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A Deeper Look into the Thighing Fatwa

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4 minutes ago, Amira00 said:

I think I'll try send an email to Sistani or his management group or whatever and ask if this is actually real.

I actually think it's real but I want to be wrong. Or else..... :cry:

Edited by MohammadAli1993

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6 hours ago, MohammadAli1993 said:

Please someone who can read arabic translate this for me. 

مسألة 12 : لا يجوز وطء الزوجة قبل إكمال تسع سنين ، دواما كان النكاح أو منقطعا ، و أما سائر الاستمتاعات كاللمس بشهوة و الضم و التفخيذ فلا بأس بها حتى فى الرضيعة

Tahreer al-Waseelah, volume 2, page 343
 

@Amira00's translation is right, it's "Ruling # 12: It is not permission to have intercourse before (her) being 9 years old, be it in nikah (permanent marriage) or temporary marriage. And as for all other pleasures such as lustful touch, embracing, and thighing (ﺍﻟﺘﻔﺨﻴﺬ), there is no problem in it even with a suckling infant." 

 

On 7/16/2017 at 6:38 AM, Sumerian said:

مسألة 8 : لا يجوز وطء الزوجة قبل إكمال تسع سنين، دواماً كان النكاح أو منقطعاً، واما سائر الاستمتاعات كاللمس بشهوة والتقبيل والضم والتفخيذ فلا بأس بها،

http://www.sistani.org/arabic/book/16/858/

Issue 8: It is not allowed to have intercourse with the wife before her being 9 years old, be it permanent marriage or temporary marriage, and as from all other pleasures such as lustful touch, embracing and thighing, there is no problem in it.

Basically the same wording.

On 7/9/2017 at 4:30 AM, Al-Hussayni said:

 Hmm, Sheikh al-Amili has some good articles and books etc but I hear some scholars criticize him. So from what I understand reading the exposing Tawhidi article vs that of Sheikh al-Amili some scholars have allowed it because of no clear prohibition while others have disallowed it because it's a vile act.

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6 hours ago, MohammadAli1993 said:

If that is Halal then I'm seriously thinking those who are sitting in HIGH ranks and consider themselves as Ayatullah's are sick individuals. 

 

On 4/8/2018 at 11:59 AM, Amira00 said:

Is this actually halal?????

Guys, please don’t accuse them of anything , age of marriage is almost the same in all Abrahamic religions , here:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_views_on_marriage

ketannah (literally meaning "little [one]") was any girl between the age of 3 years and that of 12 years plus one day;[78] she was subject to her father's authority and he could arrange a marriage for her without her agreement.[78]

rather, twelve years old is merely the age at which a girl can herself decide to get married. before that, however, her father can have her married off, without her permission.

 

God did not put any limitation on the age other than age of menstruation:

Quran 65:4

And those who no longer expect menstruation among your women - if you doubt, then their period is three months, and [also for] those who have not menstruated. And for those who are pregnant, their term is until they give birth. And whoever fears Allah - He will make for him of his matter ease.

 

just in Christianity they don’t have these laws because of problem with not having of “injeel” (no untouched bible).

 

Edited by Arminmo

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2 hours ago, Arminmo said:

 

Guys, please don’t accuse them of anything , age of marriage is almost the same in all Abrahamic religions , here:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_views_on_marriage

ketannah (literally meaning "little [one]") was any girl between the age of 3 years and that of 12 years plus one day;[78] she was subject to her father's authority and he could arrange a marriage for her without her agreement.[78]

rather, twelve years old is merely the age at which a girl can herself decide to get married. before that, however, her father can have her married off, without her permission.

 

God did not put any limitation on the age other than age of menstruation:

Quran 65:4

And those who no longer expect menstruation among your women - if you doubt, then their period is three months, and [also for] those who have not menstruated. And for those who are pregnant, their term is until they give birth. And whoever fears Allah - He will make for him of his matter ease.

 

just in Christianity they don’t have these laws because of problem with not having of “injeel” (no untouched bible).

 

Sorry bro but are you really justifying Thighing????? Marriage with children ok but seeking pleasures from them? Really 

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22 minutes ago, MohammadAli1993 said:

Marriage with children ok but seeking pleasures from them?

You do marry someone just to go library everyday with her or pleasure also exist in it?!

Edited by Arminmo

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22 minutes ago, Arminmo said:
45 minutes ago, MohammadAli1993 said:

from them?

You do marry someone just to go library everyday with her or pleasure also exist in it?!

