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SajjadKhil

Regarding Philosophy

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2 hours ago, SajjadKhil said:

Salam Alaylum, I'm really interested in the study of philosophy, but I have no mentor  do you guys think its possible to learn it by myself ?

Start Here: Sura 26:225 and Sura 27:4  Qur'an is the best mentor. Allah-s.w.t. is your only Wali.

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1 hour ago, hasanhh said:

Start Here: Sura 26:225 and Sura 27:4  Qur'an is the best mentor. Allah-s.w.t. is your only Wali.

What do mentor has to do. 

Just one has to buybooks and read .

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3 hours ago, SajjadKhil said:

Salam Alaylum, I'm really interested in the study of philosophy, but I have no mentor  do you guys think its possible to learn it by myself ?

What do mentor has to do .just buy a philosophy book and read.

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Well there are some y Shi'a scholars who oppose the study of philosophy some of them say that it sometimes collides with the Islamic doctrine, a teacher could perhaps help if you have any questions or inability to coordinate between what is said in philosophy and Islamic doctrine. A while back I read a basic philosophy book and I had a question that I still couldnt get the answer to , I had to stop reading the book because I felt like my doctrine was threatened. I figured if I had some teacher he could resolve that issue for me . Thanks

Edited by starlight

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You shouldn't just stop reading philosophy because your doctrine is being threatened...your doctrine is threatened on a daily basis the point is to have faith and I encourage anyone to study philosophy in depth even the contradictions with Islam because to defend your position as a Muslim world other fellow philosophers you have to have a thorough knowledge of everything being said in philosophy 

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:bismillah:

On 2017-07-15 at 3:49 AM, SajjadKhil said:

Salam Alaylum, I'm really interested in the study of philosophy, but I have no mentor  do you guys think its possible to learn it by myself ?

Alaikom as Salam wa Rahmatullah

It is good that you think on studying it with someone else to save time and support you. But I have a question what are you after in studying philosophy and have you studied theology books, or even one book that may have some philosophical taste and notions in it?

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4 hours ago, Ali.Isa said:

:bismillah:

Alaikom as Salam wa Rahmatullah

It is good that you think on studying it with someone else to save time and support you. But I have a question what are you after in studying philosophy and have you studied theology books, or even one book that may have some philosophical taste and notions in it?

I like to have knowledge about levels of existence and and existence in general, I also like to know about God from a philosophical perspective as well. I have read several theological books for Sayed Kamal Al haydari and some other scholars. In my opinion even theological books which are maybe classified as being non philosophical may have philosophical notions in them.

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:bismillah:

Thank you, nice reply, great you have studied some theological books. Wondering something, let us say you study philosophy, I study philosophy, what do we expect the end goal to be, where are we going to arrive! I mean if you do a journey you recognize the destination and not alien to it, it is because of the destination you journey and because of where you are and know you can take the weight of the journey on your shoulders and be able to get through it. What difference has it made for your mind and self before you study those theological books and after you finish them, as days passed? Of course some may say as days pass our minds advance and we get more basirah and awareness and ghaflat weakens and excuse themselves from reading and pursuing knowledge based on their capability God has given them. WHILST IT IS THE CONTRARY IF THEY DO NOT STUDY.

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On 7/15/2017 at 9:19 AM, SajjadKhil said:

Salam Alaylum, I'm really interested in the study of philosophy, but I have no mentor  do you guys think its possible to learn it by myself ?

Do you have an example of a philosophy in mind? I have one, it is like this:

_An American man declares to a crowd, "don't ever trust any American man, they are all liars"_

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8 hours ago, SajjadKhil said:

I like to have knowledge about levels of existence and and existence in general, I also like to know about God from a philosophical perspective as well. I have read several theological books for Sayed Kamal Al haydari and some other scholars. In my opinion even theological books which are maybe classified as being non philosophical may have philosophical notions in them.

Most of the philosophies out there should be called misosophies.      

