Would you divorce him ? A new poll

[Abu Hadi]

Bismillah, 

Here is the scenario. There is a man who is a muslim and a mumin (i.e. he prays, fasts, gives zakat, hajj, is good with his family, good aklaq, etc). He's not perfect but the vast majority of the time he treats his wife and children good, i.e. supports them financially, does not abuse them, is generous with them, in general. At the same time, he wants more out of life so he meets a women who is a refugee from the war in Syria and has two small children. Her husband is dead and she is looking for someone to help her. So the man decides to get married to her and he tells his wife. She objects but he does the marriage over her objections. If you were a sister, what would you do in this situation, considering

1) You relationship with your husband before this time was not perfect, but good and even better than average for all the other women that you knew 

2) He supports you financially and although he is not a very rich man, is as generous as he could be within the limitations of his income

3) He has enough income to maintain two households (i.e. support a second wife)

I don't want to start WWIII, I just want to know roughly the percentages of what is likely to happen in this case. 

Please sisters only answer. 

[notme]

To be honest, I'd be most upset about him not resolving my objections before proceeding. I'm not a jealous type, and if his intentions are as stated I'd probably be able to accept it after some time, though I'd feel betrayed and it would take him a long time to regain my trust. 

[Laayla]

Bismehe Ta3ala,

Assalam Alikum 

Since he is a momin and Insh'Allah his wife is momina too, then why would he ask his momin wife and then reject what she said.  What was the point in asking, since he already had his mind set?

The time he spent getting to know the other woman he could be using it with his current wife and children.  They are people with feelings too.

What does it mean wants more in life?  Have two more children with his current wife then.

If he has the money, he could support them by sponsoring them.  But at the end of the day, it is most likely about sex, which maybe wife wasn't satisfying anymore and then why he wants more in life excuse.

I'm sorry I don't understand men's adventures sometimes. 

Finally, if he is in the States, that would be illegal and therefore not following the law of the land.  So three strikes on him, hurting his wife, hurting his children, broke the law.

M3 Salamah, FE AMIN Allah 

Edited June 30, 2017 by Laayla

[ireallywannaknow]

It's hard to say what I would really do until I'm in that situation. I imagine I would be extremely hurt. Things would never be the same between us. But I wouldn't want to divorce him. 

If I'm going to be totally honest, knowing myself, I would probably try my hardest to be his favorite wife. And deep down I would hope that he is miserable with her, deeply regret his decision, apologize profusely for his horrible mistake, and get rid of her, realizing that there is no woman that can parallel me. But I pray I would have a more Islamic reaction than that. 

[Abu Hadi]

7 hours ago, Laayla said:

Bismehe Ta3ala,

Assalam Alikum 

Since he is a momin and Insh'Allah his wife is momina too, then why would he ask his momin wife and then reject what she said.  What was the point in asking, since he already had his mind set?

The time he spent getting to know the other woman he could be using it with his current wife and children.  They are people with feelings too.

What does it mean wants more in life?  Have two more children with his current wife then.

If he has the money, he could support them by sponsoring them.  But at the end of the day, it is most likely about sex, which maybe wife wasn't satisfying anymore and then why he wants more in life excuse.

I'm sorry I don't understand men's adventures sometimes. 

Finally, if he is in the States, that would be illegal and therefore not following the law of the land.  So three strikes on him, hurting his wife, hurting his children, broke the law.

M3 Salamah, FE AMIN Allah 

My wife and I were watching a documentary about the Syrian war and there was a couple on the show and this scenario happened with them. From what I saw in the documentary, they seemed to be  both good, mumin/a. In the documentary, his first wife did divorce him because she said she couldn't take the fact that he was married to another women although he did treat her well, did support her, they had a good marriage before, etc. All three (both women and the man) were Syrian. 

My position was that although his first wife had the right to be upset and object, she shouldn't have divorced him because now the family is broken up, and this is a worse outcome. His first wife and her two children ended up coming to the US as refugees (before Trump put on the travel ban) and he stayed in Syria. Now the family is living in different countries, his first wife is a single mother and has to work two jobs, etc. 

My wife had an opinion similar to Laayla, and she thought this would be the majority opinion, if I asked women. We'll see. I don't think there is enough data yet to know. I would like to keep this poll open for more votes. BTW, brothers can reply on this thread, I just don't want them to vote in the poll, as this would invalidate the data. 

Edited June 30, 2017 by Abu Hadi

[The Green Knight]

Poor guy. How will he manage? I think he made a big mistake.

[Abu Hadi]

On 6/29/2017 at 10:06 PM, Laayla said:

Bismehe Ta3ala,

Assalam Alikum 

What does it mean wants more in life?  Have two more children with his current wife then.

If he has the money, he could support them by sponsoring them.  But at the end of the day, it is most likely about sex, which maybe wife wasn't satisfying anymore and then why he wants

M3 Salamah, FE AMIN Allah 

Alekum Salam, 

Wants more in life. I'm not sure what that means. My own personal commentary, maybe thinking that he was looking for something else that he didn't currently have in his life.  I think the husband also said that in the documentary but not sure ? I don't think he wasn't satisfied with his first wife in that, he never mentioned that. 

