Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله
sidnaq

Can anyone refute or explain this?

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

30 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

 

- yes for you praying to others than Allah isn't infringing on Tawheed Mr. Islam.

- or claiming that Imams have taken charge of everything isn't either. 

 

in the quran there are people described to do shirq claiming it is for the sake of their God. So it is possible to think there is only on God, and still worship other gods without officially doing so:

 

و يعبدون من دون الله ما لا يضرهم و لا ينفعهم و يقولون هؤلاء شفعاؤنا عند الله قل أتنبئون الله بما لا يعلم في السماوات و لا في الأرض سبحانه و تعالى عما يشركون

 

And they worship other than Allah that which neither harms them nor benefits them, and they say, "These are our intercessors (bringers of shifa'a) with Allah " Say, "Do you inform Allah of something He does not know in the heavens or on the earth?" Exalted is He and high above what they associate with Him 10:18

 

The Quran and sunnah is clear about praying only to Allah and Allah has no partners in His heavens and earth.

Where did I said there is anybody who is partner of Allah. Why you accuse baseless acquisitions. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, First Responder said:

Brother, there is a difference between worshiping Imams and doing ghuloo. Sunnis on the other hand.....let's not even open that file.

I do accept some might be doing Ghlu or so.But there is nothing like that Shia worship imams. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, islam25 said:

Where did I said there is anybody who is partner of Allah. Why you accuse baseless acquisitions. 

aren't you saying that the imams are aware of everything (making them partners), and that they are in charge of everything (making them partners), and that we can pray to them for help?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

aren't you saying that the imams are aware of everything (making them partners), and that they are in charge of everything (making them partners), and that we can pray to them for help?

Non of all Shia belive it.

Even if it is true that imams have extraordinary knowledge given by Allah. How does it compromise Tawheed. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, islam25 said:

Non of all Shia belive it.

Even if it is true that imams have extraordinary knowledge given by Allah. How does it compromise Tawheed. 

 

the topic here is that video on the first post.

1 -The main issue is making prayers to others than Allah for help,

2 - and also claiming that others than Allah control and are aware of everything. Nobody claims that Allah didn't give his chosen servants special privileges that are very limited. 

The above points are believed by many 'shias', making it a major problem for the rest, as we are labeled as mushriqs because of it.

3 - another point is the blood fest of self mutilation and flagellation, that is another issue causing great disaster to the reputation of shias.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, 313 Seeker said:

the topic here is that video on the first post.

1 -The main issue is making prayers to others than Allah for help,

2 - and also claiming that others than Allah control and are aware of everything. Nobody claims that Allah didn't give his chosen servants special privileges that are very limited. 

The above points are believed by many 'shias', making it a major problem for the rest, as we are labeled as mushriqs because of it.

3 - another point is the blood fest of self mutilation and flagellation, that is another issue causing great disaster to the reputation of shias.

Yes. Slef falgellation is true. 

But worshiping  other than Allah is false acquisition. 

And Ambias and imams and Awlias having extraordinary knowledge and power doesn't compromisTawheed. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

ok to you praying to the imams isnt worship. to most muslims it is. 

you've got a different way than me. to me it is shirq 

Yes it is open shrik. 

Were did I deny it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, First Responder said:

What does that have to do with what you said earlier and now? Again you are not bringing me Quranic verses you are bringing me Translation from A person you don't even name..

It has to do with it everything. It seems that i need to explain to you for such a simplistic self evident verse. Do you agree that everything good what we get is from Allah (Q, 4:79)? If yes, then every mercy the person gives to another person  is good, thus we say it is Allah who gave that mercy to the person A to person B and etc, because every goodness comes from Allah. This means the God goodness is manifested through them. 

When I look at the Prophet Muhammad, I can witness that truly God manifest His mercy through him. Do you even agree with this? At same time we don't say Prophet Is The Merciful.

No one shares absolute God names or attributes. Prophet Muhammad is not The Merciful. But He is mercy. And His mercy is from Allah. And Allah names are simply indicators to Him and the names are description of His Essence and His essence is distinct from creations.