   

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If you want to study it as an exercise of the brain and to understand how the great minds thought and what they delved into then I would say yes study it.

First take a reading list/short course on classical Muslim Logic, Ancient Greek Philosophy, Muslim Philosophy and contemporary Philosophy.

Then read Ibn Taymiyyah against the greek logicians :)

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On ‎7‎/‎14‎/‎2017 at 7:19 PM, SajjadKhil said:

Salam Alaylum, I'm really interested in the study of philosophy, but I have no mentor  do you guys think its possible to learn it by myself ?

Read some books by Muhammad Baqir Al Sadr and Kamal Al Haydari

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5 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

Just as you cannot use your eyes to see God, so also you cannot use your thoughts or ideas to grasp or comprehend the Unseen.  

The only way to access the Unseen is to pray with your heart and leave thoughts alone.  

I believe there is an aspect of God that you can know by thoughts, and another aspect that can only be understood by the heart, also I think knowing about philosophy helps if you have a mystical experience so you can interpret it correctly, as there are some Sufis who reject thinking and focus on mystical experiences only eventually embraced very erroneous beliefs like everything is God (Hilol wa Itihad ) or that there is no creation and every thing is illusion. So philosophy is very important.

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And the idea that philosophy helps with interpreting mystical experiences correctly isnt mine but some Shia wise men concluded that and I agree with them.

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4 hours ago, SajjadKhil said:

And the idea that philosophy helps with interpreting mystical experiences correctly isnt mine but some Shia wise men concluded that and I agree with them.

This is actually not exactly true.  It would be true if you didn't think it would conflict with what I am saying but the fact that you think it conflicts with what I am saying makes your statement untrue).  Those Shia Urafa (that you are referring to) certainly have said what you mentioned, but you are reaching a wrong implication from what they are saying (if this makes any sense).  The heart is the center of our being.  If the heart is sound and wholesome then all other faculties (including our reasoning and our imaginal faculty) will be in order.  

 

May God help us and guide us all.     

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Also I think this may be relevant as well (something i just wrote in another post):

 

Salamun Alaykum,

I am speaking from the point of view of spiritual psychology where we have two modes of knowing.  One is at the level of the mind (I specifically mean by this, our thinking apparatus), and the other mode of knowing is at the level of our heart.  Truth can never be known (in any direct sense) at the level of mind.  This is not to say we should not use our mind (for otherwise we would not at all be able to articulate our speech and communicate ideas or thoughts, unless of course, we could rely simply on reading each other's hearts), but rather this is to say we always need to be aware of the limitations of our mind and in fact, one can even say that we need to always be wary and on guard of not succumbing to a complacency that the mind proffers to our nafs (ego).  When our riwayat say that that one should not contemplate on the Essence of God it is basically saying that we shouldn't have the Absolute as a thought or an idea because then that turns into something relative.  But Essence of God is accessible through our hearts for God Himself says "Neither the Heavens nor the earth can encompass Me, but the heart of my faithful servant does!".  This is why it is a common practice among mystics/ gnostics of all religions (and I am not claiming to be one, but I do make a claim to be one who would like to at least consider himself a follower of one of the greatest of all mystics, Ali Karam Allahu Wajhahu) to speak apophatically (through negatives, or via negativa) when referring to Non-duality (Sunyata) or Tawhid.  This is why Imam Ali (as) says something which would not make much sense in our ordinary conventional ways of speaking (for example):  "The perfection of His purity is to deny Him attributes,".  This statement is meant to speak directly to our hearts.  The Imam is not trying to evoke thoughts and ideas but rather the Imam is speaking directly to our hearts (if only they are alive and receptive). 

So this is why I wouldn't call myself a Muslim on this forum.  I prefer to align myself more with a Christian, a Buddhist or even a Hindu for that matter.  I believe they are more worthy f the name Shia of Ali than us who call ourselves Shia but who are not really receptive to the teachings of the Imams.   