BTW, I have known men who did this. What goes thru their mind is not exactly what you think. ( I am not taking about teenage boys, but men who have actually lived in the real world for a while). Most of the time (at least for ones who are in a good marriage) is that if I love my first wife and I enjoy her and the relationship, then if I married another women, I would also enjoy her and the relationship so my life would be (twice, 3x, 4x) as good in terms of love and happiness. 

I realize this is kind of 'magical' thinking and it doesn't actually work out that way in the real world, most of the time (this is what the guy in the documentary found out, unfortunately). I am just telling you probably what is going thru his head and I don't think most women understand this. They assume it is only about sex, which is not true most of the time. 

[starlight]

1 hour ago, Darth Vader said:

Poor guy. How will he manage? I think he made a big mistake.

What was the mistake in your opinion?  Marrying the second woman or not moving to US with his wife? 

@Laayla Being a woman I understand what you are saying but if everyone thinks like this who will take care of the widows and orphans in war torn Muslim areas? Imam Ali (as) clearly says jealously in women is a sign of lack of faith. If I were in the first wife's place I would be very hurt, yes, but I would not ask for divorce that would be a detested reaction (divorce) in response to a perfectly halal jai'z action (nikkah). Not just this it would be totally selfish to deprive my children of growing up in a two parent home. Unless there is something extreme like abuse, husband earning haram rizq etc divorce is never a solution. 

[Pearl178]

9 hours ago, notme said:

To be honest, I'd be most upset about him not resolving my objections before proceeding. I'm not a jealous type, and if his intentions are as stated I'd probably be able to accept it after some time, though I'd feel betrayed and it would take him a long time to regain my trust. 

How is it betrayal if he puts you in the picture right from the start and obtains your thoughts on the whole thing before proceeding? Men in this side of the world usually end up marrying a second wife in complete secrecy and the first wife and children end up finding out from outside sources which also raises concern as to the injustice he's obviously committing by not spending his nights with the second one (unless he's a good liar and is able to come up with excuses as to his disappearance on some nights of the week). My siblings and I ended finding out about my fathers second permanent  marriage from our friends and so did my mother (from her friends). If he was honest from the beginning it would have saved us so much humiliation. 

Edited June 30, 2017 by Pearl178

[notme]

@Pearl178 in the scenario he presented, the husband had informed the first wife, she objected, then without addressing her objections he proceeded with the second marriage. Definitely this is better than keeping it secret from her, but he still should have talked with her to ease her fears and resolve her concerns. It's a major life change. He shouldn't have forced her into it before she was ready.

But, like I said, if it had been me I think I'd eventually get over it, after seeing that my life isn't shattered and my children are still well taken care of. 

[The Green Knight]

2 hours ago, starlight said:

@LaaylaWhat was the mistake in your opinion?  Marrying the second woman or not moving to US with his wife?

Re-Marrying / second marriage. Its a very good thing Islamically and especially for the refugee woman. However, we all know that bad things happen to good people. Tests. One does not simply do a good deed and walk away. Especially a marriage.

Edited June 30, 2017 by Darth Vader

[Laayla]

11 hours ago, starlight said:

What was the mistake in your opinion?  Marrying the second woman or not moving to US with his wife? 

@Laayla Being a woman I understand what you are saying but if everyone thinks like this who will take care of the widows and orphans in war torn Muslim areas? Imam Ali (as) clearly says jealously in women is a sign of lack of faith. If I were in the first wife's place I would be very hurt, yes, but I would not ask for divorce that would be a detested reaction (divorce) in response to a perfectly halal jai'z action (nikkah). Not just this it would be totally selfish to deprive my children of growing up in a two parent home. Unless there is something extreme like abuse, husband earning haram rizq etc divorce is never a solution. 

Bismehe Ta3ala,

Assalam Alikum dear sister Star

Let's say this particular woman has been in the marriage 20+, she was available for her husband whenever he desired her, three course meals everyday, came to a clean house and clean children.  What shortcomings does she have?  Out of nowhere, her husband says I want to marry again. She says, why?  He says I want to help a widowed mother with children.  

There are hundreds of thousands of single men who can't get married.  Do you know how mustahab it would be if this adventurous midlife crisis husband would help a man or two have a chance in marriage instead?  He can sponsor the family, if he doesn't want to help other men.

It's not enough that his momin wife gets hurt, but also the talk of people's conversations, her husband married someone else.  All unnecessary drama, but hey he likes this excitement and all attention and eyes on him.

I'm not against pologymous marriages, this is in Islam, who am I to go against what Allah said is hallal.  I have a problem with men who have to put their momin wife in misery when she has done more than her obligations and is an obedient, modest, and protects the best interest of her family.  Why is this all forgotten and not appreciated as soon as another woman comes into his life?  It's okay pain and suffering she can experience, yet let him enjoy and carry on.  