Quote

 I can strongly and firmly confirm that you DO believe in the names/attributes of Allah subhanah wa ta3ala manifesting into people. I believe it is time to end this. Ponder upon this verse.

You should be very careful of what you are saying about other beliefs, because if you are wrong, you will be in responsible of it.

Quote

Second of all Someone wrote that the NAMES of Allah (You are adding attributes) can manifest through people. Shirk. Actually let me ask you a question...do prophets, especially Wali Al Azm prophets (Moses a.s., Jesus a.s....) manifest the names and attributes of God perfection like you stated? (Yes) or (No)? 

I will show you a verse and Imam tafsir of it, and if you understand it correctly, then we are in same page:

 

وَرَ‌سُولًا إِلَىٰ بَنِي إِسْرَ‌ائِيلَ أَنِّي قَدْ جِئْتُكُم بِآيَةٍ مِّن رَّ‌بِّكُمْ ۖ أَنِّي أَخْلُقُ لَكُم مِّنَ الطِّينِ كَهَيْئَةِ الطَّيْرِ‌ فَأَنفُخُ فِيهِ فَيَكُونُ طَيْرً‌ا بِإِذْنِ اللَّـهِ ۖ وَأُبْرِ‌ئُ الْأَكْمَهَ وَالْأَبْرَ‌صَ وَأُحْيِي الْمَوْتَىٰ بِإِذْنِ اللَّـهِ ۖ وَأُنَبِّئُكُم بِمَا تَأْكُلُونَ وَمَا تَدَّخِرُ‌ونَ فِي بُيُوتِكُمْ ۚ إِنَّ فِي ذَٰلِكَ لَآيَةً لَّكُمْ إِن كُنتُم مُّؤْمِنِينَ

 

to be a Messenger to the Children of Israel saying, "I have come to you with a sign from your Lord. I will create for you out of clay as the likeness of a bird; then I will breathe into it, and it will be a bird, by the leave of God. I will also heal the blind and the leper, and bring to life the dead, by the leave of God. I will inform you too of what things you eat, and what you treasure up in your houses. Surely in that is a sign for you, if you are believers. (3:49)

 

The Tafsir of this that has reached us from the Ahl al-Bayt عليهم السلام is:

 

في التوحيد عن الرضا عليه السلام إنه سئل وغير الخالق الجليل خالق قال إن الله تبارك وتعالى قال تبارك الله أحسن الخالقين وقد أخبر أن في عباده خالقين وغير خالقين منهم عيسى بن مريم خلق من الطين كهيئة الطير بإذن الله والسامري خلق لهم عجلا جسدا له خوار

 

In al-Tawhid, from al-Ridha عليه السلام that he was asked, and other than the Sublime Creator created? He (al-Ridha) said that Allah تبارك وتعالى said: Blessed be Allah, the best of the creators and he had informed us that from his servants are creators and non-creators. From them, 'Isa bin Maryam created from clay, the likeness of a bird, by the will of Allah, and al-Samiri created for them a calf who's body bellowed.

al-Kashani, Tafsir al-Safi (3:49)

--- 

When Isa ibn Maryam created by the Will of Allah, It means Allah manifested His power of Creator trough Isa ibn Maryam. It does not mean Isa suddenly is The Creator.

Quote

ألاعراف 180

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

وَلِلَّـهِ الْأَسْمَاءُ الْحُسْنَىٰ فَادْعُوهُ بِهَا ۖ وَذَرُوا الَّذِينَ يُلْحِدُونَ فِي أَسْمَائِهِ ۚ سَيُجْزَوْنَ مَا كَانُوا يَعْمَلُونَ

صدق الله العلي العظيم

No one share these names expect Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì, because His names are simply indicators to Him. 

Edited by Dhulfikar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, First Responder said:

You don't get it *shakes head*...If someone said Ahlul bayt MEASURE rizq are cursed by Imam Sadiq a.s. himself, what do you think about those who say they DISTRIBUTE rizq which is WORSE?