 “But if you wish to know how these things [the ascent to God] come about, ask grace not instruction, desire not understanding, the groaning of prayer not diligent reading, the Spouse not the teacher, God not man, darkness not clarity, not light but the fire that totally inflames and carries us into God. . . .”
-- St. Bonaventure

"if you comprehend, it is not God. If you are able to comprehend, it is because you mistook something else for God. If you almost comprehend, it is again because you allowed your own thoughts to deceive you.” 
-- St. Augustine of Hippo

 

 

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Shayk Al Ashraq when classifying types of wise men, he said something like there is a type of a wise man who is deeply engaged in divinity but is not engaged in research ( I guess by this he means mental research ) so  according to him this type of wise men although they are engaged divinity (which is I suppose due to purifying the self) it didnt grant them knowledge in logical and mental thinking. So you need to study it separately along side purifying the self, because sometimes in a mystical experience Satan shows up as the good guy, tells you something and you think its an angel or something you embrace the idea and believe in it ( unless you see if it matches the philosophical rules or Hadith or Quran ) and consequently you may lose the way.

36 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

Also I think this may be relevant as well (something i just wrote in another post):

 

Salamun Alaykum,

I am speaking from the point of view of spiritual psychology where we have two modes of knowing.  One is at the level of the mind (I specifically mean by this, our thinking apparatus), and the other mode of knowing is at the level of our heart.  Truth can never be known (in any direct sense) at the level of mind.  This is not to say we should not use our mind (for otherwise we would not at all be able to articulate our speech and communicate ideas or thoughts, unless of course, we could rely simply on reading each other's hearts), but rather this is to say we always need to be aware of the limitations of our mind and in fact, one can even say that we need to always be wary and on guard of not succumbing to a complacency that the mind proffers to our nafs (ego).  When our riwayat say that that one should not contemplate on the Essence of God it is basically saying that we shouldn't have the Absolute as a thought or an idea because then that turns into something relative.  But Essence of God is accessible through our hearts for God Himself says "Neither the Heavens nor the earth can encompass Me, but the heart of my faithful servant does!".  This is why it is a common practice among mystics/ gnostics of all religions (and I am not claiming to be one, but I do make a claim to be one who would like to at least consider himself a follower of one of the greatest of all mystics, Ali Karam Allahu Wajhahu) to speak apophatically (through negatives, or via negativa) when referring to Non-duality (Sunyata) or Tawhid.  This is why Imam Ali (as) says something which would not make much sense in our ordinary conventional ways of speaking (for example):  "The perfection of His purity is to deny Him attributes,".  This statement is meant to speak directly to our hearts.  The Imam is not trying to evoke thoughts and ideas but rather the Imam is speaking directly to our hearts (if only they are alive and receptive). 

So this is why I wouldn't call myself a Muslim on this forum.  I prefer to align myself more with a Christian, a Buddhist or even a Hindu for that matter.  I believe they are more worthy f the name Shia of Ali than us who call ourselves Shia but who are not really receptive to the teachings of the Imams.   

 “But if you wish to know how these things [the ascent to God] come about, ask grace not instruction, desire not understanding, the groaning of prayer not diligent reading, the Spouse not the teacher, God not man, darkness not clarity, not light but the fire that totally inflames and carries us into God. . . .”
-- St. Bonaventure

"if you comprehend, it is not God. If you are able to comprehend, it is because you mistook something else for God. If you almost comprehend, it is again because you allowed your own thoughts to deceive you.” 
-- St. Augustine of Hippo

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, SajjadKhil said:

Shayk Al Ashraq when classifying types of wise men, he said something like there is a type of a wise man who is deeply engaged in divinity but is not engaged in research ( I guess by this he means mental research ) so  according to him this type of wise men although they are engaged divinity (which is I suppose due to purifying the self) it didnt grant them knowledge in logical and mental thinking. So you need to study it separately along side purifying the self, because sometimes in a mystical experience Satan shows up as the good guy, tells you something and you think its an angel or something you embrace the idea and believe in it ( unless you see if it matches the philosophical rules or Hadith or Quran ) and consequently you may lose the way.