I would understand if the man wanted to marry again because wife didn't bare  him children.  If she was disobedient and denies him his right.  If she is rude, nasty, and has no akhlaq.  All understandable scenarios.  I get all that.  Just not the scenario Hajj Abo Hadi described.  

Sister Star and Sister @Pearl178 if you see something different or have a better understanding than I do please correct me or bring it to my attention.  God forbid I go against what He loves.  I am human and make mistakes, but what I say is not to intentionally sin.  So if anything I said falls into haram, please correct my point of view.

M3 Salamah, FE AMIN Allah 

BTW Everything I said is based out of momin wife loving her husband.  She loves him deeply.  Not that she doesn't care for him and he can go with 3-4 other women for all she cares.

Edited June 30, 2017 by Laayla

[Hassan-]

If it will hurt his wife's feelings, the man should respect her and not marry a second women. Yes it's halal for him, but not everything halal is good. The mentality today is different then before, most women today will never accept being a second wife and because of this mentality second marriages will almost never end well for the husband or the first wife.

[Abu Hadi]

Sister, 

You can view this as purely a man being adventurous and having a midlife crisis, but it is much more complex than that, IMO. You might disagree and I respect your opinion. 

First, I agree with your point 100% about how it is more appropriate for this lady to marry a single man who doesn't have even 1 wife. The problem is that, for the vast majority of brothers who are single, they are single for one and only one reason, and that is economic. Some of them can't afford even the basic expenses of having a family, and there are others who maybe could afford this but they cant afford the life their inlaws 'expect' for their daughter. So, being men, and the fact that they have this overblown sense of 'honor' (which is not really honor), they choose to remain single rather than face the harsh reality of unstable , unfair economic systems  in most places where the vast majority of muslims live along with extreme materialism and heightened expectations of the families. 

I am 99% sure that this lady (the one in the documentary) would prefer to marry a man closer to her age who is single. That is obviously what most women want (and it's logical and there's nothing wrong Islamically with that). But most likely she couldn't find someone like that, and being as she had kids whom she probably couldn't support, she chose probably her second or third choice which is to marry a man who is older than her and already married. 

And I don't blame his first wife for being upset and not being 'ok' with the situation. I'm not saying she was totally in the wrong for divorcing him and he was completely blameless. But at some point, the adults involved in this situation should come to their senses and start to think what is best for the children involved in this. My parents divorced when I was very young and for most of my childhood and teen years, I barely saw my father, and my mother worked alot (she was a single mother with three kids) so I barely saw her either. This was extremely traumatic for me and my siblings. I don't wish this kind of childhood on anyone, and I don't believe this situation is a legitimate reason to put the kids thru that, IMO. I realize others don't agree with me. 

[starlight]

1 hour ago, Laayla said:

There are hundreds of thousands of single men who can't get married.  Do you know how mustahab it would be if this adventurous midlife crisis husband would help a man or two have a chance in marriage instead?  He can sponsor the family, if he doesn't want to help other men.

Most of the single men are not interested in marrying a woman with kids. They rather have a virgin or a woman who comes without baggage. We had a poll on SC too where most single brothers said they would prefer not to marry a woman who has kids. 

 

1 hour ago, Laayla said:

Why is this all forgotten and not appreciated as soon as another woman comes into his life?

Why does one muslim women end up as a homeless widow with two little ones in Syria? and in another part of the world another momina equal to her in terms of looks and taqwa is living a safe and comfortable life with her husband? and a third one married a man who turns out to be abusive? and a fourth one is not able to get married at all despite possessing all the qualities of being a good wife? Why? because life is a test for all these women, even the happily married one.

 How you conduct yourself when Allah has blessed you with comforts in this world?  how do you behave when you have to live a life deprived of worldly comforts and last but not the least how do you conduct yourself when Allah gives you a thing to enjoy and then takes it away??? Will you do sabr or will you start complaining?  

Being a woman I fully understand the things you said about the first wife getting hurt but this is no valid grounds for divorce and what about the kids? Is she ready to answer to Allah for her part in disturbing the lives of the kids?

1 hour ago, Hassan- said:

The mentality today is different then before, most women today will never accept being a second wife

The mentality is the same as it was 1400 yrs ago, look at some of the wives of RasulAllah (SAW). Go even further back, I am sure you know about the jealously between Sarah and Hajar.

Difficult as it it to accept the husband did nothing wrong in the eyes of Allah( I haven't read anywhere Allah saying that polygamy isn't allowed if it hurts the first wife) then who are we to say he shouldn't do it? 

Edited July 1, 2017 by starlight

[hasanhh]

Can Men Vote?

Do we have non-martial suffer-aging?

[yusur317]

22 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

At the same time, he wants more out of life so he meets a women 

 

I think it very much would depend on the individual: their personality, tolerance and circumstances.

He's not marrying her to support her. He's marrying her for one of two reasons: love or lust. Either of them will definitely hurt his first wife. You can support her like you would your sibling, or a friend. You don't have to marry them.  

I have seen a few women give up so much for their husband. Every time I remember this particular aunty now, I remember this scene I've seen a short while back... 