Edited 21 minutes ago by Arminmo

What is has contradiction with Rational thinking & Quran is prohibited in shia islam so we can't rely on a weak hadith or bad understanding of a Fatwa because Maraji are fallible persons so sometimes they may be make mistake.

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4 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

What is has contradiction with Rational thinking & Quran is prohibited in shia islam so we can't rely on a weak hadith or bad understanding of a Fatwa because Maraji are fallible persons so sometimes they may be make mistake.

Sorry bro but how on earth can you bring up such a Fatwa to begin with. What is the basis for it. And please don't bring the excuse of 'Maraja aren't Infallible so they will do mistakes' nobody ever claimed their are Infallible plus this is beyond a mistake. Its PEDOPHILIA

is this what Islam has come to? We claim to be followers of a Pure Progeny and filth like this exists? 

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1 hour ago, MuslimahAK said:

How can you thigh someone when you can't marry them under the age of 9? 

You can marry them under the age of 9 but penetration is HARAM. not allowed. Thighing however is allowed. 

Absolutely VILE

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1 hour ago, Arminmo said:

Change your religion , get Christianity .

this exist in all Abrahamic religions.

We all know that marriage at young ages was a thing centuries ago, it still happens nowadays but it's a minority.

Also, there's a huge difference between child marriages and actually giving permission for thighing. Historically child marriages were permitted for political reasons etc, and the married couple would only consummate the marriage or have any sexual relations whatsoever when the girl and boy have both come of age.

And let's imagine thighing is permitted in other religions or sects (I haven't seen any evidence for it yet) we follow Islam because it's right, and because it gives us the answers we get from no other religion. I don't want to jump to conclusions about the marjas but I've researched about thighing and it's honestly made me sick. Like the above poster said, it is pedophelia. It is also considered rape because a newborn or any child who has still not yet matured knows nothing about consent or what sexual activity even is. What the real view is of marjas on this, I don't know, but I know that without needing to consult anyone of a higher rank of understanding than me, that thighing is disgusting and wrong. This has nothing to do with the marjas because I don't believe I've had sufficient evidence that they honestly deem it permissible.

Edited by Amira00

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2 hours ago, MohammadAli1993 said:

is this what Islam has come to? We claim to be followers of a Pure Progeny and filth like this exists? 

I'm as you against it but it is not an obligatory Fatwa it just explain a rule but we have choice to accept it or not it depends on aNY person view.

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Its funny, people who struggle to even do their wajibats, who rarely study any islam to begin with, agrees with 99 fatwas then they come across the 100th fatwa that they do not agree with and suddenly they questions everything.

Is it possible that your disagreement or resent of the fatwa is because of your lack of information regarding the question that gave that fatwa? 

 

What have you guys studied regarding the questions that was asked and the discussion that followed leading to the fatwa?

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3 hours ago, IbnSina said:

Its funny, people who struggle to even do their wajibats, who rarely study any islam to begin with, agrees with 99 fatwas then they come across the 100th fatwa that they do not agree with and suddenly they questions everything.

Is it possible that your disagreement or resent of the fatwa is because of your lack of information regarding the question that gave that fatwa? 

 

What have you guys studied regarding the questions that was asked and the discussion that followed leading to the fatwa?

Please share some light if you are knowledgeable enough. Why does this Fatwa exist and what are the circumstances in order to become a part time pedophile 

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4 hours ago, MohammadAli1993 said:

Please share some light if you are knowledgeable enough. Why does this Fatwa exist and what are the circumstances in order to become a part time pedophile 

I think it said for communities that they use to do arranged  marriage from a very young age as it a common practice between tribes specially in Iraq to prevent intercourse before 9 years old .

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On 4/13/2018 at 2:18 PM, MohammadAli1993 said:

Nobody seems to give a damn about this Fatwa. It's as if they pretend they never read it. 

Where are the sisters to speak out. You really think it's fine to do this? 

Until I joined ShiaChat I had never even heard of it. Of course thighing is reprehensible. The question was asked so many years ago and a fatwa was written down because, in the event that such an abominable thing became known to somebody, what would be the ruling, should that person be punished for such action? There is nothing mentioned about thighing in the early days of Islam to make it haram which makes me sure that this practice came into history from nonIslamic people. Shia scholars say that it is haram to consummate a marriage with a girl who has not become baligh (signs of physical maturity) and if the girl later in life realized that she had not given permission for the marriage because she was too young to agree to it, she can ask for a divorce. I don't know any Muslim father or grandfather that would marry his baby to a man. 