 

I'm sorry the last reply I made the wrong quotation, anyways I agree with you about this aspect of God that is only knowable through the heart but yet there is a level of knowledge that can be obtained via the mind, regardless how shallow or deep its but its yet obtainable, I think if no aspect of God can be known through the mind then this would  be against the wisdom for not all people have pure hearts to obtain that knowledge,actually you can say the majority rely only on the mind.

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12 minutes ago, SajjadKhil said:

Boy I'm really confused today Quoted myself lol

It's alright.  I get what you are referring to.   

There are two kinds of people.  Those who go after experience or states (ahwal).  And then there are those who are fascinated by lofty concepts and ideas (the philosophers).  

The sound heart will result in a proper balance of the two.  But everyone has to start somewhere.

the heart is not really about experiences (for your information).  It is beyond experience(s) and it is beyond thought. 

Edited by eThErEaL

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3 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

It's alright.  I get what you are referring to.   

There are two kinds of people.  Those who go after experience or states (ahwal).  And then there are those who are fascinated by lofty concepts and ideas (the philosophers).  

The sound heart will result in a proper balance of the two.  But everyone has to start somewhere.

the heart is not really about experiences (for your information).  It is beyond experience(s) and it is beyond thought. 

Actually I think I read somewhere that there is another faculty above the heart, which is the soul and thats where complete annihilation happens.

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57 minutes ago, SajjadKhil said:

Actually I think I read somewhere that there is another faculty above the heart, which is the soul and thats where complete annihilation happens.

By soul I think you mean the ruh or what I prefer to translate as spirit.  "when they ask you about it, say it is but a command from my Lord, and you have been given but very little knowledge."

Or, in the verse: "When i breathed into him of MY spirit..fall ye prostrate..."

the heart is above everything because it is not really a faculty (it is your essence).  It "contains" God as hadith say.     

By the way.... what is the goal?  complete annihilation?  There is no such thing...  or rather this idea is grossly misunderstood.  You don't have to reach annihilation only because you already are annihilated (you are nothing).  You don't have to become nothing when the fact is that only God is!  

Edited by eThErEaL

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On 7/14/2017 at 4:19 PM, SajjadKhil said:

Salam Alaylum, I'm really interested in the study of philosophy, but I have no mentor  do you guys think its possible to learn it by myself ?

No. 

There's a common idea that you can learn philosophy just by reading philosophy books. This is a mistake. If this was the case, you could've learned anything else without going to school, too. Just pick up a sociology book or a Chemistry book and learn it without a teacher/mentor. 

Philosophy is learned via debates and discussions, and that's exactly what a philosophy class provides, to a certain degree. In a good philosophy class, with a good instructor, your beliefs are challenged, and you have to learn to analyze and defend your beliefs without resorting to faith. 

If you rely on faith or any unjustified premise, you will be called out for it and challenged. 

Reading books will not provide you with this invaluable class dynamics. The role of a good philosophy mentor/instructor is to permit different, inconsistent, contradictory ideas to flow freely, so students could learn to analyze and separate good arguments from bad arguments. 

When you read a book, you mostly, only get the author's own vision and argument, with very little legitimate challenge, and if you read anthologies you won't get much depth and context for each point of view. 

 

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6 hours ago, SajjadKhil said:

Boy I'm really confused today Quoted myself lol

I would like to augment my answer by saying not only Yes, but also No.  

Yes, at the beginning.  You can learn a lot by reading books (provided you know what to read).  You will know what to read because God will guide you to read certain books.  But my answer is also No because after you acquire enough of the right knowledge you will be impelled to seek a teacher.  Because hopefully from the knowledge you acquired you will have learned that you can only take the next step by learning at the feet of someone who can transmit the light of his heart into yours.  This is authentic Philosophy and this is how authentic philosophy is learned.  Authentic Philosophy is practicing death (it is truly nothing but this...you probably already know that Socrates uttered those words).  "Philosophy" as commonly understood nowadays (as something mental kind of exercise or an ability to argue and debate) is very far from authentic philosophy.  