 

I feel like sometimes, men think women are a total different species? How would a man feel if a wife left him for another man? That's how a woman would most likely feel also.

Personally, I voted divorce. I actually really put thought into this. I don't think my personality would allow me to be with a person who looks at another woman the way he should only look at me. Once I like something, I pour my heart into it. To have him take that and give it to someone else- .  Alhamdulilah, I chose a career stable enough for me to be financially independent. I also come from a very supportive strong family. In the west, I have a real chance of gaining full custody of our children. So circumstances would be in my favour to leave. Unfortunately for other women, their circumstances may force them to remain with their husband. They'd be in the same position as the widowed sister-> with children, in a desperate need for "shelter" and financial stability.  

So really, it depends on the person and their circumstances. 

[yusur317]

1 hour ago, starlight said:

Being a woman I fully understand the things you said about the first wife getting hurt but this is no valid grounds for divorce and what about the kids? Is she ready to answer to Allah for her part in disturbing the lives of the kids?

I think children would be better off in the most stable environment. Either way, whether they stay with the father or leave, there will be issues. So you choose whichever suits your children best. If as a consequence of her husband's choosing a second wife, the mother will suffer mental health problems- she should leave. The disturbance wouldn't come from the wife, but the husband. No finger should be pointing at her. 

Edited July 1, 2017 by yusur317

[Hassan-]

3 hours ago, starlight said:

The mentality is the same as it was 1400 yrs ago, look at some of the wives of RasulAllah (SAW). Go even further back, I am sure you know about the jealously between Sarah and Hajar.

The mentality is absolutely not the same, how can you even say that? Women a thousand years ago were a lot different in maturity and mentality. More widows existed back then compared to now [because wars and battles were so common], women slaves were very common [you could have many slaves at once] and forced marriages was also very common. With all these being so common back than, being a second wife wasn't so bad, it was actually the norm. Women sharing their husband was acceptable. Now in today's society, year 2017, it is absolutely not accepted anymore to the extent where it's illegal in many countries. 

3 hours ago, starlight said:

Difficult as it it to accept the husband did nothing wrong in the eyes of Allah( I haven't read anywhere Allah saying that polygamy isn't allowed if it hurts the first wife) then who are we to say he shouldn't do it? 

Allah (awj) tells you to make the right decisions. If the husband wanted to marry a second wife but knows it will cause a divorce with his first wife and major family problems would occur [which is 90% of the case], than this would be haram for the husband. Just because polygamy is halal it doesn't mean it's always fine to do it, the man has to make the right decisions, the man has to put his family above his own desires. Mut3ah with a prostitute is halal, or allowing your 9 year old daughter to do mut3ah with a stranger is halal too, does that mean it's fine to do it just because it's halal? 

I'm not against polygamy, I'm only against it if it hurts your family.

Edited July 1, 2017 by Hassan-

[starlight]

@yusur317 and @Hassan-  Both of you thinking with emotions, which I understand since both of you are young, you are not parents and haven't experienced the other side of life yet.

2 hours ago, Hassan- said:

Allah (awj) tells you to make the right decisions. If the husband wanted to marry a second wife but knows it will cause a divorce with his first wife and major family problems would occur [which is 90% of the case], than this would be haram for the husband.

 How on the earth did you derive this? You are turning a perfectly halal thing into haram.I wasn't expecting this from you lol. 

2 hours ago, Hassan- said:

Women sharing their husband was acceptable.

Yes, that is why Prophet's wives were creating problems for him at home and Hazrat Sarah asked Hazrat Ibrahim (as) to take Hajar (the slave) and her son away from her. The problems were the same. The one thing that has changed is feminism creeping into the women's minds which tells them if you are making enough money you are a strong independent woman and you don't need him. This reflects in Yusur's posts. 

4 hours ago, yusur317 said:

Alhamdulilah, I chose a career stable enough for me to be financially independent. I also come from a very supportive strong family. In the west, I have a real chance of gaining full custody of our children

Yusur, Alhumdollilah, I make more money than most men, my family is also very supportive and I have full custody of my children and am able to send them to best schools, buy nice things for them without a single penny in financial help from their father. But does that make up for the void left by the absence of a father in their lives?  I can spend all the money but my daughter will never get to see her parents arriving and leaving together and sitting side by side on her school events, she will never have both her parents putting her to bed something which she loved, there would be no holiday pictures with both Mum and Dad, no pulling her parents and little brother in group hugs at random moments of the day. Full custody is not a bed of roses, there are days when I am running a high fever and I still get up in the mornings to help them get dressed, make their breakfast, pack their lunches and drop them off to school. I have sat in the hospital emergency rooms alone wishing there was someone with me. I have struggled managing work and their school meetings sometimes driving 40 km back and forth between work hours just because there was no one else and then there are the questions they ask...

 The other night out of the blue my son asked me, 'Mum, what's a husband?' and I didn't know what to answer, lol. Sometime back in the winter when I was sick I found my daughter crying in bed, when I asked her what's wrong she told me, I feel bad for you, you work all day and take care of everyone but you are lonely there is no one to take care of you.