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1 hour ago, MohammadAli1993 said:

Nobody seems to give a damn about this Fatwa. It's as if they pretend they never read it. 

Where are the sisters to speak out. You really think it's fine to do this? 

Wow 

What can we possibly do?

This isn't a random social construct, an educated Marja has given this fatwa. Yes, a lot of people are incredibly disturbed by it, but as @IbnSinahas said, we should look at the context of the fatwa. There may be certain circumstances, I honestly don't think someone that educated in Islam would just give a fatwa that complex without proper reasoning. We need to trust that, and find evidence and explanations for that fatwa.

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8 hours ago, MohammadAli1993 said:

Please share some light if you are knowledgeable enough. Why does this Fatwa exist and what are the circumstances in order to become a part time pedophile 

I would not call myself knowledgeable enough but from what knowledge I have about the context, this was asked as a rhetorical question to a hypothetical situation in a discussion of fiqh and as such a rhetorical answer was given to a hypothetical situation with regards to fiqh.

Now to begin with, what parent would marry off their daughter thats, lets say 4 years old?

Would such a person, a 4 year old, be able to approve of the marriage? If not, then the marriage is not valid to begin with.

Furthermore, what kind of adult man would want to marry a 4 year old to begin with? One must question that mans mental health before anything ells.

Etc, etc.

Basically, to my knowledge, it was a rhetorical question to a hypothetical situation that will never happen because of the reality of reality. That does not mean that there would not be a islamic ruling about the matter if it was to ever happen even if it in reality wont.

Now to give some general advise about this or situations like this general when we find something that we really do not agree with at all.

We should remain our calm and study the matter further, some times it could be so that what the interpreter of a text understands it different from what the author meant. Furthermore if, like in this situation, Imam Khomeini(RA) wrote a fatwa that you do not agree with but you have read numerous other fatwas from him that you DO agree with and you have studied his personality and his biography and you have found him to be a noble and admirable person - then please reserve the right that you may have misjudged the circumstances of the situation that you find disturbing - rather than condemning a person as a whole even though he said 100 000 other things that you found reasonable.

It is like those atheists who would condemn the whole of the holy Quran and Islam as a religion based on one or two verses taken out of context and given a twisted understanding based on their preconceived notion of the religion and religions as a whole, disregarding the rest of the holy Quran that promotes racial equality, justice, mercy, helping the poor, feeding the needy, freeing the slaves, not wronging others, not back biting, giving charity, etc, etc.

Do understand what I mean and do you feel satisfied with this answer?

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1 hour ago, IbnSina said:

I would not call myself knowledgeable enough but from what knowledge I have about the context, this was asked as a rhetorical question to a hypothetical situation in a discussion of fiqh and as such a rhetorical answer was given to a hypothetical situation with regards to fiqh.

Now to begin with, what parent would marry off their daughter thats, lets say 4 years old?

Would such a person, a 4 year old, be able to approve of the marriage? If not, then the marriage is not valid to begin with.

Furthermore, what kind of adult man would want to marry a 4 year old to begin with? One must question that mans mental health before anything ells.

Etc, etc.

Basically, to my knowledge, it was a rhetorical question to a hypothetical situation that will never happen because of the reality of reality. That does not mean that there would not be a islamic ruling about the matter if it was to ever happen even if it in reality wont.

Now to give some general advise about this or situations like this general when we find something that we really do not agree with at all.

We should remain our calm and study the matter further, some times it could be so that what the interpreter of a text understands it different from what the author meant. Furthermore if, like in this situation, Imam Khomeini(RA) wrote a fatwa that you do not agree with but you have read numerous other fatwas from him that you DO agree with and you have studied his personality and his biography and you have found him to be a noble and admirable person - then please reserve the right that you may have misjudged the circumstances of the situation that you find disturbing - rather than condemning a person as a whole even though he said 100 000 other things that you found reasonable.

It is like those atheists who would condemn the whole of the holy Quran and Islam as a religion based on one or two verses taken out of context and given a twisted understanding based on their preconceived notion of the religion and religions as a whole, disregarding the rest of the holy Quran that promotes racial equality, justice, mercy, helping the poor, feeding the needy, freeing the slaves, not wronging others, not back biting, giving charity, etc, etc.

Do understand what I mean and do you feel satisfied with this answer?

I see what u mean brother. I am really not well these days. :(

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16 minutes ago, MohammadAli1993 said:

I see what u mean brother. I am really not well these days. :(

Its okay brother, we all go thru periods where we feel low some times but you already know its going to be fine again soon iA, it always does alhamdulillah.

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