Dont try to assume anything on behalf of Imam, please. I have highlighted the word "taqderoona" in that hadith & presented before you a verse of Quran having the same root word "inna kulla shayen khalaqnahu beqadar".

The word "distribution" is not present in your quoted hadith.

Now lets see a hadith containing the same word:

عدة من أصحابنا، عن أحمد بن محمد، عن علي بن الحكم، عن مثنى الحناط عن أبي بصير قال: دخلت على أبي جعفر عليه السلام فقلت له: أنتم ورثة رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله؟ قال: نعم، قلت: رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله وارث الأنبياء، علم كما علموا؟ قال لي: نعم، قلت: فأنتم تقدرون على أن تحيوا الموتى وتبرؤا الأكمه والأبرص؟ قال: نعم بإذن الله، ثم قال لي: ادن مني يا أبا محمد فدنوت منه فمسح على وجهي وعلى عيني فأبصرت الشمس والسماء والأرض والبيوت وكل شئ في البلد ثم قال لي: أتحب أن تكون هكذا ولك ما للناس وعليك ما عليهم يوم القيامة أو تعود كما كنت ولك الجنة خالصا؟ قالت: أعود كما كنت، فمسح على عيني فعدت كما كنت، قال: فحدثت ابن أبي عمير بهذا، فقال أشهد أن هذا حق كما أن النهار حق

 Translating the part I highlighted red: I (Abi Basir who is narrating the Hadith) said: "So you have decree (or power) over giving life to the dead, and curing the blind and lepers?" He (Imam Abi Ja'far Muhammad Al-Baqir (as)) said: "Yes, by the permission of Allah,"

This is found in Al-Kafi volume 1 page 470 hadith 3

Allama Majlisi called it's chain Hasan (Good) in Mir'at Al-Uqul volume 6 page 20

(Note: hadith taken from referred threads by brother Dhulfikar)

Now lets see verses of chapter Al-kahaf:

Surah Al-Kahf, Verse 79:

أَمَّا السَّفِينَةُ فَكَانَتْ لِمَسَاكِينَ يَعْمَلُونَ فِي الْبَحْرِ فَأَرَدتُّ أَنْ أَعِيبَهَا وَكَانَ وَرَاءَهُم مَّلِكٌ يَأْخُذُ كُلَّ سَفِينَةٍ غَصْبًا

As for the boat, it belonged to (some) poor men who worked on the river and I wished that I should damage it, and there was behind them a king who seized every boat by force.

(English - Shakir)

Surah Al-Kahf, Verse 82:

وَأَمَّا الْجِدَارُ فَكَانَ لِغُلَامَيْنِ يَتِيمَيْنِ فِي الْمَدِينَةِ وَكَانَ تَحْتَهُ كَنزٌ لَّهُمَا وَكَانَ أَبُوهُمَا صَالِحًا فَأَرَادَ رَبُّكَ أَن يَبْلُغَا أَشُدَّهُمَا وَيَسْتَخْرِجَا كَنزَهُمَا رَحْمَةً مِّن رَّبِّكَ وَمَا فَعَلْتُهُ عَنْ أَمْرِي ذَٰلِكَ تَأْوِيلُ مَا لَمْ تَسْطِع عَّلَيْهِ صَبْرًا

And as for the wall, it belonged to two orphan boys in the city, and there was beneath it a treasure belonging to them, and their father was a righteous man; so your Lord desired that they should attain their maturity and take out their treasure, a mercy from your Lord, and I did not do it of my own accord. This is the significance of that with which you could not have patience.

(English - Shakir)

What is this? A sevant of Allah doing "tadbeer" for protecting the means of sustenance of poor men by damaging the boat & doind tadbeer for protecting the treasure of orphan boys.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, islam25 said:

Brother question is not statement. Question is what is in heart. Giving independence to Angle of death makes problem. It is Allah made Angle to cause death. Angle by himself can do nothing. 