I am not saying I regret my decision, I made it for very different reasons than this scenario but this is how every divorce effects children. Being a parent I can tell you this, as long as their is no violence and the Mum's not poisoning the children's minds kids are happy as long as they have a stable home with both their parents present in their lives.

2 hours ago, Hassan- said:

I'm not against polygamy, I'm only against it if it hurts your family.

Give me a example you think where it won't hurt the family/first wife.  

Edited July 1, 2017 by starlight

[Laayla]

Bismehe Ta3ala,

Assalam Alikum.

Pain and suffering is a topic we need to discuss and evaluate so we can accept Allah's trials and tribulations He puts in our lives.

Sister @starlight thank you for opening my eyes.  God reward you for all your efforts.  Sub7an'Allah the patience Allah gave you, Insh'Allah, I also get it I pray.

M3 Salamah, FE AMIN Allah

[Abu Hadi]

5 hours ago, Hassan- said:

The mentality is absolutely not the same, how can you even say that? Women a thousand years ago were a lot different in maturity and mentality. More widows existed back then compared to now [because wars and battles were so common], women slaves were very common [you could have many slaves at once] and forced marriages was also very common. With all these being so common back than, being a second wife wasn't so bad, it was actually the norm. Women sharing their husband was acceptable. Now in today's society, year 2017, it is absolutely not accepted anymore to the extent where it's illegal in many countries. 

Allah (awj) tells you to make the right decisions. If the husband wanted to marry a second wife but knows it will cause a divorce with his first wife and major family problems would occur [which is 90% of the case], than this would be haram for the husband. Just because polygamy is halal it doesn't mean it's always fine to do it, the man has to make the right decisions, the man has to put his family above his own desires. Mut3ah with a prostitute is halal, or allowing your 9 year old daughter to do mut3ah with a stranger is halal too, does that mean it's fine to do it just because it's halal? 

I'm not against polygamy, I'm only against it if it hurts your family.

Couple of points here 

1) Mutah with a prostitute is haram. Sayyid Sistani(ha) as well as all other marjaa' that I know of say if a women 'raises the flag' meaning she is known for having sex with men for money, it is haram to marry her. This has been discussed extensively on SC (and I'm not quite sure why this topic is so much discussed because the answer to this should be obvious)

2) Marrying your daughter (9 or any other age) to a man whom you have not investigate his Deen and Aklaq is haram. According to the famous hadith of Imam Bakir(a.s), 'Any man who marries his daughter to a fasiq(one who sins openly) has done Qata' Ar Rahim(severing of the connections of the womb).' 

Edited July 1, 2017 by Abu Hadi

[Abu Hadi]

4 hours ago, starlight said:

@yusur317 and @Hassan-  Both of you thinking with emotions, which I understand since both of you are young, you are not parents and haven't experienced the other side of life yet.

 How on the earth did you derive this? You are turning a perfectly halal thing into haram.I wasn't expecting this from you lol. 

Yes, that is why Prophet's wives were creating problems for him at home and Hazrat Sarah asked Hazrat Ibrahim (as) to take Hajar (the slave) and her son away from her. The problems were the same. The one thing that has changed is feminism creeping into the women's minds which tells them if you are making enough money you are a strong independent woman and you don't need him. This reflects in Yusur's posts. 

Yusur, Alhumdollilah, I make more money than most men, my family is also very supportive and I have full custody of my children and am able to send them to best schools, buy nice things for them without a single penny in financial help from their father. But does that make up for the void left by the absence of a father in their lives?  I can spend all the money but my daughter will never get to see her parents arriving and leaving together and sitting side by side on her school events, she will never have both her parents putting her to bed something which she loved, there would be no holiday pictures with both Mum and Dad, no pulling her parents and little brother in group hugs at random moments of the day. Full custody is not a bed of roses, there are days when I am running a high fever and I still get up in the mornings to help them get dressed, make their breakfast, pack their lunches and drop them off to school. I have sat in the hospital emergency rooms alone wishing there was someone with me. I have struggled managing work and their school meetings sometimes driving 40 km back and forth between work hours just because there was no one else and then there are the questions they ask...

 The other night out of the blue my son asked me, 'Mum, what's a husband?' and I didn't know what to answer, lol. Sometime back in the winter when I was sick I found my daughter crying in bed, when I asked her what's wrong she told me, I feel bad for you, you work all day and take care of everyone but you are lonely there is no one to take care of you.

I am not saying I regret my decision, I made it for very different reasons than this scenario but this is how every divorce effects children. Being a parent I can tell you this, as long as their is no violence and the Mum's not poisoning the children's minds kids are happy as long as they have a stable home with both their parents present in their lives.

Give me a example you think where it won't hurt the family/first wife.  

