مذموما علی اساءه، و کان المحسن اولی باللائمه من المسی ء، فعلمت ان الله قائم باق و ما دونه حدث حائل زائل، و لیس القدیم الباقی کالحدث الزائل. قال نجده: اجدک اصبحت حکیما یا امیرالمومنین! قال: اصبحت مخیرا، فان اتیت السیئه بمکان الحسنه فانا المعاقب علیها. و روی عن امیرالمومنین علیه السلام انه قال لرجل ساله بعد انصرافه من الشام، فقال: یا امیرالمومنین! اخبرنا عن خروجنا الی الشام بقضاء و قدر؟ قال علیه السلام: نعم، یا شیخ! ما علوتم تلعه، و لا هبطتم وادیا الا بقضاء و قدر من الله. فقال الشیخ: عندالله احتسب عنائی یا امیرالمومنین! فقال علیه السلام: مه یا شیخ! فان الله قد عظم اجرکم فی مسیرکم و انتم سائرون، و فی مقامکم و انتم مقیمون، و فی انصرافکم و انتم منصرفون، و لم تکونوا فی شی ء من امورکم مکرهین و لا الیه مضطرین، لعلک ظننت انه قضاء حتم و قدر لازم، لو کان ذلک کذلک لبطل الثواب و العقاب، و لسقط الوعد و الوعید، و لما الزمت الاشیاء اهلها علی الحقائق، ذلک مقاله عبده الاوثان و اولیاء الشیطان. ان الله جل و عز امر تخییرا و نهی تحذیرا، و لم یطع مکرها، و لم یعص مغلوبا، و لم یخلق السماوات و الارض و ما بینهما باطلا ذلک ظن الذین کفروا فویل للذین کفروا من النار، فقام الشیخ فقبل راس امیرالمومنین علیه السلام و ....

ولسنا ندین بجبر و لا تفویض، لکنا نقول: بمنزله بین المنزلتین، و هو الامتحان و الاختبار بالاستطاعه التی ملکنا الله، و تعبدنا بها علی ما شهد به الکتاب، و دان به الائمه الابرار من آل الرسول صلوات الله علیهم.

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  Ayatullāh Murťadhā Muťahharī has a book that deals with these kinds of topics, MAN AND HIS DESTINY, I urge anybody who is interested in this subject free will must read this amazing book. 

www.al-islam.org/man-and-his-destiny-ayatullah-murtadha-mutahhari

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4 hours ago, Guerrilla said:

Also, even though I am asserting that belief in free-will makes one an Atheist, 

Do you deny this?

*****

بِسْمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحْمَٰنِ الرَّحِيمِ {1}

[Pickthal 1:1] In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.

الْحَمْدُ لِلَّهِ رَبِّ الْعَالَمِينَ {2}

[Pickthal 1:2] Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds,

الرَّحْمَٰنِ الرَّحِيمِ {3}

[Pickthal 1:3] The Beneficent, the Merciful.

مَالِكِ يَوْمِ الدِّينِ {4}

[Pickthal 1:4] Master of the Day of Judgment,

إِيَّاكَ نَعْبُدُ وَإِيَّاكَ نَسْتَعِينُ {5}

[Pickthal 1:5] Thee (alone) we worship; Thee (alone) we ask for help.

اهْدِنَا الصِّرَاطَ الْمُسْتَقِيمَ {6}

[Pickthal 1:6] Show us the straight path,

صِرَاطَ الَّذِينَ أَنْعَمْتَ عَلَيْهِمْ غَيْرِ الْمَغْضُوبِ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا الضَّالِّينَ {7}

[Pickthal 1:7] The path of those whom Thou hast favoured; Not the (path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray.

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38 minutes ago, S.M.H.A. said:

[Pickthal 1:7] The path of those whom Thou hast favoured; Not the (path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray.

@Guerrilla we ask Allah to guide us to the straight path. If we can not change the path we take, why bother asking? It's as simple as that. It seems a lot of other brothers/sisters have already commented, so I guess it makes more sense to expand off those points first.

18 hours ago, hasanhh said:

Off hand, and we also had this said in high school, the problem with predestination is that provocative: "lf l am already predestined then why should l bother to behave?" is asked.

This applies to my above statement. For example, if I commit a sin, why should I repent. It was written that Mansur Bakhtiari would commit that sin, what did I do wrong? I had no choice, therefore the sins I commit, why should I repent?

17 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

In Shia theology we believe in free will and also predestination. 

So we take the middle path.

 

17 hours ago, hasanhh said:

I think some people are predestined. Such as those 'community troublemakers'  revealed in Qur'an.

 

17 hours ago, S.M.H.A. said:

The quote from this website on what @S.M.H.A. posted also makes sense. If you have no jurisdiction in what happens, it's unjust for you to be punished for what you do.

And  @hasanhh I also agree with. Allah can predestine someone, as certain people (like Shaitan) are cursed (lanat) in the quran, and other verses. But that is based on their extreme disobediences to Allah. An innocent person who has not committed considerable wrongs can not be predestined to hellfire.

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14 hours ago, Quisant said:

 

A 'Creator God' that is not fully aware of the future consequences of his creative act is not a God, he is an irresponsible, capricious entity.