It was said "be-ithnillah" by me. Why you feel the need to remind me the shirk?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To all the learned members who are discussing on this thread, few are accusing shia of worshiping Imam and while few others accused for ghlu. I am not here to either explain or prove anything to anyone. All of us are having brain and Allah has provided us this great gift so that we can reach our destination using this. 

It is well known fact that Allah ordered angels to prostrate in front of Adam as. 

My question to all of you who are opposing shia intercession with Imam is simple-

Kindly define the prostration of angels in front Adam as. Plz let us all know whether that was shirk, kufr, ghlu or Iman?

Anyone who will get the answer of this question using mind will be able to understand true meaning of Imamat and its place in shia Islam.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/26/2017 at 4:25 AM, 313 Seeker said:

Let us see what people say to the following video that i have posted before and got no comment for. Here are people who call the shrine on a telephone to ask the imam reza for help. These practices are purely praying to others than Allah to me, and i don't see any tradition of ahlul bayt or quran or prophetic teachings in this. Just purely human pitfalls that come again and again through history. Please, anybody tell me what you think of the following hotline to imam reza for praying to him:

 

 

This is called online waseela. No need to personally go to shrine and to spent hundreds of dollars just call and talk to Imam on hotline for you needs. Such practises are disgust for shias. But unfortunately many tv channels are involved in this and are providing this service to people all over the world.

Brother following video is of Karbala satelite channel, who is also doing the same. In fact much better than what you shared.

 

Watch this, how dangerous this waseela concept has become.

Edited by Ya Allah Madad

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

because of these practices that so many shias do and endorse, i hesitate and feel shame when referring to myself as shia in sunni countries. As most all sunnis are aware of this, and i feel that i always need to explain "i am shia, but i don't self flagellate or cut my babies foreheads, and i don't pray to others than Allah" Most non-shias think that all shias do this, much like many if not most non-muslims think that all muslims are terrorists! Being referred to as muslim is not much better these days!

You are right brother. Such things have ruined the shia image all over the world. Whether someone like it or not and whether someone practise it or not, this is how the world sees shias in general.

 

And if you search shia muslims on google you will find this https://www.google.com/search?q=shia+muslim&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwic45XBxODUAhUDT48KHdlaAXAQ_AUIBigB&biw=1366&bih=632#tbm=isch&q=shia+muslims

 

Many shia scholars are also responsible for this. They are the backbone of such people who practise and defend such beliefs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

Imam can control the universe, can distribute the rizq, can give life, can give death, can bring back the setting sun, can shaqq the moon etc. By the ithn of Allah. 

Do you have any objection in that?

Imam Ali Reza a.s have big objection. Source: Bihar-ul-Anwar vol-25/343. http://dlia.ir/kotob/arabic/531/beharo_al_anvar_025/index.html
 

Prayer of Imam Ali reza a.s

Bismillah ir-Rahman ir-Rahim.

O Allah, verily, i disassociate myself before you from the strength and power. There is no strength and power except with you. O Allah, verily, i seek refuge in you and disaasociate myself before you from those who claim for us what is not true for us. O Allah, verily i disassociate myself before you from those who say regarding us what we have not said about ourselves.

O Allah, to you belong the creation and from you is the provision. You do we worship and from You we do seek help.

O Allah, You are our creator and the creator of our first fathers and our last fathers. O Allah, lordship is not suitable except with you. and Divinity befits non except for You.

O Allah, verily we are your slaves and sons of your slaves. We have no power over ourselves in respect of benefit or harm, nor death, life or resurrection.

O Allah, whoever claims that we are lords, then we are free from him, whoever claims that to us is the power of creation and providing sustenance, then we are free from him. We are free from him like Issa is free from the christians.

O Allah, we have never called them to what they claim, so do not take us into account fro what they say and forgive us for they claim.