And the fact that I was a child growing up in the situation (seeing it from the other side), I can tell you 100% that any man or women who is thinking about divorce should think twice, three, four times before putting their children in this situation where in today's world, you are most likely going to deprive your children of both parents (in practical terms).Most of my friends that I knew who were in a similar situation to mine have become criminals, drug addicts, other kinds of addicts, and/or lost their religion completely. This is the most likely outcome, and the unjust economic and other systems set up in the West are designed to pull kids in that direction(that is another discussion). Were it not for the mercy of Allah(s.w.a), I would be in the same situation as most of my friends, and I was definitely headed in that direction before my Shahada. 

At the same time, Allah(s.w.a) always helps those who turn to Him(s.w.a) and try their best to keep their religion intact despite the trials of life. May Allah(s.w.a) help you and your family, sis, to get thru these trials.Salam. 

Edited July 1, 2017 by Abu Hadi

[Soldiers and Saffron]

Interesting discussions, interesting thread.

Just a point: to my knowledge, it is not correct/allowed islamically talking to divorce your husband because he got a second wife. Also, it is not possible to divorce your husband unless you have specified it as a condition in the marriage contract.

[Hassan-]

9 hours ago, starlight said:

@yusur317 and @Hassan-  Both of you thinking with emotions, which I understand since both of you are young, you are not parents and haven't experienced the other side of life yet.

 How on the earth did you derive this? You are turning a perfectly halal thing into haram.I wasn't expecting this from you lol. 

Now you're pulling the 'I'm older than you so I know more than you' card lol. I'm not getting emotional, no emotions from me are happening. How on earth did I derive what? That polygamy could be wrongful act in certain situations? I already told you, not every halal thing can be a good thing, and not every halal thing can be halal in every situation. This is an easy fiqh concept you have to understand. For example cursing is halal and mustahab, but nowadays it's haram by many maraji' if it leads to fitnah, slavery was halal back in the day, now it's haram.. I can give you so many examples. Polygamy is halal and can be a good thing in certain situations, and other situations it can lead to a disaster. If Polygamy causes major fitnah, than the husband should REFRAIN from it.

9 hours ago, starlight said:

Yes, that is why Prophet's wives were creating problems for him at home and Hazrat Sarah asked Hazrat Ibrahim (as) to take Hajar (the slave) and her son away from her. The problems were the same. The one thing that has changed is feminism creeping into the women's minds which tells them if you are making enough money you are a strong independent woman and you don't need him. This reflects in Yusur's posts. 

You're picking certain stories that occurred to help you with your argument, but they don't mean anything. I already gave you three reasons in my other post of why the mentality of women back than are a lot different than now. I'm not sure why you're arguing against this, this should be common knowledge that women and society in general a thousand years ago was completely different. Yes there may be certain situations where women got jealous and turned on their husbands back in the day, but those situations would be far less common back than compared to today.

Like I said before, I think polygamy is a very good thing in certain situations, but not appropriate in other situations. Allah knows best.

Edited July 1, 2017 by Hassan-

[Hassan-]

5 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

Couple of points here 

1) Mutah with a prostitute is haram. Sayyid Sistani(ha) as well as all other marjaa' that I know of say if a women 'raises the flag' meaning she is known for having sex with men for money, it is haram to marry her. This has been discussed extensively on SC (and I'm not quite sure why this topic is so much discussed because the answer to this should be obvious)

2) Marrying your daughter (9 or any other age) to a man whom you have not investigate his Deen and Aklaq is haram. According to the famous hadith of Imam Bakir(a.s), 'Any man who marries his daughter to a fasiq(one who sins openly) has done Qata' Ar Rahim(severing of the connections of the womb).' 

Salam.

1. This is marja' based. Some maraji' allow it. 

2. His deen has to be Muslim yes, but it's not wajib to investigate his akhlaq. If it is show me a ruling from Sayed Sistani that it's wajib to investigate someone's akhlaq before giving him your daughter. The point being here is, you can give your nine year old daughter to a 30 year old muslim who wants to do mutah with her (just for the purpose of sex), and it's completely halal. But is it a right thing to do?

[starlight]

5 minutes ago, Hassan- said:

Polygamy is halal and can be a good thing in certain situations, and other situations it can lead to a disaster.

You stated polygamy would be haram in certain conditions, this isn't a small statement you made. You have said nothing to support this argument because you don't have anything to support it. Bring any narration, any rulings that supports what you said, your opinion doesn't matter. 

I am not using the older card, me,Bro Abu Hadi, Hameedeh, notme, all of us are saying the same thing more or less because we have first hand experienced these things. 

11 minutes ago, Hassan- said:

I think polygamy is a very good thing in certain situations, but not appropriate in other situations.

And I asked you to give me one example in which you think it would be a good thing. It seems you can't up with any. 

It's okay. We can disagree on this.  

[Hassan-]

4 minutes ago, starlight said:

You stated polygamy would be haram in certain conditions, this isn't a small statement you made. You have said nothing to support this argument because you don't have anything to support it. Bring any narration, any rulings that supports what you said, your opinion doesn't matter. 

4 minutes ago, starlight said:

And I asked you to give me one example in which you think it would be a good thing. It seems you can't up with any. 

If the wife does not make a big deal out of it, and accepts it later on. This is rare to happen in today's society.