Edited by eThErEaL

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2 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

No. 

There's a common idea that you can learn philosophy just by reading philosophy books. This is a mistake. If this was the case, you could've learned anything else without going to school, too. Just pick up a sociology book or a Chemistry book and learn it without a teacher/mentor. 

Philosophy is learned via debates and discussions, and that's exactly what a philosophy class provides, to a certain degree. In a good philosophy class, with a good instructor, your beliefs are challenged, and you have to learn to analyze and defend your beliefs without resorting to faith. 

If you rely on faith or any unjustified premise, you will be called out for it and challenged. 

Reading books will not provide you with this invaluable class dynamics. The role of a good philosophy mentor/instructor is to permit different, inconsistent, contradictory ideas to flow freely, so students could learn to analyze and separate good arguments from bad arguments. 

When you read a book, you mostly, only get the author's own vision and argument, with very little legitimate challenge, and if you read anthologies you won't get much depth and context for each point of view. 

 

Thanks man thats what I thought too.

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4 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

By soul I think you mean the ruh or what I prefer to translate as spirit.  "when they ask you about it, say it is but a command from my Lord, and you have been given but very little knowledge."

Or, in the verse: "When i breathed into him of MY spirit..fall ye prostrate..."

the heart is above everything because it is not really a faculty (it is your essence).  It "contains" God as hadith say.     

By the way.... what is the goal?  complete annihilation?  There is no such thing...  or rather this idea is grossly misunderstood.  You don't have to reach annihilation only because you already are annihilated (you are nothing).  You don't have to become nothing when the fact is that only God is!  

When I say annihilation I dont mean to cease to exist, I mean by it not noticing myself and my attributes, also there is a difference between being told that you are nothing and experiencing it personally.

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2 hours ago, SajjadKhil said:

When I say annihilation I dont mean to cease to exist, I mean by it not noticing myself and my attributes, also there is a difference between being told that you are nothing and experiencing it personally.

So...you exist but you simply don't notice yourself nor your attributes?

The teaching says that it is not an experience.  It isn't some kind of experience that comes to you.  An experience comes and it may go.  But anything that comes or anything that goes is not real.  The height of realization of God, according to the teaching, isn't something that comes and goes because it is eternally here and now, it is ever present.  You are IT.  Or as the teaching says "Thou art THAT".

:)

Edited by eThErEaL

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Imam Khamenei: Eliminating philosophy from seminary schools leads to superficiality

April 25, 2018 - 4:22 PM News Code : 890845 Source : Khamenei.irLink:  Imam Khamenei: Eliminating philosophy from seminary schools leads to superficiality  

Organizers of the National Conference of the Philosopher of Tehran-- commemorating late Aqa Ali Modarres Zonoozi-- met with Ayatollah Khamenei on April 23, 2018. 

(AhlulBayt News Agency) - Organizers of the National Conference of the Philosopher of Tehran-- commemorating late Aqa Ali Modarres Zonoozi-- met with Ayatollah Khamenei on April 23, 2018. 

In this meeting, the Leader of the Islamic Revolution—Ayatollah Khamenei—expressed delight over the promotion of rational sciences in seminary schools after the Islamic Revolution of 1979 and described critical thinking and innovation as factors in promotion and elevation of this branch of sciences. His Eminence then asserted: one of the remarkable characteristics of late Aqa-Ali Zonoozi is his spirit of criticism and expressing new ideas within the realm of rational sciences. Such commemorations are not merely to honor an individual—but a celebration and promotion of a current of thought and contemplation....

http://en.abna24.com/news/iran/imam-khamenei-eliminating-philosophy-from-seminary-schools-leads-to-superficiality_890845.html

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