My Lord do not leave upon the earth from them an inhabitant, indeed if you leave them they will mislead your servants and not beget except wicked one and disbeliever.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Ya Allah Madad said:

Such things have ruined the shia image all over the world. Whether someone like it or not and whether someone practise it or not, this is how the world sees shias in general.

and the typical reaction of the layman shia is to defend these practices even if they don't believe in them. Usually they attack the person who makes these claims and like to sweep the whole thing under the rug.

It is obvious that enemies of shia Islam will use the weaknesses of shias against them. It does not change the reality of the matter, that those weaknesses are weaknesses. And very shameful ones. I have to practice taqya mostly because of the shias wrong practices and not because of the sunnis. And it's the same look i get from pretty much every non-muslim when they find out that i am muslim. It's as if i can read their minds saying: "oh so you believe it's ok to have sex with 9 year old girls?!?!", but they are not saying it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Ya Allah Madad said:

You are right brother. Such things have ruined the shia image all over the world. Whether someone like it or not and whether someone practise it or not, this is how the world sees shias in general.

 

And if you search shia muslims on google you will find this https://www.google.com/search?q=shia+muslim&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwic45XBxODUAhUDT48KHdlaAXAQ_AUIBigB&biw=1366&bih=632#tbm=isch&q=shia+muslims

 

 

the trick played by iblis and his army here is - if we look at the bigger picture of things - that the enemies of ahlulbayt are given info by their masters about the weaknesses of the shia sects. Iblis can not touch us unless we do wrong first. So they trick is that the salafi wahabi yazid army brigades rub in those weaknesses, which rubs the peoples egos and false pride more than anything. Suddenly the thing becomes more of honor rather than truth. Like a tribal pride, and people will reject the truth because it comes from people who are bad. But fact is that bad people can say truths. So, in this way iblis came up with the ingenious plan of keeping shias away from the truth by rubbing it in their own faces. People will avoid surrendering to the truth, because Salafi said so. Just look at this thread. People even refuse to address the matter because the video was made by salafis. But the problem is that the issue in the video is actual footage of shias. It was Imam Ali who is said to have said: "don't look at who said something, but rather what is said."

In this way by way of pride and hate, the shias are kept away from admitting their own problems. It is smart and cunning i must say. Keep them from doing what is right, by pointing it out to them in an annoying way. After so many years of deception iblis must have learned something!

I wrote a poem years ago trying to communicate this to people:

It is satirical and an artistic rendition of a conversation between iblis and mohamed abdulwahab:

Quote

Here is a conversation i imagine happened with the likes of Mohamed Abdel Wahab (MAW) and the Devil:

 

 

 

MAW: at your service devil, you know i'm your man pretending to be among the Muslims

 

Devil: yes you are a great service to me, and here i will reward you with women, money, power and all worldly needs you can imagine.

 

 

MAW: tell me your plan.

 

Devil: well, our enemies are your enemies, who are the muslims of course, as well as christians and jews, but let us focus on the muslims for now. that is your task, destroy islam from inside.

 

MAW: tell me more ..

 

Devil: i want you to follow exactly what i say, step by step so the plan comes true. don't worry about the muslims, most of them are stupid and the smart ones are few.

 

MAW: yes! yes! hurry, please tell me .. 

 

Devil: You come from a scholarly family, with a father of good repute and we shall use this to pretend like you are continuing on his pious path, while you are actually the opposite from the core. you will cause the islamic nation to rot from its core, so i will control the world more than ever before. and your descendants will benefit from this too.

 

MAW: wow that is amazing, thank you dear lord of darkness .. am at your service.

 

Devil: yes, listen closely .. i have no power to harm anybody, except when they harm themselves first, so you need not have a bad conscience! they deserve it!!! 

 

MAW: yes master, please continue .. you got me excited now.

 

Devil: well, their weakness is our strength, and so we will have an ingenious plan that almost nobody will every think of heheheheheheh  :shaytan:

 

MAW: tell me more!! i hate patience!!! i want it now!!! kill those muslims . i hate them!! i hate them i hate the prophet!!! and their god!!