[starlight]

6 minutes ago, Hassan- said:

If it is show me a ruling from Sayed Sistani that it's wajib to investigate someone's akhlaq before giving him your daughter.

I will show you something better than Sistani's ruligs,hadiths from Masoomeen (as)

Imam Reza (A.S.) wrote in reply to a person who had asked him if it was advisable to marry his daughter to a person known for his ill nature, “If he is ill-natured (bad tempered), don’t marry your daughter to him.”

                                                             --------------------------------------------------------

A man questioned the Prophet of Islam (S), “Whom must we marry?”
He replied, “The suitable (matches).”
“Who are the suitable matches?”
The Prophet (S) responded, “Some of the faithfuls are match for others.” 7
Imam Sadiq (A.S.) said, “An intelligent and wise woman must not be matched except with a sage and wise man.

                                                                 ---------------------------------------------

 

A Muslim, named Hussain Bin Bashar Baseti, wrote a letter with the following content about a person who had asked the hand of his daughter in marriage, to Imam ar-Ridha’ (a.s) and enquired as to what his duty was in the matter:

“... A person from among my relatives, who is ill natured, has asked the hand of my daughter in marriage. What must I do now? Shall I marry my daughter to him or not? What do you say about it?”

Imam wrote in response to his letter:

“If he is ill natured (bad tempered), do not marry your daughter to him.”

                                                      ---------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Hassan-]

On 7/1/2017 at 10:54 AM, starlight said:

I will show you something better than Sistani's ruligs,hadiths from Masoomeen (as)

Imam Reza (A.S.) wrote in reply to a person who had asked him if it was advisable to marry his daughter to a person known for his ill nature, “If he is ill-natured (bad tempered), don’t marry your daughter to him.”

                                                             --------------------------------------------------------

A man questioned the Prophet of Islam (S), “Whom must we marry?”
He replied, “The suitable (matches).”
“Who are the suitable matches?”
The Prophet (S) responded, “Some of the faithfuls are match for others.” 7
Imam Sadiq (A.S.) said, “An intelligent and wise woman must not be matched except with a sage and wise man.

                                                                 ---------------------------------------------

 

A Muslim, named Hussain Bin Bashar Baseti, wrote a letter with the following content about a person who had asked the hand of his daughter in marriage, to Imam ar-Ridha’ (a.s) and enquired as to what his duty was in the matter:

“... A person from among my relatives, who is ill natured, has asked the hand of my daughter in marriage. What must I do now? Shall I marry my daughter to him or not? What do you say about it?”

Imam wrote in response to his letter:

“If he is ill natured (bad tempered), do not marry your daughter to him.”

                                                      ---------------------------------------------------------------

 

Okay fair enough, but my question still stands.

Quote

you can give your nine year old daughter to a 30 year old muslim who wants to do mutah with her (just for the purpose of sex), and it's completely halal. But is it a right thing to do?

[starlight]

@Hassan-  I am presuming the 9 yr old is a virgin. According to scholars mutah with virgin is socially unrecommended.

You might want to give this a read 

https://www.al-islam.org/youth-and-spouse-selection-ali-akbar-mazaheri/chapter-five-criteria-spouse-selection

Equality in Age

A balance and equity of ages must also be considered in the selection of a spouse. The difference in the age of sexual puberty in males and females is a natural phenomenon. Boys generally attain puberty four years after the girls.

The equity and matching of the ages of the boys and the girl relates to the difference of age, not the uniformity of it, since this difference has been placed in their creation. Of course, observing a difference of four years in age is not obligatory; instead, it is better if it is there. This quality should be added to the total sum of attributes for consideration and contemplation. It is possible that the age of the girl is not less than the boy (to this extent), but she may have other peculiarities and distinctions to compensate for the shortage.

[Hassan-]

2 minutes ago, starlight said:

I am presuming the 9 yr old is a virgin. According to scholars mutah with virgin is socially unrecommended.

Exactly, you just answered my question from the beginning. It is still halal but it's not recommended. Not every halal thing is a good thing.

Now I will ask you a question:

1. If the husband is 100% certain that if he marries another women, major fitnah will happen, his first wife will divorce him and the kids will be separated from him. Is it permissible for the husband to marry another women in this situation, yes or no?

[starlight]

1 hour ago, Hassan- said:

Exactly, you just answered my question from the beginning. It is still halal but it's not recommended. Not every halal thing is a good thing.

Now I will ask you a question:

1. If the husband is 100% certain that if he marries another women, major fitnah will happen, his first wife will divorce him and the kids will be separated from him. Is it permissible for the husband to marry another women in this situation, yes or no?

Hassan brother, for the last time, you said it's haram. You have been unable to prove that so far. I am not going to engage in a pointless banter here just because you don't like something that Islam allows. It's completely fine with me if you don't but that doesn't make it wrong. 

As another member has pointed out husband's remarriage is not valid grounds for divorce. If the woman still wants to raise a storm, get her family pitted against the husband, use the kids as pawns, threaten to set herself on fire,threaten divorce, bad mouth him in the community, demonstrate her jealously and lack of faith, in other words create a fitnah she will be answerable for her actions more so if the husband had a perfectly good reason to remarry, a couple of which I have mentioned below. 