Therefore, the Principle of Sufficient Reason is a fundamental Pillar in Shia Theology.
(قانون العلية or قانون السببية and it's: مفهوم اللزوم العقلي الذي هو مبدأ بديهي أولي وهو ما أطلقنا عليه بالسببية العقلية )

If everything that exists has a ‘reason’ for its existence and the source of that reason is ‘random chance’ then you do have some free will.
But if the source of that ‘reason’ is God then we have no free will.

There is no getting away from that.

wslm.

*

You really must've put a lot of thought into your post. Nice job.

 

 

 

Edited by Ibn Al-Ja'abi
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7 hours ago, Guerrilla said:

Care to explain this?  They are pretty much opposites

They don't contradict at all.

This basically opposes the school of thought which believes in extreme free will. Extreme free will implies that you are completely independent of god and literally everything is in your disposal. This will mean you are setting up equals to God.

The middle path is not taking any of the extremes. Our free will is not beyond the realm of God. We have the free will to make choices but that is because God has given this to us. We have to make use of this favour of God. God has given us the power and strength to perform actions (which is up to us) but at the same time we heavily depend on him. If we become sick or paralyzed then we may not be able to perform certain actions that we were able to do before. 

When I say that we believe in predestination, by no way I mean that we are controlled entirely by an external force. God has just supplied us with the tools to decide our own fate. Sinners who are arrogant and just follow their carnal desires use this theory to support their disobedience towards Allah. Everyone has this light within themselves to bring change within themselves. That is why you see the verse in the Quran that Allah will guide those whom he wills. If anyone is willing to stay away from his low desires, then Allah surely guides that person.

Edited by ali_fatheroforphans
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16 hours ago, mesbah said:

^^^An excerpt from the epistle of Imam Hadi Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã on predestination and free will.

While not exactly what I was looking for, thank you.  It is very interesting and gives a good perspective on the Twelver Shia side of things.  What book/source is this from?

14 hours ago, S.M.H.A. said:

Do you deny this?

No.

13 hours ago, Mansur Bakhtiari said:

@Guerrilla we ask Allah to guide us to the straight path. If we can not change the path we take, why bother asking? It's as simple as that. It seems a lot of other brothers/sisters have already commented, so I guess it makes more sense to expand off those points first.

We bother asking because of two reasons-

1.) We have the illusion of free-will (every decision you make, it feels as if you are making it)

2.) We are destined to ask

This applies to my above statement. For example, if I commit a sin, why should I repent. It was written that Mansur Bakhtiari would commit that sin, what did I do wrong? I had no choice, therefore the sins I commit, why should I repent?

Predestination does not only apply to the sins one may commit, but to all actions taken.  Your repentance is also predestined and you cannot change it (in my view).  If you are asking for why any of these actions happen at all, only Allah knows.  It is my belief that an all-knowing God necessitates all actions being pre-destined because if someone can occur that God does not already know about, then he is not all-knowing, thus he is not God.  I do not have any sort of pretension of knowing why things happen the way they do.

The quote from this website on what @S.M.H.A. posted also makes sense. If you have no jurisdiction in what happens, it's unjust for you to be punished for what you do.

Even if we accept free-will, the same problem applies.  Somebody is raised in the Western world to have an extremely hostile attitude towards Muslims.  This person, raised from childhood to commit all sorts of evil acts, has the (for the sake of argument) free-will to do whatever he wants, but how many people radically change from what they are raised?  Is it really that person's fault that they were raised the way that they were?  If yes, how?  If no, then it's the same issue, how can they be punished for what they do when they didn't know any better.  This isn't a problem only for predestination, but a problem in general.

 

11 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

They don't contradict at all.

This basically opposes the school of thought which believes in extreme free will. Extreme free will implies that you are completely independent of god and literally everything is in your disposal. This will mean you are setting up equals to God.

I do not see how believing in extreme free-will means you are setting up equals with God.  I personally reject free-will, but it doesn't seem to involve acknowledging partners to God.

When I say that we believe in predestination, by no way I mean that we are controlled entirely by an external force. God has just supplied us with the tools to decide our own fate. Sinners who are arrogant and just follow their carnal desires use this theory to support their disobedience towards Allah. Everyone has this light within themselves to bring change within themselves. That is why you see the verse in the Quran that Allah will guide those whom he wills. If anyone is willing to stay away from his low desires, then Allah surely guides that person.

I did not mean to imply that we are controlled entirely by an external force either.  All I meant is that the future is set-in-stone so to speak.  Allah knows what is going to happen, thus it will happen and there is no way to change it.  I didn't mean it to sound like there is some sort of puppet master and we are just puppets in a big show.  As for sinners using this theory to justify their disobedience, then that is their problem, and they clearly have bigger problems than understanding free-will vs predestination.

 

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1 hour ago, Guerrilla said:

but how many people radically change from what they are raised?  Is it really that person's fault that they were raised the way that they were?  If yes, how?  If no, then it's the same issue, how can they be punished for what they do when they didn't know any better.

Interesting.... because I know many Muslims that never change and it is sad to see them stay in the path of destruction.

However, what do you say about those Muslims who were raised up in a bad environment but still managed to practice their faith? shouldn't they be rewarded for their efforts and struggles? 

 

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