 

Devil: yes yes .. my son .. so listen up .. as i told you their weaknesses are our strength and so who would know the weaknesses more than me?

 

MAW: yes i know you know it all .. 

 

Devil: yes of course you fool! i'm the one who whispered to them their mistakes, that they are following blindly .. soon you will have the muslims moving me from the stoning area in makkah and put me up on the mount arafa !!! 

 

 

MAW: really??

 

Devil: yes!! and already the people started calling upon all kinds people, other than Allah, so you will feed on this my friend!

 

MAW: really? how??

 

Devil: well, i will share with you the plan now ..

 

MAW: yes please go on .. let me sacrifice another human for you .. 

 

Devil: later son! later .. now listen to me ..

 

MAW: ok sir .. thank you 

 

Devil: so, you will make a new movement, and this movement will carry your name. while it is islamic on the outside, it is satanic from the inside .. it belongs to me and aims towards pulling the muslims towards me, and even all non- muslims away from Islam.

 

MAW: yes that is what we want!

 

Devil: so i will list you all mistakes and weaknesses the people who call themselves muslims perform, and all false traditions, that will be doors to conquering them. so you clothe your movement with those fundamental righteous teachings, that they miss, which will cause most people to follow you.

 

MAW: what a plan! you're a jinneus !! 

 

Devil: yup, that's what i am!

 

MAW: but how will this work? if they see us preaching the things that are wrong in their teachings, wont it give it all away? isn't that us showing what our secret weapons are?

 

Devil: no! quite the opposite. you will see that all of mankind suffers from pride issues. i control them this way. Our soldiers in your army and family will be so cruel and so ruthless, that actually hearing the truth from us, will make them go further away! 

 

 

MAW: you truly are a genius .. here let me do anything for you .. anything to please you ..

 

Devil: you will get the chance to please me .. just listen to me .. so as you continue down that path of putting the truth that they deviated in, in their face .. they go further away from it. they will reject the truth, because it comes from you. While those who see the truth in your teachings .. given by me .. will be drawn to your army and your control. very few will see through our plan and understand that even though we are right about some things, that our intentions are so bad HAHAHAHAHAHAH  :shaytan:  HAHAHAHAHAHHA !!! 

 

 

MAW:  :excl:  that is truly amazing dear master. thank you . thank you .. how can i thank you enough!

 

Devil: this world will be mine! i will soon control the entire arab peninsula through you and your family, so you can imagine how much i shall reward you. your family will have more money than you can spend! more gold than all camels can carry! more women and little boys for you to feast on .. you know how i love it when you sleep with little boys 

 

 

MAW: yes dear master .. it is a tradition we kept for you, as a sacrifice for you our lord ..

 

Devil: so this is just a taste of the plan, and how we shall proceed to use their weaknesses to our own benefit, and take ownership of their lost truth, and prevent anybody from getting it. this way we can assault them from all direction and they will have no helpers HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA  :shaytan:

 

 

MAW: yes amazing dear master .. amazing ! i am speechless  :cry:

 

Devil: yes my humble servant, and i will strengthen you with servants from all over the world, whom i have tutored in the exact same way. my christian priests, and jewish rabbis, who use the weaknesses of the people in the same way. and together you will take over the WORRLLLDDD!!!!

 

 

MAW: oooooh !! that warms my happiness .. here a drink to you dear devil .. gulp gulp gulp gulp .. oh how i love this buzz while talking to you  :wacko:

 

Devil: yes i will send you more wine and liquor than you can drink, don't worry about that!! and soon you will go on a killing rampage to slaughter all those muslim people as you please .. while using their religion as an excuse!

 

 

MAW: oh i can't wait!

 

Devil: yes! now go sleep and make sure to beat your wife, and treat your slaves badly .. and ... (sensored)

 

 

MAW: yes sayidi .. at your service .. i look forwards to more detailed protocols soon ..

 

Devil: yes, now get out of my face!

 

source

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...