I am not recommending husbands take on a second wife without good reason (wife not able to bear children, denying conjugal rights etc) but if he does that and does not try to treat them justly he will be answerable. 

Too many people forget that this duniya is transitory, we have not been sent here to enjoy the pleasures of this world. This is a test we are taking. 

Have a nice day. 

[Hassan-]

17 minutes ago, starlight said:

Hassan brother, for the last time, you said it's haram. You have been unable to prove that so far. I am not going to engage in a pointless banter here just because you don't like something that Islam allows. It's completely fine with me if you don't but that doesn't make it wrong. 

As another member has pointed out husband's remarriage is not valid grounds for divorce. If the woman still wants to raise a storm, get her family pitted against the husband, use the kids as pawns, threaten to set herself on fire,threaten divorce, bad mouth him in the community, demonstrate her jealously and lack of faith, in other words create a fitnah she will be answerable for her actions more so if the husband had a perfectly good reason to remarry, a couple of which I have mentioned below. 

I am not recommending husbands take on a second wife without good reason (wife not able to bear children, denying conjugal rights etc) but if he does that and does not try to treat them justly he will be answerable. 

Too many people forget that this duniya is transitory, we have not been sent here to enjoy the pleasures of this world. This is a test we are taking. 

Have a nice day. 

I showed you the picture above, read it. And let's say it's not haram, is it a good act to do? You just wont admit that in certain situations polygamy is not good. You already admitted that giving your 9 year old virgin daughter for mut3ah is halal but not recommended, why wont you admit it for polygamy too? I know that a divorce is not a valid excuse, I know the wife is accountable if she caused fitnah because of it, but all this can be prevented by the husband if he refrains from it. Sometimes refraining from doing something halal can prevent many harams being done, like cursing for example, it's halal and mustahab but if you refrain from it you are preventing fitnah from occurring. Same thing applies to second marriages. now I'll ask you this question again, If the husband is 100% certain that if he marries another women, major fitnah will happen, his first wife will divorce him and the kids will be separated from him, is it recommended for the husband to refrain from a second marriage, yes or no?

[yusur317]

12 hours ago, starlight said:

Yusur, Alhumdollilah, I make more money than most men, my family is also very supportive and I have full custody of my children and am able to send them to best schools, buy nice things for them without a single penny in financial help from their father. But does that make up for the void left by the absence of a father in their lives?  I can spend all the money but my daughter will never get to see her parents arriving and leaving together and sitting side by side on her school events, she will never have both her parents putting her to bed something which she loved, there would be no holiday pictures with both Mum and Dad, no pulling her parents and little brother in group hugs at random moments of the day. Full custody is not a bed of roses, there are days when I am running a high fever and I still get up in the mornings to help them get dressed, make their breakfast, pack their lunches and drop them off to school. I have sat in the hospital emergency rooms alone wishing there was someone with me. I have struggled managing work and their school meetings sometimes driving 40 km back and forth between work hours just because there was no one else and then there are the questions they ask...

 The other night out of the blue my son asked me, 'Mum, what's a husband?' and I didn't know what to answer, lol. Sometime back in the winter when I was sick I found my daughter crying in bed, when I asked her what's wrong she told me, I feel bad for you, you work all day and take care of everyone but you are lonely there is no one to take care of you.

I am not saying I regret my decision, I made it for very different reasons than this scenario but this is how every divorce effects children. Being a parent I can tell you this, as long as their is no violence and the Mum's not poisoning the children's minds kids are happy as long as they have a stable home with both their parents present in their lives.

Give me a example you think where it won't hurt the family/first wife.  

It would depend on the circumstances. I think for me personally, I would resent my husband. I would probably be so hurt, without realising it, I'd make his life (and so my life and that of my children) a living hell. It's unfair to put the woman here under the microscope when the husband is a sitting elephant. In the scenario abu hadi presented, the woman wholly expressed her opposition and rejection of the idea. The husband was selfish and greedy; he put his needs before the stability and happiness of his family. What's worse, it's all under the false banner of charity. God didn't forbid slavery, but I doubt a slave is as happy as a free man. Not everything that was made lawful is necessarily "good" or appropriate. Point is, he put himself first. I couldn't forgive that. If we were in Mosul under ISIS, and unmarried women were subjected to their jihad al-nikah fatwa, I'd tell him not to marry one, but three! But of course, there'd be a criteria, e.g. don't take advantage of the poor virgin, it's only temporary etc. 

I am not sure if we're all assuming that married couples who stay together are problem free? I have never seen a single home without problems. If you haven't been punched, a slap is the most painful thing you can imagine. It's all about choosing what's best and trying to improve the situation as much as possible. So again, I'd say it depends on the circumstance and the person. Myself, as I am now, I'd leave.

But you're right, I may still be emotionally immature. Who I was or how I felt 5 years ago differs from today. Who knows how I'll feel in 5-20 years.